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Comments on news posted 2008-09-24 16:10:17: The FCC made Wilmington, North Carolina their Guinea pig ahead of February's digital TV transition, with area broadcasters cutting analog transmissions on September 9. ..

page: 1 · 2

dirtwarrior

join:2008-03-21

simply

A nightmare. rural places lol

MeanPeepsSuk
Premium
join:2004-11-21
Muddy Field

Re: simply

said by dirtwarrior:

A nightmare. rural places lol
Let me clarify to you what "rural places", or "rural fringe areas" (according to the FCC) are. ... Hunterdon County, NJ (which is cited in the article) happens to be just ~40 miles from New York City and Philadelphia.


voipdabbler

join:2006-04-27
Kalispell, MT
Don't laugh. Recent non-decinnial Census data (yes, they keep the shop open all the time and use commercial databases to produce interim reports on population trends, including migration, between the decinnial head counts) reflects that certain areas of the urban east coast are beginning to lose population while the rural west is seeing it's population increase. As inflation skyrockets, don't be surprised if the few jobs that remain in the US relocate to less expensive, non-urban areas.

fAcEtIOUs
Premium
join:2002-03-03
kudos:4

2 edits

Hawaii Senator panics over DTV conversion

»news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-100···1_3-0-20
At a hearing on the impending DTV transition Tuesday, Senator Daniel Inouye, chairman of the Commerce Committee, warned that the loss of analog over-the-air TV reception, occurring just 29 days into a new presidential administration, might spell trouble for a country already beset by the financial crisis.

"While federal agencies and industry have stepped up their efforts, I continue to be concerned that they are not fully prepared for the flood of coupon requests and calls that we can expect just before and after the transition," said the senator, a Democrat from Hawaii. "As the current administration winds down, both agencies must remain vigilant so that the next administration does not inherit a communications crisis."

Referring to test of the DTV switchover conducted two weeks ago, Inouye wasn't encouraged. "As the recent test in Wilmington, North Carolina, demonstrated, even with a Herculean investment of time and resources that will be impossible to replicate throughout the rest of the country, consumers made thousands of phone calls seeking help with various aspects of the transition. On a national level, this may translate to millions of calls. Unless more is done, February 17, and 18, and 19, will be very long days indeed."

FCC Chairman Dennis Martin, conversely, found some encouraging signs in the recent Wilmington test but agreed with Inouye that additional funding for education about the transition was still needed, calling for another $20 million.
Martin statement to Committee:
»hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/a···89A1.pdf

Summary of calls by type of problem in the Wilmington test:
FCC_WILM_TEST.PDF 27763 bytes


FCC report on DTV conversion:
»hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/a···89A2.pdf

The FCC report lays out lots of details on how many stations are yet to declare readiness and on the subject of analog vs digital coverage.

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SilverSurfer1

join:2007-08-19

Rural General Suckitude

I don't know which is worse in rural areas...the fact that the phone lines are and have always been for shit, or, the fact that you can't even use good ol' rabbit ears to pick up any TV signals anymore.

jmn1207
Premium
join:2000-07-19
Ashburn, VA

Re: Rural General Suckitude

said by SilverSurfer1:

I don't know which is worse in rural areas...the fact that the phone lines are and have always been for shit, or, the fact that you can't even use good ol' rabbit ears to pick up any TV signals anymore.
Why can't you use rabbit ears? I can pick up digital stations using a wire coat hanger with no degradation in quality. It's digital, so you either get it or you don't. It's not like the analog signals that would vary in quality depending on the strength. Rabbit ears will work just fine.

fAcEtIOUs
Premium
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1 edit

Re: Rural General Suckitude

said by jmn1207:

said by SilverSurfer1:

I don't know which is worse in rural areas...the fact that the phone lines are and have always been for shit, or, the fact that you can't even use good ol' rabbit ears to pick up any TV signals anymore.
Why can't you use rabbit ears? I can pick up digital stations using a wire coat hanger with no degradation in quality. It's digital, so you either get it or you don't. It's not like the analog signals that would vary in quality depending on the strength. Rabbit ears will work just fine.
The issue is that the digital signal has a sharp cutoff where you either get the signal or not. The analog signal would degrade over distance but still provide a viewable channel, even if the quality sucked.

