Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not rig in VOIP Tech Chat http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r13350848 en Sat, 05 Dec 2009 18:39:37 EDT Sat, 05 Dec 2009 18:39:37 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not rig http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13423496 NOCMan : Guess who and her lawyer were just on CNN.. you guess it!

Good luck to her trying to prove that vonage attempted to hide 911 disclaimers in the contract. It's the CONSUMERS responsibility to read the contract and nobody elses. I've read that contract and it's very clear what will and will not work when it comes to 911 services.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13423496 Mon, 16 May 2005 20:31:27 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not rig http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13411567 anon : It's pretty clear that telecom-savvy people appreciate the difference between POTS and off-POTS VoIP, and that people who don't should not be fooling around with off-POTS VoIP in its current form.

There are a couple of issues here that muddy the water though: a) there are providers like Dialpad that involve keeping your POTS service and bypassing it only for long distance calls, and b) unscrupulous VoIP resellers making fraudulent claims such as the one I see in my GoogleAds sidebar this morning:

VoIP -Beware of Providers
(Warning) We provide the Only VoIP
Service that supports 911 Calling!
orderVoIP.com

The link associated with this ad leads to a Packet8 reseller, and I'm pretty sure (as a Packet8 customer) that even they would freely admit they're not the "only VoIP service that supports 911".

So there are valid consumer protection issues here, although I agree that people who can't be bothered to understand the difference shouldn't be abandoning their POTS for VoIP.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13411567 Sun, 15 May 2005 09:35:31 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not rig http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13394910 MotoVT :
said by mwf See Profile:

As long as we are making 911 mandatory for VOIP, how about CPR courses for new parents?
I'll go you one better. Perhaps we should insist parents to be have more than sex skills and actually have to pass an intelligence test before joing chromosones. It won't reduce the number of stupid people now, but it sure as hell will help the future!
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Part time Vonage Phone Man. UNIDEN TRU8885 phone. Netgear RP614v2 router. Recruiting people to give of POTS and go with Voip. »www.voiptalk.us ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13394910 Thu, 12 May 2005 21:35:05 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not right? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13389896 voiplover : The caller could not get through to the dispatch center due to a problem with the 911 connection.
There are other dedicated #'s that will a connect right to the DC. How else would Companies like ADT be able to call in alarms to the DC's when the monitoring station may be thousands of miles away?
Somebody must have an up to date list of these #'s???]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13389896 Thu, 12 May 2005 10:13:42 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not rig http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13381715 ropeguru : The only problem here is that there are very few people left that are willing to accept responsibility for their own actions and screw ups..

It is always someone else's fault.
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FWD#: 223611]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13381715 Wed, 11 May 2005 10:10:37 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not rig http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13381580 jarruda : I fully agree.
The point is, expectation need to be properly set, as one example:
If your ISP is down, you still should be able to call 911 ?
If the VOIP provider SIP servers are down, you still should be able to call 911 ?
If your PC at home got infected with a virus, and is spewing traffic in the network, would you still be able to place the call to 911 ?
If the DSL router crashed, you still blabla...
I think my point is, 911 in POTS is clearly defined, there is a whole background of 'making it work' under several failure conditions. In VOIP, you are introducing quite few "single point of failures", that need to be taken in account.
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13381580 Wed, 11 May 2005 09:48:03 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not right? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13381451 anon : Should have used POTS line.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13381451 Wed, 11 May 2005 09:24:05 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not rig http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13381163 Loker : I currently live in an apartment but when I lived in a house around here we had phone service disconnected and we still had a dial tone and everyone else who cancel's still has a dial tone from my under standing it is a requirement everywhere for there to be a dial tone whether or not you have service then they have to give you an intercept message if you try and dial anything else saying if it is an emergency hang up and call 911 or if you would like to reconnect your service please call this number]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13381163 Wed, 11 May 2005 08:24:52 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not rig http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13380324 Simmer911 : This lady is just asking for a lawsuit from Vonage for libel. If I were her I would take the site down before it is too late. It is very unfortunate that this happened and I am sad. I think it is part Vonage's fault and the customer's fault. If this lady was getting a new 911 service she should have tested it and made sure it worked or research the services that Vonage offered. Also Vonage may need to be more clear in how thier 911 calls are routed and if they will even reach the right people when you call...or if the call will even be answered as they say "outside of normal business hours."
You should never use new technology if you do not know completely how to use it...especially if it could have something to do with a life or death scenario.
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TALKABOUTVOIP.COM VOIP Professional Help ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13380324 Wed, 11 May 2005 01:41:33 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not rig http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13377231 anon : I don't think I set my expectations too high. I think it was quite valid to be able to actually speak with a live person. If it was routed to a 7/11 it would have been more helpfull then what I got.

