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Jackie_Chan
join:2003-01-05

Jackie_Chan to TheWiseGuy

Member

to TheWiseGuy

Re: Is Ool Throttling connections now?

TheWiseGuy
Hmmm, you think it makes sense for them to give a lower rate to the capped or throttled user, who is still their highest marginal cost user and is still using a lot more Bandwidth then the average user?
If they are capped, they are no longer capable of abusing the bandwidth. That is why i feel, a user should be given 2 options via email: Remain capped and have a reduced monthly bill because OOL can not meet the demands of the user, or opt to remove the cap and try to not trigger it while paying full price.

So really, once a user is capped, they are no longer the highest marginal cost user because they can not possibly be a burden on the network anymore.
Also, don't you think that more than a few average users, who don't use that much bandwidth, would be encouraged to download and upload an extremely large amount in order to be capped and lower their bill.
Thats a good question. It's a possibility when you look at it from the point of view of someone who wants a lower bill. But they would be getting less service. I dont think there is a benefit to being capped. A lower montly price may be a benefit but you would be getting hardly any real upload speed etc. So you're in a sense paying for a level of service that is lower than the max possible. I dont quite see how people would be uploading a lot just to get a lower bill. Please understand that suggestions i'm making are that IF a user is capped, they receive an email informing them and telling them what they can do. One of which is take a lower monthly bill while remaining capped. That user would remain capped until he or she wnated to be uncapped. And if that person decided to be uncapped 6 months later, that user's bill would return to full price of course. You make a good point though. The average user that would want a lower cable fee would probably try to get themselves capped in order to recieve a lower bill. Perhaps the answer is just do what verizond does with dsl. Provide people 2 plans. A $50 plan, and a $35 plan. If you get capped you automatically jump down into the $35 plan if you chose to remain capped?
Expecting a company to adopt a poor business plan doesn't make sense to me.
You're correct. I doubt they would either because they could no longer over charge their subscribers. What i'm suggesting is clearly in the best interest of the consumer and not the buisness. I guess that is because i'm the consumer And judging by our TOS.. the consumer needs to have some say in the matter. The secrecy should stop.

Even if they were not to adjust ones bill, they could still inform a user that they have been capped by email and give them all the information that may help them avoid being capped, and how to become uncapped.

I just think there is a better way to handle this that makes OOL look less like a bad guy, and gives the consumer a little more respect.

Thanks for the good questions Wiseguy.

Eddie Fios
@dsl.net

Eddie Fios to GeekNJ

Anon

to GeekNJ
So you're fine with a 33% drop in speed on FIOS? Ok... then tell everyone that has 9000kb down to stop whining when it hits 6000kb down (same 33% reduction). I'll continue to watch the FIOS here and lets see what happens if everyone's speed drops 33%.

Geek,
I was not talking literally, but figuratively.

I dont know exactly if there will be a slowdown, or how much. What I do know is that the pipes Verizon is supplying to us, are a heck of alot fatter than the one's that OOL is supplying.

I'm not happy with any slowdown....but if it does happen, there is not much anybody is going to do about it. As long as they don't CAP us behind our backs.

One good thing is this.....by the time Verizon is fully deployed, ALL of users will have TWO pipes to play on (OOL & VERIZON), so maybe EVERYBODY'S speed will be higher !!!

Hows THAT !!!!;)
TheWiseGuy
Dog And Butterfly
MVM
join:2002-07-04
East Stroudsburg, PA

TheWiseGuy to Jackie_Chan

MVM

to Jackie_Chan
said by Jackie_Chan:

So really, once a user is capped, they are no longer the highest marginal cost user because they can not possibly be a burden on the network anymore.
The problem is they still use much more Bandwidth, throttled or capped, then the average user and I have little doubt they are still the highest marginal cost user. See my post linked below for references on why I believe this is the correct analysis.

»www2.dslreports.com/foru ··· 12497381
I just think there is a better way to handle this that makes OOL look less like a bad guy, and gives the consumer a little more respect
I don't think anything OOL does would help much, users don't like being throttled or capped, and I don't blame them. I could explain all the business reasons that keep OOL from doing it other ways but since I'd be accused of defending them I won't. Most users who are unhappy with being throttled or capped, will be able to find something about it they did not like and rant about that, and I certainly expect them to rant, just like I expect OOL to act in their best interests.

I'm a consumer too, but as a consumer I expect businesses to make intelligent decisions.
ginovino
join:2002-09-30
Baldwin, NY

ginovino to OolOhnoes

Member

to OolOhnoes
Here it is for all to see, and maybe I missed it in earlier posts. but the complete pricing plan and details about OOL for Business = $110 per month... 10mbs up / 1mbs dwn 4x faster than DSL etc and so on.....