This map of the coverage in the Wilmington test shows how the analog transmission had a farther reach. The digital coverage was helped by overlapping digital signals from nearby affiliate stations on the same network. But the area in orange basically lost all NBC coverage in the switch.
»hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/a···89A4.pdf



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jmn1207
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2 edits

Re: Rural General Suckitude

And here I thought the FCC had conducted tests to ensure that the coverage would not be diminished when the switch to digital was made.

I wonder how this will impact satellite TV and local channel distribution. In areas where local networks were not included with DirectTV or Dish, you had to live outside the range of the local analog signal's reach to be eligible to get generic network broadcasts piped to your satellite receiver. I suppose the distance requirements will have to be adjusted accordingly.

fAcEtIOUs
Premium
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Re: Rural General Suckitude

said by jmn1207:

And here I thought the FCC had conducted tests to ensure that the coverage would not be diminished when the switch to digital was made.
And I wouldn't be surprised if the FCC also allowed adjustments in transmitted power so that the digital stations get a further reach(similar to the analog coverage) in order to cover areas like those on the map in orange.
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jmn1207
Premium
join:2000-07-19
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Re: Rural General Suckitude

said by fAcEtIOUs:

said by jmn1207:

And here I thought the FCC had conducted tests to ensure that the coverage would not be diminished when the switch to digital was made.
And I wouldn't be surprised if the FCC also allowed adjustments in transmitted power so that the digital stations get a further reach(similar to the analog coverage) in order to cover areas like those on the map in orange.
Hopefully there won't be any situations that might cause one signal to bleed over the top of another. If that is even possible with this type of signal. I know with my radio stations I can make a mix of Mexican Radio meets Contemporary Jazz. This occurs late in the evening and I call this music style, Contexican Jazzio.

Morac

join:2001-08-30
Riverside, NJ
kudos:1
Reviews:
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said by fAcEtIOUs:

And I wouldn't be surprised if the FCC also allowed adjustments in transmitted power so that the digital stations get a further reach(similar to the analog coverage) in order to cover areas like those on the map in orange.
If I recall correctly, many stations whose frequency lies within the VHF range will actually be broadcasting with less power to prevent interference with FM stations. Plus they don't pass through physical objects (walls for example) as well as UHF frequencies.

Many of those stations are currently broadcasting in the UHF frequency range, but will switch to VHF after Feb 17, 2009.

For example Philadelphia's KWY-DT (CBS) is currently broadcasting on a UHF frequency (don't have it in front of me at the moment), but will switch to channel 3 after the switchover. That means people who can receive the channel now, might not be able to get it after the transition.

See »www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthre···t=823166

fAcEtIOUs
Premium
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1 edit

Re: Rural General Suckitude

said by Morac:

Many of those stations are currently broadcasting in the UHF frequency range, but will switch to VHF after Feb 17, 2009.

For example Philadelphia's KWY-DT (CBS) is currently broadcasting on a UHF frequency (don't have it in front of me at the moment), but will switch to channel 3 after the switchover. That means people who can receive the channel now, might not be able to get it after the transition.

See »www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthre···t=823166
Thanks for link. After looking at that thread I came across this link that will allow anyone to stay on top of the OTA digital plans and follow thru.

»www.rabbitears.info/dtr.php

And if you do a zip code search and keep the mileage option to 40, you should be able to see what is/will be available digitally on 2/17/2009 in your area.

»www.rabbitears.info/search.php

I have tested for my area and can get all the stations listed with rabbit ears and a converter box up to about 35 miles away.

Here is an example of what is available when using search and listing tools:
»www.rabbitears.info/search.php?r···miles=40

»www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service···000.html

»fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe···um=61111

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StudioTech
Off The Air

join:2001-10-10
Edison, NJ
Actually, in Philly, it's WPVI-DT (the ABC station) that's moving their digital signal back to VHF-Lo, not KYW-DT.

