how-to block ads
|
Uniqs:
961 |
Share Topic
 |
 |
|
|
 alex4lifeAlex4lifePremium
join:2001-06-22
Delta, BC | ? I thought BPL was the same as Cable, in that fiber had to be laid to a point in a neighbourhood, just like a node in a cable system.
Am I wrong? | |
|   TransmasterDon't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus
join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY
1 edit | Re: ? for all of the info you need go here »www.gobpl.com
BPL is not at all like cable. Think of cable as a hose.
water or in this case radio energy flows down this pipe
there are no leeks. BPL on the other hand is a single wire.
it is like a soaker hose it sprays out in all directions
water, or RF makes it to the other end but much of the
RF energy is lost, where does it go, it radiates into the
environment. In other words no matter how you put it a BPL
transmission line is a antenna. BPL proponents might be
able to bullshit politicians, but they can't bullshit us.
We have been building antennas for a long time,
in fact most of the designs in use today we invented.
--
»www.gobpl.com | |
| | alex4lifeAlex4lifePremium
join:2001-06-22
Delta, BC | Re: ? said by Transmaster:
for all of the info you need go here »www.gobpl.com
BPL is not at all like cable. Think of cable as a hose.
water or in this case radio energy flows down this pipe
there are no leeks. BPL on the other hand is a single wire.
it is like a soaker hose it sprays out in all directions
water, or RF makes it to the other end but much of the
RF energy is lost, where does it go, it radiates into the
environment. In other words no matter how you put it a BPL
transmission line is a antenna. BPL proponents might be
able to bullshit politicians, but they can't bullshit us.
We have been building antennas for a long time,
in fact most of the designs in use today we invented.
I didn't mean it that way.
What I meant is, how does the data get into the wires?
I get the impression from all the articles I've seen that all that companies need to do is stick a signal into the wire, and *BAM*, everyone everywhere can get an internet connection by plugging in a modem.
Now, from what I remember reading, it isn't as simple as that. Doesn't the signal only go over the lower voltage lines, hence the need for a layout similar as cable, with a central node in each neighborhood?
--
"For in the final analysis, our most basic common link is that we all inhabit this small planet, we all breathe the same air, we all cherish our children's future, and we are all mortal." - John F. Kennedy | |
| | | | | Re: ? I hope the ham's can no longer use their equipment when BPL goes live. I am sick of their pessimism. | |
| | | | | | Re: ? HUH? Pessimism? TRY 'REALITY BASED ON KNOWLEDGE OF THE TECHNICAL FACTS'!
You need to know that HAMs made practical most all RF communication technology that we use today, everywhere!
You obviously know NOTHING about Amateur Radio, and what it has done for communications and technology. Want just one example? Spread Spectrum. It was HAMs who decades ago conceived of this. We invented, refined, and put it to practical use long before you were even born, judging by your immature comments. So every time you use a WiFi connection, you should thank the inquisitive, optimistic and inventive spirit of Amateur Radio operators. | |
| | | | |  Andrew JPremium
join:2001-11-09
Lancaster, PA | Re: ? HUH? Sure, and when you go to your Doctor please think of your barber. Because a hundred years ago your barber was your doctor.
--
If you give a little they give a lot. | |
|
| | |  Radio ActiveMy pappy's a pistolPremium
join:2003-01-31
Fullerton, CA
1 edit | Re: ?
From a ham to a brainless troll... |
said by Sunburn:
I hope the ham's can no longer use their equipment when BPL goes live. I am sick of their pessimism.
How about all the other services that use that spectrum? Do you know what other services use it, or are you just another brainless troll who likes to hate and bait?
BTW, BPL IS live in certain parts of the country(inasmuch as the trials are "live"). When it causes interference, we will simply up our output and take down BPL connectivity, to the point where subscribers will bail out and the BPL providers go out of business.
I, for one, will laugh my a$$ off when haters like you have to eat your words.
