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Comments on news posted 2008-12-24 09:38:40: Back in August, a Missouri man filed an antitrust suit against Time Warner Cable and Time Warner because they force him to rent a cable box instead of allowing him to purchase one from an independent company. Now Comcast is facing a similar suit. ..
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  elios
join:2005-11-15
Springfield, MO | DIY sure but the catch is just like your own cable modem your SOL if it dies or some thing goes wrong | |
| |  baineschile2600 ways to livePremium
join:2008-05-10
Sterling Heights, MI
 ·Comcast
 ·magicjack.com
2 edits | Cmon, give cable a break. Oye Oye Oye
The problem is when people own their own equipment, a bunch of companies are going to try to get into the market, and there will be more complications with provisioning and differences tech specs within the equipment itself. There should be some sort of standardization, but we all know that if a company can find a way to bump up a price, they will (i.e. selling boxes in different colors/sizes, extra buttons on remotes, or other carying features)
Currently, if something goes wrong with a cable companies equipment, they will come out and fix it, usually at no charge. If people start owning their own stuff, more problems will be blamed on that, and it will cause more frustration to the consumer.
Hopefully, the cable co's will just come to an agreement with 2 companies (sci-fi-atl and moto) and just those two can compete on the shelf.
Aside, who wants JUST HBO from a cable company....why not just get netflix?
Every other non cable TV provider (telco, sat) requires equipment to view content....yet for years, people have multiple TVs hooked up to cable at no extra charge.
Just a follow up, lots of companies do this, not just cable cos. For instanace, when I want to play on XBOX live, I HAD to buy Microsofts wireless adapter, it was the only one that worked with the xbox. I didnt have an option not to drop less than the $100 that microsoft charged me. | |
| | |  IM1811
join:2001-08-20
Haverstraw, NY
1 edit | Re: Cmon, give cable a break. said by baineschile:The problem is when people own their own equipment, a bunch of companies are going to try to get into the market, and there will be more complications with provisioning and differences tech specs in the equipment. What's the difference between cable boxes and telephones? My guess is that the STB will be as rare as a Phone Booth soon. | |
| | | | baineschile2600 ways to livePremium
join:2008-05-10
Sterling Heights, MI Reviews:
·Comcast
·magicjack.com
| Re: Cmon, give cable a break. The difference is, for years with sprint/verizon/cingular, in order to have cellular service, you HAD TO HAVE a cell phone, obviously.
For 20+ years now, digital boxes have not been required for service with cable. With more companies doing an analog switch (seperate from the Feb 2009 OTA switch), it will free up tons of space, with room for more HD channels and internet speeds.
Most people have multiple TVs in house, and most of those with cable, at least have a few hooked up just for basic (kids rooms, basements). When a box is required on all of those, it is much easier to have 1 standardized peice of equipment, then a plethora from different companies. | |
| | | | | dsless
join:2001-05-16
Pittsburgh, PA | Re: Cmon, give cable a break. My kid has his on DVR box! Keep him from deleting my stuff! | |
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| | b10010011Whats a Posting tag?
join:2004-09-07
Bellingham, WA Reviews:
·Comcast Formerl..
| said by baineschile:Oye Oye Oye The problem is when people own their own equipment, a bunch of companies are going to try to get into the market, and there will be more complications with provisioning and differences tech specs within the equipment itself. There should be some sort of standardization, There already is standardization, it's called DOCSIS and everything already has to pass certification from Cable-Labs »www.cablelabs.com/ | |
| | | | | | Re: Cmon, give cable a break. This is for cable modems not for STB | |
| | | | |  djrobx
join:2000-05-31
Valencia, CA
kudos:1 | Re: Cmon, give cable a break. DOCSIS is for cable modems.
CableLabs certifies more than cablemodems. They certify OCUR/CableCARD also.
-- Rob
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AT&T U-Hearse
Your funeral. Delivered.
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| | | | | | b10010011Whats a Posting tag?
join:2004-09-07
Bellingham, WA Reviews:
·Comcast Formerl..
1 edit | Re: Cmon, give cable a break. You are right, DOCSIS is the standard for cable modems.
OCAP is the standard for cable boxes »www.opencable.com/
You might notice that OCAP is also Cable Labs.  | |
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| |  fancydancerPerception is realityPremium
join:2002-08-28
Springfield, IL | said by baineschile:Currently, if something goes wrong with a cable companies equipment, they will come out and fix it, usually at no charge. If people start owning their own stuff, more problems will be blamed on that, and it will cause more frustration to the consumer. Exactly! I prefer renting my cable box especially if a surge fries it I can stop by the local office and pick up a new one. This woman is crazy. 
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Thank you for keeping this a work-free environment! | |
| | | | quatrixPremium
join:2005-02-11
Davie, FL
kudos:2 | Re: Cmon, give cable a break. Renting is probably better, but the "surge" argument doesn't fly. The probability of the box getting fried is low and already figured into Comcast's prices. Insurance and warranty companies make tons of money off of us because of reasoning like yours. | |
| | | | | | | | | | fancydancerPerception is realityPremium
join:2002-08-28
Springfield, IL | Re: Cmon, give cable a break. It flies for me. If I bought it and it gets fried I have to do all the insurance work and hassle to get a new one. No thanks, I'll stop by my local office and swap for a new one and let Comcast deal with it.
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Thank you for keeping this a work-free environment! | |
| | | | | |  Frankis chillingPremium
join:2000-11-03
somewhere | Re: Cmon, give cable a break. said by fancydancer:It flies for me. If I bought it and it gets fried I have to do all the insurance work and hassle to get a new one. No thanks, I'll stop by my local office and swap for a new one and let Comcast deal with it. i suppose you still rent your phone from the phone company too right?
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At first I thought everyone on the highway was drunk but then I realized I was driving in Florida  | |
| | | | | | | fancydancerPerception is realityPremium
join:2002-08-28
Springfield, IL | Re: Cmon, give cable a break. I dont have a landline but if you are talking about wireless you already do. Think about it.
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Thank you for keeping this a work-free environment! | |
| | | | | | | | | | Re: Cmon, give cable a break. said by fancydancer:I dont have a landline but if you are talking about wireless you already do. Think about it. That analogy doesn't fly here. With a cell phone you're paying monthly for the service, not the actual hardware. You still end up paying for the phone at a subsidized cost but you get to own it. ETF is for leaving the contract early just like you would pay one month's rent for breaking your apartment lease. | |
| | | | | | | | | fancydancerPerception is realityPremium
join:2002-08-28
Springfield, IL | Re: Cmon, give cable a break. My entire argument is based on "why would you want to buy your own cable STB?" What is the point? If you move to an area with a different provider, then you are SOL.
Give me a good reason to buy my own STB. For what? $200? $500? Until then I will rent. I am not that attached to it anyway.
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Thank you for keeping this a work-free environment! | |
| | | | | | | | | |  Vchat20Landing is the REAL challengePremium
join:2003-09-16
Columbus, OH | Re: Cmon, give cable a break. said by fancydancer:My entire argument is based on "why would you want to buy your own cable STB?" What is the point? If you move to an area with a different provider, then you are SOL. Give me a good reason to buy my own STB. For what? $200? $500? Until then I will rent. I am not that attached to it anyway. Agreed. I see these kinds of complaints and laugh on the inside because they don't realise the actual cost to the cable companies for these boxes usually like $400-$500 a piece sometimes and that more than likely comes at some sort of discount for bulk orders. I'm sure once your average joe-sumer saw this pricetag, he/she would be pretty happy with paying peanuts in a monthly rental fee from the cableco for one and get free replacements at no charge.
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I swear, some people should have pace-makers installed to free up the resources. Breathing and heart beat taxes their whole system, all of their brain cells wasted on life support.-two bit brains, and the second bit is wasted on parity! ~head_spaz | |
| | | | | | | | | |  MaggsPremium
join:2002-11-29
Woodside, NY
·RCN CABLE
| Re: Cmon, give cable a break. said by Vchat20: I'm sure once your average joe-sumer saw this pricetag, he/she would be pretty happy with paying peanuts in a monthly rental fee from the cableco for one and get free replacements at no charge. Hey pay TWCNYC's $7.10 a month to rent their box and the $500 cost is paid in 70 months! So after 6 years, your rental fee is pure profit! My parents had a cable box for 10 years, and it lasted 10 years. TWC is also not paying sticker price for the box either. They buy millions of them!
