Re: Great in http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r11450293 en Thu, 03 Dec 2009 01:05:19 EDT Thu, 03 Dec 2009 01:05:19 EDT Re: Great http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11456025 Jason Levine :
said by KoolMoe See Profile:
Or...
maybe if all designers made all their pages standards compliant so almost every site on the net wouldn't render correctly in IE - perhaps MS would finally be forced to get their act together and abide by the standards?


Having a standards compliant site and having it work in IE aren't mutually exclusive. I'm working on a redesign right now of my company's site and I'm making it fully XHTML 1.0 Transitional and CSS compliant. There are a few quirks that have to be addressed here and there to accommodate IE, and I need to use JavaScript where I wouldn't need to with FireFox, but that doesn't mean that my site won't be compliant.
--
-Jason Levine
http://www.jasons-toolbox.com/
http://www.PCQandA.com/
http://www.urateit.com/]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11456025 Wed, 29 Sep 2004 08:20:17 EDT Re: Great http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11454193 TheMadSwede :
said by KoolMoe See Profile:
Or...
maybe if all designers made all their pages standards compliant so almost every site on the net wouldn't render correctly in IE - perhaps MS would finally be forced to get their act together and abide by the standards?


Are you serious? Would your business be willing to have a (at best) weird or (at worst) non-functional site for a few weeks just to make a point?

I think things like mortgages and food are a bit more important than sticking it to Microsoft.
--
Bipartisan politics has become a tallest midget contest.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11454193 Tue, 28 Sep 2004 23:15:15 EDT Re: Great http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11453771 Jason Levine :
said by Combat Chuck See Profile:
Here's the deal:
-from my experience IE will render pertty much everything, compliant or non-compliant
-"compliant" browsers( by which I mean non-ie because many of the "compliant" browsers aren't actually fully compliant) render varing levels of non-compliant code.


The problem is that IE doesn't support a lot of code that is standard. For example, according to standards, any element can utilize the hover pseudo-class. This can allow you to create roll over effects without the use of any JavaScript. Unfortunately, Internet Explorer only supports :hover on links. This means that developers have to resort to JavaScript to support IE.
--
-Jason Levine
http://www.jasons-toolbox.com/
http://www.PCQandA.com/
http://www.urateit.com/]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11453771 Tue, 28 Sep 2004 22:27:13 EDT Re: Great http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11453589 justin : IE has a number of outright html rendering bugs - where it does the wrong thing with the right html. the workarounds have been there for so long that people forget they are workarounds and assume that is just the way it should be.

as for browsers that try to do the right thing with bad html, yes, sure, but I'd prefer the browser made it clear that it was guessing. That isn't "vomit", that is promoting standards compliance. IE places equal emphasis on bad code as good code - to IE, there are just two (or more) ways to do the same thing.

html has to be unusually broken now to cause opera or firefox to not display anything useful vs IE displaying a good page. The list of sites that are unusable without IE are down to a vanishingly small percentage.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11453589 Tue, 28 Sep 2004 22:09:12 EDT Re: Great http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11453492 Combat Chuck :
said by KoolMoe See Profile:
Or...
maybe if all designers made all their pages standards compliant so almost every site on the net wouldn't render correctly in IE - perhaps MS would finally be forced to get their act together and abide by the standards?


Here's the deal:
-from my experience IE will render pertty much everything, compliant or non-compliant
-"compliant" browsers( by which I mean non-ie because many of the "compliant" browsers aren't actually fully compliant) render varing levels of non-compliant code.

I've been asking for about a year now, why is a browser that vomits when digesting non-compliant code better than one that handles it seamlessly? I'll answer for you it's not. And I guarantee that the things that IE does not comply to would be added fairly quickly if webmasters started using them.

IE does not write non-compliant html; webmasters do. Lets place the blame where it is due.
--
John Kerry- doing for America whatever it is you want him to do for however long you want him to do it; except if you didn't want him to do it in the first place in which case he never did it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11453492 Tue, 28 Sep 2004 21:59:48 EDT Re: Great http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11452949 nixen :
said by Jason Levine See Profile:
Of course, once they gained dominance, Microsoft made the exact same mistake that Netscape made: They all but stopped improving IE. So while the standards shifted, IE didn't keep up and is now out of date. Of course, it's still more standards compliant than Netscape 4.

Yeah, but at least NS4 had roaming profile support. That's been an open RFE since like 2000. It's never gotten solved since noone could agree how to reimplement it into the new Mozilla code.