Morac

join:2001-08-30
Riverside, NJ
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1 edit

Re: Rural General Suckitude

said by StudioTech:

Actually, in Philly, it's WPVI-DT (the ABC station) that's moving their digital signal back to VHF-Lo, not KYW-DT.
Oops, you're right. That's actually worse since WPVI-DT doesn't come in very well currently. I shudder to think of what it will be like after the switchover.
older dog
Premium
join:2005-06-09
Norwich, NY
The last I read for this area the FCC had cut the allowable transmit power to prevent interference to stations in the Midwest.
Creating the problem of no receivable stations even with a large fringe antenna.
patcat88

join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
kudos:1

Re: Rural General Suckitude

They should have made USA DTV be encoded in CDMA.

53059959
Temp banned from BBR more then anyone

join:2002-10-02
PwnZone
that would help increase bandwidth efficiency so you could get a better picture or sound, but not raw signal strength.

cell phones work because there are towers all over the place. If you paid $50/mo for tv service you could have similar land based radio coverage.

tschmidt
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1 edit
said by fAcEtIOUs:

And I wouldn't be surprised if the FCC also allowed adjustments in transmitted power so that the digital stations get a further reach
I agree there will be likely be changes allowed after Feb 2009 as stations/customers get some real world DTV experience. The real test will not be Feb 18, 2009 but spring of 2009 when trees leaf out. Folks that had good TV reception in winter may lose it in summer.

Currently with simulcasting of analog and digital TV bands things are pretty crowded. After analog goes dark, even with loss of channels 52-69, band will likely be less congested in most regions. That means interference will be less of a problem making it viable to modify signal strength.

Something many people may not be aware of is customer signal strength is a combination of many factors: 1) Transmit power, 2) Antenna gain, 3) Distance 4) Terrain 5) Multipath and other impairments.

We tend to think of TV Stations as being onmidirectional – transmitting equal signal in all directions but that is rarely the case. Stations design antenna to have difference gain in different directions. It is a lot more cost effective to double receive signal strength (3 dB change) by tweaking antenna radiation pattern to change Effective Radiated Power (ERP) then to double transmit power. There are limits to this of course but it is not just a matter of cranking up transmit power with commensurate increase in utility bill.

/tom
jay_rm

join:2002-04-12
Netville
said by fAcEtIOUs:

The issue is that the digital signal has a sharp cutoff where you either get the signal or not. The analog signal would degrade over distance but still provide a viewable channel, even if the quality sucked.
In the little testing I've done, the analog quality would have extra-high suckage. I've seen perfect DTV picture quality with no drop-outs when the equivalent analog channel was so snowy it was no more then a ghosted black & white eye-hurting remnant of itself. Looks to me that the DTV signals need very low S/N to work just great.

Maybe in some markets the DTV stations are running at reduced power before the transition date ? ? ?

This exact same argument was put forth back in the good 'ol analog cellular days. "My digital phone cuts out all of a sudden where I used to have analog coverage !" Truth be told, the analog coverage was so static-ridden and broken up it would take an experienced intercept operator to get any intel out of it "What ? What ?? Say that again - YOU'RE WHAT... ?!?!?!!?"

Welcome to the Digital Communications Revolution - where it either works or it doesn't.
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Mac Bridger
Late to the party
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West Newton, PA

Re: Rural General Suckitude

Some stations are running at reduced power right now. Some aren't even broadcasting...
systems2000
What? You Say It's Fixed. Hah

join:2001-11-29
Cyberspace
said by jay_rm:

In the little testing I've done, the analog quality would have extra-high suckage. I've seen perfect DTV picture quality with no drop-outs when the equivalent analog channel was so snowy it was no more then a ghosted black & white eye-hurting remnant of itself. Looks to me that the DTV signals need very low S/N to work just great.
This could very well be caused by different Multi-Paths between the different frequencies the analog and digital are transmitting on.
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It's not even just as simple as you either get it or you don't, all of the tv channels I get that are digital are choppy if I don't have the antenna adjusted just right for each channel I watch I have to constantly adjust my rabbit ears or the digital channels break up into little squares and then the screen freezes for minutes at a time, then picks up the signal again for a minute or two then cuts back out. atleast with analog you could still watch the show with out interuptions even though the picture might be a little fuzzy.

