Broadband Tech > Wireless Networking > theft!

reply to RandomDragon

Re: theft!

reply to CadesDaddy
it can't be theft if its not illegal... which its not
like someone else said, the worst it can be is a breach of contract, but if the contract allows it... then its obviously not theft.
the cable company was probably lying to you in saying that you got less pay because of "stealing cable" its just that the execs keep all the money to themselves and only pay people what they need to. Otherwise, they pay them the least they can.
Truely, if you were a manager, would you pay your employees that you probably don't even know a cut of your salary, rather than pay them the bare minimum to keep them employed?

reply to CadesDaddy
Okay, I ran this by my company lawyer and here is the bottom line.

1. Sharing something I am paying for with another person is NOT theft of service.
2. Such sharing may be a violation of the cable company's policy (or TOS).
3. I can have my service discontinued for violating their TOS but I have broken no existing law.

Bottom line - it is NOT theft but MAY be a TOS violation.

reply to sargeeld
sargeeld, your point #3 makes about the most sense of what I've seen.

Basically yeah, they can't put you in jail or whatever, but they can disconnect your service because you may be breaking the contract you signed with them. OK, some ISP's may not care, but I'm talking about the ones who do.

Think of bandwidth this way, and I've stated this in other posts in the past. In some countries you are charged PER MEGABYTE for your bandwidth. In those countries, I guarantee you wouldn't be so willing to share your Internet with your friends and neighbors.

What if the electrical company charged a flat rate each month, the same for everyone. They certainly wouldn't want you running power lines to your neighbors house.

And no, bandwidth isn't free. Have you priced a Cisco 12000 router lately? I don't mean a cheap Best Buy router, I mean a "real" industrial router.

reply to CadesDaddy
If I collaborate with my neighbor who has recently had their electricity turned off and, being a licensed electrician, install a branch circuit from my home to theirs to provide power for them on a temporary basis, all the work is up to code and installed safely, behind my meter, every kilowatt-hour they use is being paid for...

... is that theft?

If I collaborate with my neighbor who has recently had their internet connection disconnected or simply doesn't have one and I, being a certified network technician, install a wireless router or run an ethernet cable between our homes and connect it to my network, behind my cable modem, every kilobyte they download is being paid for...

... is that theft?

If you answered 'Yes.' to the first question, you need to read it again. The service is being paid for, nobody is losing money except maybe me if I didn't install a meter on the branch circuit I ran to my neighbor's home in order to know their usage in order to bill them, or if I did and they don't pay me. Either way, they are being allowed to use MY electricity that I am PAYING for. Nothing is being stolen. Let me make it clear then, that this is not theft.

If you answered 'Yes.' to the second question, you need to read it again and compare it to the first. Most likely we would be splitting the bill. If not, that's my choice and money out of my pocket that I am willing to spend. Either way, they are being allowed to use MY bandwidth that I am PAYING for. Nothing is being stolen. Let me make it clear then, that this is not theft.

As for being a licensed electrician, I'm not, that was said in a hypothetical sense. If the scenario were to happen and the installation of the electrical wiring was don by someone who was not a licensed electrician, this would be completely illegal, but still not theft. I only mentioned being a certified network technician as a parallel to being a licensed electrician. Doing a network installation such as this and not being a certified network technician is NOT illegal. Considering this, it is safe to assume that legally, you're safer sharing your internet connection than your electricity. Then again, this paragraph was meant to clear up a few things from the two hypothetical scenarios posed above, not to make a point.

reply to CadesDaddy
sharing internet is not a problem at all. let me make this simple, if you borrowed a book from a library is that theft? or if you paid a fine for it? the book has already bought it, and they do whatever they want. just like someone in this topic said, if you want to save money and invite someone over to share your heat bill or whatever, that is totally fine. i invite people to my house for Halo 2 LANs, they get cheaper electricity because my dad works for APS and we have the "timed" plan, so is that theft of electricity? no, i'm simply sharing what i have already bought.

