BabyBear
Keep wise ...with Night-Owl
join:2007-01-11 | Maybe.
Maybe they are using the old semantics arguement. We said "Unlimited web access", not "unlimited web usage".  |
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themonkeyz
join:2007-11-24
Quebec, QC | Machine-to-machine connections?
"Internet browsing does not include: [...] machine-to-machine connections,"
How can you browse without connecting your machine to another machine? And what if I don't see my computer as a "machine"? |
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grumpy3b
join:2001-12-11
Lompoc, CA
 ·DSL EXTREME
 ·Millenicom
| Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions...
they get away with it for the same reason the DMV in CA can have this question on the test:
You can never drive faster than:
A) 55MPH
B) The posted speed limit
C) Then is safe
D) Some other inane answer...
According to the DMV it is "Than is safe"...BUT, ultimately it depends on how you frame your logic...in theory B&C are the same answer because the posted speed limit is supposed to be the MAXIMUM safe speed we are allowed to drive. But, the DMV chooses to look at it the other way around using the "than is safe" as the answer. For many it's a chicken or egg question and answer.
I suspect the same folks word the ads for the ISP's...intentionally worded to imply the widest possible interpretation and limits. Yet, later the specifics are in there...I simply do not see how they can consider a cap of any sort reasonable as cable & DSL speeds are increasing to scary fast speeds every day now.
But these things are why I have stuck by smaller independent ISP for both DSL and MBB...no caps, no limits. I do however use my MBB with a bit of care so they don't begin to get static from the actual provider. But I have my original paperwork for both services which indeed state unlimited use just don't be stupid and serve up (upload) 1TB of data every month. That is not vague at all.
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Using Millenicom? Come visit the Unofficial Millenicom forum here on BBR »Millenicom |
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funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL
 ·Skype
1 edit | What does that Cricket legal-sounding quote even mean?!
Throughput may be limited if use exceeds 5GB per month. Internet browsing does not include: hosted computer applications, continuous web camera or broadcast, automatic data feeds, machine-to-machine connections, peer to peer (P2P) connections or other applications that denigrate network capacity or functionality. Internet browsing -- it's not called an "Internet Browsing" service. They advertise it as "Broadband" »www.mycricket.com/broadband/ and even have the nerve to say "With unlimited broadband access you can email, surf and download from virtually anywhere in Cricket's coverage area."
Logo on Cricket's Broadband Page
Maybe they think that incomprehensibility is a defense, however, because they also want you to know that Internet browsing doesn't include applications that "denigrate (sic) network capacity or functionality."
hosted computer applications like DNS clients, perhaps?
continuous web camera or broadcast no video chat -- but slide shows might be okay
automatic data feeds okay, slide shows are probably not okay, but either are RSS readers
machine-to-machine connections -- in fact, you're not allowed to connect with any other Internet hosts -- just make sure that the destination IP address goes into flesh and blood instead of a "machine"
peer to peer -- note to world -- every server is a host and therefore a peer. The message "connection reset by peer" is just one thing that everyone has seen that provides testimony to that fact.
Good grief.
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Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon -- KJ7RL
What you do at Christmas does not matter so much; What counts are the Christmas things you do all year through. |
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amigo_boy
join:2005-07-22
Tempe, AZ
 ·Cox HSI
·magicjack.com
| reply to grumpy3b
Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions...
said by grumpy3b  :You can never drive faster than: A) 55MPH B) The posted speed limit C) Then is safe D) Some other inane answer... in theory B&C are the same answer because the posted speed limit is supposed to be the MAXIMUM safe speed we are allowed to drive. Unfortunately, there will always be people who say "I was driving the posted limit, it shouldn't matter if the street was congested."
