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 mers2Premium,MVM
join:2004-03-20
USA
kudos:8 | reply to SpyDie1
Re: ASW Vendors in La-La Land said by SpyDie1:Is it me or is PurityScan, MyWay and NewtonKnows not in that list? If you're referrring to Spybot S&D, I just checked and all 3 of those are in the the detections list.
--
"Think for yourself and let others enjoy the privilege of doing so too." - Voltaire | |
| Sorry, no I meant the Lavasoft TAC list | |
KyeU
join:2003-12-31
Canada | reply to SpyDie1
said by SpyDie1:Is it me or is PurityScan, MyWay and NewtonKnows not in that list? It's not just you. They're also missing for me too.  | |
mers2Premium,MVM
join:2004-03-20
USA
kudos:8 | said by KyeU: said by SpyDie1:Is it me or is PurityScan, MyWay and NewtonKnows not in that list? It's not just you. They're also missing for me too. Missing when I searched as well. Now I'd realy like to know everything they've delisted. This just trashes what little trust I had left in Lavasoft.
--
"Think for yourself and let others enjoy the privilege of doing so too." - Voltaire | |
KyeU
join:2003-12-31
Canada | It seems to be missing Gator... | |
mers2Premium,MVM
join:2004-03-20
USA
kudos:8 | said by KyeU:It seems to be missing Gator... Claria is listed.
--
"Think for yourself and let others enjoy the privilege of doing so too." - Voltaire | |
 ahulettLife Without WallsPremium,VIP
join:2003-02-02
Bellevue, WA
kudos:2 | reply to suzi
Re: Lavasoft response regarding WhenU said by Oremina9: said by dadkins:Ya know, ever since one of our own regulars was fired from Lavasoft, they sure have gone into the crapper. Talk about stepping in it! That thought had also crossed my mind, got to be worth a penny for his thoughts...and he sure as hell must be watching this thread.:) I didn't find out about this thread until today, and by Magnus telling me about it. I've been wrapped up in several projects along with class things, so my time around here and practically everywhere else online has been limited. But I'll take a moment to comment.
Let's go on a tangent for a moment. Often times I'm asked what makes working in the antispyware area different than the already established antivirus, antitrojan, etc areas. I think everyone already knows the answer from all the fake antispyware tools that have come and gone over the years. It comes down to trust. Trust makes or breaks antispyware programs.
For companies such as Symantec and McAfee, the trust is provided courtesy of the trust over the years from their antivirus solutions. To John Q. User, they see antispyware efforts from these places as genuine automatically. But, for small business owner's tools, there's no trust at all. To earn it takes years of trustworthy actions regarding the antispyware program's abilities, the openness with customers and critics concerning how procedures are established, decisions are made, and operations occur, moral and ethical practices, and other actions which we all know, to earn the trust of the public.
I should mention that I say small business owner because in comparison to giants such as Symantec and McAfee, these other tools are produced from much smaller companies. As a small business owner myself, I can take the actions of my company and see similarities in structure and activity of others, and from that, deduce that many are operating in the same manner. In actuality, the fact of whether a company is large or small is trivial when it comes to the topic at hand, but I felt it important to explain why I am using the term small business here in this context.
Continuing, once this trust is earned, the small business must work even harder to keep it. The art of public relations is comparative to walking on eggshells. There are a few right ways to go about it, and a billion wrong ones that are more easily deduced and followed by those in HR departments throughout the world. Even I have to be cautious about what I say. It's not a matter of keeping everyone happy, but a matter of keeping the respect of those whose trust I've earned. I think the majority here understand what I mean, not only from my explanation here, but from the numerous posts I've made over the years. And I compare it to eggshells because, again, if I let personal feeling override what morals and ethics show as being right, then I'll lose the trust I've earned over the years. It takes years to earn your trust, but only minutes to destroy.
said by suzi: Many times I've seen the notices include that something was removed, so I assume that is the usual procedure. Why not this time? While I cannot comment about internal procedures during the course of my employment, I can only offer the already known. While I was there, they were included. I'm not there anymore, and the removal information is not there anymore. I leave it to everyone to take that into the directions they choose.
And this relates back to earning your trust. By being deceptive and hiding such changes, it leads to being questioned about what exactly is going on, and here we have it in this thread. And once the damage is done, any attempts to correct it will be met with skepticism and criticism all the way.
I think everyone is beginning to see more into what's going on. The iron curtain's being lifted, so to speak. What's more troubling, though, is the numerous responses mentioning this similar issue over the past several years. This reminds me of a saying that I wish I knew where it came from, but if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck and talks like a duck, then... I imagine you know what the end is.
