 sivranBack to Opera againPremium
join:2003-09-15
Arlington, TX
kudos:1
 ·RoadRunner Cable
| reply to vic102482
Re: People with fake keys can't protect from Sasse said by vic102482:
Sorry everyone, I hope Im not "spamming" this topic. I feel very strongly on the issue after having to spend hours on end deleting bad mail.:)
I think someone needs a better email filter. 
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Think Spyware's bad? TCPA is worse. Fight it!
Kerio 2.1.5 - My favorite firewall  (Download link updated!) |
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vic102482Premium
join:2002-04-30
Upper Marlboro, MD Reviews:
 ·Verizon FiOS
1 edit | said by sivran:
said by vic102482:
Sorry everyone, I hope Im not "spamming" this topic. I feel very strongly on the issue after having to spend hours on end deleting bad mail.:)
I think someone needs a better email filter.
I have GFI mailessentials server. Over 1 million Spams caught in the last 3 months:). About 80-85% accuracy which is pretty darn good IMO.
Highly reccomended.
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I tie a rope around my penis and jump from a tree, don't you wanna grow up to be just like me!!!! |
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| reply to Daemon
Re: People with fake keys can't protect from Sasser! said by Daemon:
Microsoft's dominance approaches that of a public utility and should be regulated similarly.
Ummmm .. I think MS is still oonsidered a private corporation like IBM, Sun, etc. |
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| reply to blacksurfer
Re: "I totally, thoroughly, disagree with the arguments in favor of giving rights to the scum that they do not deserve .."
Don't forget the major "SCUM" here is Microsoft! A company that puts out a flawed product, a company that's being sued by States and Countries for illegal business practices, etc. |
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 FutureMonIs voting for ObamaPremium,ExMod 2002-05
join:2000-10-05
Long Beach, CA | said by blacksurfer:
Don't forget the major "SCUM" here is Microsoft! A company that puts out a flawed product...
If you look hard enough, you'll find that every single product out there, in one way or another, is flawed. You can't single Microsoft out for that.
They just happen to be a nice big target for all the malcontents in the world who have nothing better to do than to wreak havoc on innocent people's lives.
If the tables were turned and it was SUN Microsystems who dominated the market, I can almost guarantee you that it would be their name being smeared by you instead of M$.
- FM
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DCExec Member, Member of 'StarFire Seven' & Undisputed BBR Karaoke Champion! |
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| reply to vic102482
Re: People with fake keys can't protect from Sasse said by vic102482:
That is a self defeating statement said by "Microsoft guy". If one of the "benefits" of ownership is protection, then why must I be bombarded by someone that cant update their own system? Should I recieve 10,000 Netsky viruses from teh same IP because someone cant update their stolen software?
Who is really paying the price here is the question I have.
Rather than lay the responsibility on Microsoft, why not lay the responsibility on the users and their ISP's? I believe most ISP's have a clause in their user agreements which states that the ISP can terminate a customer's service if that customer's connection/usage becomes detrimental to their network.
So if a person neglects to maintain their computer, have their ISP's shut them out of the internet. Of course, there is always a chance that the cheap-arsed, software pirate may simply be using a hacked commection to the internet and not paying for that either, so this solution would help the fiscal viability of both software manufacturers AND the ISPs.... |
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 keith2468Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-03
Winnipeg, MB | reply to blacksurfer
thieves can put up external firewalls 1. No they shouldn't facitilate people stealing their products.
2. The thieves could put up external firewalls to protect themselves from Sasser. |
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| reply to blacksurfer
Re: People with fake keys can't protect from Sasser! Getting back to the car anology...
The problem isn't maintenance, it is a defect. Microsoft basically put a defective product on the market, and it needs to be repaired.
If a thief stole a car and went driving it into town, and then ran over some people becuase the brakes are defective due to a design/construction fault, the car manufacturer is damn well responsible and accountable for the damage, even though the car was used by an unauthorized person.