oh by the way, if someone shares internet with someone else, they are more likely to keep the service. however, say i don't want it anymore because it costs too much, then i quit, and you lose me. if my friend is sharing with me, and i am sharing with him that its still 1 customer, but then its costs lower for me, and its not that inconvenient to keep it, why not keep it if its going to be $25 a month rather than a ridiculous $50? actually, none of this matters because in less than a week i'm going to be at UA...i hear they have a nice ass connection.

reply to CadesDaddy
The State of Nebraska has made their laws on theft of services pretty simple in that if you are receiving services including but not limited to cable TV or phone service that you should reasonably expect to pay for without paying it is theft of service. I would expect most states have something similar on the books.
On the other hand the FCC allows all of us to receive radio broadcast in our homes. The wireless signal that we are picking up in our homes are radio broadcast.
I live very close to our community college and could pick up their networks from my house. If I were to receive internet service from them I think they would have a very hard time making any charges stick.
As far as my ISP,Charter Pipeline, I never did sign anything nor was I presented with their TOS prior to receiving my internet service but I have read it on their web site and it clearly states that the service is for one house or one household. There is no question if I were to share this with another household I would be violating this TOS.
I for one think that I am getting a fair value for my monthly payment. I have never had my service go out for more then a few minutes and can't remember when the last time my TV was off.
To me paying for cable should be one of the little things, and if you can't be trusted with the little things what can you be trusted with.

reply to CadesDaddy
From someone who works in an ISP environment, let me put this into perspective. No, it is not theft of service nor is it illegal to use someone elses Internet connection, at least in our eyes. A TOS violation, however, it is...

The reason it can't be considered theft of service or ruled illegal, is because we provide you with an Internet connection, you pay us per month for a particular amount of bandwidth, what you do with it is your business (as long as it isn't illegal). If you link up half your neighboorhood and the TOS doesn't specify any regulations, go ahead... Because no matter what, you're never going to get more than what the rate-limit is set to. Simple as that. If you run down to Wal-Mart, get a Linksys/NetGear Wireless modem, hook it up and do not take the time to sit down and CORRECTLY configure the unit for WPA/WEP, you are asking for trouble, and in my opinion, deserve it. Documentation is there to be read, don't be a dumbass, read it.

Now, this whole thing can be a violation of TOS quick fast and in a hurry; our TOS states in not so many words that you can't do anything that would harm another user on the network. It's our policy that if you install a Wireless modem and leave it wide open, that COULD potentially cause a problem to other users, which, would be a violation of our TOS. Now, do we actively enforce this policy? No. But if it happens, we're covered.

Just my $0.02

JW

reply to CadesDaddy
OK, let's try this analogy:
I've got two laptops in the back of my car. I really only need the one I bought, but I was given another one by a friend. I accidentally leave my car unlocked and one gets stolen (considerate thief - he didn't take both). I don't even notice one is missing because, at least right now, I only need the one.
Is it any less of a theft because (as dumb as that might be) I forgot to lock my car (ie. didn't have my wireless lan adequately protected), or because I wasn't using that second laptop anyway (ie. really didn't need all that bandwidth - at least not right now), or because there was no out of pocket expense - I didn't pay for the extra laptop (ie. I'm not being charged extra from the ISP or "capped") or because I didn't even notice the laptop was gone (ie. most usere don't even know they're being leached) or because the guy who stole it thought laptops were too expensive to buy one (ie. self explanitory). Of course not! It's still theft, but it's theft from me - those were my laptops (ie. bandwith) On the other hand, if I loan or give one of them to a friend who needs it (ie. allow my neighbor to access my network) there's no theft involved. And regardless of the scenario, whoever I got the laptops from (ie. the ISP) has nothing to say about it either way unless I have a written agreement with them (ie. TOS) which says I can only use the laptops for my own personal use, in which case I may be in violation of that agreement and they may demand the laptop back (ie. cancel my service) but there is a big difference between breaking a contract and breaking the law. The only way I can see that a law might be broken - at least on my part, is if I knowingly entered into that legal agreement (ie. TOS) with the prior intention of sharing my laptop (ie. bandwidth) even though I knew all along that the agreement would prohibit it. You might be able to make a case for fraudulently entering into a legal agreement, but even this would probably be difficult to do. I really don't see where it's so difficult to understand if we substitute a more conventional item like a laptop for this newer, and perhaps more difficult to conceptualize commodity - bandwidth.

