Re: I'm always amazed ... in http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r10642726 en Thu, 03 Dec 2009 01:37:38 EDT Thu, 03 Dec 2009 01:37:38 EDT Re: I'm always amazed ... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,10676848 The Folsom : Question: Are you aware of any ingress protection schema designed into BPL?

Hams and CBers with high-power transmitters might almost assuredly disrupt BPL connectivity. (I am both, although I have no high power equipment)

Any thoughts?
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"Maybe" is twice as good as "No", but only half as good as "Yes"... »www.folsomtech.com]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,10676848 Sat, 03 Jul 2004 00:37:21 EDT Re: I'm always amazed ... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,10654661 rf_engineer :
said by MazakGuy7 See Profile:
Then the fcc should just stop issuing ham licenses. Then we just have to wait awhile, then there will be NO one to complain about interference.


You'll have to go to the ITU and convince some 200 other countries to stop issuing licenses as well ( »www.iaru.org/statsum00.html ). After that, you'll need to tackle the other 90% of HF spectrum users which are the government, military, ships, and planes, among others.

It might be easier to deploy a technology that doesn't interfere.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,10654661 Wed, 30 Jun 2004 19:43:25 EDT Re: I'm always amazed ... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,10654174 Balzer :
said by MazakGuy7 See Profile:
said by sabersaw See Profile:
said by BigCreek See Profile:
well in the meantime, anyone who interferes with a licensed radio station should be fined.



Then the fcc should just stop issuing ham licenses. Then we just have to wait awhile, then there will be NO one to complain about interference.


Who said anything about ham radio?
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Televangelists are The Pro Wrestlers of religion!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,10654174 Wed, 30 Jun 2004 18:46:59 EDT Re: I'm always amazed ... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,10653352 rf_engineer :
said by techjoe See Profile:
That's the point it seems the !bpl gang always misses. The energy companies did not jump head first and turn all of the power lines into antennas for their tests. The reason the tests were conducted was to see in a real world sense where the problems still lie. The more and more I read on it, the clearer it is - All of this press and hype about BPL deployment was a bit premature. Obviously with the closing of the tests in Iowa, they now know specifics on where the problems are and what ways of getting around them will not work. Ok, back to the drawing board. Every technology has to start somewhere..Usually at the bottom plagued with issues and dead-ends. Hammers and their likes very rarely, publicly at least, seem to be willing to work with BPL authorities on a way around/to lessen interferance issues. They just sit back waving their license around crying for the most part. Sure they will be quick to point out that it's making noise on their radio/killing signals beyond recognition, but that is only the tip of the iceberg if this technology will ever be more RF-friendly.


Your reasoning would be valid if this was the first shut down. We've already been through this in several European countries and Japan. This is something the pro-BPL gang seems to forget. There's been six years of development and the problems that existed years ago still exist now. So the Cedar Rapids situation isn't some anomaly resulting from some newly discovered problem.

Your "hammers" term is demeaning, but let's move on. If you research this more, you would see hams were working with Alliant and they've worked with other carriers such as the one in North Carolina. Your "just sit back waving their license around crying" comment is unfounded, and quite frankly you don't have a clue about what you're talking about. There's been tons of FCC comments filed from Amateurs and many have spent countless hours taking measurements and creating computer models. It is not up to Hams to fix a private for-profit company's technology that is intended to provide them with revenue. BPL is allowed to operate under Part 15 as an unlicensed radiator as long as it doesn't affect licensed services. It's not the responsibility of licensed services to accommodate these services or help them out of a mess they created anymore than it is the reponsibility of you to fix your cable modem or DSL service.

What about the other 90% of HF spectrum users, those cited in the NTIA reports that have federal allocations, and those in aeronautical, maritime, and shortwave services? Are they waving their licenses around frantically, or does the NTIA have a valid complaint? If you look at the UPLC's comments, they for the most part oppose the NTIA's suggestions for prevention of interference. Where's the spirit of cooperation? They don't seem to be willing to work on a way around interference issues, as you put it. And they're a leading BPL proponent organization.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,10653352 Wed, 30 Jun 2004 17:07:33 EDT Re: I'm always amazed ... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,10653335 tenbase : Them: "Hey, lets try sending broadband signals over power lines!"

Us: "This is a bad idea, it's been tried before, the physics have not changed, there are better ways to accomplish this task, you are wasting your time."

Them: "How about a small test deployment here in Podunk."

Us: "This is a bad idea, it's been tried before, the physics have not changed, there are better ways to accomplish this task, you are wasting your time."