Makes you think... |
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| reply to blacksurfer
Re: People with fake keys can't protect from Sasse I'm surprised at how many people are calling the act of pirating software for personal use "stealing".
No one is actually being deprived of property (as in, stealing a car, etc), and the software pirate isn't making any money (as in, selling CDs of the pirated software).
I have always been under the impression that such activity wasn't prosecutable under criminal law as "theft", but was rather some kind of intellectual property infringement. Sure, the company who developed the software may be out some money, but there's really no way of showing that the pirate would have purchased the software if pirated copies were not available.
Take 3D Studio Max, for example. It costs thousands of dollars, and my guess would be that 95%+ of people who pirate it would have never purchased it. Is this the same as walking into a store and stealing a physical disk containing 3DS Max? No, because in that case, the store looses money. In the case of downloading the software from the internet, your copy is just that - a copy. If you never intended to buy the software, no one looses.
I don't have a well thought out position on Microsoft providing updates to pirated copies of Windows, I just wanted to point that out.  |
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DaemonPremium
join:2003-06-29
San Francisco, CA Reviews:
·Comcast
| reply to Randy Bell
Re: People with fake keys can't protect from Sasser! said by Randy Bell:
said by Daemon:
Microsoft's dominance approaches that of a public utility and should be regulated similarly.
Ummmm .. I think MS is still oonsidered a private corporation like IBM, Sun, etc.
So is SBC, PG&E, etc... it doesn't change my sentiment.
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-Ryan
Find me in the networking and Microsoft help forums |
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 SteveI know your IP addressConsultant
join:2001-03-10
Yorba Linda, CA
kudos:5 | reply to reaver221
Re: People with fake keys can't protect from Sasse Technically, stealing software is not "theft", because the legal definition involves depriving the true owner of the use. If I take your car or your lunch or your tool points, you no longer have the use. That's "theft".
Those who pirate software are guilty of (at least) copyright infringement, but many of us just call it "stealing" for shorthand. I suppose that "conversion" might be a little closer.
In any case, the we-can-rationalize-anything argument that the thief wouldn't buy it anyway doesn't go very far with the decent people.
Steve
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Stephen J. Friedl * Security Consultant * Tustin, California USA * my web site |
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FutureMonIs voting for ObamaPremium,ExMod 2002-05
join:2000-10-05
Long Beach, CA | reply to Erwin_D
Re: People with fake keys can't protect from Sasser! said by Erwin_D:
GIf a thief stole a car and went driving it into town, and then ran over some people becuase the brakes are defective due to a design/construction fault, the car manufacturer is damn well responsible and accountable for the damage, even though the car was used by an unauthorized person.
That defect would undoubtedly have had a recall issued.
Now, take your stolen car into the dealer to have it fixed, they run the VIN, and you get busted for the stolen vehicle. Therefore, you don't take it in, thus making it your responsibility for any accident that occurs.
The manufacturer is not at fault for the operators lack of judgement in using their product.
- FM
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DCExec Member, Member of 'StarFire Seven' & Undisputed BBR Karaoke Champion! |
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davePremium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:7 Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
 ·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to vic102482
said by vic102482:
Better than giving them unlimied days to run around getting every virus known to man and sendnig me 50K emails per week lol.
What makes you think that not-installing-the-update leads to getting every virus known to man?
I happen to have the update, but (a) I'm safe from all email viruses due to sophisticated wetware, and (b) I'm safe from worms, which is the issue here, by virtue of a cheapo nat box.
So let's say I go to Windows Update, and it turns out my key has been compromised. On what grounds did you want to disable my network access? Just because I might be clueless? |
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DaemonPremium
join:2003-06-29
San Francisco, CA Reviews:
·Comcast
| reply to FutureMon
said by FutureMon:
That defect would undoubtedly have had a recall issued.
Now, take your stolen car into the dealer to have it fixed, they run the VIN, and you get busted for the stolen vehicle. Therefore, you don't take it in, thus making it your responsibility for any accident that occurs.