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NIL ILLEGITIMUS CARBORUNDUM! | |
| | | | | | | | | | Vchat20Landing is the REAL challengePremium
join:2003-09-16
Columbus, OH | Re: Cmon, give cable a break. May be true, but joe-sumer thinks in the short term just as bad as your average corp. does. I'd wager the very large majority would be much more willing to pay the $5-$10 monthly rent over the course of a number of years rather than an up front $400-$500 purchase. And no, your well informed techie/HT nerd do not count.
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I swear, some people should have pace-makers installed to free up the resources. Breathing and heart beat taxes their whole system, all of their brain cells wasted on life support.-two bit brains, and the second bit is wasted on parity! ~head_spaz | |
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| | | | | | | | | Frankis chillingPremium
join:2000-11-03
somewhere | said by fancydancer:My entire argument is based on "why would you want to buy your own cable STB?" What is the point? If you move to an area with a different provider, then you are SOL. Give me a good reason to buy my own STB. For what? $200? $500? Until then I will rent. I am not that attached to it anyway. Do your tv and furniture come from rent-a-center too? If not then why not since all of your arguments seem to support the idea of renting vs owning.
Here's the reason why I think owning is better than renting
»www.rogers.com/web/content/perso···hardware
(click on ontario)
Rental fees go up. This pays for itself in 2 years (or even less if the cable rental box prices go up.). If you move to a different area just craigslist or ebay the box and most of your money back.
Meanwhile if you were to rent you wind up paying more money over time.
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At first I thought everyone on the highway was drunk but then I realized I was driving in Florida | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | said by fancydancer:My entire argument is based on "why would you want to buy your own cable STB?" What is the point? If you move to an area with a different provider, then you are SOL. Give me a good reason to buy my own STB. For what? $200? $500? Until then I will rent. I am not that attached to it anyway. WRONG Again.... If you own your own stb, you need a new card to make it work... Just like Cell service... I use the same phone for ATT and Tmobile, as you can do the same for Cable Company... Companies wanna rip people off like Comcast, Cox, Verizon, Sprint... | |
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| | | | | | | | | said by fancydancer:I dont have a landline but if you are talking about wireless you already do. Think about it. You are WRONG I own my own Cell that I bought from another company. I love my cell and I love the company that provides the cell service. But that company does not carry my cell... got it???
The business of paying for the device is ATT's ol' business and millions are asleep.... WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!! | |
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| | | | |  tmh
@comcast.net | said by fancydancer:It flies for me. If I bought it and it gets fried I have to do all the insurance work and hassle to get a new one. No thanks, I'll stop by my local office and swap for a new one and let Comcast deal with it. If only they'll let me rent my wife, then I can upgrade whenever a new model comes out.  | |
| | | | | | | | | Re: Cmon, give cable a break. Be carefull she does not trade you in first for a newer model with more features. | |
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| | | | said by baineschile:The problem is when people own their own equipment, a bunch of companies are going to try to get into the market, and there will be more complications with provisioning and differences tech specs within the equipment itself. There should be some sort of standardization, but we all know that if a company can find a way to bump up a price, they will (i.e. selling boxes in different colors/sizes, extra buttons on remotes, or other carying features) -snip- I suppose you never heard of RFCs have you? Why do you think you can buy a cable modem from [your favorite store] call up your ISP and it just 'works'. It's not magic, its an RFC at hard work  .
But, I don't understand why they just don't sell "used" boxes that barley pass QA testing. I mean all they have to do is say "oh, even though its a [insert ISP here] box, we still can't support it. Sorry." And direct them to purchase a new box or lease it. Oh, wait, because they do that with leased boxes also. Oh well, I guess I didn't think of it first .
Some manufacturers of networking equipment do this. You don't know how many times I've heard "Oh, even though the device can do that, its not 'supported'". Then I flash with custom firmware, and boom that feature magically starts working, now that is what I call magic! (Not really.)
My first thoughts is that this is a miscommunication between a Comcast mouthpiece (tech support) and the customer. I'll bet the first words out of Comcast's mouth in the first letter that the legal teams responds with to the woman is "oh but we do support other cable boxes". Otherwise they are just dumb. Oh wait, they outright said the FCC has no power over them. I'm taking bets, mines on the woman winning, anyone else want in? | |
| | | | fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | Re: Cmon, give cable a break. I'm betting against you, the woman in Stockton and the man suing also.
The cable system is not an open platform and is the propriety property of the operator.
There never has been a law, until recent, that said consumers could buy their own boxes. Anti-trust isn't going to play here between the consumer and the cable company either - what ever lawyer is putting their name on this lawsuit is just as much an idiot as the suit itself.
As the posting stated, there is already a cable box available to the consumer and this issue has been hashed out. The com act allowed for open standards of the STB so that others could jump in and build boxes. Funny, yet as of today, the flood gates are open and not even a trickle of desire from the industry to rush the equipment to the consumer.
What I'm sick and tired of is this notion that people have a right or are entitled to certain things they are not. Entitlements do nothing but get this country in to the messes that it faces today. Everyone feels like they are owed something when in fact they are not. Much of what people are "getting" today is drummed up in a court and not done so by the laws we draft. I mean, even today, people think that there is some sort of law that says things in life have to be "fair" too.
I would normally call this lady a nut (as well as the guy) however, they aren't really filing the suit. The rich lawyer who bills out at $250 an hour, charges for ever $1.50 parking fee he collects, and bills by the minute on the phone, is the one that is upset over having to rent a cable box as part of the package. I also find that MOST lawyers, who do make this kinda dough, are also some of the CHEAPEST people on the planet. (I will stop my description of that type of lawyer RIGHT there! ) So, in his quest, he's going to sue the able company in order to stop this horrible attack on the consumer all while finding the pawn to use as the plaintiff. (This is most likely the issue)
NOW - look at the other side of this. The last I checked, satellite has gone to the same model. You USED to purchase the boxes from the store, take them home, and activate them. Now you lease the boxes from the providers direct. What happened here? It seems that most people were willing to add services when they didn't have to drop a few hundred dollars to get the box for the second or third sets, rather, just pay $5.00 a month for the converter. Oh wait! That rental fee is the same $5.00 mirroring fee! Amazing! I know the "option" is there to purchase the box if you can find them used, or someone selling them still today, but the point is that the consumer already spoke with satellite.
If someone is stupid enough to want to buy THE very box that comcast or TWC can buy - more power to them. But, don't think for once second that you're not going to get charged a $5.00 per month, or more, "outlet mirroring fee" or "programming fee" that has been an industry standard for over a decade either.
When ever people try to force the hand of an industry, they are ALWAYS going to come back elsewhere and slap back. When they tried to do this with AT&T in IL with not giving them the franchise they wanted, the impending result was "fine, we won't upgrade your area and you can live with out advanced services"... who won there?
The law suit is stupid and a HORRIBLE waste of tax payer money. | |
| | | | | | | Re: Cmon, give cable a break. said by fiberguy:I would normally call this lady a nut (as well as the guy) however, they aren't really filing the suit. The rich lawyer who bills out at $250 an hour, charges for ever $1.50 parking fee he collects, and bills by the minute on the phone, is the one that is upset over having to rent a cable box as part of the package. The law suit is stupid and a HORRIBLE waste of tax payer money. As was mentioned in the news item. This lawyer is suing TWC, Comcast and others in multiple states. He has found a way to make himself some money and recruits people to be the plaintiff. This is nothing but a money making opportunity and the usual abuse of the legal system that cost people more money for EVERYTHING due to the so-called legal profession.
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My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page
Ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk? | |
| | | | | | | | Re: Cmon, give cable a break. $250 per hour? That is a little less then one half of my hourly rate. They are getting a deal if that lawyer has any real experience. | |
| | | | | | | | | Re: Cmon, give cable a break. Good for you | |
| | | | | | | fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | I dunno.. I'm surrounded by lawyers all the time in the business I'm in, and the ones that bill out at $500 an hour generally don't have time to come post on bulletin boards anonymously spewing such garbage about $250.00 being a deal and having no experience.
Besides, I'd not be proud, saying you were a lawyer which I don't believe anyway, of bragging about making $500 an hour in the legal system.. many people around here have issues with scumbag lawyers who bilk people for money to try cases. | |
| | | | | | | | | Yes they are, my friend got out of law school just 3 year ago and that amount is what he made in his first year. He is up to 450.00 haha, dam should have gone to law school.
