 Jerm
join:2000-04-10
Richland, WA
kudos:2 | LCDs & Gaming - 20.1" 16ms LCD too laggy I just bought a Dell 2001fp 20.1" LCD rated at 16ms. This is the most beautiful monitor I have ever seen, and I love the 1600x1200 resolution in Windows.
One problem: I'm picky about my performance, especially in first person shooters. I knew LCDs ghosted, but all the reviews I read suggested 16ms should be fine - boy were they all wrong. For me, the instant I loaded up BF:V and right away I could tell something was wrong.
So I ended with my 21" CRT and new 20" LCD right next to each other, showing the same image and the problems became clear. The flat panel lags ever so slightly behind, to the point where its hard to identify enemies or pull off the required "twitch" moves in FPS games.
Sad. I was thinking of getting the 2005fp (20" widescreen, 12ms) instead but then I realized its not going to matter - 4ms better won't help, ANY LCD will be more laggy than a CRT.
Just the price you pay for being on the top of your game!
FWIW,
Jerm |
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 GeronimoPremium
join:2002-03-03
Newark, DE | Strange Ive got that monitor and I play Americas Army nightly... But ive never seen it ghost ever. I have a friend that has the widescreen version and he says the same. Maybe you got a bad monitor? Are you absoluty sure you got the 16ms version. I belive I saw on the dell site that, that monitor also comes in 25ms. |
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| reply to Jerm
Could be your card, its takes a little power to run BFV 16x12 32bit on a 20" screen, I have the same panel running in a Viewsonic skin and I dont experience any lag at all, they do make 8ms panels now if you are interested |
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| reply to Jerm
No problems playing CS: source and HL2DM on a 12ms 19" LCD screen.
And this is from a 19" CRT user.
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 vd853
join:2004-12-29
Brooklyn, NY | reply to Jerm
How many #ms are in CRT monitors? |
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Corey_TToyota Offroad Forum Owner
join:2001-10-27
Auburn, WA | reply to LBadvance
Which 19" one do you have?
I have a 19" CRT iiyama Vision Master 450 from around '98 or '99 that took monitor of the year and looks great, but have been thinking of going with a low ms LCD in the future.
Corey
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| ViewSonic VX912 for around $400. |
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 CylonRedPremium,MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County | reply to vd853
There is no "responce time" for CRTS's - it is purely a LCD issue. The only thing that can really construed as a CRT responce time is the refresh rate.
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Brian
America's Army Forum Moderator and America's Army Beta Tester |
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 RangerwJust A Simple ManPremium,MVM
join:2002-10-20
Orange, TX | reply to Jerm
16ms 19" Viewsonic LCD here. No ghosting in BF-V, HL2, ACEs High II, NASCAR 2003 and MS Combat Sim.
This is the games I've played on it since I purchased it a few weeks ago.
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Corey_TToyota Offroad Forum Owner
join:2001-10-27
Auburn, WA | reply to LBadvance
Thanks, just saw the post on the other forum.
»ViewSonic VP912B - Anyone Using it?
Looks like a good model that guy is looking at.
Corey
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vd853
join:2004-12-29
Brooklyn, NY | reply to CylonRed
So what's the best #ms for LCDs so that they can move as good as CRT? |
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| said by vd853:So what's the best #ms for LCDs so that they can move as good as CRT? right now 8ms is the fastest, there might be some panels with 6ms or 4ms this year and then start looking to Organic LED panels next year, which will have even faster response times, higher contrast like 1000:1 or better, richer blacks since they wont require any back-lighting |
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CylonRedPremium,MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County | reply to vd853
That seems to depend on the person. Everything I have heard always said to go below 25 MS - so 16 or 12 MS should be good and most people can deal with 12-16 ms just fine. Except for Jerm it SEEMS unless Jerm has a driver issue or something that caused his ghosting.
By how a LCD works right now - CRT's will always refresh faster - the big benefitrs of a LCD is crisper, brighter, more colorfull images along with they take less power and save on space...
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Brian
America's Army Forum Moderator and America's Army Beta Tester |
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 MrMasterjetsetterPremium
join:2000-12-16
St Thomas, VI
 ·Sprint Mobile Br..
·Virgin Mobile Br..
| reply to Jerm
said by Jerm:I just bought a Dell 2001fp 20.1" LCD rated at 16ms. This is the most beautiful monitor I have ever seen, and I love the 1600x1200 resolution in Windows. One problem: I'm picky about my performance, especially in first person shooters. I knew LCDs ghosted, but all the reviews I read suggested 16ms should be fine - boy were they all wrong. For me, the instant I loaded up BF:V and right away I could tell something was wrong. So I ended with my 21" CRT and new 20" LCD right next to each other, showing the same image and the problems became clear. The flat panel lags ever so slightly behind, to the point where its hard to identify enemies or pull off the required "twitch" moves in FPS games. Sad. I was thinking of getting the 2005fp (20" widescreen, 12ms) instead but then I realized its not going to matter - 4ms better won't help, ANY LCD will be more laggy than a CRT. Just the price you pay for being on the top of your game! FWIW, Jerm Are you using the analog or the digital input? Digital makes a difference.