Oleg
Bellsouth Fastaccess
Premium
join:2003-12-08
Birmingham, AL
This days everyone has digital cable or satellite anyway.

jmn1207
Premium
join:2000-07-19
Ashburn, VA

Re: Rural General Suckitude

said by Oleg:

This days everyone has digital cable or satellite anyway.
No, 12% do not, according to what is being reported.

DrModem
Premium
join:2006-10-19
USA
kudos:1

Re: Rural General Suckitude

That's the same percentage of people who (supposedly) still have dialup, but no one caters to that class.

Why should this be any different just because it's TV?

jmn1207
Premium
join:2000-07-19
Ashburn, VA

Re: Rural General Suckitude

said by DrModem:

That's the same percentage of people who (supposedly) still have dialup, but no one caters to that class.

Why should this be any different just because it's TV?
Well, we could at least get a crummy, snowy reception of Jeopardy if Uncle Bill, with a metal plate in his head, sat on the love seat near the window. It was something, just like dial up. Better than nothing at all, perhaps, or maybe losing TV is the best thing that will ever happen. With no TV, one might expect to see increasing levels of reading comprehension in those areas.

BabyBear
Keep wise ...with Nite-Owl

join:2007-01-11
said by DrModem:

That's the same percentage of people... ...but no one caters to that class.

Hasn't stopped Apple.
utahluge

join:2004-10-14
Draper, UT

Re: Rural General Suckitude

Hasn't stopped Apple.
Apple? Arn't those long gone / dead?

tschmidt
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said by DrModem:

That's the same percentage of people who ... have dialup, but no one caters to that class.
An analogy would be if dialup was being discontinued and you did not have broadband access you are no longer able to access the Internet.

/tom

tschmidt
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said by Oleg:

everyone has digital cable or satellite anyway.
As jmn1207 See Profile posted about 12% of us rely on over the air transmission.

Conversion to DTV is actually increasing number of people using over the air antennas. OTA typically has better picture quality then Cable or sat because it is not recompressed to reduce bandwidth usage. In addition in these poor economic times I'd be willing to bet some folk are going back to OTA to save money.

/tom

fAcEtIOUs
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Re: Rural General Suckitude

said by tschmidt:

OTA typically has better picture quality then Cable or sat because it is not recompressed to reduce bandwidth usage.
That is not always true as these 2 Philadelphia, PA channels indicate. Check out the video bitrate column.

CBS isn't compressing and has only 1 digital channel to use their bandwidth.



But ABC cut up its bandwidth to squeeze in more sub channels.


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tschmidt
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Re: Rural General Suckitude

said by fAcEtIOUs:

That is not always true as these 2 Philadelphia, PA channels indicate.
Sorry, guess I was not clear. Stations can and often do broadcast multiple sub-channels.

What I meant was programs broadcast over the air are often recompressed by Cable and Sat providers to squeeze more channels into their channel capacity reducing quality compared to what one gets with OTA.

/tom

djrobx

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Valencia, CA
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8.6mbps MPEG-2? Yuck!

Problem is, cable or sat is going to use WPVI's 8.6mbps ABC broadcast as their source. So no matter where you go, it's going to, at best, be that same 8.6mbps crappy quality, perhaps with even more artifacts introduced if it's transcoded to MPEG-4 or pushed through a cable company compressor to guarantee WPVI doesn't change their mind and up the data rate. It's unlikely that TV providers are going to go through the trouble to get their encoding equipment installed at a point prior to being compressed for OTA transmission.

You have, however, perfectly illustrated why I cringe when people say OTA is superior because it's "uncompressed". As you've shown it may be compressed quite severely! Many cable systems just remux the same quality data onto a QAM stream.

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tschmidt
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1 edit

Re: Rural General Suckitude

said by djrobx:

I cringe when people say OTA is superior because it's "uncompressed".
Agree, most people don't realize an uncompressed 1080i or 720p raw bit stream is over a Gigabit per second. Lossy compression is used to reduce it to around 20 mbps.

Compression can be used to reduced data rate to anything desired. However, greater the level of compression the poorer the image/motion quality.