--
"Maybe" is twice as good as "No", but only half as good as "Yes"... »www.folsomtech.com | |
| | | | | | | Re: ? LoL, you hams are delirious and overstate your self importance. You think you are going to sabotage BPL with your tinker toys? Haha, lets see it Mr. middle finger  Then when you are arrested for your illegal act I will laugh my a$$ off when bubba makes you put that big mouth to work. Talk about eating your own words  | |
| | | | | |  tenbase
join:2000-07-19
Alexandria, VA | Re: ? illegal? how so? | |
| | | | | | | | | Re: ? said by tenbase:
illegal? how so?
How so you say? Why don't you and your comrades deliberately premeditate and conspire to commit an act where by you actively use your radio equipment with the intent to cause damage to BPL infrastructure. You don't think that would be classified as an act of terrorism? I would be careful if you don't want to spend the rest of your life in jail. Federal laws are very unforgiving.
Now if you are saying you really want to do this and don't believe me... just let me know; I am sure I can arrange for you to be arrested in the next 24 hours to prove a point. | |
| | | | | | | | | | Re: ? said by Sunburn:
said by tenbase:
illegal? how so?
Now if you are saying you really want to do this and don't believe me... just let me know; I am sure I can arrange for you to be arrested in the next 24 hours to prove a point.
Oooh another wannabe cop.  | |
| | | | | | | | zentec
join:2002-01-05
Monroe, MI Reviews:
 ·Charter
| One other point, thank you for bringing it up.
BPL is Part 15 device; it has to accept any interference. Of course, the BPL people want to change Part 15 rules and regulations so they are not exposed. But as it stands now, if a ham radio operator jams a BPL system through normal operations, tough tittie for the BPL system. | |
| | | | | | | | tenbase
join:2000-07-19
Alexandria, VA | You need to read up on FCC CFR Title 47 Part 15, particularly 15.17 and 15.113, before you type another word.
Conspiring? Conspiring to do what, operate as I have been for the past 20 years, completely within the limits of my license? If the BPL infrastructure is so shabby it is susceptible to ingress interference from low-powered amateur stations, then I refer you again to title 47 part 15.
As for having me arrested, here's hoping you have exceptionally deep pockets.
--
I would kill everyone on this forum for a drop of sweet beer.. | |
| | | | | | | | | | | Re: ? Just state what you are implying you want to do to sabotage a BPL provider service in detail please. Exactly how are you going to go about intentionally causing damage to their system?
If your so confident it is not against the law put your money where your mouth is so to speak.
Making a phone call to the FBI to report a terrorist threat hardly requires deep pockets. | |
| | | | | | | | | | tenbase
join:2000-07-19
Alexandria, VA | Re: ? I plan to operate legally as I have been doing for years. It is none of my concern what happens to the bpl infrastructure.
Your attempts to stamp the "terrorist" label on anything you don't like are laughable.
--
I would kill everyone on this forum for a drop of sweet beer.. | |
|
| | | | | | | | | | | KB2PSM
join:2002-08-06
Long Beach, NY | Isn't it a shame that BPL proponents did not decide to use the same frequencies that cell phones and home/car stereos use? Then, we could yell at all those who would be inconvenienced by disrupted terrestrial-based wireless telecommunications and complain about not being able to hear the latest rap song.
We can call them self-important snobs who should grow up, embrace the old technology of wired pay phones and that if they bought the latest XM satellite receiver, that they would not be playing with stupid AM and FM radios.
But, since most folks want broadband (and rightly so), it is easy for some to sneer at those who will be negatively affected (or concerned about the ramifications of interference to other services) by the poor implementation of BPL as long as those who sneer aren't directly affected. And sneer loud enough, so that the volume of the argument and the defaming of, lets say the hams, will some how have greater relevance than the facts, reports, tests and oh, yeah- physics too.
Of course, folks are entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.
