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| | Can Unlimited ever be true? Is there a reasonable amount that would separate "normal" residential usage from business class service?
I am not trying to defend RocketVoIP and the 1150 minutes/month rule, but is it reasonable to have a rule defining what unlimited means to a residential customer?
I think creating a cap is reasonable. It may be considered abuse if you were using 40,000 + minutes per month. That obviously was not the intent of the product sold, but what is a reasonable definition of "unlimited" usage on a residential line.
From the feedback above it is clear 1,150 minutes per month is not fair, but were is the reasonable line? 2,500, 5,000, 10,000 minutes?
I think the company that balances monthly price with a reasonable definition of unlimited for the residential user will ultimately be successful. As with any product we vote through our walets...
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If it is not recorded, it simply does not exist. | |
|   toddbs98
join:2000-07-08
North Little Rock, AR | Re: Can Unlimited ever be true? No cap would be reasonable on anything sold as unlimited. The word unlimited means without limits. A cap is a limit. Where this scam company covers their ass is "WQN reserves the right to immediately terminate or modify the Service, if WQN determines, in its sole discretion, that Customer's Service is being used for non-residential or commercial use." They don't have to have any proof what so ever.
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If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to man as it is, infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thru' chinks of his cavern.- Blake | |
| | | As someone that has worked in marketing it really comes down to your numbers. If you can work the averages and get to a point where your high-end users are not killing your bottom line they should be able to provided true Unlimited service. I currently have Lingo’s $19.95 residential plan and I have not had any issues with there service. My fiancee is from Europe and she will call more than once a week and spend about 5 hours on the phone to Germany. As far as I’m considered this is normal usage plus all of our calls within the country to family and friends. | |
| RadioDoc58ef2c0Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11 | said by Dezbend:but is it reasonable to have a rule defining what unlimited means to a residential customer? [...] but what is a reasonable definition of "unlimited" usage on a residential line. [...] but were is the reasonable line? 2,500, 5,000, 10,000 minutes? [...] a reasonable definition of unlimited for the residential user A "reasonable" definition of "unlimited" is "without limits". If they have no intention of providing "unlimited" service then they should not advertise unlimited service.
God. George Orwell was right.
I can't believe anyone is defending this practice. We're doomed.  | |
| |  mrchrisOut and aroundPremium
join:2002-10-01
North Babylon, NY | Re: Can Unlimited ever be true? JoshNJ is just a Corporate America mouthpiece and defender  (RIAAcoughcough)
On the topic, yes 19 hours out of 1070ish is NOT excessive. | |
| | | | said by RadioDoc:A "reasonable" definition of "unlimited" is "without limits". If they have no intention of providing "unlimited" service then they should not advertise unlimited service. If I sell you something unlimited - lets say a buffet style dinner - there will be some assumed limits.
1. you are not sharing (or reselling to) with non-paying guests
2. you physically could not eat more than I could make
3. you would leave when the resturant closed
4. and typically you can not take the food with you
The analogy is not perfect, but there would be some reasonable limits on any "unlimited" service. If you believe that you truely can get an unlimited service of any kind, it does not seem to me you have both feet in reality.
I have read some of your other posts and I believe you to be reasonable well thought individual, but you are losing sight of reality on this one.
What is the VoIP company to think if you use 89,280 hours in a month?
Probably you are calling one party then using a conference feature (like 3-way calling) to connect another party and then leaving the connection live 24-7. This is akin to feeding non-paying guests in the buffet. Would this be unreasonable? and if so we have set limits on the unlimited service and must figure out exactly what unlimited is to mean to the industry.
btw I have "unlimited" long distance via my long distance company, but they reserve the right to review the usage if I use over 5,000 minutes a month. If it appears my usage is not consitant with residential usage my plan can be terminated or assessed an additional $50 fee. I knew up front these terms and agreed to them. Like I said in my first post - I am not trying to defend the particular company in question, but I do believe it is naive nay it is unreasonable to expect true unlimited usage on a residential VoIP plan.
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If it is not recorded, it simply does not exist. | |
| | | toddbs98
join:2000-07-08
North Little Rock, AR | Re: Can Unlimited ever be true? Your analogy doesn't fit here at all. Unlimited in this case should mean I can talk on the phone as much as I want as long as I want without restriction. If I chose to make a phone call and it last for 30 straight days as long as it isn't business then it should be allowed since that is what they are selling. It is not unreasonable to expect unlimited usage of a service if that's how it is sold. | |
| | | | | | Re: Can Unlimited ever be true? said by toddbs98:Your analogy doesn't fit here at all. Unlimited in this case should mean I can talk on the phone as much as I want as long as I want without restriction. If I chose to make a phone call and it last for 30 straight days as long as it isn't business then it should be allowed since that is what they are selling. It is not unreasonable to expect unlimited usage of a service if that's how it is sold. I concede your point maybe 30 days (x 24 hours per day or 43,200 minutes) is a reasonable limit on unlimited residential VoIP service.