/tom
RayW
Premium
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Layton, UT
kudos:1
said by tschmidt:

Conversion to DTV is actually increasing number of people using over the air antennas. OTA typically has better picture quality then Cable or sat because it is not recompressed to reduce bandwidth usage. In addition in these poor economic times I'd be willing to bet some folk are going back to OTA to save money.

/tom
My neighbor put up an outside antenna just for that reason, much better signal than Dish or Comcast, but he kept Dish for the extra programming he gets.

We and a few of our neighbors who have gotten the boxes have seen a bit better signal on the digital modes than with the analog. But the digital modes do have some odd display formats (vertical letter box vice horizontal?), but that may just be the wife not wanting to adjust for the different modes with the control. (caveat: I do not watch TV very much, very little worth watching any more)
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wcnghj

join:2008-05-01
I would switch to DTV if we could get signal. I wonder if we could get a big enough antenna to get signal 70 miles away.

tschmidt
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Re: Rural General Suckitude

said by wcnghj:

I wonder if we could get a big enough antenna to get signal 70 miles away.
70 miles may require Herculean effort, unless you or transmitter are very high.

Check out the TVfool site and see what estimated signal strength is. If estimated signal is better then about -110 dBm you have a chance. Try modeling at different heights. But putting up a tower is expensive. At that distance weather will be a factor so no matter how good the antenna you may not be able to get good signal 24/7/365.

Good Luck

/tom

mr_slick

join:2003-05-22
Lynnwood, WA
Reviews:
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I don't-- OTA all the way!

I do have FiOS Internet however

**actually i havent had cable for about 15 years once i discovered the content choices over the air, on dvds and via the internet are far superior to paying for cable

i always just surfed through the channels with cable anyways (hoping to find something good!)

--i would however reconsider cable if they offered an al-a-cart service of just a few channels (like 2 or 3!)
thecptrgod

join:2008-04-03
Madison, WI

1 edit
said by Oleg:

This days everyone has digital cable or satellite anyway.
Um.. not everyone. I still watch TV over-the-air with rabbit ears. Oh and I'm IN Madison and still have problems with the DTVs here. (Approx. 10 miles from the 15/57 tower and approx. 12 from the "Supertower.")

-Adam

Mactron
el Camino Real
Premium
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CM94sv
said by Oleg:

This days everyone has digital cable or satellite anyway.
This These days everyone has YOU have digital cable or satellite anyway.

Corrected. Lucky you...
--
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MeanPeepsSuk
Premium
join:2004-11-21
Muddy Field
said by jmn1207:

It's digital, so you either get it or you don't. It's not like the analog signals that would vary in quality depending on the strength. Rabbit ears will work just fine.
In the case of the testers in Hunterdon County, NJ (~40 miles to NYC and Philly), it was "You don't". The signal strength is just not enough with digital where there once was with analog. For these testers, there was 100% loss of all currently served broadcast channels (2-13).

We're not talking rabbit ears either... Roof antennas only brought in new non-English channels instead. One tester went as far as to head over to radio shack for help, and found out he had to purchase an amplifier to supplement his roof antenna too.

Not directed at you, but to rant on... The sad reality is, as it is now, is that people would have to shell out $300 for roof antenna if they don't have one... and an amp for $?, not to mention the cost of the converter (even with 1 coupon).. While some may say, switch to something else... That is not the point here. Broadcast TV is supposed to be free to masses. Should people buy roof antennas and amps for the portable TVs? I know I'd miss mine in the garage that I also take camping.

If the FCC can't handle DTV in a metro-NYC area by calling it "rural fringe", what's going to happen in all areas that isn't within 35 miles of a tower? A coupon for 1 converter isn't going to do it.