As for the downturn, forget it no downturn for him, as he told me, I make twice as much in bad times than I do in good times.
My take on all this is simple, most people are still brainwashed or to young to know that it was just like it is now for cable for phones, and it sucked, big time, I for one like to buy from a company that may give me a better interface or added quality, and comcast equipment is cheap and so is the interface.
Long live the free market down with oligopoly | |
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| | | | b10010011Whats a Posting tag?
join:2004-09-07
Bellingham, WA Reviews:
·Comcast Formerl..
| said by fiberguy:NOW - look at the other side of this. The last I checked, satellite has gone to the same model. You USED to purchase the boxes from the store, take them home, and activate them. Now you lease the boxes from the providers direct. What happened here? It seems that most people were willing to add services when they didn't have to drop a few hundred dollars to get the box for the second or third sets, rather, just pay $5.00 a month for the converter. Oh wait! That rental fee is the same $5.00 mirroring fee! Amazing! I know the "option" is there to purchase the box if you can find them used, or someone selling them still today, but the point is that the consumer already spoke with satellite. Did the customer speak or did the satellite companies decide that due to the rampant piracy in the lats 90's early 00's that locking down the box was the only way to stop it?
As the big rallying cry for the satellite box mod/pirates was "Hey I own this box so I can modify it any way I want".
Also I believe satellite moved to this model to combat cable's "no high upfront cost like with satellite" ad campaigns. | |
| | | | | | fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | Re: Cmon, give cable a break. Two points:
1) You can still find and purchase your own satellite boxes so that shoots the one theory out.
2) You prove my point with the combating "no high up front cost" campaigns.. meaning, there's obviously no real demand for purchasing your own equipment and taking on that expense.
That model was flawed to begin with and most customers got screwed. Not only did you get to spend the $200 for a box, you also got charged $5.00 per month for the privilege of using it which just so happens to be the cost of the set top box today. Also, I might add, you also don't see television makers putting satellite receivers IN televisions today either like the cable systems are getting. (anymore that is) There were sets made with in the last 10 years that did have DirecTV built in, but that was quickly ended. The why, I'll leave to google as I'm not willing to open a new discussion over that one. | |
| | | | | | | b10010011Whats a Posting tag?
join:2004-09-07
Bellingham, WA Reviews:
·Comcast Formerl..
| Re: Cmon, give cable a break. said by fiberguy:That model was flawed to begin with and most customers got screwed. Not only did you get to spend the $200 for a box, you also got charged $5.00 per month for the privilege of using it That business model seems to be working for XM satellite radio, Tivo and the plethora of streaming movie boxes that are coming to your TV top. | |
| | | | | | | | fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | Re: Cmon, give cable a break. said by b10010011:said by fiberguy:That model was flawed to begin with and most customers got screwed. Not only did you get to spend the $200 for a box, you also got charged $5.00 per month for the privilege of using it That business model seems to be working for XM satellite radio, Tivo and the plethora of streaming movie boxes that are coming to your TV top. You are kidding right?
Tivo comes with a monthly subscription, for one. XM is a much smaller and more fragmented service spread between OEM, in-car head units, and portables. And, 'plethora of streaming boxes"...? sure.. all toys right now and not "real" services either.
Your comparisons are just as valid as comparing the telephone and cable industry together... Sorry. On the surface it may look so simple, but in the greater picture of it all, there are FAR more points to consider than just the converter or receiver. | |
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| | | | | | said by fiberguy:The cable system is not an open platform and is the propriety property of the operator. That's a load of crap. The telephone network is also proprietary and they were stopped from this same bullshit tactic. You use to have to rent your phone from the phone company- you couldn't just buy a phone and connect it to the network. Because the phone company and cable companies are granted limited monopolies, they're not allowed to further their monopoly by restricting what devices you can use.
The mirroring charges are also load of crap- $60 a year just so I can watch TV on a second device? Give me a break. I have 4 TV's in the house- I should spend an extra $250 a year for the privilege? Absolutely not. (Ironically, the cable company where my family has a summer house has a completely unencrypted system. Connect 1, 2 or 10 TV's- there's no cable box required and no additional charge (unless you want premium channels). They don't seem to have a problem.
And CableCard- really? DirecTV receivers are made by a myriad of manufacturers. They all accept a simple smartcard supplied by DirecTV. You don't need a technician to come out and install it. You don't need to fight for the privilege of scheduling an install so you can maybe use your own device. In short- most of the cable companies are full of crap.
said by fiberguy:The law suit is stupid and a HORRIBLE waste of tax payer money. The taxpayers aren't paying for this- the folks bringing the suit and the cable companies (and cable subscribers) will foot the bill. With over the air HDTV (which has better quality than the super compressed cable HD channels) you get plenty of shows with 0 cost. Anything else I want to watch, rightly or wrongly, can be downloaded from the Internet. I may not like the phone companies (my DSL provider) but I'd take them over a cable company any day of the week. | |
| | | | | | fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | Re: Cmon, give cable a break. You clearly are clueless and calling my post a load of crap, silly man.
The telephone system in America is FAR from proprietary. First off, if you even know what you're talking about, a telephone line is battery and dial-tone for pots. You can plug a modem into it, a telephone, a credit card machine if you're a business, a satellite receiver, an ATM machine, etc etc etc. THE telephone system in North America and Canada is all built the same. Last time I checked, there were not two or more standards running the network requiring proprietary devices to use the network. Please think before you open your virtual mouth again.
You're right, to a point, about mirroring charges being a load of crap. However, IRONICALLY, it was the SATELLITE COMPANIES that invented the MIRROR charges and not cable. This completely 'unencrypted system" also know as "unscrambled" analog is not what were talking about here. Cable has gone through periods of scrambled vs. unscrambled over the past 30 years. You're also forgetting, in your rant, that you're talking about basic cable, which today is still available unscrambled for the time being. Premiums and the rest of the digital tiers ARE encrypted BECAUSE THEY SELL THEM IN TIERS! Unless you want the entire network based in analog and eliminate HSI and HD and reduce the number of premium services, then you need to understand evolution. You can't trap a digital tier with out affecting other stations in the spectrum... again, think before you make statements.
If you have 4 televisions in the house, that's your choice, isn't it? However, now you have a choice of how you want to pay. It does actually cost to control and secure THEIR product. Yea, that's right.. if you haven't figured it out, the world is full of dis-honest people that will steal at any chance they get - it's sad is what it is. And what's worse, is people will justify their so-called "right to steal" and do so often here on BBR. But, back to the point. If you want extra TV's then either stick with Analog or pay for the box. And, to avoid people that would purchase boxes and dole them out to their friends who sign up for $10 tier 1 basic while getting full digital cable and the main account holder making money, I think the $5 is really enough to keep people honest. For those renting boxes, it's an equipment rental fee.. for those satellite customers owning their boxes, it's really an "honesty" fee.
Sounds to me, however, you need to subscribe to satellite and use that nice little smart-card and avoid the trip.. however, enjoy paying the $5 fee still. Until people are honest, the fee is here to stay and no amount of congress is ever going to change that. I suppose, too, that family plan cell phones and XM radio service should be one price for as many receivers and phones you can cram on one account too, right?
In short, your theories are not only full of crap, they're not well thought out.
Finally, the tax payers ARE paying for this. The people that bring suit pay a fee of JUST about $200 for the filing fee.. maybe more if they want a jury. However, I'm sure that you are forgetting about reality and how things really work in the real world, but people have a right to bring a suit before a judge in this country.. the filing fees HARDLY cover the expense of some of these long drawn out cases that cost thousands upon thousands of dollars in the end WHICH ARE ABSORBED BY THE TAX PAYER!
Enjoy your HDTV over the air.. apparently to you its about PQ and not programming.. becuase you've been able to watch what you now can in OTA HD all along in Analog. Enjoy your American Idol, your hundreds of reality shows, and the Weather Radar in HD all day long. If you're that hell bent on saving a buck, why are you here bitching about everything and then loving your OTA HD? You have what you want already.