The manufacturer is not at fault for the operators lack of judgement in using their product.
While I appreciate the point, I don't think that would hold up with the tort law of today. I bet someone could even sue microsoft for damage to their own network because they couldn't patch with a pirated version and win...
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-Ryan
Find me in the networking and Microsoft help forums |
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SteveI know your IP addressConsultant
join:2001-03-10
Yorba Linda, CA
kudos:5 | reply to dave
Re: People with fake keys can't protect from Sasse said by dave:
... due to sophisticated wetware
he pees on his mail first to kill all the viruses |
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| reply to blacksurfer
Re: People with fake keys can't protect from Sasser! Although I don't think that pirates should get ALL updates, I think that Microsoft should fix viruses and worms for the benefit of everyone else that owns a copy. If you fixed all the computers they wouldn't spread as fast and wouldn't bog down the net. |
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Reviews:
·Cox HSI
| reply to reaver221
Re: People with fake keys can't protect from Sasse said by reaver221:
I'm surprised at how many people are calling the act of pirating software for personal use "stealing".
(big snip in the middle)
I don't have a well thought out position on Microsoft providing updates to pirated copies of Windows, I just wanted to point that out.
Your first statement is a very interesting position. I have always wondered how authors must feel as their books are purchased by libraries, and then freely checked out and read by millions of people. Would those people have bought each book to read if libraries did not exist? Not likely. I also notice that many libraries offer movies on DVD and VHS tape for free checkout. How does that go over with the MPAA or the local Blockbuster? My town's library has a fairly extensive music CD checkout library as well. Is the RIAA fond of this arrangement? There is also a CD swap shelf. Bring in your old CD's and trade them for whatever is there. Nice neighborly arrangement, but I wonder how that is reconciled? Now, since all of this activity appears to be legal (is it?), what happens when a software swap shelf shows up at the library? Better read the EULA carefully! I suspect that all this is why Microsoft is really big on having everyone LEASE their future software rather than own it. When it expires, you have to pay to activate it for another year. Anyone who runs Windows XP Home Edition who also likes to mess with their hardware has no doubt had to pick up the phone to reactivate their XP license. Many multiplayer games require online server cd-key authentication before you can play (Quake, UT, Nascar Racing, Call of Duty, etc...). Pretty annoying when their servers go down, and unfortunately it looks like your next operating systems may require the same type of call home every time you boot up. Pretty draconian in my opinion, but some members of congress seem to like it...
Regards,
Ender |
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 jun412
join:2003-04-06
Stevenson Ranch, CA | reply to rbrugman
Re: People with fake keys can't protect from Sasser! Solution:
Just go to store or whatever and buy the damn Windows XP Pro. It's worth it.
OR
just use other free OS.
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Doh!~ |
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 EGeezerSummertimePremium
join:2002-08-04
Midwest
kudos:7
 ·Callcentric
| reply to blacksurfer
Re: People with fake keys can't protect from Sasse Blaming Microsoft because stolen software can't be updated reminds me of the guy who went in to a McDonalds, pulled a gun and demanded money. An off-duty cop got the drop on him and, when the would be robber raised his gun toward the cop, the cop shot and wounded the thief.
The thief sued McDonalds. His lawyer's position was "My client has a right to go into McDonalds without being shot". The judge threw out the case.
As you can probably guess, I don't agree that stealing property entitles the thief to protection, support or warranty service on the stolen goods.
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Eschew obfuscation |
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SteveI know your IP addressConsultant
join:2001-03-10
Yorba Linda, CA
kudos:5 | I think the argument is not so much to help the thieves (who most of us don't care about), but that patching the bad guys helps keep everybody else safer (who we do care about).
This is a very reasonable point, and it's fair that there will be a difference of opinion on where the balance lay (e.g., "the legitimate interests of the internet" -vs- "the legitimate interests of Microsoft").
Steve
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Stephen J. Friedl * Security Consultant * Tustin, California USA * my web site |
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