I also wanted to say that at least these lawsuits are getting the ball rolling on the matter, whether it is activation, which I understand and agree with as far as VOIP goes, or not, on getting a standard 911 service in place for all VOIP carriers. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13377231 Tue, 10 May 2005 18:47:56 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not rig http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13377019 jarruda : First of all, I hope is all right with your family.
On the 911/VOIP matter.
I think is just a matter expectations not properly set.
Coming from another country (Brazil), where the "911-like" is not even close to the US equivalent, I get myself seeing as natural the fact that VOIP doesn't offer proper 911.
And then, I start to see that in schools, tv.. everywhere, 911 is 'teached', or, is a kind of 'imprint' on the persons mind since early.
The VOIP providers need either, to make VERY VERY clear that these services are not '911-grade', or they need to make E911, w/ proper setup, a 'feature', even if they need to charge extra for it (P8 I think does that).
I've a sipura 3000 tied into an asterisk box, and in my dialplan on the s3k itself, it does offer 911 "from the local telco", BUT, still something I can see as a problem (one extra component to break, etc).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13377019 Tue, 10 May 2005 18:20:51 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not right? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13376408 anon : I just wanted to throw my 2 cents in. It was my family who contacted the AG in CT and probably he was just waiting for a reason to jump in with the lawsuits.

In my case my 9 month old son had a seizure, I dialed 911 and was routed to an automated number that said if this is an emergency hang up and dial 911. I went through all the proper steps initially and knew that what I was getting wasn't a true 911 service, however I did expect to be able to talk to a live person. I lay the blame totally on Vonage for this for not providing me with a correct number. I found on thier site that there was no need to test the service as long as you recieved an email stating it was activated. The only place I noticed that they mentioned it should be tested was for Michigan, but this was after the fact.

I respect most of your opinions and have read almost every post in here concerning this but it is real easy to put the blame on other people when you haven't experienced it. I would like to see your train of thought when you have your own infant son convulsing in your arms to run across the street or dig around for your cell phone. By the time I wasted precious minutes messing with thier "911" we just wanted to rush him to the ER. Thankfully he is ok for now although we haven't seen any results from tests.

Don't assume everyone is just a complete idiot in this matter, although I'm sure there are a couple. Think to yourself when was the last time you read a TOS word for word for every product or service you have looked into or purchased.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13376408 Tue, 10 May 2005 17:03:55 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not right? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13376222 jansm38 : The most likely reason for holding the story until now is May is "Sweeps Month" for Television. May is when all the news stations put out their "sensationalized" programming to try and out do each other.

quote:
1) We are told that the baby died on 3/24/2005. Today is May 7, a month and a half later. Why is this news just now breaking, on a Friday night no less (I am always suspicious when a story breaks late on a Friday afternoon or Friday night and that would not be the natural timing of the story - it makes me think someone doesn't want the story examined too critically)?
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13376222 Tue, 10 May 2005 16:42:38 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not right? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13374156 Fisamo : I didn't mean to imply that this was a setup or to diminish the mother's grief at all; I was simply responding to the comment about Vonage's deep pockets. I also think that in some ways, Vonage set themselves up for this exact scenario (based on their ad campaigns, etc), looking in hindsight. That being said, I also don't think they should be sued over 911 call completion, because they do make their service limitations crystal clear during the signup process, even if not in their advertising.

Here's one suggestion that Vonage (and any other 911-Lite service provider) COULD implement: They obviously map your 911 call to a 10-digit number. Why not tell the customer what that number is (at the top of the dashboard in a big, bold, red font)? They could also suggest that the customer verify that number (whether by calling their city/county services, checking websites, etc), program that number into memory dial locations in their phones, post that number by their phones, etc?

Your sticker idea is a good one--it certainly worked fine before 911 dialing was widespread.

As for Vonage's 'deep pockets' I don't dispute their size/value, but I also don't think that's the main or only reason they're the prime target of these lawsuits. Some of their competitors are backed by large corporations with deeper pockets, and they aren't getting sued. (And no, I'm not trying to encourage people to start suing ATT or other VoIP providers, either!)
--
{Earthlink 5M/384 cable (TWC) - Moto Surfboard 4220} - {Home network - WRT54G (HyperWRT 2.0b3 f/w)} - {ATTCV VoIP - Centillium MTA-1 (f/w 6.23L)}]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13374156 Tue, 10 May 2005 12:19:54 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not rig http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13373990 DrTCP :
said by alphapointe See Profile:

Why can't there be a firmware upgrade to our TA's (any VOIP provider) to route "911" to a local number if the provider doesn't provide E911?
I guess I keep repeating but 911 is not a shorthand for a local number. 911 network is an overlay network with dedicated trunks.

