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1 edit | reply to batageek
Re: Funding Model Batageek, as soon as somebody like me brings up valid points, you consistently go on the defensive. You can call me a troll all you want, I bring up valid points for why this network shouldn't exist.
You freely admit you have no profit model done on this new version, and you have no idea about the contractual arrangement between the private entity and the local government. So, in essence, you have no detailed business plan.
I read the feasibility study last year. But once again, this model was based on the towns financing it. With the unknown that is the contractual obligation of the villages to the private investors, I'll ask again... Who ultimately has the final say in pricing??? You want to solicit voters, but you are not answering basic questions and you don't have a detailed business plan.
I also asked how your fiber backbone will be superior, yet you answered this question identifying the last mile. Please, how is the BACKBONE superior?
Okay, for the umpteenth time, Comcast and DLS.net both bypass the local telephone plant. Are you able to comprehend this? Let me know if you don't understand this. Why won't you admit that there are other options available? Do you feel that if you admit that there are 4 facilities based ISPs that you network is harder to sell to the voters?
This all comes back to my original point. Your group consists of a small number of techno-geeks who think a fiber connection would be cool. You come to these public message boards and cry about a lack of options, yet when someone calls you on this, you blatantly ignore the facts. Last years business model called for a 30-something percent penetration rate for the network to be successful. I find that 30% is an unrealistic target. Your own mayors say that cost savings is only "probable". Plus, there are 2 facilities based DSL providers, 1 cable provider, and at least 1 WISP. That means that your fiber network will be the 5th facility based ISP. Then, you've got any number of resellers out there. Now, if you are going to be the 5th broadband company, and you have NO IDEA of a business model, how can you realistically expect this network to be successful?
Please, Batageek or Octopussy, post the following info and end this dicussion once and for all.
1. Post the number of YES votes, the number of NO votes, and the number of absentee ballots submitted, and the number of voters that didn't vote for the 2003 proposal. NO percentages, actual counts only please.
2. Post the number of registered voters per household, and the total number of households.
3. Post the number of households required to make the network successful
4. Didn't the cities do a survey prior to the feasibility study regarding internet and asking if people were satisfied? Post those results. | | |
|
 batageekSlave To The DuopolyPremium
join:2003-01-25 | Boogie & AJ:
I don't' particularly care why investors like this project, just that they do. I can't read their minds, or their logic. And as a taxpayer in the TriCities, all I should care about is whether there is any potential for tax liability. The liability was limited last year and is non existent this year.
The concept for the long term makes sense.
The concept brings facilities based competition. Should the cities decide they don't want to be in this business 5 years down the road, they can lease the plant out to anyone they see fit. Either way, still real competition.
(AJ, maybe they can even step up the quality of porn, just for you.)
CITY OF BATAVIA VOTES=01
Bond Issue Proposition 22 of 22 precincts counted
YES..................................... N/P 17 2,411 34.20
NO...................................... N/P 18 4,639 65.80
CITY OF GENEVA VOTES=01
Acquire antenna television system 18 of 18 precincts counted
YES..................................... N/P 10 1,575 40.81
NO...................................... N/P 11 2,284 59.19
CITY OF GENEVA VOTES=01
Acquire public utility for phone service 18 of 18 precincts counted
YES..................................... N/P 14 1,550 40.38
NO...................................... N/P 15 2,289 59.62
CITY OF GENEVA VOTES=01
Operate public phone service 18 of 18 precincts counted
YES..................................... N/P 19 1,511 39.75
NO...................................... N/P 20 2,290 60.25
CITY OF ST CHARLES VOTES=01
Issue bonds for telecommunications syst 27 of 27 precincts counted
YES..................................... N/P 15 2,691 39.03
NO...................................... N/P 16 4,203 60.97
AJ - Is fiber superior to copper? Nuff said. Again, I refer back to the L.A. Times article about SBC using fiber. Even they get it....why the heck can't you.