See 29 replies to this post

grydlok

join:2004-01-06
Richmond, VA
Reston isn't even close to being Rural.
Try that in Culpepper Va.

jmn1207
Premium
join:2000-07-19
Ashburn, VA

Re: Rural General Suckitude

said by grydlok:

Reston isn't even close to being Rural.
Try that in Culpepper Va.
Oh I know, this is a suburb of DC. I don't have any issues, in fact, I use Comcast AND have Verizon FiOS available here, too.

grydlok

join:2004-01-06
Richmond, VA

1 edit

Re: Rural General Suckitude

Yeah but telling somebody you have no problems what so ever picking up OTA channels with a set a coat hanger is a joke. You are like 20 miles from the towers.

jmn1207
Premium
join:2000-07-19
Ashburn, VA

Re: Rural General Suckitude

Yes, a joke.
wispalord

join:2007-09-20
Farmington, MO
ya no doubt i lived 60miles south of STL in the boonies and i just put my 20year old bunny ears out side and it works fine, so ppl with a out door antennea should be fine

archaic

@verizon.net
How far are you from the towers? 5 miles? 10? Try over 40. It just doesn't work.

Some Rural guy

@ilstu.edu
don't forget about the biggest rip off all time Satellite internet. When you live out in the middle of no ware it the only broadband you can get, if you can call it that. To make things worst it about a 200 meg daily download cap :-(
russotto

join:2000-10-05
West Orange, NJ
Start with the current analog channels. They're all yellow or worse RIGHT NOW, except for the nearby WNJB. That's your baseline for comparison. So right off the bat, you're already going to need more than rabbit ears, EVEN FOR ANALOG.

Post transition, 5 goes to red. 12 and 13 were already red as analog stations. 10 is not red, it is yellow. In the yellow, that location will have two ABCs, two NBCs, two CBSs, two MyNetworkTVs, and a couple of other stations. Just 3dB down and they'll pick up Fox and CW. And note that TVFool is pessimistic: I'm currently picking up a channel predicted to be -110 dBm at my location, in the gray, with a modest-sized antenna.

Matt
All noise, no signal.
Premium
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Jamestown, NC
kudos:12

Wilmington Relatively Flat Too

The Wilmington area is relatively flat too, as it's a coastal city. So if they are experiencing issues, throw in a few hills and/or mountains and you may have a bigger problem.
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WayneHolmes

join:2006-12-23
Mountlake Terrace, WA

Re: Wilmington Relatively Flat Too

said by Matt:

The Wilmington area is relatively flat too, as it's a coastal city. So if they are experiencing issues, throw in a few hills and/or mountains and you may have a bigger problem.
IMO you bring up a good point.

We live north of Seattle with a few ridge lines between us and the broadcast antennas. When we hooked up our digital OTA box to our TV a couple of stations we got on analog didn't appear on digital. Sure enough, the signal strength wasn't high enough for the converter box to send a signal to the TV.

Wayne

dirtwarrior

join:2008-03-21

any

hot rural chicks trying to put in some over time, I bet we can solve this problem real fast. lol

GNH
Tesla Recoiled
Premium
join:1999-12-20
Arlington, TX

FreebieTV

Get the same idiots that are pushing for a $700+ billion dollar bailout to include DISH or DirecTV accounts for all those poor, left-out rural residents.

swhitney2003
Premium
join:2003-06-13
NH

11 to .. ?

So the current number of channels (OTA) I receive (11) is going to drop to what... 3? It sucks being in rural America. This has no huge effect on me, as I do no watch TV. But I know many in my area with antennas only... and they will definitely lose out.
bogey780

join:2004-03-19
Here
kudos:1

Re: 11 to .. ?

I mentioned it above but I'll say it again. The Channelmaster 4228 is the best HDTV antenna you can find for the price.
Warmachine99

join:2006-03-20
Pleasant Prairie, WI
Reviews:
·RoadRunner Cable

Great, yet another thing to give me problems

I live in the 'dead zone' between Milwaukee and Chicago. While I do have cable, I have a TV antenna on a rotateable pole to use when the cable goes out. All my TVs have digital tuners, but even with my big gun antenna, reception sucks on certain channels. If Digital TVs range is less, then I may not get anything at all when the conversion strikes.

I guess then my wife will get her wish and the antenna will come down off the roof.

The antenna: »products.howstuffworks.com/terk-···view.htm

See 9 replies to this post

SLD
Premium
join:2002-04-17
San Francisco, CA

God forbid!