This is always a very difficult topic for me to talk about. Most employees when fired will do nothing but shout how the employer was a total jerk and how they were the sole great employee of the company. So, naturally when Lavasoft canned me, I did what most anyone would do. I was taken back by it at first, surprised that it happened, and once that cleared the anger set in. Anyone that's devoted themselves wholeheartedly to any project realizes the amount of time that goes into it, often involving countless hours, sleepless nights, arguments, gut-wrenching decision, etc etc. Lucky for us, the majority that devote their time to help others in forums such as this know all too well what I mean here. But, as morals and ethics have taught me, I should not place personal feelings into account when it comes to proper respect for something that in reality helps a number of people with something that has so few tools available to do so. I suppose I was fortunate that when growing up I was taught the values and morals that make me into who I am today.
But now the actions that have occurred here have caused me to evaluate the ethics and morals of this company, not as an ex-employee, but as a user of their software. As I stated earlier, when it comes to small business software, the company authoring the program must earn the trust of their users in order to become and remain successful. Fortunately for me, if I'm infected by something, I hold the knowledge to remove it myself. But for John Q. User that doesn't know, and depends on tools such as this for their antispyware needs, they need to be ensured that the products and tools they employ for such purposes are in the best interest of them, that the program will do as expected.
But now that detection of something that over the past several years has been a well known issue on John Q's computers is suddenly and without notice or explanation removed from definitions, the community has to sit back and wonder the motivation behind it. Was it a cover-up? Was it a pending lawsuit? Was it a kickback? Did it really merit removal, and if so, why hide it? What is going on? And that questioning leads to the complete revocation of the trust earned, and from what's been said here, the shaky trust at that.
I run a small business that's involved in several ventures. One of these is providing computer planning, manufacturing, installation, upgrading, and maintenance for several companies, including my mother's office where she does bookkeeping and taxes, and my father's office where he operates highway contract routes for the United States Postal Service. There are others as well, but since I have not spoken of them specifically before as I do not have their permission, I will refrain from doing so now. My time is strapped as it is, and when it comes to these companies' networks, a properly planned and deployed security solution saves me time, prevents downtime, and in the end gives a high return on investment versus costs incurred from a breach. In anyone's security solution, there is no room for doubt, and unfortunately, that is what we have here. Not as a vengeful ex-employee looking to spout off about being fired, but as a professional in the industry, as a small business that provides services in preventing security issues, and as a friend, I cannot recommend products or solutions that have questions and/or controversy about their morals, ethics, and/or effectiveness.
And as if removing items from detection without notification was bad enough, threads about such are disappearing from their forums. So not only has the company decided to hide from the public its removal, but has also decided to pretend it didn't happen by removing threads at their forums related to this topic. It's one thing to make a mistake. It's quite another to pretend it didn't happen, or cover it up, or whatever the reasoning may be. Again, I'm looking from the outside in as everyone else, so I cannot know the reasoning for any of these activities. I can only take what I know and deduce from that ideas about what's occurring.
And in the end, John Q's the one that's burned. They want to fire me? Fine, so be it. Honestly it's given me a chance to get back to what I really should have been doing in the first place. I'm one year away from my degree, and I'll be damned now if I let anything get in my way of that. But me being fired isn't that impacting in the big picture. Everyone may suffer in the short term, but eventually things get back on track and life goes on. Now this happens, and we all feel our trust was violated. This isn't the firing of an employee, this is the deception of their users. Just how did they expect everyone to react to this? Anyone with HR experience would have known, but it appears that skill is missing from their employee base, and it continues to shine in their repeated deletions of posts over the years concerning anything negative about their product.
And now what? Have we lost a useful tool in the antispyware game? Do we trust it anymore? I can't answer that question for you. That's for everyone to decide on their own. I can only tell you my decision, my choice, my feelings as I have above. And I give this bit of advice. In many things, the initial response is heavy, followed by the complete disinterest of everyone. If this is let go, it will disappear into the past very quickly, and in the future, if something like this arises again, we'll be right back here, asking how this could happen, and mention in so few words about what's happened in the past. I have no control over this topic's course, but I do hope that it's kept alive until the iron curtain is fully lifted, because it's clear we don't have the full explanation.
This topic warrants further exploration and discussion. I'm around if anyone has any questions of me, and I'll try and answer them to the best of my abilities. If you're near the Detroit area and happen to have an amateur radio license, you can find me on the K8UO repeater at 147.180 MHz with a + offset and 100 Hz PL. My callsign is KD8AVV, and I'm usually lurking while driving in my car (the only transceiver I have at the moment). We can arrange a time to meet on the repeater, or if anyone's hungry, go for something to eat at Buffalo Wild Wings or something.