As to Comcast, Comcast has raised rates in the TriCities. Did you know that in January of 2003, the cost for Standard Cable with one Premium channel was $48.47 (see page 2)? Were you aware that ONE YEAR LATER, that same service cost $65.83 (Standard Cable + a digital converter + Premium Services)? (see »www.tricitybroadband.com/2004.htm for details direct from Comcast.) In the absence of any competition (or threat thereof), it would be far worse.
As far as realistic penetration numbers, I didn't make them up...Go argue with the consultant, UTI. Look to the penetration numbers with other muni builds across the country. They are routinely in the 40% to 60% range.
As to previous studies and surveys, I believe both Batavia and Geneva still have that info on their sites. See »www.cityofbatavia.net/projects/B···and.html and
»www.geneva.il.us/bb/faq.htm
Number of households.....READ »www.geneva.il.us/bb/Broadband%20Sect5.pdf start on page 20.
Anything else?
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»www.tricitybroadband.com | |
| quote:
Anything else?
Yes. If this actually makes it on a ballot, in order to promote your voter turnout that you'd like to see voting for this, do you actually have any private investor bids yet? If so, what bids do you have? Are these secret bids?
What interest studies and polls has your group done to conclude that the only reason that people voted it down (by a more than 2-1 margin, no less) in all 3 cities was the concept that it was tax subsidized?
Has it at all occurred to you that your group is (as was pointed out previously) only interested in "a cool FTTH service" and that no one else really cares? Your claim of "no competition" has been refuted by facts 4 times now. You are beginning to sound like Bush and Cheney when you say that despite the mountains of evidence otherwise, there is absolutely zero competition in broadband, phone and tv services in the tri-cities area. And we all keep saying, when you got your brain washed, did you get it waxed too?
In fact, you mention yourself that the major backbones will be used wholesale for your project. If there are major backbones to provide these services, why would it be necessary to have the municipality offer the last mile of fiber to the house? Aren't private companies able to do this already? Why haven't they? If it's so feasible and so profitable, you'd think that AT&T (your major fiber connection, per your claims) would have already done something in this arena. They CERTAINLY have more money to throw around without having to pitch the idea to contracted private investors. Especially when AT&T isn't offering FTTH, DSL nor TV services of any kind anymore- they have ZERO incentive to see a plan like this fail.
Your idea failed last vote because people don't fucking care. They just don't want a FTTH now. It wasn't the taxes. You're not dealing with a group of farmers that want a community phone company to serve 8 farms in a 3 county area. People in the tri-cities simply don't WANT the service and they aren't even going out to VOTE for this because THEY DON'T CARE.
If it's such a great idea and you can get private investors, why not set up your own company? Wouldn't that make more sense? More profit right? It's ALL yours then!
Boogie | |
batageekSlave To The DuopolyPremium
join:2003-01-25 | Tell you what....go to AT&T....tell them you've got a FTTH system that you want to tie into their backbone....see what they say. They're all about it. Don't believe me? Try it.
What AT&T doesn't have is the will to run the last mile. The municipality does, and the people (and equipment) to do so.
If it can get on the ballot and the most potential voters in the next 4 years can have their say on the issue, how is it not totally fair to the citizenry. This is the best chance to get the true voice of the people. Should be a great turnout with the current Love/Hate view people have on Bush.
People should care. If they don't, then they shouldn't gripe about the crappy service they do get.
If they don't want it in November so be it. I'll be happy to let it die.
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»www.tricitybroadband.com | |
| reply to boogie74
"Your idea failed last vote because people don't fucking care. They just don't want a FTTH now. It wasn't the taxes. You're not dealing with a group of farmers that want a community phone company to serve 8 farms in a 3 county area. People in the tri-cities simply don't WANT the service and they aren't even going out to VOTE for this because THEY DON'T CARE."
NICE language Boogie...when all else fails start swearing about things. We have done surveys here and you can even download the survey from our web site and take a look at the questions we asked.