Them: "Hmm, it would appear that these power lines are radiating our signals into the atmosphere. Let's do some more testing".

Us: "This is a bad idea, it's been tried before, the physics have not changed, there are better ways to accomplish this task, you are wasting your time."

Them: "Gee, we sure are getting a lot of flak from a wide variety of users of this spectrum. Maybe we should do some more testing."

Us: "This is a bad idea, it's been tried before, the physics have not changed, there are better ways to accomplish this task, you are wasting your time."

Them: "Let's try a deployment in a different area, perhaps we will get fewer complaints there."

Us: "This is a bad idea, it's been tried before, the physics have not changed, there are better ways to accomplish this task, you are wasting your time."

Them: "LALALA! I CANNOT HEAR YOU!!! There is no interference! LIES!!"

Us: "This is a bad idea, it's been tried before, the physics have not changed, there are better ways to accomplish this task, you are wasting your time."

Them: "These hams are making it difficult for us to find out what has already been discovered every other time this technology has been tested. Let's dazzle the policymakers with big words...and maybe set up a few more 'test sites' while we're at it."

Us: "This is a bad idea, it's been tried before, the physics have not changed, there are better ways to accomplish this task, you are wasting your time."

who is missing the point again?
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I would kill everyone on this forum for a drop of sweet beer..]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,10653335 Wed, 30 Jun 2004 17:05:56 EDT Re: I'm always amazed ... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,10650585 techjoe : That's the point it seems the !bpl gang always misses. The energy companies did not jump head first and turn all of the power lines into antennas for their tests. The reason the tests were conducted was to see in a real world sense where the problems still lie. The more and more I read on it, the clearer it is - All of this press and hype about BPL deployment was a bit premature. Obviously with the closing of the tests in Iowa, they now know specifics on where the problems are and what ways of getting around them will not work. Ok, back to the drawing board. Every technology has to start somewhere..Usually at the bottom plagued with issues and dead-ends. Hammers and their likes very rarely, publicly at least, seem to be willing to work with BPL authorities on a way around/to lessen interferance issues. They just sit back waving their license around crying for the most part. Sure they will be quick to point out that it's making noise on their radio/killing signals beyond recognition, but that is only the tip of the iceberg if this technology will ever be more RF-friendly.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,10650585 Wed, 30 Jun 2004 12:20:57 EDT Re: I'm always amazed ... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,10650323 zoom314 : Well It's too late the anti-BPL Harpies are here already. Quick Run away... ;) So I hope that a solution can be found, But that may take some R&D and that will take some time and that's only If there is a Solution to be found of course.
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Proud to be a member of Team Athlonmb.com! Frogs rule! (SETI)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,10650323 Wed, 30 Jun 2004 11:48:12 EDT Re: I'm always amazed ... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,10650160 sabersaw : yeah, that sounds like a great idea.

but what about the other services in the HF bands and 30-80 MHZ.. don't forget Aircraft, Maritime, WWV atomic clock sync signals, Military Affiliate Radio System, WeFAX, VHF lowband (used by business and county/state/city utilities/police).

Also, toss out my first amendment right while your at it.. I don't care to listen to broadcasts originating from other countries.

I don't think so.

not for this snake oil, my friend.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,10650160 Wed, 30 Jun 2004 11:27:50 EDT Re: I'm always amazed ... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,10650059 MazakGuy7 :
said by sabersaw See Profile:
said by BigCreek See Profile:
well in the meantime, anyone who interferes with a licensed radio station should be fined.



Then the fcc should just stop issuing ham licenses. Then we just have to wait awhile, then there will be NO one to complain about interference.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,10650059 Wed, 30 Jun 2004 11:15:40 EDT Re: I'm always amazed ... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,10650005 ctceo : Interesting read.

I stand corrected. This does not mean that they will just up and can the whole project, as I stated before the project will resume at the right time. It just so happens that this was an ideal case in that the test bed happened to be surrounding the station claiming interference. I do not see this as any reason to cease all BPL trials and active areas.
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ASUS SK8N nForce3 - 8GB PC2700 - AXP 64 3400+ - nVidia 6800 Ultra w/512mb - CL Audigy 2 PP - WD SATA150 36GB + Hitachi GST 250GB - Plextor PX708A + Sony CRX300A - Dual 600 Watt PSU's.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,10650005 Wed, 30 Jun 2004 11:08:55 EDT Re: I'm always amazed ... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,10647468 Nighttime : Very intersting reading. :) Did I read something about they were doing something different that what they told the FCC? If so it should have been canceled period.