Oh no! If people can't get their crappy network TV, someone needs to go to jail!

powerhog
Stinkin' up the joint
Premium
join:2000-12-14
Owasso, OK

Re: God forbid!

I would think that anyone in TX - especially recent events where you list as your location - would be somewhat aware of the need for WEATHER reports from your local stations.

bear73
Metnav... Fly The Unfriendly Skies
Premium
join:2001-06-09
Grand Forks Afb, ND

Re: God forbid!

thats why Weather Radio is still transmitting

SLD
Premium
join:2002-04-17
San Francisco, CA
Yeah...a weather radio is very useful - that is why I have one. I rarely watch TV, but I know when a storm is coming.

Anonuser

join:2003-01-03
Milwaukee, WI

Warmachine99

Warmachine99: I live IN Milwaukee, With large antenna in my attic, and the digital coverage is spotty. Some times of the day it's flawless, other times of the day I cant keep the signal and it chopps and pixelates, so plan on switching to satalite.
--
»KmanScooters.com Home of Wisconsin's Most Affordable Cars, Motorcycles and Scooters
Warmachine99

join:2006-03-20
Pleasant Prairie, WI
Reviews:
·RoadRunner Cable

Re: Warmachine99

I have Time Warner Cable, and the antenna is only used when the cable goes out. I dont like the look of Sat dishes on other peoples houses, so on mine it would really distress me.

I get the chops, pixelates and signal losses on cable as well, so its not just OTA that has problems.

tschmidt
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Fairpoint Commun..
·Hollis Hosting

Signal Strength modeling

The model used by the FCC to create equivalent coverage area compared to analog TV is not terribly accurate so in general DTV coverage area is smaller then analog. In addition DTV "suffers" from cliff effect. With analog picture quality slowly degrades with more and more snow. With digital it is perfect, if signal strength drops below critical threshold viewer experiences picture freeze or breakup, if signal drops even a little more no picture/sound at all.

If you want to learn more about expected signal strength in you specific location check out TVFOOL site. I've found it more useful then CEA AntennaWeb site.

If you are interested in the gory details of modeling:
»www.tvantenna.tv/papers/dtv%20co···tion.pdf

Something else to keep in mind is situation changes Feb 18 next year. Once analog goes dark some DTV stations move to other channel and/or change TX power.

/tom
qworster

join:2001-11-25
Bryn Mawr, PA
Reviews:
·MSN
·Brand X Internet
·DSL EXTREME

4 edits

The whole thing is a JOKE!

I am in the TV business and I've been predicting this kind of fiasco from day one. I live smack dab in the middle of Hollywood-hardly the boonies, yet can not receive local digital signals well without a $75.00 pre-amplified antenna in my living room. Even worse, I have to get up and move around the antenna every time I change channels. With analog, the 10 dollar rabbit ears worked JUST FINE in a single position!

COFDM worked MUCH BETTER with indoor antennas. At the Las Vegas NAB Convention in 1999 both 8-VSB and COFDM were being demonstrated using local off air signals. The 8-VSB setup required an outdoor antenna, 600 feet of coax and a preamp. The COFDM signal came in JUST FINE using a Radio Shack dual bow tie indoor antenna (why Radio Shack discontinued this great antenna I have no clue), located IN THE BOOTH!

Of course, the FCC screwed up (which is par for the course for them-after all there NEVER has been a Commissioner that is/was an engineer-they're all lawyers!) and picked the INFERIOR system-and for it to work properly, I'm going to have to put up an outdoor antenna...while rabbit ears worked perfectly with analog.

After all, I'm 18 miles from the TV transmitters!

PS: Of course, many of you don't know that come Feb 9th, many DTV stations won't be receivable any more. Why? because many TV stations plan to go back to their old VHF channels-and most people who have indoor antennas have bought UHF only models! These antennas won't RECEIVE VHF signals worth a damn!

dirtwarrior

join:2008-03-21

Re: The whole thing is a JOKE!