It does not matter what you think, frankly. If we get the signatures of the voters here (which has begun)to put it on the ballot and then we pass it,, I guess we will see who cares, won't we? Nuff said.
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It's muni-licious! »www.tricitybroadband.com | |
| reply to boogie74
said by boogie74:
Your claim of "no competition" has been refuted by facts 4 times now.
I dunno. The fact that rates have hiked as much as they have tell me there is something to having more competition in that area. Also I haven't seen any strong refuting regarding competition in that area. Just comments that have been responded too equally well.
FTTH is a good idea... if the line carrier did just that... carry the line and let companies lease it out. Will this particular plan end up like that? I don't really know, but at least it's a step up from just having to chose from an inflated cable bill and an ILEC (Covad might be in the area, but I know what SBC charges CLEC's for use of the lines and almost in every case there is no competition). | |
| said by SRFireside:
said by boogie74:
Your claim of "no competition" has been refuted by facts 4 times now.
I dunno. The fact that rates have hiked as much as they have tell me there is something to having more competition in that area. Also I haven't seen any strong refuting regarding competition in that area. Just comments that have been responded too equally well.
FTTH is a good idea... if the line carrier did just that... carry the line and let companies lease it out. Will this particular plan end up like that? I don't really know, but at least it's a step up from just having to chose from an inflated cable bill and an ILEC (Covad might be in the area, but I know what SBC charges CLEC's for use of the lines and almost in every case there is no competition).
I'm not sure how you're making your point here. You seem to be saying that high cable rate increases (phone service cost hasn't gone up at all- DSL cost in fact has gone down) automatically equal zero competition in phone, broadband and TV.
You literally said, "Covad might be in the area, but I know what SBC charges CLEC's for use of the lines and in almost every case there is no competition." Sounds too much like "Covad may be there, but even still, there is zero competition."
This is sounding like "80% of the people in Iraq want the US to leave immediately, but still, the majority of the people there want us to stay!" You can't have it both ways.
Boogie | |
| reply to batageek
Batageek, the SBC article you posted in a previous thread specifically stated that SBC thought that fiber was not feasible for where existing copper already existed. It also went on to say that ILECs thought that WIRELESS technology posed a more serious threat. If SBC is SO SOLD on fiber, where is it?? Oh, it's just available in test markets that I can count on 1 hand.
Ok, let's look at other muni networks. You claim they have 40-60% penetration rate. Great! Now, how many facilities based competitors are in those communities? Please post FACTUAL NUMBERS. I'm sick and tired of debating opinion with you. NUMBERS PROVE YOUR ARGUMENTS WRONG.
You failed to post the number of voters who didn't vote. You continue to ignore facts of existing competitors that already exist there. You won't address these topics head on, rather you dance around them and spin doctor facts to try to mislead voters. Here's a good question for Octopussy... when you guys are out lobbying voters, do you tell them that they can get $65 10mbps wireless NOW in the tricities??? Or do you mislead them and cry about a lack of competition? | |
| reply to Octopussy2
said by Octopussy2:
It does not matter what you think, frankly. If we get the signatures of the voters here (which has begun)to put it on the ballot and then we pass it,, I guess we will see who cares, won't we? Nuff said.
Translation: It does not matter what you think. As long as our group can mislead people to get just enough signatures, we'll ram this thru local legislation before anybody knows what happened.
Please, Octopussy, do you tell your voters that this network will be the 5th facility based ISP in the tricities? | |
batageekSlave To The DuopolyPremium
join:2003-01-25 | reply to boogie74
Typical Bell spin.....How does Covad reach your home????Ummm....hmmmmm......leased Bell Line.....HMMMMM
Didn't that wholesale line price just go up too? Hmmm....We swear...no price increases...really....
In the Tricities, we have SBC controlling the physical phone lines. We have Comcast controlling the pyhsical cable plant. There are still many areas unserved by DSL service. Cable modem service was just completed in St. Charles this past Spring. Customer service continues to be abysmal.