-tom
--
"Some people have morals, standards and ideals about quality, but I'm an American: I couldn't care less." --Tony Pierce (paraphrased)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11452949 Tue, 28 Sep 2004 21:09:35 EDT Re: Great http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11452791 Jason Levine :
said by nixen See Profile:

IE, on the other hand, simply DOESN'T, or at least, doesn't conform to updated standards.


I think that's the best point. IE 6 hasn't been updated in too long. When IE 6 was first released, it was the most standards compliant browser around. The major alternative was Netscape 4 which supported virtually no CSS.

IE 6 rightfully gained market share while Netscape first tried to develop a new version, then scrapped it to start over, then got buried in coding for the next few years. For all intents and purposes, Netscape let their browser languish while Microsoft took off. (Yes, there's also the issue of bundling, but IE5 and IE6 were vastly superior to Netscape's offering at the time.)

Of course, once they gained dominance, Microsoft made the exact same mistake that Netscape made: They all but stopped improving IE. So while the standards shifted, IE didn't keep up and is now out of date. Of course, it's still more standards compliant than Netscape 4.
--
-Jason Levine
http://www.jasons-toolbox.com/
http://www.PCQandA.com/
http://www.urateit.com/]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11452791 Tue, 28 Sep 2004 20:52:55 EDT Re: Great http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11452675 KoolMoe : Or...
maybe if all designers made all their pages standards compliant so almost every site on the net wouldn't render correctly in IE - perhaps MS would finally be forced to get their act together and abide by the standards?
Sure, lots of folks would be mad for a few weeks, but I suspect most would finally switch to a complaint browser once enough sites replied to their rants with 'use a complaint browser'.
Boy, that would scare MS poopless...
KM
--
If Clinton lied, so did Bush.
Iraq Casualties | War Propaganda
Air America - Radio for the Rest of US!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11452675 Tue, 28 Sep 2004 20:42:15 EDT Re: Great http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11452662 Jason Levine :
said by nil See Profile:

Anyway back on topic, I think you'll be hard pressed to find a browser that offends more than IE when it comes to following standards.


Netscape 4. ;-)

Or did you mean recently released browsers? 'Course, if you did, that would eliminate IE also. ;-)
--
-Jason Levine
http://www.jasons-toolbox.com/
http://www.PCQandA.com/
http://www.urateit.com/]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11452662 Tue, 28 Sep 2004 20:41:09 EDT Re: Great http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11451515 TheMadSwede :
said by nil See Profile:
said by TheMadSwede See Profile:

er...nice er...but er...why er...do er...browsers er...not all er...follow er...standards.

er.


That's cute.

Anyway back on topic, I think you'll be hard pressed to find a browser that offends more than IE when it comes to following standards.


Thanks.

If you think I'm claiming that IE is compliant, I'm not. But I am saying that browser compliance doesn't mean a lick to users; they want their browser to work. The more browsers the users use, the more browsers we need to develop for -- that is, until all browsers only comply with uniform standards.

Since all browsers don't comply with uniform standards, it's a pain in the rear.

Anyhow, I must not have done a good job of 'splaining myself, but my complaint is against browsers that don't comply, all the while recognizing that the #1 browser that people use does not comply, but still must be developed for because it's the #1 browser that people use.

Whether or not IE is compliant is irrelevant. People use it, you have to consider it.
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Bipartisan politics has become a tallest midget contest.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11451515 Tue, 28 Sep 2004 18:43:34 EDT Re: Great http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11451182 ariez : didn't know that. used 4.79 for years (as primary browser) and still do at times but as a secondary]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11451182 Tue, 28 Sep 2004 18:07:07 EDT Re: Great http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11451101 nil :
said by TheMadSwede See Profile:

er...nice er...but er...why er...do er...browsers er...not all er...follow er...standards.

er.


That's cute.

Anyway back on topic, I think you'll be hard pressed to find a browser that offends more than IE when it comes to following standards.
--
Life is too short to be boring]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11451101 Tue, 28 Sep 2004 17:57:58 EDT Re: Great http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11450731 sporkme :
said by ariez See Profile:
what was wrong with netscape 4?


Really, really crappy CSS support. As in, feed it something that is to spec and the browser crashes.
--
Bush/Cheney '04!
"Patriotism is supporting your country all the time and your government when it deserves it."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11450731 Tue, 28 Sep 2004 17:20:15 EDT Re: Great http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11450663 nixen :
said by TheMadSwede See Profile:
I guess my point is that I'd LOVE to develop on pure standards like CSS2, etc. etc.; however, if even 50% of the browsers aren't compliant, then my work magically doubles.