For this to work: There has to be a federal policy change for PSAPs to start publishing "official" local phone numbers (which is the system before 911 was established) for emergency access and having the equipment to accept and trace calls made to these numbers.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13373990 Tue, 10 May 2005 11:58:18 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not right? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13373955 DrTCP :
said by doncute18 See Profile:

The calls did reach the sheriff department. But once they reach the sheriffs office they say to please hang up and call 911 if this is a emergency or if you need a office please press one or if you know yours party extension number please enter it now. So its not Vonage fault, they routed the call to the correct place sheriff office.
No, they did not correctly route the call to a 911 (PSAP) as they are supposed to. Sheriff's Office is not a PSAP number, nor is equipped to trace the call origin to the person. Also, it may even lead to just a voice mail or recording. It is not the same thing.

In the end, the caller was delayed from getting help in emergency.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13373955 Tue, 10 May 2005 11:53:18 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not rig http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13373626 justin : vonage just collected a huge $200 million in venture capital money, valuing them at over $3b so they have deep pockets right now. Which may not be coincidental to this and future court cases. Suddenly, they are worth suing.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13373626 Tue, 10 May 2005 11:04:49 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not rig http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13373303 alphapointe : Why can't there be a firmware upgrade to our TA's (any VOIP provider) to route "911" to a local number if the provider doesn't provide E911? Packet8 doesn't provide 911 where I live, but I have my asterisk box set up to intercept "911" dialed from any extension and dial the local number instead. Granted, we all have cell phones in my house, but I did it (1) to see if I could, and (2) if we have company, etc. We have used this "feature" twice in the past year. While it's not E911, it works. I think it should be built in to the TA to be activated if it is needed. Just my two cents.
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root@paradise:/home/God #make install ..................................Big Bang ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13373303 Tue, 10 May 2005 10:15:22 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not right? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13372914 voiplover : Fisamo, you make a good point, but this wasn't a setup. When the emergency occurred, for what ever reasons calling 911 using Vonage did not work. The mother did not know that she should have prepared another # to call if 911 didn't work. This is a problem that is going to repeat it self. That is why I am pushing for stickers for voip phones.
We already know that 911 and voip will never be perfect and we need to have alternatives in place.
Any good suggestions please?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13372914 Tue, 10 May 2005 09:11:17 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not right? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13372827 doncute18 : The calls did reach the sheriff department. But once they reach the sheriffs office they say to please hang up and call 911 if this is a emergency or if you need a office please press one or if you know yours party extension number please enter it now. So its not Vonage fault, they routed the call to the correct place sheriff office.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13372827 Tue, 10 May 2005 08:52:18 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not right? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13372692 Fisamo :
said by voiplover See Profile:

Vonage probably has the deepest pockets.
I disagree with Vonage having the deepest pockets, because even though ATT CV doesn't have many subscribers relative to Vonage, they're a great lawsuit target, given company size. Their 911 dialing option works the same way that Vonage's does (or at least did back in Nov 2004, when I placed a test call). Also, I don't think their disclaimers are as prominent (certainly not MORE prominent, anyway) as Vonage's.

To me, Vonage is one of the first names that comes to mind when discussing consumer VoIP. VoIP is Vonage's only business, they have the largest number of active residential VoIP lines, they advertise heavily (switch to Vonage and save big $$) on TV and the internet.

It could be simply that Vonage is the biggest threat to the ILECs, because they're making the most noise regarding VoIP as a viable alternative to traditional voice PSTN service. Also, as a startup, maybe the assumption is that they'll settle rather than wage a series of long, protracted court battles. Maybe an AG wants to be able to say "We put this horrible company that wanted to take away your 911 access out of business." Or, because they have the largest subscriber base, the law of averages suggests that they'll have the largest number of 'complaints' (in the case of lawsuits filed by subscribers).
--
{Earthlink 5M/384 cable (TWC) - Moto Surfboard 4220} - {Home network - WRT54G (HyperWRT 2.0b3 f/w)} - {ATTCV VoIP - Centillium MTA-1 (f/w 6.23L)}]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13372692 Tue, 10 May 2005 08:20:45 EDT Re: newbie question: pixelation on some channels http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13371163 DrTCP :
said by voiplover See Profile:

How long and if they leave dial tone on the line is up to each states public utilities commission. The bell Co is reimbursed from the rate payers.
When someone suggested this a while ago, I've done some research on the Internet. Yes, some state PUC's require that a dial tone for 911 purpose is left on the line while the line is still connected to the switch but I've not found one that mandates that the line should be kept connected at a minimum of X days. However, I admit I've not done a comprehensive research. Can you provide a list of state that you know that mandate the line is kept connected?