This would be a competing phyical plant, one not owned by the SBC or Comcast.
Competition, espcially with local control and local responsibility, is good. And, it would seem, even better with private sector investment fronting the build cost.
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»www.tricitybroadband.com | |
batageekSlave To The DuopolyPremium
join:2003-01-25 | reply to AuroraJock
AJ:
Done with you. You need help.
Do your own homework. All I do is throw info, numbers, links, whatever....at you
No matter what I post, you're simply against the TriCities owning a network. Period.
Doesn't matter whether it's porn, financing, penetration rates, competition,etc...you find an issue to spin to and be against. Just cop to your main problem and stick to it.
St. Charles
Registered Voters - 28769
Ballots cast - 11790
School issue also on the ballot
Batavia
Registered Voters - 18592
Ballots Cast - 8444
School issue also on the ballot
Geneva
Registered Voters - 15712
Ballots cast - 5168
nothing else on ballot
DLS...great yes, nice pricing....Do you have a connection to DLS? Or are you just a satisfied customer? Now what do I do for the other services? Got my internet....can I get my phone and cable tv through that same connection to DLS? Can my cities read/monitor my electric/water consumption through that DLS connection too?
No slag to DLS, but DLS is in business to make money . Munibroadband exists to serve the needs of the citizens and the needs of the Cities in which they live. Its whole purpose is to the long view, not how can I make money right now.
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»www.tricitybroadband.com | |
| reply to boogie74
Regarding Covad I am saying the rates they as a CLEC have to pay to SBC are pretty high last time I checked. That keeps them from effectively competing with the low rates SBC advertises. Often that >$30 monthly offer is exactly how much (or less) a CLEC has to pay to just lease that line. Not many consumers will go with the more expensive brand and SBC knows it.
How many companies have been established as offering broadband in that area? Comcast, SBC and Covad? Any others? Does anybody know the cost of DSL after that six month special offer is up? Is it back to $60? That would explain Comcast's lack of interest in matching the introductory offer. Also isn't this project also targeting business growth? What about what they pay currently?
I haven't seen enough talked about here to convince myself competition is well and good in that area. Hell I don't think broadband competition is good in most areas in the U.S. for much of the same reasons. The ILEC's all but killed DSL offerings from anybody else and the cable companies hardly ever compete with themselves. What kind of free market do you call that? Survival of the fittest? Hardly... especially when you account for much of our past discussions. | |
| quote:
Regarding Covad I am saying the rates they as a CLEC have to pay to SBC are pretty high last time I checked. That keeps them from effectively competing with the low rates SBC advertises. Often that >$30 monthly offer is exactly how much (or less) a CLEC has to pay to just lease that line. Not many consumers will go with the more expensive brand and SBC knows it.
Gee... last time I checked, Illinois has wholesale rates for CLECs set at $16- and THAT was just increased from $12! The national average is $19. The HIGHEST wholesale rates run around $25. Too bad that people here on BBR want you to think that wholesale rates are above $30 per line. That just isn't the case.
As far as Covad is concerned, it is Covad's decision NOT to offer dial tone- only DSL over local loops. It might be more profitable for Covad if they bundled dial tone and DSL together. Has it ever occurred to you that the reason that the Bells don't offer unbundled DSL is because at $29 per month it isn't profitable? It MIGHT just be that! That may go against your motto of "anything to squash competition", but it simply makes more sense to offer products that make money than those that don't.
Boogie | |
| reply to batageek
Ok, now we're getting somewhere...
CITY OF BATAVIA VOTES=01
Bond Issue Proposition 22 of 22 precincts counted
YES 2,411 out of 18,592
CITY OF GENEVA VOTES=01
Acquire antenna television system 18 of 18 precincts counted
YES ~ 1,550 out of 15,712
CITY OF ST CHARLES VOTES=01
Issue bonds for telecommunications syst 27 of 27 precincts counted
YES 2,691 out of 28,769
Tell me, last time this was voted on, how can you justify that the majority of your neighbors want this again? Batageek, THESE ARE FACTS.