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If it is not recorded, it simply does not exist. | |
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| | RadioDoc58ef2c0Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11 | A buffet-style dinner is a poor example. But I'll play:
1) This is irrelevant. That is not "residential use" and the company would be within it's rights to cut me off. However, if I have houseguests and they use the phone, that is legitimate "residential" use.
2) This is irrelevant. The VoIP company does not "make" anything.
3) This is irrelevant. The VoIP company does not "close".
4) This is irrelevant. The VoIP company does not specify the location from which you use the service. In fact, some encourage you to take it on the road.
The "reality" that my feet are touching is one where a company which advertises "unlimited" service--which a normal, thinking person would expect to be "anytime I feel like making a phone call". Limiting someone to less than 40 minutes a day is ridiculous. Before I was married my now-wife and I used to run up 45-90 minutes on the on the phone every night. That is definitely "residential" use. If there are teenagers in the house they may rack up four times that.
This all comes down to intent. If the company has no intent of actually providing the unlimited service they advertise, they have no business using words like "unlimited" to describe it. This is not a matter of advertising hyperbole. It's one of basic honesty and proper business practices. This particular issue will kill off these small VoIP companies as soon as enough FTC complaints are lodged. The whole thing smells of scam.
In the best light, these companies came into this with what is evidently a fatally flawed business plan. I suspect, however, that it's the 2000 CLEC nonsense all over again, with the company's principals milking as many cash cows they can lure into the barn, and the company's principles buried in the dung pile.
Sorry, but if they are going to advertise "unlimited" residential use, they better be ready for real-life residential use. | |
| | |  shollingPremium
join:2002-02-13
Hemet, CA
kudos:1
 ·Verizon FiOS
| said by Dezbend:said by RadioDoc:A "reasonable" definition of "unlimited" is "without limits". If they have no intention of providing "unlimited" service then they should not advertise unlimited service. If I sell you something unlimited - lets say a buffet style dinner - there will be some assumed limits. 1. you are not sharing (or reselling to) with non-paying guests 2. you physically could not eat more than I could make 3. you would leave when the resturant closed 4. and typically you can not take the food with you The analogy is not perfect, but there would be some reasonable limits on any "unlimited" service. If you believe that you truely can get an unlimited service of any kind, it does not seem to me you have both feet in reality. I have read some of your other posts and I believe you to be reasonable well thought individual, but you are losing sight of reality on this one. What is the VoIP company to think if you use 89,280 hours in a month? Probably you are calling one party then using a conference feature (like 3-way calling) to connect another party and then leaving the connection live 24-7. This is akin to feeding non-paying guests in the buffet. Would this be unreasonable? and if so we have set limits on the unlimited service and must figure out exactly what unlimited is to mean to the industry. btw I have "unlimited" long distance via my long distance company, but they reserve the right to review the usage if I use over 5,000 minutes a month. If it appears my usage is not consitant with residential usage my plan can be terminated or assessed an additional $50 fee. I knew up front these terms and agreed to them. Like I said in my first post - I am not trying to defend the particular company in question, but I do believe it is naive nay it is unreasonable to expect true unlimited usage on a residential VoIP plan. A perfect example of the please bend me over crowd. Lets not look at real world examples of unlimited (1,300 minutes) let's talk about 89,000 minutes being a goood reason to cap unlimited at 1000 minutes.
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"Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."--FREDERIC BASTIAT-- | |
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| | | RadioDoc I agree and understand 100%.
RocketVoIP is off my list forever.
Josh is just shooting off his mouth trying to cause trouble.
Notice ol' Joshie doesn't even use VoIP.
Joshie supports the RIAA. 'Nuff said? | |
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| | I think that after 3k minutes a month a company might start looking at the calling patterns. Generally residential calls in my estimation would have a grouping of numbers called between 20-50 each month. And you could see a pattern where some of these calls were for 60+ minutes. Where a business especially someone doing sales would probably have a lot different numbers say 30 different numbers a day and spread across the country and the calls would generally be very short say under 5 minutes on average. So I think it is possible for a reasonable person or computer program to differentiate between business use and residential use. Then if the program picks up a pattern you could have an agent listen in on some calls to determine if it is for business purposes (is that in their TOS). I would then send them a warning letter and if the pattern continues have a supervisor level or higher staff member call them to see if they want to upgrade to a business package or have their service disconnected. | |
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2 edits | Re: Can Unlimited ever be true? thank you akristov this is the type of conversation that I was trying to evoke. I am NOT saying the 1,300 minutes per month is reasonable - I believe it falls woefully short. My point was simply that there must exist some acceptable threshold.
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If it is not recorded, it simply does not exist.
added key word I left out. | |
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