Also, some states only mandate that they supply dialtone if no other dialtone exists at the building. You may want to check how long they will leave it operation before you have a problem.
As far as I know Texas does not have such a mandate but I can be wrong.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13371163 Mon, 09 May 2005 23:46:45 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not right? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13370656 voiplover : Vonage probably has the deepest pockets.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13370656 Mon, 09 May 2005 22:43:23 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not right? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13370486 electrode5 : Most of the other VOIP companies offer limited 911 (as opposed to 911) and none of them seem to have any better disclaimers than Vonage. In fact, Vonage's seems the clearest to me. I do not see how anyone with half a brain could not understand it.

Question- Why is Vonage the subject of all of this wrath and litigation (not just the baby's family, but the Texas and Michigan attorney generals) when the other VOIP companies are no different in how they tell the consumer?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13370486 Mon, 09 May 2005 22:23:24 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not rig http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13369681 Seaboogers :
said by joako See Profile:

said by blohner See Profile:

. I even happened to notice a warning label on the rear hatch of my car today:

"WARNING: Make sure that noone is in the vicinity of the power rear hatch while it is operated. Keep children away from the rear hatch control buttons"

Do they seriously need to tell us not to be in the path of a door while it is being operated?
Actually YES....because somewhere at some point...someone will either lose a finger or worse yet kill a child with the rear hatch/door and then SUE the car company and EVERYONE involved because that's what this country has come to....sue EVERYONE else but take NO responsibility for your own actions.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13369681 Mon, 09 May 2005 20:45:17 EDT Re: newbie question: pixelation on some channels http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13369360 voiplover :
said by DrTCP See Profile:

said by Loker See Profile:

I leave a phone connected to my old POTS hook up just in case for whatever reason I can not get a call out on Vonage to 911 services, so its not even a matter of saving a few bucks its just people not taking steps to protect themselves.
Are you in an apartment complex? Because phone companies are not required to leave dial-tone capability once the POTS is disconnected. They leave the dial tone in apartment complexes to allow ease of activation between tenant moves.
How long and if they leave dial tone on the line is up to each states public utilities commission. The bell Co is reimbursed from the rate payers.
Also, some states only mandate that they supply dialtone if no other dialtone exists at the building. You may want to check how long they will leave it operation before you have a problem.
Good luck.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13369360 Mon, 09 May 2005 20:00:28 EDT Re: newbie question: pixelation on some channels http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13368194 DrTCP :
said by Loker See Profile:

I leave a phone connected to my old POTS hook up just in case for whatever reason I can not get a call out on Vonage to 911 services, so its not even a matter of saving a few bucks its just people not taking steps to protect themselves.
Are you in an apartment complex? Because phone companies are not required to leave dial-tone capability once the POTS is disconnected. They leave the dial tone in apartment complexes to allow ease of activation between tenant moves.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13368194 Mon, 09 May 2005 17:28:42 EDT Re: newbie question: pixelation on some channels http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13366861 Loker : I wanted to get a couple of comments in I do feel for these people it is terrible to lose a child....but 1. I can instantly get a hold of emergency services on my Vonage line, they said they were not the emergency number but they could get ambulances there just as fast if needed. 2.people keep saying they do it just to save a few bucks and they should keep POTS service as a back up...They do not have to pay for POTS to be able to dial 911 from it. I leave a phone connected to my old POTS hook up just in case for whatever reason I can not get a call out on Vonage to 911 services, so its not even a matter of saving a few bucks its just people not taking steps to protect themselves.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13366861 Mon, 09 May 2005 14:24:44 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not right? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13366231 Anonuser : Not that it matters much, but baby on the left has a mole above the right eye. baby on the right does not. Moles normally show up more when their is bright flash.... Doesnt look like same baby...
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Do the Dew!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13366231 Mon, 09 May 2005 12:51:56 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not right? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13366230 KevNYC :
said by owenhome See Profile:

Also, my cell-phone has this thing called E911. It has a GPS receiver that sends satellite information to the network and it can locate you with it in an emergency. It's not GPS navigation or anything, it doesn't have that capacity. It only takes the times from the sat's and sends them on, a computer on the other end figures the location. That even came with a refurb'ed $9 phone I bought my wife. It looks like a scope, or cross-hairs next to the battery indicator. It works out doors, in doors, in elevators, pretty much everywhere. I was amazed.