I won't stoop to the level of Comcast or SBC and debate with trivial nonsense of muniporn. These are factual numbers and they are not subject to debate.
You claim I should "do my homework". What does this mean? Am I not coming at you with factual, undebatable information? All you do is sidestep my questions, provide only half-truths, and dance around the facts. No, I don't work for DLS, nor have a connection with them. As someone who's seriously interested in broadband, as you advertise, seems to me like you should be aware of their existence, NO? Unfortunately, you're not which is your loss. Can they provide TV and dialtone? No. But you guys are quick to point out that a main selling point for your fiber is to lure business. Any business owner will not one 1 pipe to run his phone and internet communications line. It's the same downside that integrated T-1s have. When the line goes down, the whole thing is down. With multiple pipes coming in, the likelihood of a company losing ALL communications is not a great. This is called redundancy - look it up. Companies like it. | |
batageekSlave To The DuopolyPremium
join:2003-01-25
4 edits | tell you what....
go find the ratio of actual voters to registered in the last governor's election.
go find the ratio of actual voters to registered voters in the last presidential election.
my prediction....the ratio of actual voters to registered voters is pretty darn similar to what was seen in the TriCities election.
How about the flip side? Only 4,639 of the 18592 in Batavia said no. By your logic, what about the other 13,953? Nearly 75% of the registered voters didn't say no. Put it to the citizens again.
Yes I'm aware of DLS. Have been the entire time.
Am I trying to solve just internet connectivity? No.
I'm looking for the biggest bang for the buck..a buck I remind you that TAXPAYERS ARE NOT ON THE HOOK FOR. I'm looking for a solution that will go "apples to apples" and exceed the offerings of what Comcast and SBC (through their Dish alliance) can provide. I'm looking for a provider that actually cares about the TriCities, and really that's all I want them to care about.
I'm looking for an organization that looks at the backbone and says, "you know what? we could also do XYZ across this pipe."
XYZ = telemedicine, meter reading, time of day energy controls, alarm systems with a direct link to the 911 dispatch center (because it's on city fiber too), smart home tech, interactive tv, etc.
All as it relates to tricities and their interactions in the community. A utility that says, "What else can we do?"
Frankly, the existing electric utilities are wasting half the assets they have in place by NOT doing fiber. A completely underused utility. Dead space on the poles awasting.......
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»www.tricitybroadband.com | |
| reply to boogie74
Granted I haven't checked in a while but wholesale were pretty high in my state. Regarding SBC I have seen plenty of predatory practices from them in the past to say they are "just getting by" with that pricing scheme. Besides I don't think the cost/revenue balance equates to diminishing returns on unbundled service, but that's another discussion altogether. This one is about their DSL rates. I asked what the rates were after the six month special period, which I still haven't gotten an answer on. If the rate is back up to $60 or somewhere in that ballpark then yes I say there is room for some competition if said competition can provide the services for less.
The Bells always complain that they have to share their lines and keep saying if CLEC's want to run with the big boys they should buy their own infrastructure. Well here is a new infrastructure being planned outside of their own and they are still complaining. They lobby and fight and whine with so much propaganda on the last election you would think the sky will fall if a municipal broadband infrastructure was built. Since they can't be honest in the matter I don't have much sympathy to see their point of view. | |
| reply to AuroraJock
This is not just about ISPs. Try to make it just about ISPs if you wish. I talk about all the other benefits of a fiber optic system as well when I speak to people.
The voters will speak with their votes at the ballot box - if this even gets on the ballots. Maybe the people care this year, maybe not. We shall see....
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It's muni-licious! »www.tricitybroadband.com | |
| reply to batageek
Voter turnout ratios will be probably be poor for that as well. Most residents just don't care enough about alot of political issues, local or statewide. Broadband included.