Its a failed concept. If you look at the formulas and theory behind a wire antenna and compare it to BPL. Even a poor EE would agree it makes no sense and they cant support their argument about how it works.

It would be nice to have a way for rural areas to have decent broadband but this wont work and is an empty promess that it can never fufill.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,10647468 Wed, 30 Jun 2004 00:33:52 EDT Re: I'm always amazed ... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,10647132 rf_engineer :
said by BigCreek See Profile:

So would everyone mind not doing the happy dance. There's not much to celebrate here.


I'm against BPL interference but I personally don't consider this something to celebrate. It is unfortunate this technology has gotten this far. There are potential customers that see this as a real rural broadband solution or an alternative to incumbent broadband providers. It is neither. Worse yet, there are people that have been hired by BPL vendors and carriers to support the product. The questionable technological outlook for BPL may not bode well for them. There are no winners here.

It's commendable that Alliant was working on the problems but decided to pull the plug. I do hope they come back to the table with a solution, but how about something like fiber with a wireless last 100 feet?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,10647132 Tue, 29 Jun 2004 23:54:18 EDT Re: I'm always amazed ... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,10647025 rf_engineer :
said by ctceo See Profile:
They have already begun to work on resolutions. Within the next few weeks to months a new plan to tackle the interference, will be put in place, and the project will start again. What I have not seen was proof that interference actually existed, so I'm with BigCreek on this one, Theres really no reason to happy dance over a minor stall in the inevitable rollout of a well needed product.

Feel free to post videotaped proof taken from that specific test bed, otherwise the case is closed, and the project will get the green light once again, and the legal tables will have turned because there will be no evidence to support the contrary in any FCC hearing.


Here's an FCC filing with measurements »gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retr···16214274 . As moonpuppy has mentioned, even Alliant admitted there was interference and was actively working on it. Technicians noted the notching was a "labor intensive" process.

{late night humor} Were you on the OJ jury?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,10647025 Tue, 29 Jun 2004 23:44:03 EDT Re: I'm always amazed ... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,10646355 moonpuppy :
said by ctceo See Profile:
Within the next few weeks to months a new plan to tackle the "alleged" interference, will be put in place, and the project will start again. What I have not seen was proof that interference actually existed,


Alleged interference? Even Alliant says there was interference:

quote:

Alliant Energy, in conjunction with concerned engineers, tried several approaches to reduce interference, including notching out or "power masking" the HF amateur bands, which the vendor claims is "labor intensive". Opponents argued the company should have interference sorted out before any type of trial was attempted, particularly since BPL emissions in some instances have had an impact on emergency communications.


Seems like a lot of work for something that doesn't exists. :uhh:]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,10646355 Tue, 29 Jun 2004 22:47:59 EDT Re: I'm always amazed ... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,10646280 ctceo : They have already begun to work on resolutions. Within the next few weeks to months a new plan to tackle the interference, will be put in place, and the project will start again. What I have not seen was proof that interference actually existed, so I'm with BigCreek on this one, Theres really no reason to happy dance over a minor stall in the inevitable rollout of a well needed product.

Feel free to post videotaped proof taken from that specific test bed, otherwise the case is closed, and the project will get the green light once again, and the legal tables will have turned because there will be no evidence to support the contrary in any FCC hearing.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,10646280 Tue, 29 Jun 2004 22:40:40 EDT Re: I'm always amazed ... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,10645172 moonpuppy :
said by BigCreek See Profile:
... that everyone seems so anxious to see this technology die. Are there problems with it? Apparently so. But we need this technology to compete with DSL/cable and to serve the dead areas.



Please, you think this will lower someone's bill? NOPE. DSL has gone down in price and all the cable companies do is up the speed past where DSL can go. Since BPL was near the same speeds as DSL, then BPL would cost the same as DSL so no price drop there.

said by BigCreek See Profile:

So would everyone mind not doing the happy dance. There's not much to celebrate here.


There is a lot to celebrate here.

A BAD technology has shown its true colors and now can be pushed to the wayside.

Also, for something with the speed of slow DSL, why would anyone want it? Unless it was the ONLY choice (highly unlikely), no one would want slower speeds for the same price. DSL is around $35/month and so are most BPL trials. The $25/month BPL wouldn't last long. Too close to the cost of just MSN or AOL dial up.

said by BigCreek See Profile:

Let's hope they can re-group and find solutions.

I, for one, want this to work.