In closing, I'm looking at a duck. If we're not careful, we may eventually be convinced that we're looking at a swan, when in reality, it's still the duck. Don't lose sight of what you see now. It's always been there, it's what's still there, and most likely, it's what will remain.
Aaron Hulett, President
The Press, Inc., A Michigan Corporation
Disclaimer
This post contains opinions of the author and are based on the information publicly available at the time of this post. This is not a finding of fact or a statement of fact, and should not be viewed as such. All trademarks are those of their respective companies. | |
mers2Premium,MVM
join:2004-03-20
USA
kudos:8 | Aaron, while you were with Lavasoft we had timely updates and were informed as to what was added and deleted from the database and why. Both have fallen by the wayside. I gained additional respect for you after you were fired in that you didn't go on an anti-Lavasoft tirade as one could so easily have done. I appreciate your thoughts on the current situation.
I am reminded as well that Lavasoft in the past has left it's clients in the lurch when it abandoned updates for several months without notifying it's users. Apparently the pattern of not caring about the client is carrying forward with the attitude we've seen in this situation.
It is extremely sad because Ad-Aware has been a good product, but if they delist known baddies without informing the user and the powers that be show a pattern of callous disregard for it's customers, I cannot in good conscience continue to use it or recommend it.
--
"Think for yourself and let others enjoy the privilege of doing so too." - Voltaire | |
 antiseriousThe Future ain't what it used to bePremium
join:2001-12-12
Scranton, PA | reply to ahulett
said by ahulett:And now what? Have we lost a useful tool in the antispyware game? Do we trust it anymore? I can't answer that question for you. That's for everyone to decide on their own.
... nice to hear from you, Aaron ... a measured, well thought-out post ...
... as for me, I DID decide on my own, and sent an email to 36 or so people I know ... since I'd discussed security with many of them, and recommended Ad-Aware in the past, I thought they deserved to know that I don't trust it anymore ... it still may be moderately effective in some areas, but their behavior has done exactly what you cautioned about in your post - it has eroded my trust in their motives and integrity ... I'm sure Lavasoft couldn't care less about my opinion, but some of those people may - and they may tell others, and THEY may tell others, and so on ...
... and I believe this is the Prime Example in support of a layered approach to security, proof again NOT to put all your faith in ANY ONE utility to secure you ... by what they did, and the way they did it they've earned all the reprobation that's come, and is yet to come ...
--
... "Nobody's perfect - well, there was this one guy, but we killed Him" ... Christopher Moore, 'Lamb' ... | |
 dadkinsCan you do Blu?Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA
kudos:18 | reply to ahulett
Like I stated in my previous post, "Talk about stepping in it!" They found the deep end! 
Many thanks to Aaron and the work he did when in the employ of Lavasoft! Many thanks to Aaron for his informative posts.
I thank Aaron for several other kind things he has done as well!  Take care of yourself Aaron! 
David
____________________________________________________________________________________________ ________________________
Lavasoft,
You have succeded in Royally pissing off a few people and lost ALOT of respect by everyone that knows of this! Trust me, I'm telling EVERYONE I know!(So are a "few" other people!)
What a crappy way to begin a year. Thanks Lavasoft!
David | |
KyeU
join:2003-12-31
Canada | reply to eburger68
Re: ASW Vendors in La-La Land »www.lavasoftsupport.com/index.ph···c=59013#
said by Mike:
Yes, we have removed WhenU (currently) and Myway (Previously) because they failed to meet our inclusion procedure threshold of 3 points or higher.
???
Failed to meet our inclusion procedure? That doesn't matter. What matters is that they didn't notify customers about the delisting of WhenU... | |
| reply to eburger68
So for the John Q computer user what are some anti-spyware apps that can be trusted , I use Spybot S&D and what others should I look into. (Did use Adaware but no longer for sure) | |
KyeU
join:2003-12-31
Canada | said by Catfisherman:So for the John Q computer user what are some anti-spyware apps that can be trusted , I use Spybot S&D and what others should I look into. (Did use Adaware but no longer for sure) Webroot's Spy Sweeper
Microsoft's Anti-spyware (*cough*)
More here:
»spywarewarrior.com/asw-features.htm#rec
You should exempt Ad-Aware and Pest Patrol from that list though. | |
 SparrowCrystal SkyPremium
join:2002-12-03
Sachakhand
1 edit | reply to Catfisherman
The bible for ROGUE anti-spyware aps:
»www.spywarewarrior.com/rogue_ant···ware.htm | |
mers2Premium,MVM
join:2004-03-20
USA
kudos:8 | reply to KyeU
Looks like Lavasoft is locking threads and stating the issue is resolved. I have a feeling it's going to be resolved in a way they didn't intend. This is looking worse and worse.