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Jerm
join:2000-04-10
Richland, WA
kudos:2 | reply to Jerm
Why ALL LCDs - read on I really enjoy everyone's responses - let me clarify - how many of you are "power gamers"? I've been playing FPS games since the original Wolfenstien, online FPS games since QuakeWorld. I play almost more by instinct and feel than anything else. I can tell the difference between a lan game ping, low internet ping, and roughly every 20ms increase from that point. My point is: I'm picky.
My system specs:
GF FX 5900 Ultra 256mb, AMD 3200+, 1gb ram
I have tested games in both 1600x1200 and 1024x768
The monitor is on DVI, sometimes I use "clone" mode and put the CRT right next to it.
I am sure this is not a driver or card issue. This is an LCDs-in-general issue.
I can switch to one or the other (move the kb/mouse over a few inches) and I don't notice a difference in most games, just games that require fast "twitch" movements (BF:V, CS:S, UT2K4 especially).
Let me clarify, the monitor is 100% fine until you do an instant 90/180 degree turn or "twitch" type move. During that split second until everything moves at a normal speed again it is hard to pick out objects (ie enemies) - but on a CRT I can do this easily. Its almost like everything is out of focus past a certain speed (super fast motion) - and we're talking this speed is *really* fast - this is why no TFT can be on par with a CRT.
Most average players would never notice this: I have CS friends with this same monitor and they never notice it (because they camp, and always move methodically - not a twitch gamer). In BF:V you do NOT notice this in an airplane - because you can never move that fast.
If I wanted to play differently, and only move aim/move at more reasonable rates (like an average player) then this would be a non-issue.
As far as screen ms ratings go: The fastest large (19"+) LCD screens out there are all 12ms minimum (ie Dell 2005fp). LCDs have a rise/fall time, and people quoting 8ms are normally only using one value, not both combined (some manufacturers are cheating by placing only one value on their specs now).
This ratings are also the OPTIMUM values. Actual speeds can be upwards of 30-50ms going from some shades to others.
Moral of the story: If you are a gamer with top-of-the-server FPS skills LCDs may not be for you.
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Jerm
join:2000-04-10
Richland, WA
kudos:2
1 edit | reply to Jerm
Help me out! Run this program on your LCD! I just found a test program that shows exactly how LCDs perform on moving objects: (download Pixel Persistence Analyzer)
»www.prad.de/board/archive/9546/thread.html
Run the "Space Test" and you can actually get a ms value for your screen -> on the default scroll speed I got about 16-18ms on my Dell 2001fp. (red/white test) I would be VERY interested to see what everyone else gets! Thanks! Jeremy |
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| reply to Jerm
Re: LCDs & Gaming - 20.1" 16ms LCD too laggy I got 16 with my Viewsonic VP201s |
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 Al3sinthTrippin'Premium
join:2003-07-08
Charleston, WV
1 edit | reply to Jerm
Just bought a 17" ACER AL1715 12ms coming from a crt and I am impressed. The picture is very sharp, no ghosting, and plays games like a dream. |
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| reply to Jerm
Re: Why ALL LCDs - read on said by Jerm:I really enjoy everyone's responses - let me clarify - how many of you are "power gamers"? I've been playing FPS games since the original Wolfenstien, online FPS games since QuakeWorld. I play almost more by instinct and feel than anything else. I can tell the difference between a lan game ping, low internet ping, and roughly every 20ms increase from that point. My point is: I'm picky. My system specs: GF FX 5900 Ultra 256mb, AMD 3200+, 1gb ramI have tested games in both 1600x1200 and 1024x768 The monitor is on DVI, sometimes I use "clone" mode and put the CRT right next to it. I am sure this is not a driver or card issue. This is an LCDs-in-general issue. I can switch to one or the other (move the kb/mouse over a few inches) and I don't notice a difference in most games, just games that require fast "twitch" movements (BF:V, CS:S, UT2K4 especially). Let me clarify, the monitor is 100% fine until you do an instant 90/180 degree turn or "twitch" type move. During that split second until everything moves at a normal speed again it is hard to pick out objects (ie enemies) - but on a CRT I can do this easily. Its almost like everything is out of focus past a certain speed (super fast motion) - and we're talking this speed is *really* fast - this is why no TFT can be on par with a CRT. Most average players would never notice this: I have CS friends with this same monitor and they never notice it (because they camp, and always move methodically - not a twitch gamer). In BF:V you do NOT notice this in an airplane - because you can never move that fast. If I wanted to play differently, and only move aim/move at more reasonable rates (like an average player) then this would be a non-issue. As far as screen ms ratings go: The fastest large (19"+) LCD screens out there are all 12ms minimum (ie Dell 2005fp). LCDs have a rise/fall time, and people quoting 8ms are normally only using one value, not both combined (some manufacturers are cheating by placing only one value on their specs now). This ratings are also the OPTIMUM values. Actual speeds can be upwards of 30-50ms going from some shades to others. Moral of the story: If you are a gamer with top-of-the-server FPS skills LCDs may not be for you. Is that what ghosting is? I thought it was something else, like a mousetrail and not skipped frames. I've noticed this on my brother's LCD; if he's playing regular CS the game will skip a frame, but I thought it was due to lag. This LCD is two years old so it must have a response time of 25ms or more.
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