Isn't it a shame that the proponents of BPL did not decide to use the same frequencies with a technology proved to interfere with and potentially disrupt public service agencies like some fire and police departments? Isn't a shame that they didn't decide to use the frequencies that have military value or keep long-range aeronautical communications going? Oh yeah, they are- but lets ignore them and focus on what some believe is the least common concern- Amateur Radio!
Some folks get so emotional that they dispel common sense and reality. This does not help to remedy the situation. I have yet to read any clear argument by a ham radio operator or any related organization that broadband should be denied of anyone...just that the power companies' desire to force their system to provide broadband is a bad one on many technological levels.
BPL - Broadband over Power Lines was not being promoted because it is a good, clean or technologically advanced technology- it was promoted because the power companies want a piece of the broadband pie and they will do what they can to use their pre-existing system to provide it.
Someone talked about Japan and how we should keep up. Japan as well as several other countries already tested and dumped BPL technology for all of the same reasons being presented here. Despite the geographical distances, the laws of physics still apply.
And someone argued that stymieing BPL will prevent it from morphing into a better technology. The truth is that there are already better technologies that rely on an infrastructure that is not as leaky as the power lines. Using or exploring any of these other technologies would automatically exclude the power line companies from getting their chance to share in the take. The relevance of BPL is specifically to the power line companies, whereas Broadband in and of itself would be a benefit to all. We need to be careful to avoid believing that criticism and concerns about BPL is equivalent to criticisms about Broadband.
There is a lot of technical data which makes the concerns very clear, but not everyone has the physics and electronics background to fully understand it. This is not an attack or criticism, but the truth. For someone like myself, who is versed and school/self educated in physics, electronics and radio frequency dynamics, the results are clear and concerning. Sometimes we discredit what we do not understand or believe does not directly apply to us, but again- the facts are the facts.
Finally, if the power companies want to grab a piece of the market to grab a profitable share, don't be so quick to believe that they will spend the losing dollars to repeat a BPL signal down the lines to the most rural of areas. For the same reason that the cable and phone companies have not done so, neither will the power companies...unless they are getting into BPL for purely humanitarian reasons.
IF, and that is a big IF, someone really wants to read and hear the truth (which sometimes is neither pleasant nor popular), there are some excellent technical sites on the internet, some of which have been profusely posted as links on BBR.
Shoot the messenger if you will...call him dirty names, think less of him and label him what you will...but the facts are still the facts.
Be well,
Rob | |
|
| | | | hedyd4uPremium
join:2003-12-16
Schenectady, NY | No matter how you say it these trolls will never listen. The bottom line is you can not reason with the pre- school thought process they posses. But I must say it is fun to read the comments pro bpl people make, still waiting for an intelligent one. | |
| | | | | | | | Re: ? FYI, this is BROADBANDREPORTS not hams r' us. This community is here to promote and help people find broadband, not to protect the extreme minority of hams.
Internet access for millions in poor and rural hinterlands is MORE IMPORTANT than playing with your radios. Broadband is becoming a service that people cannot live without less they be disadvantaged.
You are the haters as far as I can tell. We have put up with YOUR PARANOID TROLLING every time BPL is mentioned anywhere on the net. Take a look in the mirror and read the definition of hypocrite. I mean, I know you guys love Art Bell and conspiracy theories but you really need to come back down to reality.
As Hillary Clinton would say: We're going to take things away from you if need be on behalf of the common good. Now if you don't like Marxism too bad. Liberals will shove it down your throat anyway.
BTW - Your arguments saying the sky will fall when BPL comes are complete BS and fly in the face of logic. You think the FCC of all people would allow BBL to crash all electromagnetic traffic??? Hmmm? Ya, that is what I thought...I stand by my statements that you guys are plain paranoid and delirious when it come to BPL. | |
| | | | | | | | | Re: ? said by Sunburn:
FYI, this is BROADBANDREPORTS not hams r' us. This community is here to promote and help people find broadband, not to protect the extreme minority of hams.