--
"Think for yourself and let others enjoy the privilege of doing so too." - Voltaire | |
 Doctor FourMy other vehicle is a TARDISPremium
join:2000-09-05
Dallas, TX | reply to eburger68
Posted the Spyware Info article to grc.spyware. Someone
else posted it to alt.privacy.spyware on Usenet. I replied
with a link to this forum thread. I'm off to Bluetack.co.uk
to see if someone has picked this one up yet.
Lavasoft has dug themselves such a deep hole that it is
going to take a miracle for them to climb out of it.
--
"Kayura or Badamon, whichever you are, you should know that I will never give up this battle. By the will of the Ancient, I shall succeed!" - Shuten (Anubis) from the Ronin Warriors.To RIAA/MPAA - You can sue but you can't catch everyone! | |
KiwiPremium
join:2003-05-26
USA/MidWest
kudos:1 Reviews:
 ·Comcast
| reply to eburger68
Had to bed down last night and wished I had not, though Eric has certainly been right on top of this and I appreciated the follow up from the back date link I posted much earlier.. and then some.
At this rate Adaware won't have to worry about selling their product, because if this thread continues and is melded into other forums; then It will make the News on television. Once TV/Newspapers gets a grip on what's happening with security, related to this issue -Adaware might as well close their doors, that's the effect media has ~Always looking to plug someone into a hole and Adaware has certainly profiled It's self into that realm.
There are several large corporations watching this thread already, that use Adaware; that small fact alone will guarantee media exposure.
The worst part of this is so many people recommended the product (myself included), I'm sure (But not certain) that Adaware has made It's mark in the past equal to MS in usage. So you better believe this will be a hot topic for sometime.
I feel for those people who actually have to depend on Adaware, as a security item, a lot of us in the security forum can fend for ourselves; but there are many who can't!
Just to clarify a point with Spybot S&D -There are @ least two files that are essentially spam, but can be deleted safely (Unchecked within the progo). Though once again the 'Trust' issue comes into play as the progo does state not to remove these files, though this group have not actually enforced any issues if It's done. Spybot may well heed what's happening here and not fall into the same bad PR trap. Those files appear to be revenue generators, more so than a problem to users.
Cheers
--
2.66g/533fsb Intel CPU @ 3.48g512meg Twinmos PC3700~466 DDR @ 2.8v -PCpower&Cooling 512.ATI 9500 Pro @ 9700 Pro @1.6v--AMD ASUS A7N8X-E ~2500+ @3200 ATI 9500 Pro, Corsair 512LL.-- Aristotle.net | | |
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| reply to ahulett
Re: Lavasoft response regarding WhenU said by ahulett:In closing, I'm looking at a duck. If we're not careful, we may eventually be convinced that we're looking at a swan, when in reality, it's still the duck. Don't lose sight of what you see now. It's always been there, it's what's still there, and most likely, it's what will remain. They seem to agree with you. In their latest installment on trying to save their a$$ they say:
"There is nothing different in the reason we add OR remove anything in our data base. We use the same procedures for determining if something should be added and stand by the same procedures when it is time to remove something that has changed what it does and no longer qualifies for detection."
Not a word about that all important item that's in very short supply right now: TRUST
I know I no longer trust them | |
mers2Premium,MVM
join:2004-03-20
USA
kudos:8 | reply to Kiwi
Re: ASW Vendors in La-La Land said by Kiwi:Just to clarify a point with Spybot S&D -There are @ least two files that are essentially spam, but can be deleted safely (Unchecked within the progo). Though once again the 'Trust' issue comes into play as the progo does state not to remove these files, though this group have not actually enforced any issues if It's done. Spybot may well heed what's happening here and not fall into the same bad PR trap. Those files appear to be revenue generators, more so than a problem to users. Cheers Whate files are you referring to?
--
"Think for yourself and let others enjoy the privilege of doing so too." - Voltaire | |
 salzanExperienced OptimistPremium
join:2004-01-08
WA State | reply to mers2
said by mers2:Looks like Lavasoft is locking threads and stating the issue is resolved. I have a feeling it's going to be resolved in a way they didn't intend. This is looking worse and worse. Judging from the number of visits this thread has had and the way the story is spreading, locking threads on their forum is another extremely bad piece of PR work.
Lavasoft needs some major damage control experts. | |
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