Remember, Television and Internet are not utilities or necessities.. they are options and luxuries you chose to have in your home. | |
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| |  BF69Premium
join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN | said by baineschile:Oye Oye Oye The problem is when people own their own equipment, a bunch of companies are going to try to get into the market, and there will be more complications with provisioning and differences tech specs within the equipment itself. That's like saying you should be require to buy your TV from you cable company. Cable used to do this with modems. You can use your own modem and don't those need provisioning? face it cable makes a killing of of rental fees. | |
| | | | fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | Re: Cmon, give cable a break. Its a nice one sided argument you make there, however, many consumers SAVE money by NOT renting it. The short-memory consumer often forgets that they don't have to shell out the hundreds up to thousands of dollars to buy that equipment they pay for at a monthly rate of about $5 per month for. Not to mention, they don't deal with the maintenance and repair of those same boxes either over time.. not to mention they don't have to pay to upgrade their boxes when they quickly become obsolete to their needs (ie: older 8 bit boxes to the newer processors, or from SD to HD or DVR etc)
The consumer is quick to complain with out doing math.. let's face that too.
You also forget the cost to the cable provider to purchase, install, retrieve, lose, maintain, and support those boxes in their life cycle as well. The grass is not always greener. The question you have to ask is are you willing to gamble with a box? I think Satellite customers can answer that question for you. | |
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| | Reviews:
 ·Verizon Wireless..
·Comcast
1 edit | said by baineschile:The difference is, for years with sprint/verizon/cingular, in order to have cellular service, you HAD TO HAVE a cell phone, obviously. For 20+ years now, digital boxes have not been required for service with cable. With more companies doing an analog switch (seperate from the Feb 2009 OTA switch), it will free up tons of space, with room for more HD channels and internet speeds. Most people have multiple TVs in house, and most of those with cable, at least have a few hooked up just for basic (kids rooms, basements). When a box is required on all of those, it is much easier to have 1 standardized peice of equipment, then a plethora from different companies. or you can DDWRT an old router and sync it to your main router... duh... id rather pay 50 bucks rather than 100. | |
| | |  SplitpairPremium
join:2000-07-29
Cow Towne
kudos:3
1 edit | said by baineschile:Oye Oye Oye The problem is when people own their own equipment, a bunch of companies are going to try to get into the market, and there will be more complications with provisioning and differences tech specs within the equipment itself. Didn’t AT&T use the same argument back in 68 as a failed defense against the Carterfone decision?
Wayne
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If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician.
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| | |  dispatcher21911 Where is your emergency?
join:2004-01-22
united state
kudos:1 | No, you did NOT have to buy a MS wireless adapter. Any wireless bridge would have worked, just have to set it up on a PC first. Also besides the Tivo, isnt Moxi coming out with a DVR that the consumer can buy and use cablecard? | |
| | | | | You must work for a cable company. All cable equipment is certified. You could use any cable box you wanted if the cable companies were not in bed with the manufactures. The reason the companies don't want you to use your own boxes, is because they could not disable the advanced features. Did you know that DVR cable boxes can share their content with other regular cable boxes? Just ask a Fios customer. Its the same box that TW and Comcast use. | |
| | | |  jsz0Premium
join:2008-01-23
Jewett City, CT | Re: Cmon, give cable a break. Nope, you're wrong. If your cable company uses Motorola gear in the headend you have to use a Motorola box. If they're an SA shop, you need to use an SA box. There are a few "Motorola compatible" boxes out there also but basically you need to know what encryption scheme and return protocol your cable company is using to buy a compatible box.
The cable company also has to provide software for the box. Many companies do not deploy code for boxes they don't use. So if you plugin an unsupported model it will never download firmware, guide software, VOD software, etc. It will be useless.
The feature you're talking about with inter box communication is called Mocha and it's only available on specific Motorola models at this point. It will not be a standard feature until the DCX* boxes are released. | |
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| | | | This is what I was told when buying a cable modem--"If it's not ours, your on your own"--Big deal--It works fine and I can deduct the $5.00 a month from my bill.So, if you buy a cable box--"your on your own".And if you have problems "we will rent you a new box"--end of story.
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"Oh my antenna gone...oh no its right down here, maybe if i wiggle it around i'll get more service" | |
| | | | | aside from the main topic, it is possible to bypass the XBox's wireless adapter. Get a wireless brige set up in your home or wherever and all that is required is a wireless router, which you already have, and an additional cheap wireless router acting as the brige. All total, I spent $100 on a wireless bridge (essentially another router, with the router portion disabled) and a network switch so that I can plug in everything close to my TV. Examples are Dish Networks cable box, XBox, and whatever else comes down the pipe, one doesn't have to buy their wireless adapter. Hopefully this helps. | |
| | | | | said by baineschile:Currently, if something goes wrong with a cable companies equipment, they will come out and fix it, usually at no charge. I've learned this isn't true. Comcast has tried to charge me $30 to fix a box that quit working when they "upgraded" their equipment. I argued with 4 nitwits for over an hour before a supervisor agreed to remove the fee "as a courtesy" . But they do have a policy of charging you to fix their equipment that breaks so you can continue receiving the service you are paying for but not receiving because they break their equipment. Figure that one out. | |
| | | | fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | Re: Cmon, give cable a break. I certainly can't figure any of that out for a few reasons:
1) You don't say what the "upgrade" was in their equipment. However, if you asked for a box that was different that the one you had, ie: another model or line, then that's an upgrade and you're going to most likely pay for that. (ie: you had standard and while they were there, "Oh by the way, can I get an HD box?" .. then you're going to be charged.)
But.. either way.. what was the full story on the upgrade?
2) They do NOT have a policy of charging you for their equipment failure from the point in time you call in to report the problem. For example, your box goes dead on Monday, you call on Wednesday for a T/C on Friday, you're only getting a credit until Wednesday and THERE IS NO SERVICE FEE for the truck roll. | |
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| | | | Thisi s the same arguument that was proffered when people wanted to be able to buy their telephones rather than rent them from the phone company. I personally think it all turned out rather well in that case, and I have no doubt the same results will come around with cable boxes. | |
| | | | Vchat20Landing is the REAL challengePremium
join:2003-09-16
Columbus, OH | Re: Cmon, give cable a break. The difference though here, as another poster in this same news post has made, is that in the case of the old Telco ways (and still is technologically), telephones at the core (foregoing stuff like cordless functionality, answering systems, etc.) are nothing more than real basic audio interfaces to an analog network. Outside of getting it to ring on an incoming call, it would take very little work to build your own phone if you desired that even the most basic electrical novice could handle. There's nothing special going on there.
With cable STB's though you have the strict cablelabs compliance, digital security protocols, headend compatibility between of SA and Motorola based plants, and most importantly: compliance with every whim coming out of the media corps to protect their precious content. There's nothing 'simple' going on here.
But quite the contrary, currently any manufacturer can go out and build their own cable STB's if they really want. Nothing there from stopping them. We already have Tivo, cablecard capable media center PC's, etc.. And tru2way tv sets are coming out soon that are even (theoretically) capable with SDV systems.
All in all, no one is being stopped from making their own cable STB's, you just have to ask yourself why they aren't making them. For the most part I think it's due to the rigmarole with getting cablecards to work and the resulting low turnout for use. Even tv's with built in cablecard slots have been phased out the past couple years. I think once we start seeing tru2way devices go mainstream this will all change.