If you can re-write the laws of physics, you are more than welcome to try. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,10645172 Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:44:53 EDT Re: I'm always amazed ... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,10643282 gurugordon :
said by BigCreek See Profile:
... that everyone seems so anxious to see this technology die. Are there problems with it? Apparently so. But we need this technology to compete with DSL/cable and to serve the dead areas.


Have you not been reading this board recently? Just why to you believe that BPL has any answer to the problems of the "dead" (meaning rural) areas.

BPL operators are faced with exactly the same problems as any other broadband provider - they have to justify their costs against potential income. They too have to install costly infrastructure to enable their service. In rural areas there is no possible ROI. So, why do we need it?

BPL is only viable in built-up areas, where there already is existing broadband availability. So, why do we need it?

BPL speeds can't match those of cable, never mind fiber. So, why do we need it?

BPL interferes with all other users of the HF spectrum, including emergency first responders and aeronautical safety, and prevents the reception of shortwave broadcasts, thus denying to the American people the chance to gain a perspective of world events independent of the sanitized version put out by the US media. So, why do we need it?

BPL has failed most every place else it has been deployed. So, why do we need it?

This is not tomorrow's technology - it is yesterday's failed technology. It should be placed in the trash can of history where it most firmly belongs. And yes, I am dancing at the prospect of its imminent demise.

Check out »www.gobpl.com for the facts about BPL.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,10643282 Tue, 29 Jun 2004 17:13:20 EDT Re: I'm always amazed ... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,10643164 ElJay :
said by BigCreek See Profile:
But we need this technology to compete with DSL/cable and to serve the dead areas.


The whole thing sounded like a bad idea to me, from the interference to the 802.11b wireless link into the house. I just don't see how it's a great idea to have broadband with the side effect of random garbage being broadcast into the skies.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,10643164 Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:59:45 EDT Re: I'm always amazed ... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,10643060 n2jtx :
said by BigCreek See Profile:
... that everyone seems so anxious to see this technology die. Are there problems with it? Apparently so. But we need this technology to compete with DSL/cable and to serve the dead areas.

So would everyone mind not doing the happy dance. There's not much to celebrate here.

Let's hope they can re-group and find solutions.

I, for one, want this to work.
No, we do not need this technology. Short of the BPL providers notching out all of the frequencies between 2MHz and 80MHz to mitigate interference, which would effectively stop it from working, or going around and placing shielding on all of the transmission lines, it is doomed to cause interference, period. What the FCC needs to come to terms with is the question about whether or not providing Internet service via this technology outweighs the destruction of the radio spectrum. They apparently seem to agree that it is but still need to sweep these nasty little "hiccups" with the technology under the rug. If there was no other way to provide broadband Internet, I would definitely say there is a problem and it might outweigh the benefits to having a clean HF spectrum. However, there is cable and DSL (and fiber if you are lucky), though the companies are not deploying it to many areas because there is no money to be made with regards to the investment they have to make in the equipment and infrastructure.

However, there appears to be another alternative besides BPL, DSL and Cable. If you take a look at »802.16 Ratified , there is an article on the new 802.16 wireless standard. It may be some time away but the Wimax idea looks perfect for rural areas without the HF mess caused by BPL. Stick up a large antenna and beam broadband to the entire community. Of course this will probably not be good in the truly rural areas where neighbors are several miles apart but then there is no way any broadband technology is going to be deployed in those areas anytime soon. In terms of investment, the only infrastructure will be the installation of the transmitting tower, the transceiver and the Internet equipment connected to the transceiver. End user installation will probably be no more difficult than installing satellite TV.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,10643060 Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:48:25 EDT Re: I'm always amazed ... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,10642760 sabersaw :
said by BigCreek See Profile:
... that everyone seems so anxious to see this technology die. Are there problems with it? Apparently so. But we need this technology to compete with DSL/cable and to serve the dead areas.

Let's hope they can re-group and find solutions.
well in the meantime, anyone who interferes with a licensed radio station should be fined.

This entire concept is flawed.. its just amazing to me how much effort they are willing to put into this before they cut and run.

be mad at the telcos and cable companies for not having the infrastructure they should. after you have paid to build them up.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,10642760 Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:14:59 EDT Re: I'm always amazed ... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,10642726 techjoe : Amen.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,10642726 Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:10:00 EDT I'm always amazed ... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,10642691 BigCreek : ... that everyone seems so anxious to see this technology die. Are there problems with it? Apparently so. But we need this technology to compete with DSL/cable and to serve the dead areas.

So would everyone mind not doing the happy dance. There's not much to celebrate here.

Let's hope they can re-group and find solutions.

I, for one, want this to work.
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