Currently, about 91% of the browsers aren't compliant. ;)

-tom
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"Some people have morals, standards and ideals about quality, but I'm an American: I couldn't care less." --Tony Pierce (paraphrased)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11450663 Tue, 28 Sep 2004 17:11:46 EDT Re: Great http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11450661 justin : if the point of the article is that IE is losing its market share, and your point is that standards non-compliant browsers are a PITA, then you should be happy because one of the biggest contributers to standards-ignorance is sliding down the market share scale.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11450661 Tue, 28 Sep 2004 17:11:36 EDT Re: Great http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11450642 TheMadSwede :
said by justin See Profile:

Anyway the point is practically moot.


I thought one of the points of the article was that perhaps it's becoming un-moot. Which is why I'm whining like a big baby about this.
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Bipartisan politics has become a tallest midget contest.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11450642 Tue, 28 Sep 2004 17:08:01 EDT Re: Great http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11450596 justin :
said by TheMadSwede See Profile:

There's no point in writing to standards that browsers ignore.
The biggest offender has been IE. They should set the example, not show others how to dodge standards.

Anyway the point is practically moot. IE has hardly changed a jot in 5 years! having achieved what it thought was a stranglehold, and bundled the browser into the OS, microsoft simply stopped advancing its features. So as the world becoming insecure due to extreme homo-geniality, we also got hardly any improvements, because microsoft had other fish to fry with its free cash.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11450596 Tue, 28 Sep 2004 17:00:38 EDT Re: Great http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11450549 TheMadSwede : I guess my point is that I'd LOVE to develop on pure standards like CSS2, etc. etc.; however, if even 50% of the browsers aren't compliant, then my work magically doubles.

There's no point in writing to standards that browsers ignore.
--
Bipartisan politics has become a tallest midget contest.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11450549 Tue, 28 Sep 2004 16:56:02 EDT Re: Great http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11450430 ariez :
said by Jason Levine See Profile:
It's not like there's a sudden resurgence of Netscape 4. *shudder*


what was wrong with netscape 4?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11450430 Tue, 28 Sep 2004 16:43:05 EDT Re: Great http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11450394 nixen :
said by TheMadSwede See Profile:
Just what web developers need. More browser fragmentation.

I wish these companies would just stick to standards, regardless of the branding of the browser.

bah.

You know, that might actually be a valid point....

If it weren't for the fact that browsers like Firefox, Safari, Opera, etc. strive to be standards compliant. That is to say, so long as you code to established standards, your pages will render the same in any given browser.

IE, on the other hand, simply DOESN'T, or at least, doesn't conform to updated standards. And, the things that it doesn't support, tend to make developing basic content more time consuming (read expensive) and more restricted to just that browser. If anything, IE is the source of fragmentation at this point (shocking, eh?).

-tom
--
"Some people have morals, standards and ideals about quality, but I'm an American: I couldn't care less." --Tony Pierce (paraphrased)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11450394 Tue, 28 Sep 2004 16:38:43 EDT Re: Great http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11450366 Jason Levine : As a web developer, I don't mind if FireFox (and the other Mozilla variants) surge in popularity. It might mean more pressure on Microsoft to increase how well IE supports standards like CSS2. It's not like there's a sudden resurgence of Netscape 4. *shudder*
--
-Jason Levine
http://www.jasons-toolbox.com/
http://www.PCQandA.com/
http://www.urateit.com/]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11450366 Tue, 28 Sep 2004 16:36:01 EDT Re: Great http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11450362 TheMadSwede :
said by nil See Profile:
er.. web developers worth a damn code to a standard which every browser ought to interpret.


er...nice er...but er...why er...do er...browsers er...not all er...follow er...standards.

er.

Note: You said "ought to interpret"
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Bipartisan politics has become a tallest midget contest.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11450362 Tue, 28 Sep 2004 16:35:55 EDT Re: Great http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11450293 nil : er.. web developers worth a damn code to a standard which every browser ought to interpret.
--
Life is too short to be boring]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11450293 Tue, 28 Sep 2004 16:28:31 EDT Great http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11450251 TheMadSwede : Just what web developers need. More browser fragmentation.

I wish these companies would just stick to standards, regardless of the branding of the browser.

bah.
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Bipartisan politics has become a tallest midget contest.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11450251 Tue, 28 Sep 2004 16:24:26 EDT