This place might be broadbandreports but everyone is allowed here. And there are many HAM's who use the net too.
This place helps people find DSL, Cable, Sat. T1's and other means of connection (no0t just BPL.)
said by Sunburn:
Internet access for millions in poor and rural hinterlands is MORE IMPORTANT than playing with your radios. Broadband is becoming a service that people cannot live without less they be disadvantaged.
Again, this same argument. Face it, BPL, like DSL and cable, will not be deployed to the rural areas because of costs. Repeaters cost money and without enough people to buy the service, BPL won't reach rural areas any more than current means.
said by Sunburn:
You are the haters as far as I can tell. We have put up with YOUR PARANOID TROLLING every time BPL is mentioned anywhere on the net. Take a look in the mirror and read the definition of hypocrite. I mean, I know you guys love Art Bell and conspiracy theories but you really need to come back down to reality.
Every single argument against BPL has been backed up by pages and pages of facts. There is no conspiracy theory here. There is no trolling. The only trolling and hating is the people, like you, who say "screw HAM radio."
And how are we hypocrites? Explain.
said by Sunburn:
As Hillary Clinton would say: We're going to take things away from you if need be on behalf of the common good. Now if you don't like Marxism too bad. Liberals will shove it down your throat anyway.
Guess you are a fan of Stalin too. Kill all those who oppose you.
said by Sunburn:
BTW - Your arguments saying the sky will fall when BPL comes are complete BS and fly in the face of logic. You think the FCC of all people would allow BBL to crash all electromagnetic traffic??? Hmmm? Ya, that is what I thought...I stand by my statements that you guys are plain paranoid and delirious when it come to BPL.
I would say look at the evidence but obviously you are more close minded than an islamic terrorist. You can say what you want BUT the evidence is clear against BPL. | |
| | | | | | | zentec
join:2002-01-05
Monroe, MI Reviews:
·Charter
| BPL doesn't work the way you think it works. The power company doesn't inject the BPL signal at the generating plant and suddenly Jed Clampett has high speed Internet access. The process to make a BPL system is complex, involved and very expensive.
So expensive that I can't see how any BPL company can even imagine making dollar one in rural America. Spend millions of dollars to support a few hundred customers scattered through-out the backwoods of Kentucky. Uh-huh, sure.
No, the BPL types want to deploy it in heavily populated areas where they can get the customer concentrations up. Unfortunately, these areas already HAVE broadband. Worse, the cable and DSL companies will eat the BPL companies for lunch.
So what you have is a bunch of people who missed the first great Internet hype trying to launch a new one. It won't deliver the promised broadband to rural areas because it's just too expensive to deploy there (the very same reason there's no cable or DSL), and anyone with a community college education can see that it has no hopes of competing against cable and DSL.
There's the sad and stark reality of the situation. | |
| | | | | | | |
2 edits | Re: ? Myth busting:
There is no issue with HAM Radio interference. Show us proof that any one of the 5 competing technologies to do BPL in the USA cause problems. Show me the results from scientific instruments. None have an impact on hams. The level of power to do this is way too low. It is a small induced current, there is a signal created, but the range is just a few feet.
The antenna is very long, but in 3 of the 5 technologies the current is so small that they can not put it through the line transformers and have to go around them with special hardware. Hardly a level of strength that will interfere with hams!
In many rural areas BPL is going to be the only choice for broadband. More than 80% of this hinterland can not receive either Cable or DSL today...Prohibitive costs are another myth perpetuated by hams. A political campaign against BPL is what it is.... a typical campaign, full of lies and mindless beliefs intended to scare people into seeing things their way.
BPL is not perfect, if it was it would have been on the market years ago. But with over 15-years of studies and technical work, it is finally getting to the point where real people can try it.