»www.optimum.com/business ··· ool_info

So they "appear" to assure high speed fpr nearly double the speed, but "no routers"....

comments please

This Thread Is Too L
@berlexnj1.com

This Thread Is Too L to OolOhnoes

Anon

to OolOhnoes
OMG! 40 pages of which the last 20 have been nothing but squabbles back and forth from the same 4-5 people. Is there anything new on the throttling issue???? I guees not.

SixSpeed
join:2001-12-24
USA

SixSpeed to ginovino

Member

to ginovino
said by ginovino:

comments please


OOL for business is the same service over the same lines with the same issues as any residential OOL user.

GeekNJ
Premium Member
join:2000-09-23
Waldwick, NJ

GeekNJ to This Thread Is Too L

Premium Member

to This Thread Is Too L
said by This Thread Is Too L:

Is there anything new on the throttling issue????
Yeah, there's no throttling.
Crypto_Bug
join:2001-05-31
Torrington, CT

Crypto_Bug to OolOhnoes

Member

to OolOhnoes
I wouldnt say there is no throttling. My speed test from this morning is:

** Speed 1590(down)/557(up) kbps **
(At least 31 times faster than a 56k modem)
Finish.

I guess I might as well go to SBC DSL for $14.99 a month if this is the speed I will be getting.

SixSpeed
join:2001-12-24
USA

SixSpeed to GeekNJ

Member

to GeekNJ
said by GeekNJ:

said by This Thread Is Too L:

Is there anything new on the throttling issue????
Yeah, there's no throttling.
............YET
Guitardude4
join:2005-02-11
Seaford, NY

Guitardude4 to OolOhnoes

Member

to OolOhnoes
Hey guys, My main post got moved to Rants (dunno why, I just described the FIOS installation). Anyways, FIOS is working great, cruising at 15Mbps without a hitch. Bonus on the side though, I noticed the box they installed had a video coax port. I asked the guy what it was for and he said that Verizon will be getting into the settop box cable business! Either partnering with or outright buying Direct TV, all those channels will be on a cable box in possibly August. Best part is you don't have to change the already installed coax cables in your house! Maybe I'll get my frickin' MSG back! Hope to see y'all on the other side.

Later,

the Dude!
TheWiseGuy
Dog And Butterfly
MVM
join:2002-07-04
East Stroudsburg, PA

TheWiseGuy to Crypto_Bug

MVM

to Crypto_Bug
said by Crypto_Bug:

I wouldnt say there is no throttling. My speed test from this morning is:

** Speed 1590(down)/557(up) kbps **
(At least 31 times faster than a 56k modem)
Finish.

I guess I might as well go to SBC DSL for $14.99 a month if this is the speed I will be getting.
The Throttling being discussed, is a drop in speed from 10 mbps to 3 mbps when downloading, which was experienced as a sharp drop somewhere in the 7-10 minute mark. The Upload speed was not effected. This thread is not about congestion which can cause speeds to decrease, it is not about packet loss which could cause speeds to decrease, it is not about problems with the CMTS which can cause your speed to be slow/etc. Your speed is very slow but does not seem to have anything to do with the throttling being discussed in this thread.

While it might be possible that they have started to throttle in a different fashion, a slow speed test in itself means very little since we have seen individual slow speed tests when OOL was not throttling. I assume you have checked your signals, cheecked your tweaks, run packet loss tests to the default gateway, etc. If not start a thread of your own. With those speeds, you should also call customer service.

Eddie Fios
@dsl.net

Eddie Fios to TheWiseGuy

Anon

to TheWiseGuy
The problem is they still use much more Bandwidth, throttled or capped, then the average user and I have little doubt they are still the highest marginal cost user. See my post linked below for references on why I believe this is the correct analysis.

Wise guy,

From what I have read here, most of the guys here defending OOL's position on capping/throttling (as well as some 90% of all OOL users from what I remember in past post's) are NOT heavy users. So theoretically, you guys save OOL money, and the alleged "Bandwidth hogs" cost OOL money (I don't necessarily agree with any of that, but I'm basing this on past post's about this).

That would mean it's a financial "wash".

Seeing as OOL has increased the price of OOL CONSIDERABLY over the last few years (somewhere around TWENTY bucks a month or so), their STILL making the BIG bucks.

Enough to fly a satellite up into space, enough to get "Voom" off the ground, and 20 million worth (Of advertising and lobbying) to prevent the West Side stadium.But not enough, apparently, to upgrade the OOL network.

