| reply to larytet
Re: Ellacoya Are you kidding me? Have you read over the technical specs of what Ellacoya has posted on their equipment? Let alone I would assume this company would not let all the cats out of the bag publicly. I would bet it does way more then what it say's it can do on the website. If you think a single or even 100's of cable modems are going to make a dent in this thing go to town. I personally think you’re an idiot. Even so we have no idea what they are doing with or how they are using these pieces of equipment. Is there 1 device that does all of the shaping, or one per city, one per co, one per cable router? We have no idea how they are using them. I really doubt Shaw will be anything but secretive about this information as well. Read over the technical specs on the web site for Ellacoya and even see if you want to try it.
Come on give me a break. Yeah it sucks, our free P2P ride is over, and I personally have gone back to good old methods that don't seem to be shaped. IRC / and news servers. |
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| you probably are very wrong
i know how network processors work.
i am not talking about 1 modem and not about 100s modems
i am talking about 50K subscribers behind single CMTS.
The box is one per CMTS - this is the only way to reach reasonable performance.
they ARE keepin performance in secret and i guess there is a reason for this. they are not going to publish their test cases because they are not standing in the worst case.
my humble opinion of course.
news servers cost money
IRC does not support swarming
we are not talking about "free P2P ride". i do not care about copyright you download. this is not the issue here. the issue is that Shaw should provide service according the signed agreement and in the agreement there is nothing about bitTorrent or Skype.
what makes you to think that packets to/form IRC/news servers can not not be dropped ? It is even easier. It does not require Ellacoya - any CMTS can do it. Policy by IP destination and/or port number you can find in any base level router. And policy can be done with much better performance.
to all:
I think that I answered emails (3 emails only last month) i received from Shaw subscribers.
best regards
P.S. you can contact me by email with additional question if arise. |
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| reply to really_Are_you_that_
from ellacoya datasheet
Operators place the e30 in access networks
serving up to 64,000 subscribers. The e30 uses
Intelligent Flow Management techniques to
reuse individual flow table entries for multiple
TCP and UDP connections on the network. This
dramatically increases the effective capacity of
the switch without any loss of subscriber- or
application-level visibility and control. For core
network placements, the e30 can manage traffic
on a subnet basis with the ability to drill down to
the subscriber level on certain subnets, giving
operators maximum flexibility for placement on
the network.
....
For resiliency, all Ellacoya switches offer Soft
Bypass, which acts as a safety valve to protect
the switch from storm conditions on the network.
The 4-port GigE e30 adds internal Hardware
Bypass with failover circuits that form a virtual
wire between pairs of ports plus support for
external Optical Bypass switches for protection
against power loss.
...............
1,000,000 fully-qualified unidirectional flows
512,000 policy-forwarding flows
»www.ellacoya.com/products/Ellacoya_e30.pdf
i can translate it for you if you wish |
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| reply to larytet
Translaion:
you need 500 modems with 2000 TCP connections each to cause Ellacoya switch to fallback to "soft bypass".
Shaw subscribers can easily prove to Shaw that the company is wasting money when buy traffic shapers instead of improving infrastructure. |
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 IgnitePremium,VIP
join:2004-03-18
UK | reply to larytet
quote:
i am talking about 50K subscribers behind single CMTS.
The box is one per CMTS - this is the only way to reach reasonable performance.
No way and wrong respectively. Not likely to have 50k subscribers on a single CMTS unless it's *very* high density, a Cisco uBR 7246VXR fully loaded with MC16 cards will do you for maybe 6000 customers, to hold 50,000 customers you'd need 40 downstreams and more upstreams, even with QPSK 6.4MHz wide DOCSIS 2 upstreams.
One could quite happily place these devices at a traffic aggregation point, a router behind a number of CMTS, depending on the bandwidth demands and packets per second flowing. This is the most common way of doing traffic shaping where deep packet inspection is required, at transport layer as access/edge isn't an option.
quote:
Policy by IP destination and/or port number you can find in any base level router. And policy can be done with much better performance.
Really? In the Cisco case you're talking about NBAR, which is expensive on CPU. Routers are primarily layer 2 and 3 devices, with ASIC / PIC based switching and routing engines. Profiling based on TCP ports is a little outside the remit of most routers, deep packet inspection an even larger jump, and the only way to properly manage traffic, especially when talking about dynamic port services.
To say that routers are better at traffic shaping than a dedicated traffic management device which will have an ASIC or programmable IC tweaked for the sole purpose of deep packet inspection at wire speed is absurd. I would imagine if Shaw could shape large amounts of customers without spending out on an Ellacoya they would, don't you think?
Just to be double certain, what you are talking about is suggesting users do a DDoS on their own ISP's equipment. You think the CMTS will be able to handle that amount of traffic? On the upside it's impossible for a cable subscriber to generate a thousand packets a second as due to TDMA and DOCSIS timing restrictions a cable sub maxes at 160-170 packets a second upstream anyway. |
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4 edits | Not likely to have 50k subscribers on a single CMTS unless it's *very* high density, a Cisco uBR 7246VXR fully loaded with MC16 cards will do you for maybe 6000 customers 6000 ports CMTSs are not the only box available on the market.
In the Cisco case you're talking about NBAR, which is expensive on CPU. Routers are primarily layer 2 and 3 devices, with ASIC / PIC based switching and routing engines.
Agree on application awareness for routers. But it can be done in diferent way. Regular CAM memory can support lookup for 128 bits keys, like IP destination, IP source, IP port, TOS, etc. There is no problem to drop IRC traffic (if we want to filter ALL packets out and this is what i ment), because port number and destination IP are both well known.
To say that routers are better at traffic shaping than a dedicated traffic management device which will have an ASIC or programmable IC tweaked for the sole purpose of deep packet inspection at wire speed is absurd.
i never said that router/forwarder is good in traffic shaping, but it IS good in dropping packets according to simple rule like if IP port=6776 drop the packet ALWAYS.
Just to be double certain, what you are talking about is suggesting users do a DDoS on their own ISP's equipment. You think the CMTS will be able to handle that amount of traffic?
You can call it DDoS if you wish, but the nature of the attack is different. There is no significant traffic involved - actually i suggest to cap the connections by 1K/s. My suggestions is to create multiple slow TCP connections. Talking about CMTS it can handle theoretical worst case traffic. I can not beleive that CSCO CMTS is not wirespeed. I will give look to the datasheet later.
On the upside it's impossible for a cable subscriber to generate a thousand packets a second as due to TDMA and DOCSIS timing restrictions a cable sub maxes at 160-170 packets a second upstream anyway.
No need to generate more than 160 packets/s. regular TCP connecton keepalive would be enough. see above.
»larytet.sourceforge.net/howto.shtml |
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1 edit | reply to Ignite
btw why not to give this a try ?
i mean what are you afraid of ?
find 10 legal torrent files with reasonable number of peers (Linux distros are good)
start them all, limit the number of connections to let's say 5000 total, limit upstream and downstream to 1KB/s for each torrent, wait a couple of weeks |
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