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I swear, some people should have pace-makers installed to free up the resources. Breathing and heart beat taxes their whole system, all of their brain cells wasted on life support.-two bit brains, and the second bit is wasted on parity! ~head_spaz | |
| | | | | | | Re: Cmon, give cable a break. said by Vchat20:With cable STB's though you have the strict cablelabs compliance, digital security protocols, headend compatibility between of SA and Motorola based plants, and most importantly: compliance with every whim coming out of the media corps to protect their precious content. There's nothing 'simple' going on here. that's nothing but a BS excuse. As an engineer NONE of that is a reason why a cable company must maintain the device. Cable company has one job, BROADCAST, period.
said by Vchat20:But quite the contrary, currently any manufacturer can go out and build their own cable STB's if they really want. Nothing there from stopping them. We already have Tivo, cablecard capable media center PC's, etc.. And tru2way tv sets are coming out soon that are even (theoretically) capable with SDV systems. Now, making yourself a std stb has been done before and any company can reverse engineer and produce an identical STB for the end user. Again, all of the talk of how Cable has it hard is all load of $h!t.... | |
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|  NOCManMacChatterPremium
join:2004-09-30
Colorado Springs, CO | Re: DIY Buy a Tivo? I did, but we cant buy cablecards either. Same situation as the box. Verizon charges me 2.99 per card per month. | |
| | | miscDude
join:2005-03-24
Hendersonville, NC | Re: DIY said by NOCMan:Buy a Tivo? I did, but we cant buy cablecards either. Same situation as the box. Verizon charges me 2.99 per card per month. the FCC requirements say nothing about being able to buy a cablecard. The ruling was that the cable company had to seperate the security aspects of the box from it's tuning functions. The cablecard is the security function which the FCC recognized the MSO's wanted to keep control of to protect their product (often a contractual requirement with the actual content providers). | |
| | | | | said by NOCMan:Buy a Tivo? I did, but we cant buy cablecards either. Same situation as the box. Verizon charges me 2.99 per card per month. That's because owning the equipment doesn't mean they have to incorporate your serial number into their network. Imagine if everyone could buy a box and the service provider had to input your equipment into their system. It would be a mess with no standardization. In turn, it would cause rates to go up because of the additional work involved in record keeping. | |
| | | | fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | Re: DIY Exactly.. I mean, imagine how it was of the days of the A/B cellular networks.. where people could buy their own cell phones and you just called in and activated your phone with a few sets of numbers... or.. or.. wait.. no.. imagine it with cable modems... that's certainly a mess too!
..has nothing to do with S/N issues.. it's pure security and control. The S/N schemes would be standardized and most likely a combined effort by cable labs or the industry in whole. Believe it or not, different players in the larger games of business do sometimes work these things out in advance. | |
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| | | Re: Crazy timing So I am long time cable internet customer of Comcrap. I have always purchased my modem. Well several years and name changes of the provider, I started to have speed issues. They sent out a tech and he blamed the modem. So he took mine but I told him I bought it. He said no we didn't and why are we renting one then. So we called and sent in a proof of purchase, which we also bought a service plan which was sill in effect. They couldn't figure out how long they were billing us so they gave use free service for 8 mons. Then just last month(11/08), we saw an extra charge on our bill. When we called they said it was for not returning a modem. Not the new one but old one we purchased. They researched our account to see the mistakes and sent a correction to accounting. But they also said this was happening a lot lately. My only point is there was nothing wrong with the modem. The only problem with purchasing is you have to watch your bill like a hawk. They just loving billing for equipment even if it is not theirs. BTW, I did give back their rental unit he tried to swap out. It was refurbished trash. | |
| | | | |  Huge Data Conversion Issues!
The customer owned modem db field and rate codes fields get messed up EVERY time! Not just once in a while, EVERY TIME. They don't care to check if your modem is yours or not. I see there is a modem on your account.
Just add the rate code for the modem and rental fee and keep merging the data together. Let billing and tech support call centers clean up the customer records as people call in about it!
This happens sooooo much its not even funny.
If I messed up a clients data like that I would be out of work and probably sued. Heads need to roll.
Comcast IT needs to get its head out of their ... and do some real work instead of running the same old junk scripts over and over again. | |
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| | | Re: DIY It was not that long ago that you had to pay rental on your landline phones- they were good tough phones but lawsuits changed all that and you can now get phones for next to nothing.
Ca boxes may not go the same route but IF I go U-verse or Sat to get off cable I'm looking at 3-4 boxes at $5-7 each per mo and I bet I could come out ahead if I owned them. | |
| | | fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | Re: DIY The problem is that it's not the same with phone like so many try to associate.
The "telephone" didn't give you your service nor was it an addressable service. Cable TV is controlled at the home (digital that is) with a converter box and it is addressable.
Times ARE changing, however, it's not quite there just yet. So long as there are two major players out there that developed the systems that cable operates on and only one public, there is going to be a period of time where a migration would have to take place to allow for open access.
Further, the telephone system was partially funded with people's money where as cable TV was private money. People often forget this little fact and right-a-ways are not an excuse as they are paid for as well.
The fact if you come out ahead or not if you buy your own boxes is 1) not the only reason that congress or regulations would force a private industry to operate a luxury business in a way government sees fit is so you can save money... 2) its a gamble if you would come out ahead or not.
Personally, I'd rather rent equipment than buy unless the price of a box was low and the offer was better. I'd rather not buy new equipment every time something new comes out.. I'd rather not deal with figuring out who is responsible for down time (cable or the box maker) and also, I'd rather let the cable operator manage their network themselves and be able to evolve as time goes on vs get into these hold backs like as in the Tivo issue and SDV. | |
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| | | | fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | Re: DIY said by pabster:elios, yes, that's right. You assume the risk outside of defects covered by the manufacturers' warranty...standard operating practice. I think that's a risk many users are willing to take, if the monopolies afforded that option. Hence the point here. I think you're wrong, as in the point of Satellite in moving away from that model.. many consumers were shocked when they found out the consequences of owning a satellite box vs renting a cable box.
High upfront costs
The question of who to call when there is an issue.
Service call fee's for customer owned equipment (like telco)
No credit for downtime while the box is in for repair.
The real fact is that the consumer doesn't want to pay for a box period, at large. No one really cared about the box fee until congress mandated that the box fee be broken out on the bill back in the mid-90's.. then it became an issue. | |
| | | | Reviews:
 ·CenturyLink
·Verizon Wireless..
·Mediacom
| Re: DIY Yeah, fiberguy, but the reality is a lot of folks STILL *purchase* their satellite receivers/DVRs. I do, and I know a whole lot of folks who do.
The point is that there should be that CHOICE. If folks are fine with shelling out $12 for each DVR or set-top box from their local monopoly, so be it. But give those who don't mind paying up-front and OWNING that equipment the choice to do so. | |
| | | | | fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | Re: DIY I beg to differ with you that a lot of people still purchase their receivers.. that market has all but shrunk to nothingness.
I also disagree that there should be a choice, at least to the consumer that is. The CHOICE should be to the provider ESPECIALLY in the satellite industry.
Did Sony, Toshiba, GE/RCA, Tivo, etc. invest in the networks that were built by the providers such as Comcast, TWC, DirecTV, Huges, etc? Did any of those companies take any "risk" in their investments by laying out the cash or taking the risk in credit to build these systems? So, who is government or anyone else to mandate or dictate to these operators that they have to open up their systems so that other businesses can make a living off the backs of those who did the work?
This entire argument was man-made and takes it so far out of the boundaries of the basics in law that it's not even funny.
My main point is that one industry was strong armed by another industry with the aid of the government which never should have happened. However, IF the operators CHOSE to allow the building of decoders by another interested party on the outside, then it should in fact be THEIR choice.
Just as in things like automobiles, to be able to make parts as OEM to the manufactures, you have to get permission from them to do so.. I guess somewhere, the people in congress and some rogue people in agencies like the FCC seem to differ with this opinion. And, just becuase it's so doesn't mean it's right. The government, as we know, is corrupt in so many ways and doesn't always follow the law. Don't let desire and personal wishes cloud your judgment when it comes to right or wrong. The rules have been so clouded skewed so much that what's right will never be any more.
We live in a time where no matter what the laws say, those in charge will make it what ever they want it to be for the highest price. (Price doesn't always equal cash either. | |
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| | | Just like you'd want to rent a car for the rest of your life instead of buying them. Let's see you pay about 25 times more or 2500 percent more by renting instead of buying. It's probably worst with a modem as modems at least for dsl can be had for free that people throw away when they switch to adsl2+. | |
| | | | said by elios:sure but the catch is just like your own cable modem your SOL if it dies or some thing goes wrong If I plan on using them for a long time I would never rent it. It's just like leasing a car instead of purchasing it. You're just throwing away money. I've had my Motorola SurfBoard 5100 modem for 5 years now. I purchased it from NewEgg for about $40. During this 5 year timeframe I've been a Comcast customer. I would've spent $180+ vs $40 over 5 years. | |
| | | | How is it any different from back in the 1980s when the federal judge said the baby bells couldn't force you to rnt phones from them and opened up free commerce in the telephony business? I have a Motorola cable modem for my RCN service that I could buy for $35 on e-bay, but good 'ole RCN insists that I continue to rent from them for $6.50 per month. | |
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Reviews:
·Comcast
| I'd love to own one Just like owning a cable modem, I'd love to own my own boxes that give me all the features comcast has on theirs (ondemand doesnt work on tivo, yes they have their own stuff i know)... but also just like cable modems if you sell the boxes in public stores they WILL COME DOWN IN PRICE unlike what people want you to think, Tivo is expensive because its a niche market, a standard box if standardized with like tru2way or something would get cheap fast because of the higher demand for them, just like DOCSIS modems... so the whole, when it breaks you are out of luck argument happens, you just get comcast to tell you its broke, we can rent you one, or you can go to wal-mart and buy another one for x number of dollars... | |
| | | | Re: I'd love to own one As a counter-point, I like renting my cable modem and digital tuner/DVR. If anything goes wrong with it, the cable company comes in (free of charge) and fixes it. If they can't fix it, they replace it with another unit. There are some things I wish were improved, of course. (Being able to transfer recordings from a dying DVR to the new DVR, for example.) I can understand why some people would want to buy, but I prefer renting.