Sounds to me like thier STILL making TONS of money....it's just a question of WHERE their spending it.;)

(Said entirely toungue-in-cheek)

GeekNJ
Premium Member
join:2000-09-23
Waldwick, NJ

2 edits

2 recommendations

GeekNJ

Premium Member

said by Eddie Fios:

From what I have read here, most of the guys here defending OOL's position on capping/throttling (as well as some 90% of all OOL users from what I remember in past post's) are NOT heavy users. So theoretically, you guys save OOL money, and the alleged "Bandwidth hogs" cost OOL money (I don't necessarily agree with any of that, but I'm basing this on past post's about this).

That would mean it's a financial "wash".
Depends how much more it costs to support the needs of a "heavy user" vs an "average user". I could go into a whole discussion on chargeback for bandwidth as my company does such things and though the folks that don't use too much bandwidth don't mind, the heavy users scream bloody murder. Seems fair to me.

How about we make up a number that it costs $3 per GB of data (bandwidth, infrastructure, labor, spare change to continually stay ahead of the curve and be prepared with additional bandwidth before it's a problem).

That means that for the "average" customer they would be allowed 15GB of data transferred a month for their $45/mo charge. Lets look at the "heavy users" now. Would they be willing to get charged $90/mo for 30GB of bandwidth used? What about $180/mo for 60GB of bandwidth used. What's a "heavy user" use per month, though they pay the "average" user charge?
said by Eddie Fios:

Seeing as OOL has increased the price of OOL CONSIDERABLY over the last few years (somewhere around TWENTY bucks a month or so), their STILL making the BIG bucks.
It's still less then what my parents pay and what other providers charge and we get higher caps. Are there less costly alternatives - sure. Is their price out of whack with what other providers charge - not at all.

jaa
Premium Member
join:2000-06-13

1 recommendation

jaa to Eddie Fios

Premium Member

to Eddie Fios
said by Eddie Fios:

Sounds to me like thier STILL making TONS of money....it's just a question of WHERE their spending it.;)
I think it is profitable, but to be honest I think it is a tough business to be in. Very risky - HUGE capital investment required to deploy their HFC network, and HUGE risk that it will be obsolete before they recover their costs and have to invest again. Competition is tough - DSL available at a lower cost; FIOS providing significantly higher bandwidth at comparable price with no caps.

DSL topology has inherent cost efficiencies - the copper is already there and maintained; all they need is some CO equipment and a pipe to the internet. Cable with the HFC was a good "intermediate" solution, requiring fiber and equipment on the pole, but not a complete re-do of the cable plant - but it does have shared capacity limitations in the cable plant (nodes). FIOS is a big investment, and probably has an order of magnitude larger (just a guess) capacity in the cable plant than cable.

What is the next move? Will CV go to Docsis 2.0, FTTH, or maybe do nothing? Verizon is making a big investment in FIOS - they hope to get enough of a run out of it before they get trumped by the next technology.

Eddie Fios
@dsl.net

Eddie Fios

Anon

JAA,

I agree.

In all fairness, CV DID take the leap, and brought us high speed Internet. That took big capitalistic balls.

I hope for everybody's sake, they survive. If they don't, then we very well might be back in the same boat, if Verizon is the new monopoly.

My biggest complaint was the way OOL handles the caps. I understand why they do it, I just don't like the WAY they do it.

But I do acknowledge they made the high speed Internet happen for all of us New yawkahs....and to that, they have my thanks.

TheWiseGuy
Dog And Butterfly
MVM
join:2002-07-04
East Stroudsburg, PA

1 recommendation

TheWiseGuy to Eddie Fios

MVM

to Eddie Fios
said by Eddie Fios:

Wise guy,

From what I have read here, most of the guys here defending OOL's position on capping/throttling (as well as some 90% of all OOL users from what I remember in past post's) are NOT heavy users. So theoretically, you guys save OOL money, and the alleged "Bandwidth hogs" cost OOL money (I don't necessarily agree with any of that, but I'm basing this on past post's about this).

That would mean it's a financial "wash".
said by Eddie Fios:

Sounds to me like thier STILL making TONS of money....it's just a question of WHERE their spending it.;)

(Said entirely toungue-in-cheek)
ROTFLMAO, that is some toungue-in-cheek analysis. It would take pages to discuss it in full detail and discuss all the factors involved. In many ways it is a Capitalist versus Socialist argument, do I pay for my use or do I have to pay for your use. It also gets into Oligopoly versus perfect competition, and then into an analysis of high fixed cost businesses and marginal cost. It would also need to get into the design parameters of the system the cost of upgrades etc.