Wow your in hollywood, Omg.

tschmidt
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Fairpoint Commun..
·Hollis Hosting

Re: The whole thing is a JOKE!

said by qworster:

COFDM worked MUCH BETTER with indoor antennas.
That may be the case but as someone living in fringe area I'm more concerned with outdoor reception. In your case I’m sure it is frustrating to have to install an outdoor antenna or use a preamp on your existing indoor antenna. However for those of us already using an outdoor antenna we need to best signal possible. Gain for reasonable sized UHF antenna is 16 dBi. If that is not enough we are dead in the water.

For interested reader here is the FCC report evaluating CODFM and 8-VSB. I assume you are familiar with it.
»www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Engineering_···eprt.pdf
»www.hdtvmagazine.com/archives/ms···sum.html

Given TV noise figure (based on various tests) is in the 6-8 dB range and good preamp has a noise figure of 2-3 dB just adding a preamp to an indoor urban antenna may improve signal at receiver enough eliminating need for an outdoor antenna. In addition newer tuners do a much better job dealing with multipath. That is a big problem here in rural New England and I assume in most urban areas due to signal reflection from buildings.

Bottom line all standards are tradeoffs of many competing things both technical and business. I think you overstate the advantage of COFDM vs 8-VSB. At this point it is a moot point. 8-VSB is the standard. Broadcasters, manufactures, and customers need to make it work.

/tom

RR Conductor
Happy 40th Amtrak
Premium
join:2002-04-02
Redwood Valley, CA
kudos:1

1 edit

The article left out Translators, read more in here

» [DTV OTA] 2/2009 Transition - Translators - Please Read Check out my post
elray

join:2000-12-16
Santa Monica, CA
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·RoadRunner Cable

Rural?

We have serious problems with OTA reception, right here in the city, using the most expensive Winegard antenna on a rotor mount on the roof.

We're going to wait until February, when the frequencies switch again, before spending more money to fix it. Until then, several major broadcasters are simply unavailable.

The coupon program should never have happened, but as it did, it should cover antennas and some hybrid with Dish/Directv for "free locals".

MarkyD
Premium
join:2002-08-20
Oklahoma City, OK

Mustang, OK

I live in Yukon, OK, a suburb in the West Oklahoma City area. I had to get the biggest antenna I could find to pick up all the digital channels. The towers are only 17 miles away.
--
MCSE, ACSA, and a lot more
Joe12345678

join:2003-07-22
Des Plaines, IL

channel 2 HD is hard to get in parts of chicago as they have

channel 2 HD is hard to get in parts of Chicago as they have a weak single
jay_rm

join:2002-04-12
Netville

Re: channel 2 HD is hard to get in parts of chicago as they have

said by Joe12345678:

channel 2 HD is hard to get in parts of Chicago as they have a weak single
They're transmitting at low power on a antenna much inferior to the monster they use for analog. Don't worry - somebody finally got some common sense in the WBBM engineering department and they'll be moving up the band come February !
--
3500/512 5.7 GHz Motorola Canopy Wireless; FoxValley.net
"Peace through superior firepower"

rural nebraska

@wildblue.net

reception

It's been several years since people in my area have been able to get anything through rabbit ears. There was one tower, but they shut it down years ago. Out of range for anything else. So, satellite or nothing, tough choice. Same with cell service, almost non-existent.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK

Need a better antenna.

They simply need a better antenna, methinks.

bent
and Inga
Premium
join:2004-10-04
Loveland, CO
Reviews:
·Comcast

Call your local cableco

Asks the group: "How did the FCC and NTIA spend over $1 billion dollars and counting on the DTV campaign without actually testing the converter box and antenna configurations, especially in rural fringe areas?"
At the behest of cablecos and IPTV providing telcos, of course.
--
»www.lp.org/issues/family-budget

"That government is best which governs least" - Thoreau

MalibuMaxx
Premium
join:2007-02-06
Chesterton, IN
Reviews:
·Verizon Wireless..
·Comcast

Angry

First they tell us we can't get high speed internet... now they take away our T.V.

Quite frankly if I wasent a hillbilly I wouldnt have a amplified... 2nd biggest T.V. antenna radioshack makes in my backyard on a pole... LMAO...

So either way I am unaffected by the switch because not only can I get all the stations I did analog but more. I also have cable too so once again there is always a back up.

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