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-Jason Levine
Support a children's charity. Buy a calendar and/or a photo book. Shooting For A Cause | |
| | |  Ark
join:2002-06-08
Ada, MI
·Comcast
| Re: I'd love to own one said by Jason Levine:There are some things I wish were improved, of course. (Being able to transfer recordings from a dying DVR to the new DVR, for example.) I can understand why some people would want to buy, but I prefer renting. I prefer renting as well, for the same reason. Dish sends out a new box for only the cost of shipping ($12) if something happens. You do, of course, have the *option* of of buying the receivers for some $700 or more, but renting them seems to make a lot more sense to me.
And with Dish, I CAN transfer my recordings from one DVR to another. Sure, it's a one time charge of $39.95 to use the external HDD feature, but having the HDD for backup and additional storage of shows is great. I only have one DVR and one 750GB external drive, but Dish allows you to use as many drives as you want, and transfer shows between any DVRs registered to the same account. | |
| | |  MysticGogetaThe Robot DevilPremium
join:2005-03-14
League City, TX | If you like renting that's fine, but we should be able to have a option to choose like the cable modems.
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Team Discovery-Join the fight | |
| | | | | | Re: I'd love to own one This is why I switched to DirecTV. I got sick of Comcast raising their fees every 6-12 months and on top of that charging you to rent out their digital box. My DVR box from DirecTV is free and all I pay is a monthly charge. Also none of that extra tax Comcast is charging. | |
|
 AMDUSERPremium
join:2003-05-28
Earth
kudos:1
·RoadRunner Cable
| This could get intresting.. I believe Time Warner Cable and Comcast boat is sunk.. This could also apply to any cable or video services provider,including AT&T, Verizon.
They should have their lawyers read up on The FCC FAQ regarding (the 1992 Cable act) as found here:
»www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Cable/News_R···4009.txt
The 1992 Cable Act, in its entirety: »www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/OSEC/library···1439.pdf
The relevent portion: "Cable operators may not prevent customers from using their own equipment if such equipment is technically compatible with the cable system." | |
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See 12 replies to this post | |
| | buying a cable box If they let them buy the box they would still charge them for the programing guide and all the features . Six of one 1/2 dozen of the other !!! | |
| | miscDude
join:2005-03-24
Hendersonville, NC | Re: buying a cable box How is that any different from TiVO? You buy the box, but still pay them monthly for the programming guide. (not factoring the "lifetime" subscriptions since I don't believe they are offered anymore) | |
| | | | | Re: buying a cable box Lifetime subscriptions are still available. | |
| | | | | said by miscDude:How is that any different from TiVO? You buy the box, but still pay them monthly for the programming guide. (not factoring the "lifetime" subscriptions since I don't believe they are offered anymore) Yes lifetime is offered now on TiVo's. I bought a lifetime for my TiVo s3.
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Caddy | |
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miscDude
join:2005-03-24
Hendersonville, NC | why are they suing the MSO's? Seriously...Why are they suing the MSO's? Shouldn't they really sue the manufacturers like Motorola and SA/Cisco for not selling their product to the retail market?
You can't blame the MSO for not wanting to get into the hardware sales business. The inventory/returns/support/management side of selling a physical product like technology products would be a nightmare for them and add even more bloat to their structures that they don't want or need.
So it's not so much the MSO's fault for not allowing customers to purchase cable boxes in the retail market, but the manufacturers who made a business decision not to sell their product on the consumer retail market. (Honestly... Would you want to have to endure the expense and hassle of building up an entire consumer support structure if you didn't have too?) Honestly... IMO with the financial condition of motorola, I'm not even sure if people would want to deal with end-user motorola support. They'd probably have to go as cheap as possible resulting in crappy service.
(I also wonder what would happen if someone ended up buying a SA/Cisco box, but lived on a Motorola system....or visa versa. Once you get past the QAM tuner, the two different plants/systems work entirely different and currently are not interchangable) | |
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See 8 replies to this post | |
 SolarPupHardware GodPremium
join:2002-03-07
Greeley, CO | ???? She doesn't have a leg to stand on... you can go purchase a box from ebay or something like that and have it added to your account. They do it around here, have seen it done several times. Only problem is, like the first poster said, if anything goes wrong with it, it's your box, so you're hosed.
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...I don't have a 8mb speedy connection, I fly through the net at low altitudes! | |
| | miscDude
join:2005-03-24
Hendersonville, NC | Re: ???? Very rarely can you get an Ebay box authorized. Those boxes are usually stolen from whatever MSO issued them in the first place.
There are reports of an MSO authorizing the box on their system if it was originally one of theirs, but then they still charge you for the monthly rental, and if you don't return it you will get charged the unreturned box fee just like if you picked it up at the office. | |
| | | | There only one box that you can buy that's is Motorola that is a dsp501 I beleive and then the cs may not know how to set them up or activate them.
Has miscDude stated they may activate one of their own but you have to return it
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Caddy | |
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|  ropeguruPremium
join:2001-01-25
Mechanicsville, VA | My issue is... Not the fact so much that I have to use THEIR box, but that they require the use of a digital box because of their setup abnnd they charge me rent. If anything, since I am paying them for the package, the box should be included. THis is just as bad as all the bogus fees and supposed taxes that are a disguise for low rates when it is actually a way for them to net for $$$. | |
| |  DaveDudeNo Fear
join:1999-09-01
New Jersey
kudos:1
·Vonage
·ViaTalk
| Re: My issue is... I agree, but the problem is the cablecos can care less about there subscribers. The law should make it that they cant lease any equipement, once Tru2way devices are available, i say a 3 year window. Plus all devices should be modular , similar to how sony have devicelink. So you can buy any TV, and a Cable-module, you call the cableco, give them your device number, and it works in minutes. Not the 8-9 times it takes to them to figure out a single cablecard install.
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You better not pout, you better not cry, I am telling you why Jesus Christ is coming to town..
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| | | miscDude
join:2005-03-24
Hendersonville, NC | Re: My issue is... There will always be customers who prefer to lease/rent vs. buying outright their cable equiptment, so outright banning the mso from leasing equiptment wouldn't be fair to those who don't want ot have to purchase a new device.
And the beyond actual hardware issues, it seems the biggest issue with cablecard installs tend to be getting the pairing information correct....either from wrong information in the billing/controlling systems, or from the pairing information being sent to the card before it's ready for it. With a 2-way device you don't have to worry as much about those issues since the system can can back and automatically send the pairing information. Existing Seperable security boxes rented by the MSO already do this since they have 2way capability. | |
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| quatrixPremium
join:2005-02-11
Davie, FL
kudos:2
2 edits | Yeah, why should companies be allowed to make money? We should get everything for free.
One digital box is included in the package prices anyway, just like you said it should be. You only pay extra for additional outlets or DVRs, and those prices are clearly advertised. | |
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| ht4
@comcast.net | the first box is included in the package its the extra box you have to pay for. i dont mind paying a little fee for a second box but what i really hate is paying 6.99 for the box and then 7 more dollars for hd on top of that on the same box . that is what i hate. | |
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| | Not so fast.... ...when you take away the box rental income from the cable companies, they'll soon require a 350 billion government bailout just like the banks, auto and insurance companies.
At the end of the day, we the taxpayers will wind up paying for it anyway. | |
| | | | Re: Not so fast.... said by nonymousa :
...when you take away the box rental income from the cable companies, they'll soon require a 350 billion government bailout just like the banks, auto and insurance companies.