So I'll try and keep it simple. For me the discussion would need to be broken into two parts. Upload versus Download.

To explain this, let's look at the analogy of a Buffet that has a side of Roast Beef being carved for the diners. When you download you are using your connection for things you want. So this is like a big eater having a lot of the side of beef. The big eaters demand is essentially finite and while the buffet might limit it and would have the right to, if they have stated they might, there is some logic in saying that my lesser use could/should/would pay for it. Whether I would support the restriction might depend on how many slices they limited it to, if that number were reasonable based on the cost of the Buffet, and whether they will supply more for me or simply say have some noodles.

To me when you Upload and I'm mainly talking mainly about servers/P2P you sending files/something to someone else. To me it is like taking the side of beef outside and giving it to people who pass by so the Buffet would need to cook another. There is basically an infinite quality to this use since you are feeding everyone else. As an example of this, the whole purpose behind Bittorrent is to reduce the cost of distribution for the original server, by using your bandwidth.

Now this is a fairly simply look at the issue. As Geek indicated part of it is the marginal cost of supplying more bandwidth, part is what segment of the market you need to please and keep.

This is not a new discussion for old timers here, we discussed it well before capping or throttling began.
»www2.dslreports.com/foru ··· ode=flat
al2005
join:2005-03-14
New York, NY

al2005 to guyver01

Member

to guyver01
You are right! And I believe that my memory serves me well, the last time I read it there was no phrase in parenthesis there (as determined by Verizon in its sole discretion). They are all trying to leave the complete freedom of action for themselves. The only difference is their actual current practice...

Eddie Fios
@dsl.net

Eddie Fios to TheWiseGuy

Anon

to TheWiseGuy
Wiseguy,

It's amazing how deep this conversation can get

It seems to me, a big step in the right direction would be for Optimum to make bit torrent and p2p a violation of TOS as they do with people running servers.;)

I can only imagine the amount of users (mostly kids) that are using these programs, and the bandwidth drying up instantly. I mean, hypothetically, that is very similar to running a server.

That MAY alleviate a whole bunch of bandwidth problems, and may even help towards removal of caps/throttling etc.

But then on the flip side, that may bring this thread into a whole new realm ohhhhhhh nooooo........I hit the "Post Now" button with my eyes scrunched together....
TheWiseGuy
Dog And Butterfly
MVM
join:2002-07-04
East Stroudsburg, PA

TheWiseGuy

MVM

said by Eddie Fios:

I can only imagine the amount of users (mostly kids) that are using these programs, and the bandwidth drying up instantly. I mean, hypothetically, that is very similar to running a server.
I was going to write my own answer but decided just use the FAQ.

»www2.dslreports.com/faq/3268
Kyusaku
join:2005-01-29
North Bergen, NJ

Kyusaku to OolOhnoes

Member

to OolOhnoes
Well I've been a customer with OOL for quite a while. I know it was at least a year before they were throttling upload. I think my account must have 3-4 strikes of throttling on record by now. I've managed to throttle my own bandwidth and I want to ask if I could expand that current limit. I mostly capped constant uploads to about 20KB/sec. Sometimes I'd go into 25KB/sec. Anyone know what is the highest and safe constant upload speed?
TheWiseGuy
Dog And Butterfly
MVM
join:2002-07-04
East Stroudsburg, PA

TheWiseGuy

MVM

There is a thread at the top, it is about Upload Capping. It is Part 6. They have been capping for over 2 years. It would be a better place to ask about capping, though the answer is no one really knows what is will keep you from getting capped again. I would recommend keeping the total Upstream bandwidth used under 256kbps. No guarantee.
blacknoi
join:2004-11-06
Stanhope, NJ

blacknoi

Member

Is this the longest thread thats NOT a sticky?
Kyusaku
join:2005-01-29
North Bergen, NJ

Kyusaku to TheWiseGuy

Member

to TheWiseGuy
Sorry for the off-topic post, and thanks for the reply.

GeekNJ
Premium Member
join:2000-09-23
Waldwick, NJ

GeekNJ to blacknoi

Premium Member

to blacknoi
said by blacknoi:

Is this the longest thread thats NOT a sticky?
Who cares? The only reason to make something a sticky is so it doesn't scroll off the 1st page of threads. If it's always at the top, it doesn't matter.

Lex Luthor
Mod
join:2000-09-17
Hicksville, NY

Lex Luthor to blacknoi

Mod

to blacknoi
said by blacknoi:

Is this the longest thread thats NOT a sticky?
The point of a sticky is that I want people to notice those threads because there's info that everyone should know about or to keep it at the top so that people don't start 1000 different posts on the same topic.