What would it cost to build that into every hand set in the US? $1? 2, 3, $10? Would it matter?

If I call 911 from my cell phone, they KNOW where I am. I called to report an accident (no not mine) and I was in the mall parking lot. They asked me if it was in the mall parking lot or on a side street before I told them my location.

That technology, with a national 911 system, would solve all this crap instantly.
The call centers have to have the proper equipment to determine your location, and the fact is most of them don't. The FCC deadline for call centers to be properly equiped is November of this year and last I heard they weren't even up to 50% yet.
--
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity! l Check out Football Freaks ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13366230 Mon, 09 May 2005 12:51:28 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not rig http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13365826 ke4pym : Pffbt, and just because you can reach 911 it doesn't mean help will come.

I've had 2 instances in the past year and a half in which emergency services did not respond even though 911 had been called (via POTS).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13365826 Mon, 09 May 2005 11:53:59 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not right? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13365758 voiplover : As I read further though these articles, I can't help but to feel for their plight...
This is a case of; when enough mistakes occur, accidents happen and people get hurt!

As taken from their web site:
----------------------------------
"...carriers must provide an intercept message when a call is made using the discontinued seven- or ten-digit emergency telephone number..."

Intercept Message: "Hang up and Dial 911"
----------------------------------

This makes me sick. The message could have very easily had a non 911 number added into the message. Even if it had to be the dispatch center for the regional area.

I carry a list of phone #'s for dispatch centers in my region in my wallet. Some of the #'s are over ~ten years old +. I can't even imagine how many times I have used that list to call in emergencies using my cell phone and have never received a message like that.

I am a big advocate for 911 and ON STAR. It can and does save lives! However, I don't believe 911 is viable or going to be reliable for all forms of voip. The best that I can offer for this problem is the phone sticker idea.
-------------------------
How hard could it be for voip providers to supply their subscribers with stickers saying "NOT FOR 911 CALLS"?

A simple red phone sticker that boldly states; "911 may not work with this phone. To call local emergency services dial (to be added by subscriber) 1-XXX-XXX-XXXX. The address at this location is __________________________"
------------------------

»VOIP and 911 solutions. Looking for suggestions?
This is from a thread that I started after reading this (WhyADucks') thread.
My intent was not to take away from this thread and my suggestion is not FOOL proof, but I believe when it comes to Life Safety issues, 'Something is better than Nothing.'

Again, just my 2c!



]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13365758 Mon, 09 May 2005 11:42:53 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not right? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13365566 Chosen1 : 1-800-911-4-911

-Chosen1]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13365566 Mon, 09 May 2005 11:18:36 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not rig http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13365521 Anonymous : Well it's not about people being stupid it is more about protecting your corporate ass. We need to exterminate lawyers in USA. That will solve a lot of problems. I see a LOT of lawyer commercials on TV. It's just unbelievable :(

They make loads of money and it's a big business.

Unfortunately this monster capitalist system isn't helping much. There are virtually no limits to human greed. In fact it is encouraged. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13365521 Mon, 09 May 2005 11:13:28 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not rig http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13365509 muttdog : "It's you Americans... you can sue for ANYTHING."

I dont like your attitude. You didn't warn me that you would be ranting against the america in this manner.

I am now suffering from phobia of canadians. Be prepare to be sued.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13365509 Mon, 09 May 2005 11:10:08 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not right? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13365322 Ikarasu : It's you Americans... you can sue for ANYTHING.

I'm from Canada... been in America about 6 months on vacation right now. EVERYTHING has a warning label here. It's such a big change in Canada... I guess because the government/law recognizes peoples stupidity over companies.

Bought a soda... whats it say? "WARNING: Contents under presure. Do not open near eye"

Anyone... who needs a warning label on a soda.... obviously is too stupid and shouldn't be drinking it anyways.