So hams will have to get over the paranoia and quit crying wolf. The USA will not use the failed BPL technologies that have been banned in so many other countries due to interference. HAMS give the idea of technological advancement in a capitalistic society to little credit. | |
| | | | | | | | | TransmasterDon't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus
join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY
2 edits | Re: ? Sunburn you open your mouth, and flatus comes out. If fact
I think you are illegal according to the Kyoto accords for
green house gases. I don't have to comment on your facts.
You must have worked for Baghdad Bob. Oh and please Call the FBI they will refer you to the FCC, and we own the enforcement branch
--
»www.gobpl.com | |
| | | | | | | | |  halfbandPremium
join:2002-06-01
Huntsville, AL
·Comcast
2 edits | I am not a HAM so I don't have an OX in this fight, but:
said by Sunburn:
Myth busting:...The antenna is very long, but in 3 of the 5 technologies the current is so small that they can not put it through the line transformers and have to go around them with special hardware. Hardly a level of strength that will interfere with hams!
It's not current, it is power that counts. There is no appreciable current in an FM radio signal either, but you can still pick it up miles away.
said by Sunburn:
Prohibitive costs are another myth perpetuated by hams. A political campaign against BPL is what it is....
BPL has distance issues. The signal radiates of the long unshielded line (radiates power) which becomes signal loss. They have to add repeaters to redrive the signal any real distance. Don't believe that? Look up the longest run a BPL signal can make vs that of cable based systems. That's a lot of fiber to BPL converters, and repeaters to cover rural areas.
The desire for broadband in rural areas is understandable, but looking to BPL as the great hope is likely to be a disappointment. I don't care if they run trials. I do care if they try to get a rewrite the RF spectrum rules to serve their needs at the expense of all other users (and the users extend far beyond hams.) If BPL could be made to work it would be great, but don't hold your breath. Wireless shows much more promise. Don't believe that? Just look at how wireless dominates in-home LANS. Power line based equipment is available, but has a tiny fraction of the LAN market share not run on cat5. Why do you think that is?
--
Registered Bandwidth Offender #40812 | |
| | | | | | | | | zentec
join:2002-01-05
Monroe, MI Reviews:
·Charter
| Prohibitive cost isn't a myth from amateur radio operators.
I hold a master's degree in electrical engineering and work for a very large electrical utility. I can tell you that the costs are exeptionally prohibitive, just in the labor costs to install BPL taps. You'd be surprised to learn that many utilities will gladly lease out the lines and crews to do BPL, but only a few will invest their own money for BPL. That should tell you something right there.
Worse, they still have to run fiber to the embarcation of the BPL system and that costs money too.
You're spewing your opinions, which you have every right to do. But I can assure you, you're very very wrong. | |
| | | | | | | | | | | said by Sunburn:
Myth busting:
There is no issue with HAM Radio interference. Show us proof that any one of the 5 competing technologies to do BPL in the USA cause problems. Show me the results from scientific instruments. None have an impact on hams. The level of power to do this is way too low. It is a small induced current, there is a signal created, but the range is just a few feet.
There's open FCC complaints on several of the major trials in the US. Have you been keeping up at all with the news? Have you read any of the NPRM comment filings? Your paragraph is totally unsupported and wrong. There's documented proof of signals a mile or two away and the NTIA study found an impact to aircraft 25 miles away. A BPL trial in Iowa was just shut down due to unresolved interference issues. Do you have anything to support what you claim?
quote:
The antenna is very long, but in 3 of the 5 technologies the current is so small that they can not put it through the line transformers and have to go around them with special hardware. Hardly a level of strength that will interfere with hams!