At the end of the day, we the taxpayers will wind up paying for it anyway.
Your wrong. These boxes cost a lot of money. The cable companies rental fees barely cover one box in a year. You exchange that box and then that rental fee is losing money for them. That fee is only for the cable company to get there money back for the boxes price. | |
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| | It doesn't matter... You can't win with the cable companies. If you were able to buy a box, they'd charge a monthly "guide fee" per box that was equal to or a token amount smaller than box rental, just like they do for CableCARDs, which are only $1.50 cheaper on my system than just renting a box is.
The cable companies need to be completely overhauled. We shouldn't be taking steps backwards into the world where every TV requires a box or some other doodad just to receive basic channels. | |
| | | They should make all boxes rent to own with a cap on how muc They should make all boxes rent to own with a cap on how much over there price they can bill you as rent fees. Also only have 1 HD and or DRV fee per house. Also they should let buy outright with them being forced to let you port it to other networks.
The Cable guard , Protection Plans and others cover replacing them at no cost , no rent time reset, and no 2 year re lock in.
also mirroring fee / outlet fees / card fees should also be part of that as well. | |
| | miscDude
join:2005-03-24
Hendersonville, NC | Re: They should make all boxes rent to own with a cap on how muc You do realize that the rental fee also includes the cost of the guide information. Guide data isn't free. If you don't believe me, Why does TiVO charge a monthly guide programming fee too for equiptment you purchase from them? | |
| | | | | Re: They should make all boxes rent to own with a cap on how muc Why can't the guide data be in 1 fee per house not per box? | |
| | | | miscDude
join:2005-03-24
Hendersonville, NC | Re: They should make all boxes rent to own with a cap on how muc It depends upon the licensing fee's they have to pay their guide provider. Do they pay per customer/account? Or do they pay a per device licensing fee? It all depends upon how the contracts are written. With video content, usually it's a per-sub cost, so you basically get all the channels on any capable tv on the account for the intial cost (instead of paying the same large package amount for each tv/outlet). Guide licensing probably works differently.
The question also becomes, if they pay per-sub instead of per-device, how do they factor in cable-card and analog only customers who don't receive (and shouldn't be charged for) the guide? Do you bump up the cost to the guide only customers to subsidize them?
sadly, like most things in life, I don't know if there are any easy answers. | |
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| |  dvd536as Mr. Pink as they comePremium
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ
kudos:4 | said by miscDude:Why does TiVO charge a monthly guide programming fee too for equiptment you purchase from them? CORPORATE GREED!
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When I gez aju zavateh na nalechoo more new yonooz tonigh molinigh - Ken Lee | |
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jmr50
join:2000-05-14
New York, NY | Time for a Cable Carterfone Prior to 1968, nobody could connect anything but a Bell-built phone to the phone system, and you only had three models available in most areas: wall, desk, and "princess". AT&T claimed that it was necessary to protect the network and for standardization... but it also resulted in millions of people paying a monthly fee to rent their phones. Then, the FCC handed down a decision (13 F.C.C.2d 420) which allowed connection of third party devices owned by consumers (the so-called Carterfone, a wireless to phone system). This decision, while seeming minor, caused years of drama with AT&T (which was still insistent that phone service would explode if third-party devices were connected). Yet, this opened up the creation of millions of innovative devices, from phones in more than 3 colors (gasp!) to answering machines, wireless phones, caller ID boxes, and other do-dads. Nearly nobody thinks about renting a phone anymore, prices have plummeted, and great ideas allowed to come to market.
So, why not do this with the cable box market? We all hate paying for the set top boxes (even the cable companies, which spend billions on them). The quality is terrible, user interfaces are lousy, and innovation is slow. I'm all for throwing this model away, letting a thousand manufacturers come up with their own designs, and see what a bit of competition can produce. Will there be some quality issues? Sure -- you can buy a lousy telephone, too -- but the gains outweigh the risk.
While we're at it, let's force satellite companies to conform to the same spec. The rest of the world is converging on DVB--maybe even that? | |
| | miscDude
join:2005-03-24
Hendersonville, NC | Re: Time for a Cable Carterfone We kind of already have that, the problem is no manufacturers wanted to play. The first gen was the cablecard spec. Anybody can make a cablecard device and sell it to the public. The problem was this spec did not address 2-way communication, so 3rd party cablecard devices are currently only 1-way enabled. (even though the cablecard itself is capable of 2way).
To remedy this, we have the new tru2way/OCAP standard. Think of this as 2-way cablecard, with some added stuff to allow the consumer device to download software widgets allowing it to communicate with the headend systems (VoD Servers, etc). We are starting to see it being implemented and it's already live in 2 markets, with many more making the back-end improvements needed prior to launch.
The hope is that the improvements in tru2way enabling that interactive communication with the cable system will overcome the lack of enthusiam consumers had with 1-way cablecard devices, which ultimately led to the decline in consumer electronic manufacturers making products to take advantage of the tech. | |
| | | | | Re: Time for a Cable Carterfone I don't even think it was an issue of "not wanting to play." I think Motorola and Cisco looked at the total cost of entering the retail market (and the absolutely massive amount of support infrastructure you would have to build...literally dealing with every Cable company in America and all their individual headends) for what I think most reasonable people would agree would be a fairly small market and what they could reasonably charge people for a box and came to conclusion that was absolutely no money in it. | |
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| | | | Hope she wins! For you youngsters out there, you used to have to rent your own telephone also, you couldn't purchase it. I see nothing wrong with allowing people to buy these. I hope she wins! | |
| | | | | Re: Hope she wins! I don't think anyone here is saying that there is anything wrong with buying if that is what you choose to do. I think the objection is using the FCC rules that says they have to allow compatible devices onto the network (which they already do per Tivo and VMC) and twist it into something that forces either the MSO or the STB suppliers into selling the STBs at retail.
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 ChucklesPremium
join:2006-03-04
Saint Paul, MN | Please. I'm going to sue her because she won't let me buy her head and use it to play soccer.
How is she forced to rent it? She can just not have digital cable. | |
| | | The trouble with this is..... That not all cable companies are the same. Will EVERY cable box work on EVERY service? I think not. I know you can go to Best Buy and purchase a DirecTV receiver, take it home, plug it in, call em up and activate it on your account but that's because all DirecTV boxes work on their service. | |
| | miscDude
join:2005-03-24
Hendersonville, NC | Re: The trouble with this is..... from a technical standpoint...yes, and maybe.
A Scientic Atlanta box will work on a SA plant.
A OOB agile Motorola box should work on any motorola plant. You currently cannot swap between the two because they handle things very differently when the way the boxes and headend interact.
There are also now digital tuner only boxes, and if your system isn't ADS, then you will not receive all your channels because they don't have the ability to get the analog channels.
Plus since the box's get their software from the system, the proper software version for you specific model and hardware revision for your box would need to be configured and loaded on the plant. If there are not existing boxes of the identical type on the plant, there is a good chance the software was never loaded. | |
| | | | No, you're wrong.
All new cable boxes are required to use a CableCard to separate security from their boxes. Any third party company could make a cable box that would work with any cable provider as long as they adhere to the CableCard standards. Look at the back of any new Motorola cable box and you will see the cable card slightly sticking out. They had to do this to following the FCC ruling.
I don't now why more people aren't on board with these people. You actually enjoy paying rental fees? This is insane. When you look at how much you pay in rental fees you probably could have bought 10 cable boxes. | |
| | | jsz0Premium
join:2008-01-23
Jewett City, CT | Re: The trouble with this is..... Not really.
An HD-DVR from Motorola in volume is a little over $400
So most likely if they were sold to the public directly they'd be $500 or so to cover the increased support costs for Motorola. So that would take 33 months to break even on the box itself.
You'd have to lease or buy a CableCARD too. So say you get charged $3/month for an M-Card. In the same span of 33 months you're going to pay about $100 for it.
So after nearly 3 years you're going to spend $500 up front, $100 in monthly fee's, and you'll end up with no warranty or support from the cable company. In about 3 years the industry will be moving to MPEG4 in a big way so that's another $500 or so. If not MPEG4, they will likely be utilizing 860+ mhz which current DCH motorola boxes cannot do.