Whats next? Built in generators so when you have a power outage, your phone never dies? Manditory built in modems? offering free secondary ISPS? 0% Downtime? If they get the ruling to have manditory 911 over something like this.... next power outage, everyone who gets hurt/injured.... guess who will be sued?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13365322 Mon, 09 May 2005 10:41:24 EDT Vonage 911 DOES work... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13365067 Boomerang86 : When you read the fine print and understand its limitations, naturally you should have a backup plan in case your ISP connection tanks. I have two wireless phones that I keep for emergencies.

We used Vonage to call 911 last January for a CO condition in our home. It was set up correctly when I first signed up, the call went through ON THE FIRST ATTEMPT and the fire department came just as quick as if I had called them on a POTS line (which I have not had in over a year).

A tragedy yes... the fault of Vonage? I don't think so. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13365067 Mon, 09 May 2005 10:04:02 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not rig http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13365023 B :
said by WhyADuck See Profile:

This is the nation where if you buy a cup of hot coffee, set it in your lap, spill it and burn yourself, instead of accepting personal responsibility for being an idiot you sue the fast food joint you got the coffee from. This forces them to stop serving really hot coffee. Too bad if anyone else wanted their coffee really hot, we have to protect all the idiots in this country from themselves even if it inconveniences everyone else.
Obligatory clarification -- that's a perennial bad example -- the McDonald's case was notable for just how undrinkably hot the coffee was, how severely the customer was burned, and just how cavalier (and culpable) McDonald's was. (They'd had 700 claims over 10 years.)

»www.snopes.com/legal/lawsuits.asp

»www.atlanet.org/pressroom/FACTS/···ase.aspx

McDonald's itself admitted they were serving coffee so incredibly hot it was not fit for human consumption.

McDonald's own quality assurance manager testified that a burn hazard exists with any food substance served at 140 degrees or above and that McDonald's coffee was not fit for consumption because it would burn the mouth and throat.

The quality assurance manager further testified that the company actively enforces a requirement that coffee be held in the pot at 185 degrees, plus or minus five degrees. He also testified that while burns would occur, McDonald's had no intention of reducing the "holding temperature" of its coffee.

...

A vascular surgeon determined that Liebeck suffered full thickness burns (or third-degree burns) over 6 percent of her body.
/ End of Clarification
-- B
--
In a realm outside causality and function]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13365023 Mon, 09 May 2005 09:54:47 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not right? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13364956 JSRoman : deleted]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13364956 Mon, 09 May 2005 09:42:48 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not rig http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13362024 clecrupt9 : I had initially though about translating 911 into whatever number based on criteria defined by PSAP routers or routing software. What that would mean is end users dial 911 like always and behind the scens the call completes in the geographic area. With 800 numbers I guess AIN could handle DNIS and forward calls onto the correct party.

A good feature of this type system would be the ability to have medical records, or important medical info, available real time to EMS and 911 centers as they handle calls and treat victims.

Another feature would be for alarm and phone companies to test 911 trunks as often as they like without utilizing a 911 resource. The local police could also link departments like robbery and homicide straight into 911. And Government entities like Homeland security could asses massive catastrophes much much better with more quantified versions of emergency data.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13362024 Sun, 08 May 2005 20:32:11 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not rig http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13360879 Skywise : A short note on the cellphone GPS. If I remember correctly, every new phone sold after 2005 will have to have GPS build in - around 95% of handsets sold today already have it. However, unfortunately the majority of PSAPs are NOT equipped to actually use those systems, so unless you live in a few select communities, dialing 911 on your cell and leaving it in the car (as seen on CSI last week) will NOT work.

-Sky]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13360879 Sun, 08 May 2005 17:31:03 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not right? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13359487 ebruce :
said by lmjh7065 See Profile:

While I like the 800 number proposal, (800-CALL-911 / 800-225-5911) it looks like that number is already taken.

EDIT: I believe Costa Rica already uses it for an emergency number, but in the US 48 is appears to be a travel health insurance number.

Maybe (800-911-CALL / 800-911-2255) could be used?
People would probably get confused and dial the wrong number (CALL-911 vs. 911-CALL) and end up suing somebody over it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13359487 Sun, 08 May 2005 13:42:22 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not right? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13359423 lmjh7065 : While I like the 800 number proposal, (800-CALL-911 / 800-225-5911) it looks like that number is already taken.

EDIT: I believe Costa Rica already uses it for an emergency number, but in the US 48 is appears to be a travel health insurance number.