Whether it can get through the transformer or not is totally irrelevant. Transformers were not designed to pass HF frequencies, hence the BPL signal is severely attenuated. Regardless if the signal is strong enough to pass through the transformer, a system operating at Part 15 emissions limit will have a peak signal strength of 30 uV/m at 30 meters. This will cause interference to any modern receiving equipment on the same frequency, period.
quote:
In many rural areas BPL is going to be the only choice for broadband. More than 80% of this hinterland can not receive either Cable or DSL today...Prohibitive costs are another myth perpetuated by hams. A political campaign against BPL is what it is.... a typical campaign, full of lies and mindless beliefs intended to scare people into seeing things their way.
Have your read the Tongia study »intel.si.umich.edu/tprc/papers/2···-PLC.pdf (appears to be down at the moment)? BPL in rural areas is a myth, an empty promise created by PR people, not accounting or engineering departments. I personally am not concerned with economics of BPL, but it's funny that many people are falling for the same type of hype we saw with cable and DSL in the roaring 90's.
quote:
BPL is not perfect, if it was it would have been on the market years ago. But with over 15-years of studies and technical work, it is finally getting to the point where real people can try it.
So hams will have to get over the paranoia and quit crying wolf. The USA will not use the failed BPL technologies that have been banned in so many other countries due to interference. HAMS give the idea of technological advancement in a capitalistic society to little credit.
It's interesting that pro-BPL organizations and individuals attack Ham Radio rather than defend their technology. Ham radio is a minority user of the spectrum. If you read the NTIA study, you'll see there's a myriad of federal frequencies involved that the NTIA is recommending protection for.
If the USA "will not use the failed BPL technologies that have been banned in so many other countries due to interference" as you suggest, then I guess they will be shut down all the existing trials and systems because it's pretty much the same technology that was used in the first generation, just with new modulation techniques and frequency agility, neither of which solve the radiation problem.
What is this "paranoia" you refer to? There's field measurements showing huge swaths of frequencies being interfered with. We have the attorneys of a leading BPL carrier stating that the interference is not "harmful" and shouldn't be considered so unless communications is obliterated. We have an FCC Commissioner that takes every opportunity to promote BPL, but has yet to see for himself the effects to communications equipment. The NTIA studied BPL in depth and came up with serious issues. And the BPL industry has changed its story one time after another about the interference issues. Sounds more like the basis for some real concern and not paranoia as you claim.
In summary, you need to do some research. Saying interference doesn't exist doesn't make it go away and there's plenty of evidence if you look. Your "myth busting" amounts to opinions with no supporting evidence. | |
| | | | | | | | | | | said by Sunburn:
Myth busting:
There is no issue with HAM Radio interference. Show us proof that any one of the 5 competing technologies to do BPL in the USA cause problems. Show me the results from scientific instruments. None have an impact on hams. The level of power to do this is way too low. It is a small induced current, there is a signal created, but the range is just a few feet.
You have been shown the proof, you just choose to ignore it.
Oh BTW, wasn't you who said this:
quote:
It's a fact not an idea form an ideologue foo. Truth/Fact's are not grey.
From your post in this thread:
»Beautiful America, Land of the Greed
FACT IS BPL DOES INTERFERE WITH HAM RADIO. There you go, in plain English and in black and white.
Consider yourself owned! | |
|
| | | | | | KB2PSM
join:2002-08-06
Long Beach, NY | said by Sunburn:
FYI, this is BROADBANDREPORTS not hams r' us. This community is here to promote and help people find broadband, not to protect the extreme minority of hams.
Translation?
ONLY discuss and critique Broadband issues on BroadbandReports.com IF you have something nice to say!
Don't share any critical information, concerns or disagreements about ANY Broadband technologies since that means that you are ultimately attacking the entire Broadband entity as a whole and that makes you a troll, paranoid and not emotionally attached to ANY technology in a warm and fuzzy way.
If you represent a minority of BBR subscribers as determined and compartmentalized by another user, you are not entitled to share any facts, educate or openly (and hopefully maturely) discuss an issue posted here.
The purely emotional fact-devoid posts do little to gain a better understanding of Broadband and BPL.
Do you think?
Rob | |
|
| |
|