So yeah... not really a great deal IMO. | |
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| | Rental fees are unfair to people with a lot of TVs The area where rental fees is screwed up is when you have a lot of TVs. I have 6 TVs which basically doubles my cable bill. That's crazy. You should get a discount for renting more boxes. | |
| |  jay608Going Nucking Futs
join:2007-01-22
Chicago, IL | Re: Rental fees are unfair to people with a lot of TVs You choose to have 6 tvs, and provide cable to all of them. Get rid of a few of those tv's or don't put cable on them. Problem of doubling your cable bill solved. | |
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Reviews:
·Comcast
| Not workable I was originally feel the Lady had a point but I hate law suits, but after reading this there is more to the picture for example no known standards for cable systems and it would be a niche market to where it could be not cost effective to buy. Another issue is features offed are controlled by the cable company this would make it a very difficult business model. | |
| | BF69Premium
join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN | Re: Not workable said by Scatcatpdx:I was originally feel the Lady had a point but I hate law suits, but after reading this there is more to the picture for example no known standards for cable systems and it would be a niche market to where it could be not cost effective to buy. Another issue is features offed are controlled by the cable company this would make it a very difficult business model. it is workable. | |
| | | miscDude
join:2005-03-24
Hendersonville, NC | Re: Not workable said by BF69:said by Scatcatpdx:I was originally feel the Lady had a point but I hate law suits, but after reading this there is more to the picture for example no known standards for cable systems and it would be a niche market to where it could be not cost effective to buy. Another issue is features offed are controlled by the cable company this would make it a very difficult business model. it is workable. The cable systems in their current form... no, it is not. It is not workable for a 3rd party to provide a 2-way box in the retail market to consumers. Why? because systems are not set up the same. SA/Cisco and Motorola do things completely different from each other. The only real similarity on the tech side is they both use QAM to send the signal down RF.
2way communication? SA uses a QPSK mod/Demod system with IP addresses working on a DAVIC protocol. Moto uses their own proprietary Out of Band protocols that natively use a non-IP based addressing scheme. SA has a single upstream and downstream frequency for an area. Moto has a single downstream, but can have multiple upstreams depending on the plant's configuration. (Moto uses a seperate device on the network that acts as a router between the box, the controller, and interactive applications. it is this device that now utilizes IP addressing that VOD and other apps need to address the box)
Channel maps and system configuration, Again... the 2 systems do things entirely different and it's impossible to list the differences here.
Data? SA actually has a seperate QAM data carrier to send it's software (and guide) to the box. Moto sends everything down the Out-of-band QPSK carrier. Even the Guide data is handled/formated differently between the systems.
Then you start getting into the question about how do you interact with the 3rd party interactive applications, such as VoD? Each VoD vendor (BigBand, SeaChange, Tandberg, etc) has their own software and way of controlling communication between the box and the backend VoD Equiptment. The box's application is sent to the box as part of it's software, and is usually customized for the particular box hardware. (obviously, code written for a moto box won't work on a SA box).
With the current lack of a universal 2-way standard, It would require basically for any 3rd party company to get the propritary specs from both SA and Moto, and either basically build 2 totally different STB's into their hardware to allow it to work on both systems, or research and market 2 versions of their hardware...one for each system. (And with your average consumer not realizing the technical differences between the cable platforms, the odds of "oops.. I got the wrong version" support/return issues would be immense). For all intents and purposes, this does not make for a very workable business model.
The Tru2way/OCAP specs change all this. They basically specify a standard for cable-tv communication by moving a large part of it to use the existing DOCSIS standards. For the hardware, it also specifics certain standards for the firmware/software to allow interactive application vendors (such as VoD) to create a universal plug-in/Widget that can be loaded on any hardware type and allow it to run successfully. (API's etc.... allowing the hardware manufacturer to use whatever base hardware they want, and then just write the base code to act as a bridge between the hardware interaction, and the software.)
With Tru2way/OCAP there is finally a 2-way cabletv standard in place enabling 3rd party companies to build a successful business model around whatever hardware they wish to develop. This is similar to the way that DOCSIS was itself a standard that helped level the playing field for 3rd parties on the cable-data side. | |
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| | Cable Companies I used to work for Comcast, and I have Cox now with a DVR. What I dont like is that I have to rent the DVR, yes but I cannot use HDMI cables. It is a HD DVR, we pay for that special, but they only support troubleshooting if I use regular component cables. UMMM its hd.. why pay for hd and not get it? So yes, I get errors everyone once in a while about the cable cord not working (it is, its just that the scientific atlanta box doesnt recognize it sometimes)
If I call cox, they say sorry, use component cables. LAME | |
| | | | Re: Cable Companies You do realize component is HD, right? It's still 720p/1080i. Nobody broadcasts 1080p. | |
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| | It Boils Down to Consumer Choice Consumer choice drives the market whether it be a service or equipment service.
I prefer to own my own equipment. Why? In most cases, the service provider is going to provide the least expensive piece of equipment that they can get.
If I can select something that better suits my needs, then I'm happy.
An earlier post mentioned having to rent the phones from the phone company. Look at what you have now.
Cell phones used to be very limited in selection. Look at what you have now.
Cable modems, DSL modems used to be required rentals, but now you have choices of what you use and features that it has in it.
People like to have choices in how services are presented. It also creates business opportunities as well as satisfying customers who find that there service provider is lacking.
Of course, cable companies, satellite companies want total. It means more money in their pockets without the need to be innovative.
Give us choices, create more competition, get better products. | |
| | | Wow.... people What this lady fails to see is if she pay between 600- 800 dollars for a "Comcast cable box" she will be on her own when she has issues. (Motorola Standard, HD, DVR) Comcast would not support her or her cable box if there was a problem. A Dct700 cable box.. the most basic of the box is reported to still cost over 250.00$ from Motorola. So sure buy your own.. but when it breaks or fails no one will help her with it. If you look at the newer boxs they come with "seprable security" in them ( FCC Mandated by 07 - cable card secured in the back of cable boxs.)This was brought up several years ago and all cable companys were to allow seprable security to all thier boxs. BTW Comcast does not make cable boxs... its Motorola...Science Alantic and one other that escapes me. | |
| | | | Re: Wow.... people And right now you can purchase your own cable modem and are subject to the same issues. I've been dealing with cable modems for a long time, and I've not heard of a single one failing in the past 5+ years. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it's not that big of a deal.
Besides, those set top boxes probably cost all of $10 to make. They've been mass produced for a long time now, they are super cheap. So cheap that cable company employees will use them for step stools, I've seen it. I asked them "hey, aren't those expensive?" and their straight face reply "Only if a customer damages one, other than that they are very inexpensive" | |
| | | | | Re: Wow.... people Completely invalid comparison. A lot more things can go wrong with a digital set top terminal, especially one with a hard drive, then a cable modem that has no moving parts that just sits there. And as for the costs, look at the competition, Dish Network sells their HD DVR, the 722 for $500 and DirecTV's HR21 is $300 or you can lease them with a contract for ~$5/month. When I got my first HDTV two years ago I had two options, stay with DirecTV and shell out $1K for their HD DirecTiVo or switch back to Time Warner and rent and HD DVR for $7.95/month plus the $9.95 DVR fee, but no upfront costs. There was no real choice here, I was on the phone with Time Warner setting up an install appointment a day before I bought the TV. We have two HD DVRs, at current rates with Time Warner I am paying $25.35/month for digital terminal/remote rentals and DVR fees with no upfront costs, with DirecTV I'd be paying $16.97/month for lease and DVR fees with a huge upfront investment. No way would I ever want to own my cable box, especially a DVR, or cable modem. Not only will TW take care of replacing the equipment free of charge if/when it dies, but when the new Cisco 8500HDC series finally comes out, it will be nice to be able to go to the office and trade in the old 8300HDC for the new model at no cost.
And yes, my first cable modem, an older Toshiba, did die on me a few years ago, TW replaced it with a brand new Ambit for free. TW doesn't charge a modem lease fee, and they don't really allow you to buy your own either, but it depends on the franchise and who you talk to, but if you do buy your own modem and they actually authorize it, there is no discount on your bill.
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Don't Blame Me, I Voted For McCain
Welcome to The SSA, The Socialist States of Amerika, Lead By Your Dictator, Hussein Obama | |
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What happens if technology changes?
I own my Cable Modem and when my ISP changes technology I will have to replace it. Fortunately it has already paid for itself. If I had just purchased it I would be upset.