In my early 20s I got a few traffic tickets. Enough that I had to go to court instead of pay by mail. I remember there was some guy charged with driving 90 in a 40 mph zone (city street). The judge asked how he pled. He said "not guilty." The judge was astonished. He took a different tone, asking why this kid felt he was not guilty. The kid said "the speed limit wasn't posted." The judge asked the kid if he had his license with him. The kid said "yes." To which the judge ordered a deputy to seize it. The whole room burst into laughter.
I think the cap issue is similar. Most people interpret "unlimited" in terms of what's average for the average person. Not sharing files 24x7, running servers, etc.
Mark |
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AnonName
@eserverspace.com | A Lie Can Travel...
"A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes".
Quote - Mark Twain |
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funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL
·Skype
1 edit | reply to grumpy3b
Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions...
said by grumpy3b :You can never drive faster than: A) 55MPH B) The posted speed limit C) Then is safe D) Some other inane answer... E) the speed of light = 299 792 458 m / s   
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Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon -- KJ7RL
What you do at Christmas does not matter so much; What counts are the Christmas things you do all year through. |
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i1me2ao
Premium
join:2001-03-03
TEXAS | hey
lets get everyone on board and then screw them..
--
»www.thereligionofpeace.com/ |
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funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL
·Skype
1 edit | reply to amigo_boy
Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions...
said by amigo_boy :Most people interpret "unlimited" in terms of what's average for the average person. No, most people interpret "average" in terms of what's average for the population in question, or in terms of the usage divided by the entire population.
Unlimited already is pretty well defined, and although it has more than one definition, the word "average" doesn't appear anywhere.
# A term to describe an action not defined within narrowed limits.
or
# having no limits in range or scope; "to start with a theory of unlimited freedom is to end up with unlimited despotism"- Philip Rahv; "the ...
# outright: without reservation or exception
# inexhaustible: that cannot be entirely consumed or used up; "an inexhaustible supply of coal"
or
# In the graphic arts, the term used to describe an edition with no set quantity or restriction on quantity for printing.
or
# limitless or without bounds; unrestricted
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Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon -- KJ7RL
What you do at Christmas does not matter so much; What counts are the Christmas things you do all year through. |
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tcharp
T C
Premium
join:2002-10-23
Lubbock, TX
·NTS Communications
·Suddenlink
·Vonage
| reply to grumpy3b
themonkeyz is correct as most of us know. The internet is communication between machines. That is simply how it works. There is no way to browse the internet (or do anything else on the internet) without connecting your machine to another machine.
What they are doing (in most cases) and have been doing for some time now, is selling you one thing and delivering a completely different product because they can get away with it because "average joe" (whoever that is) doesn't use everything he pays for and won't know he is being shortchanged.
-TC |
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amigo_boy
join:2005-07-22
Tempe, AZ
·Cox HSI
·magicjack.com
| reply to funchords
said by funchords :Unlimited already is pretty well defined, Sure. And the sign that says "Speed Limit: 45" is well defined too. It's legal to drive 45. Nowhere in there does it say "unless it's pouring ran, or someone's jaywalking, or a car is stalled in the road."
If I'm not sharing files and running servers, "unlimited" looks like unlimited. If I'm "average" then that's who the term is written for.
But, there will always be those who don't fall within the average population. That's why the DMV has to ask what the legal limit is (posted, or based upon conditions).
Mark |
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openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
·AT&T Southeast
| Throttled Service
Isn't a throttled service still unlimited as long as you can pass traffic and use the service? While the marketing speak needs correcting, technically you still have, and are able to use, the service if you're throttled to 50 kbps. It's significantly different than "unlimited service" that caps your usage at 10 GB and then deactivates your service until the following month. |
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NetAdmin
CCNA
join:2008-05-22
| reply to BabyBear
Re: Maybe.
In which case you can play the sematics game back at them...
If you have limited web usage, you no longer have unlimited web access. If you have to limit your usage, you automatically limit the amount you can access the internet.