If you are aware of DLS, then why don't you identify them as a viable option? You are quite intent on bypassing SBCs infrastructure, so you've got 2 alternatives in place. Comcast and DLS. Please, tell us, of the other muni networks nationwide, how many of them came to market in the face of 4 other facilities based providers with presence? The only argument you keep harping on is that it's not on one pipe and it's not fiber. To the technogeek, he'll care. The regular Joe could give a crap whether it's fiber, copper, or 2 cups with string. Just so it works and he's happy with it. I've still yet to have seen any survey data about the tricities and how they feel about their ISP. The only data is you and Octopussy spouting off about how EVERYBODY is so upset with Comcast.
75% of the voters didn't say no, I'll grant you that. But do not count on that 75% to make much of a difference. Again, for the last time, THE MAJORITY OF VOTERS DIDN'T CARE ENOUGHT TO SHOW UP AND VOTE ON THIS. This is an undisputed fact until you show otherwise. This topic for discussion was NOT popular enough to draw out any more than a small percentage of the voters, therefore one can make a conclusion that the good portion of 75% would not side with you. In Batavia, only 4,600 came out out of 18,500 to vote NO. So that tells me that only 25% maximum even cared about the tax issue.
Telemedicine, syndromic surveillance (as your chairperson wants), smart home technologies, interactive Tv, this is all available now on existing infrastructures. Remote meter reading, no not available. Time of day energy controls, also not available. Not enough to justify this to the average JOE. | |
batageekSlave To The DuopolyPremium
join:2003-01-25 | No one has ever expected a mass turnout for broadband. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try.
Surveys:
Geneva still has them on their site. See bottom of page »www.geneva.il.us/bb/faq.htm
Batavia - »www.cityofbatavia.net/projects/B···and.html
The point is not offering one of the services...the point is all of the services. DLS is not a viable triple play provider. If it was only concerned about cable tv and internet, there's no reason to run ftth....HFC would do fine.
But again, this is a long term investment to serve as many needs as possible. If it can be done right from the start, why the hell not do it right?
AJ, I'm not going to be able to make you see a larger picture. You just don't get it, because you don't want to get it. You're against government competition...I'm not.
You and I both know this ftth backbone could whip the snot out of anything Comcast, SBC, and DLS have in place, or will have in place, in the TriCities for long into the future. You've agreed with me on this in previous posts, and so has, indirectly, has SBC.
»www.tricitybroadband.com/misc/la···1904.htm
Even with wireless broadband and higher DSL and cable modem speeds available, industry analysts and adherents say fiber is the ultimate broadband technology and will rule communications for at least 40 years.
"There's no reason to believe that anything is going to replace fiber itself," said Eugene Edmon, director of broadband access for SBC Laboratories in Pleasanton, Calif.
Look, I know SBC and Comcast can do this. Someday they will, but they go where the cash is. I care about right here and the future of right here. I have an opportunity to help secure the future of these cities.
What is right is to invest in our future, not wait for anyone else to decide we're worthy. We're trying to provide that option.
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»www.tricitybroadband.com | |
| reply to SRFireside
quote:
I asked what the rates were after the six month special period, which I still haven't gotten an answer on. If the rate is back up to $60 or somewhere in that ballpark then yes I say there is room for some competition if said competition can provide the services for less.
What 6 month special? Are you referring to the 12 month contract price of $26.95 for DSL? If so, the month to month rate is currently $49.95. However, you are welcome to resign after the year and still keep the $26.95 rate.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that promotional pricing is the same as predatory pricing. Predatory pricing is when a company offers a product at a low price in order to put smaller competitors out of business- only to raise the price permanently to a higher amount.
I don't see any ILEC doing this. SBC offering DSL at $26.95 for a 12 month contract price is not the same as SBC offering free DSL until all CLECs are out of business- then raising the price of DSL to $50 per month or completely taking it off the market to begin with.
Boogie | |
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