I don't see how a laptop and an internet connection can be compaired like that.
A laptop is more like a bite. If you only had two bites and someone stole them you might be mad, but you said your ISP was uncapped, so you had a flow of bites (or laptops) that are continualy being replaced as they are taken. So, to use the laptop analagy, if someone stole one of your laptops, another one would be provieded to replace it almost instantly.
Water or electricity better describes the "Unlimited" nature of your internet conection.
But, then again, I am leaching from a open ap right now...

reply to Jsolo
Your analogy is flawed. Taking something from you that you own, without your permission, (ie. the laptop)is theft. Taking something from you that you own and willingly share with me (ie. your internet) is not theft.

reply to CadesDaddy
Under the same roof? I don't believe it's right to charge extra. How do you determine how much each device is using the service without a meter? I view it like electricity -- all my appliances and electronics are all connected to one incoming source. I pay for the use of the connection, not for each device I plug in. If I run an extension cord into my house from an outside source in order to get free electricity without permission, then I'm stealing.

Without a meter (and I would question one provided exclusively from the cable company without a way to verify it) I don't see how it can be ethical to charge for each device instead of usage.

BTW- I'm looking at installing solar panels. Am I stealing from the electric company?

reply to BronsCon

reply to CadesDaddy
A lot of people will share costs for garbage pickup at one address. It's not illegal as long as the volume of trash falls under guidelines. This is no different.
Seeing as how ISPs will cap you if you exceed what they consider a single customer's usage limit, I see no problem with collaborated connection sharing as long as ISPs maintain bandwidth caps.

reply to CadesDaddy
It is very Simple.

Local State and Federal Law define what theft is and is not. Several States have enacted "Theft of Service" laws. These same laws also allow for reselling of said service under certain conditions, usually if spelled out in the TOS then it ok Otherwise it is not.

The contract between you and your ISP define what your TOS are and are not consistent with the existing Local, State and Federal Laws. So if you breach your TOS then you in default of contract and that is not a crime. How ever if you live in an area where those "Theft of Service" laws exist then you have also broken the law, by breaching the contract with your ISP/ Cable company/ service provider.

If you want to become a local ISP to you neighbors their are legal ways to do that. By the way the MONOPOLY that most CABLE companies have is for distribution of TV over a CABLE plant.... If you were to setup a wireless distribution of TV content, not using Cable transmission technologies and did not interfere with their cable plant, and did not build a competing cable plant (that is the phone companies problem, and why they do not sell TV content over DSL) then you may actually be able to compete with he cable companies....

If the last mile were to be some sort of Wireless technology, and the TV content were digitally encoded in a different manor that what is used by the cable companies. what would keep you from competing with them and the phone company? - their lawyers would of course hit you with thousands of LBS of legal paper work in the hops of delaying and maybe even stopping you....

-jeff

reply to CadesDaddy
CadesDaddy,

Ummm, who gives a shit who shares what with whom? If i bring my laptop into a Panera bread or Starbucks, I get free wi-fi. They pay one price no matter how many people access it. And as for neighbors accessing my wi-fi, well, shit, if they are smart enough to do it, I can't stop them...well, I could easily, but unless they are inconveniencing me, I dont really care. I'd prefer if you played hippocrit somewhere else. You think you are good just because you "deleted" (yeah right, sure you did) your downloaded music? *cough, cough bullshit, cough* Good for you if you did. I'll give you a cookie. Why don't you worry about yourself. Too many people in this damn country are worried about what everybody else is doing. Quit playing police and mind your own damn business!!

_Danyael

reply to sargeeld
I agree, as I said, if I give or loan you my laptop, it is no more of a theft than if I willingly give you access to my internet connection. But if you take my bandwidth, which I am paying for, without my permission, whether or not I happen to need it all right now or not, it is no different than taking that extra laptop. You are stealing some of my bandwidth, but you are stealing it from me, not my ISP, because I am the one who paid for it's use.