This thread doesn't really fall into either category (at least not at this point). Perhaps it did at the start, but it was so popular that it was always at the top without a sticky.

LiquidAlloy
Non Average Joe
Premium Member
join:2002-12-12
Toms River, NJ

1 recommendation

LiquidAlloy to Kyusaku

Premium Member

to Kyusaku
said by Kyusaku:

Well I've been a customer with OOL for quite a while. I know it was at least a year before they were throttling upload. I think my account must have 3-4 strikes of throttling on record by now. I've managed to throttle my own bandwidth and I want to ask if I could expand that current limit. I mostly capped constant uploads to about 20KB/sec. Sometimes I'd go into 25KB/sec. Anyone know what is the highest and safe constant upload speed?
Yea, 1mb a sec upload speeds, but since OOL is ran by a bunch of douche bags we r NOT allowed to use or "allocate" the bandwidth supplied by our WONDERFUL ISP. They r giving us speeds we r NOT allowed to use, so I say F*** OOL and their shitty service, scratch the back of my balls Dolan C*** SUCKERS

StreetSpirit
This spot reserved for Xenu.
Premium Member
join:2002-08-13
Roslyn, NY

StreetSpirit to optoffline

Premium Member

to optoffline
said by optoffline:

Ok you are an exception but I am very sure many of the people wining in this forum have other options. My post was towards those with options.
Yes, my other option is 768/128 ADSL or 768/768 SDSL for $225+ p/m or a T1 for ~$550 p/mo.

Other than that, dialup and satellite are also choices. Don't you wish you had so many options?

LiquidAlloy
Non Average Joe
Premium Member
join:2002-12-12
Toms River, NJ

LiquidAlloy

Premium Member

I have NO other options, to far from the CO and FIOS won't be available to me until another 6-8 months. Dialup is almost not sounding bad, at least I can pay netzero $10 a month for crappy service and not $50 a month for service I can't use, "NOT ALLOWED TO DOWNLOAD OR UPLOAD" waaaa cry me a river OOL

RDionysus
join:2000-10-03
Lindenhurst, NY

2 recommendations

RDionysus to Lex Luthor

Member

to Lex Luthor
What amazes me is that in the entire scope of this thread, how few people (save for a few savvy individuals at the very beginning, if anybody bothers to read back that far) have acknowledged the real issue here. It's not the capitalists vs. the socialists, or the big badass downloaders vs. the casual surfers or the OOL lovers vs. the perenially disenchanted, or the "lets sue Cablevision for throttling us" set vs. the "read the TOS for all the answers" OOL apologists. It is the fact that Cablevision, and Optimum Online proper, treats its customers with the utmost, disgraceful, most adversarial, foulest disregard of almost all the companies I've dealt with in my time. There is virtually no form of proactive communication or dialogue with the customer. That is because you are essentially presumed to be ignorant. That is the way they like it. UNLIKE Sy Sims, OOL's motto is "where the ignorant bastard is our best customer". Don't believe me? Go take a look at the hundreds and hundreds of pages of the capping thread. After all this time, still NO ONE knows of a simple solution to avoid being capped, save for the surefire solution of doing NO uploading. That's great customer communication.
In this thread people spent hours parrying back and forth, conjecturing why we were getting throttled, with nary a word from Cablevision. That's great customer communication.

Save for the people who inhabit these forums who like to "get under the hood", the vast sea of customers don't know whats going on. And that's by design.

The rapid growth of OOL was built from the ground up on the lowest common denominator: People who heard that "OOL is fast!" How fast?
"Man you should see it"
"But I got DSL.."
"Oh, man, OOL is tons faster than DSL..."
"..and did I tell you it's $29.95 for the first three months...."
And by heavily marketing this speed that's all there was to it. But that's OOL's only claim to fame; that is why they have practically no other infrastructure: their newsgroups are shot, their email system is shot, there is no web real estate for the masses, and no other frills.
But most importantly, there is no communication with the existing customer. You simply don't rate. Every ounce of their effort is spent going after new bodies, and the current customer be damned.
RDionysus

1 edit

RDionysus to Lex Luthor

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to Lex Luthor
said by Lex Luthor:

The point of a sticky is that I want people to notice those threads because there's info that everyone should know about or to keep it at the top so that people don't start 1000 different posts on the same topic. ...
With all due respect, if OOL surreptitiously throttling bandwidth is not "info that everyone should know about", then I have no idea what is....