--
"This is a bus. You know how big a bus is?" |
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ctgottapee
join:2008-12-19
| i'll answer both
the lawyer speak response for unlimited that i've seen justified would be that the 'average' user would feel that the service was unlimited because they would never hit the cap put in place. like most advertising claims, you can proclaim something and then argue reasoning behind it, not hard actual limits. aka 'Everything is on Sale!' - except we exclude half the items in the store in which case you should just mention the other half of the items on sale and not say everything or 'Half the Store is On Sale!'; in this case, someone entering a store where more than half was on sale would likely experience the feeling that everything was on sale.
so if a complaint was brought before a judge, he supposedly would reason that the typical user would experience unlimited speed as they would not be able to hit the cap, whereas a non-typical user, and one who was probably violating the terms of service (running a server, business, illegal file sharing, etc) might hit the cap, but the advertised terms don't apply to them.
as far as the DMV goes, the answer is correct. the speed limit is the safest speed. if you go faster than the safe speed as determined by the officer and judge, you'll get a ticket for going 'too fast for conditions' or other similar terms. the speed limit sign is the maximum allowed when safe for conditions. obviously the speed limit sign can't least all the rules on it, but you agree to abide by all traffic laws when acquiring your license so the sign doesn't need them.
and even when a speed limit sign isnt' posted, all types of roads have speed maximums under state or local law, and then adjusted by conditions or including factors that have other rules applied like someone in the crosswalk, a school zone, etc. |
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ANON101Bseven
@cox.net | reply to amigo_boy
Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions...
your point holds no water, if the speed limit sign said unlimited, then yes, your point would hold water, but it doesn't. Moot as it is, your analogy is wrong. |
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ANON101Bseven
@cox.net
| reply to amigo_boy
your point holds no water, if the speed limit sign said unlimited, then yes, your point would hold water, but it doesn't. Moot as it is, your analogy is wrong. Plus I subscribe to movie downloads from both Amazon, AppleTV and Netflix, I'm an average user that uses a LOT of bandwidth. |
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Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02 | reply to amigo_boy
Hi.
Unlimited = no limits. |
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amigo_boy
join:2005-07-22
Tempe, AZ
·Cox HSI
·magicjack.com
| reply to ctgottapee
Re: i'll answer both
said by ctgottapee :the lawyer speak response for unlimited that i've seen justified would be that the 'average' user would feel that the service was unlimited because they would never hit the cap put in place. like most advertising claims, you can proclaim something and then argue reasoning behind it, not hard actual limits. Exactly. Consider your land line. They advertise that you can pick up the phone and get a dial tone. But, nobody in their right mind would believe that *everyone* in the country could pick up their phone at the *same time* and get a dial tone.
It's just understood. We don't expect the phone company to qualify their advertising with "as long as no more than 400,000 try it at the same time." The advertising, and frame of reference, is based upon averages. What the average person considers to be reasonable.
IMO, those complaining about caps are like the kid doing 90 on a 40mph surface street. They're just arguing technicalities that are irrelevant to the majority, average user.
Mark |
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funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL
·Skype
| Cricket FAQ-Are there limits to what I can do?
»www.mycricket.com/cricketsupport···s?id=548
Cricket Broadband
Are there limits to what I can do with Cricket Broadband?
You cannot use the service:
* As a router or web server
* To initiate VOIP conversations
* As a web hosting or email service
Reminder -- 
change log
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon -- KJ7RL
What you do at Christmas does not matter so much; What counts are the Christmas things you do all year through. |
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amigo_boy
join:2005-07-22
Tempe, AZ
·Cox HSI
·magicjack.com
| reply to ANON101Bseven
Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions...
said by ANON101Bseven :
your point holds no water, if the speed limit sign said unlimited, then yes, your point would hold water, but it doesn't.
It's relative. The signage says there is a limit, but it's not the actual limit.
Your complaint is like the kid who did 90 on the 40 mph surface street. He claimed it wasn't posted. I.e., unlimited.
Same concept.
Mark |
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