Maybe (800-911-CALL / 800-911-2255) could be used?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13359423 Sun, 08 May 2005 13:31:04 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not rig http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13359173 Cybertoy_ch :
said by justin See Profile:

dumb question, why doesn't the government offer a "1-800-call 911" number as an alternative? if that means they can't figure location of caller, how about the first prompt is "enter your 5 digit zip code", and then the call is auto-routed to the correct 911 call center, or, they simply have a "generic" 911 desk staffed, that asks for city and state, and then patches the call through. It would only take a few extra seconds..
probably 'cause people that are stupid and don't read the disclaimer that 911 won't work with their VoIP line are most likely equally stupid to not know the zip code they're in...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13359173 Sun, 08 May 2005 12:47:37 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not rig http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13358840 WhyADuck :
said by owenhome See Profile:

Also, my cell-phone has this thing called E911. It has a GPS receiver that sends satellite information to the network and it can locate you with it in an emergency. It's not GPS navigation or anything, it doesn't have that capacity. It only takes the times from the sat's and sends them on, a computer on the other end figures the location. That even came with a refurb'ed $9 phone I bought my wife. It looks like a scope, or cross-hairs next to the battery indicator. It works out doors, in doors, in elevators, pretty much everywhere. I was amazed.
I would be amazed if it works inside an elevator, or any other totally enclosed space. What I suspect they are doing in your case is using triangulation off their cell towers when they can't get a "real" GPS signal from the satellites, but not giving you any indication of the difference. Satellite signals are strictly line-of-sight (ask anyone who's ever had a tree branch grow out in front of the signal path to their Dish Network/DirectTV or similar dish) so unless it's one of those glass-enclosed elevators that go up the outside of a building, I don't see how it could work.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13358840 Sun, 08 May 2005 11:48:28 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not rig http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13358280 clecrupt9 : Justin what you've proposed is very similar to an IVR solution I kicked around a while back. People seem scared to make any fundamental changes to 911 though. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13358280 Sun, 08 May 2005 10:01:23 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not right? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13358113 Cam : When I signed up for Vonage they had no "911" system at all. I knew that and signed up anyway.

I have children and I keep a prepaid Virgin Wireless cell phone right next to the Vonage phone. If there is an emergency call that needs to be made the wireless phone is used.

Between my Vonage bill and my Virgin Wireless payments I am still saving a bundle with Vonage and have been very pleased with the service the provide.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13358113 Sun, 08 May 2005 09:25:25 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not right? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13357237 owenhome : It's a blame game folks.

They lost a child. It stopped breathing. Who's at fault? Anybody? Probably not. Even if the call had gone through, what good could it have done? Did the mother attempt CPR? Did they do anything beyond call 911? Having a child and not knowing CPR is simply asking for trouble. Without it, that baby would have what, maybe 4 minutes before going brain dead? When was the last time an ambulance made it on-scene in 4 minutes? If it took 10,15, or even 30 minutes for the ambulance to get there, what then? The baby wouldn't survive that long anyway.

They are just looking for someone to hang the blame on. They're not at fault in their minds. To them, they were depending on 911 to save the life of their child. You can't do that. You have to depend on yourself first(CPR!).

I really like Justin's "1-800-call 911".

Also, my cell-phone has this thing called E911. It has a GPS receiver that sends satellite information to the network and it can locate you with it in an emergency. It's not GPS navigation or anything, it doesn't have that capacity. It only takes the times from the sat's and sends them on, a computer on the other end figures the location. That even came with a refurb'ed $9 phone I bought my wife. It looks like a scope, or cross-hairs next to the battery indicator. It works out doors, in doors, in elevators, pretty much everywhere. I was amazed.

What would it cost to build that into every hand set in the US? $1? 2, 3, $10? Would it matter?

If I call 911 from my cell phone, they KNOW where I am. I called to report an accident (no not mine) and I was in the mall parking lot. They asked me if it was in the mall parking lot or on a side street before I told them my location.

That technology, with a national 911 system, would solve all this crap instantly.
--
Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13357237 Sun, 08 May 2005 01:55:42 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not rig http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13356914 joako :
said by blohner See Profile:

Everytime I read a story like this my blood pressure goes up. Why do people in this country always cry for the government to protect them from themselves?
My BBQ has a whole warning story printed on it - even cigarette lighters have a warning label... I could go on and on... I signed up with Vonage knowing what I get into. I could go on and on - but I'll just leave it at that...
I don't want VoIP to be regulated, I want VoIP to be cheap and semy reliable - I am very happy with Vonage... It's sad to see the baby die but it's not Vonage's fault.
You are so correct -- look at the automobile industry. Read your car manual, and then go to Europe and read the same manual -- you'll find the European manual tells you how to use the car, the American manual tells you what not to do with the car. I even happened to notice a warning label on the rear hatch of my car today:

"WARNING: Make sure that noone is in the vicinity of the power rear hatch while it is operated. Keep children away from the rear hatch control buttons"

Do they seriously need to tell us not to be in the path of a door while it is being operated?
--
»www.joako.com]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13356914 Sun, 08 May 2005 00:44:37 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not rig http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13356594 La Luna :
said by justin See Profile:

dumb question, why doesn't the government offer a "1-800-call 911" number as an alternative? if that means they can't figure location of caller, how about the first prompt is "enter your 5 digit zip code", and then the call is auto-routed to the correct 911 call center, or, they simply have a "generic" 911 desk staffed, that asks for city and state, and then patches the call through. It would only take a few extra seconds..
Because the major phone companies would then have to find another way to try and get rid of VoIP?

Call me cynical, but such a simple solution ignored says volumes about the real agenda here.....
--
~~I'll make a wish, take a chance, make a change, and breakaway... Out of the darkness and into the sun...~~ ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13356594 Sat, 07 May 2005 23:45:25 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not rig http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13356457 CapinPete : These people are idiots. Further, I might just use their stupid links on their stupid web page and send my congressman a letter letting them know that I like my VOIP the way it is now.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13356457 Sat, 07 May 2005 23:24:43 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not rig http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13356002 Anonymous : We have a choice (well most of the time). People want to save few $ and they get VOIP. And after something like this they bitch.

RTFM or in this case EULA or whatever...but first STFU]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13356002 Sat, 07 May 2005 22:17:40 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not rig http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13355539 HD_Ride :
said by montee4 See Profile:

Having an emergency plan in place before something happens is always a good idea.
Well said!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13355539 Sat, 07 May 2005 21:02:28 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not rig http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13355311 justin : dumb question, why doesn't the government offer a "1-800-call 911" number as an alternative? if that means they can't figure location of caller, how about the first prompt is "enter your 5 digit zip code", and then the call is auto-routed to the correct 911 call center, or, they simply have a "generic" 911 desk staffed, that asks for city and state, and then patches the call through. It would only take a few extra seconds..]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13355311 Sat, 07 May 2005 20:28:09 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not rig http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13354859 mwf : As long as we are making 911 mandatory for VOIP, how about CPR courses for new parents?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13354859 Sat, 07 May 2005 19:14:40 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not right? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13353730 La Luna : While I feel sorry that this couple lost their daughter, I will say one more time....Vonage makes it ABSOLUTELY clear when you sign up that you MUST activate 911 service....AND that it MAY NOT work in the same traditional manner as a POTS line. I had no experience with VoIP before signing up last May, and I KNEW and UNDERSTOOD the ramifications of a less than perfect 911 system....and dealt with it in other ways.

WHAT is so hard about this for people to understand? The fact is that they just don't BOTHER to read about what they are signing up for....they claim that VoIP companies have plenty of money to fix this....but yet, they signed up because THEY wanted to SAVE money. So they either knew 911 was a crap shoot and didn't care (the "it could never happen to us" syndrome), or the thought of saving money was more important to them than even reading the instructions about 911 at all.

No, I'm sorry, but just because these people did NOT do as they were supposed to (read) and take the necessary steps to protect themselves, that does not make Vonage responsible for their daughters death.

Too bad there isn't some kind of feedback link on that website...I guess you can only comment if you support them.

EDIT: And as far as "stickers" go, I doubt anyone who didn't bother to pay attention to the 911 instructions and the EMAIL from Vonage regarding 911 would bother to use or even notice stickers. I'm sure they'd end up in the garbage with all the other unread instructions.

--
~~I'll make a wish,
take a chance,
make a change,
and breakaway...
Out of the darkness and into the sun...~~
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13353730 Sat, 07 May 2005 16:19:11 EDT The most simple solution to VOIP's 911 problems! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13353204 voiplover : How hard could it be for voip providers to supply their subscribers with "NOT FOR 911 CALLS"?
I've posted it before and I'll post it again;

A simple sticker that boldly states; "911 may not work with this phone. To call local emergency services dial (to be added by subscriber) 1-XXX-XXX-XXXX"

Our local Chamber of Commerce gave out thousands of red '911 activated' stickers when 911 first hit our area and they were a big hit.

Just my 2c!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13353204 Sat, 07 May 2005 14:47:52 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not rig http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13353175 vonsen : This has all of the hallmarks of being pushed to prominence to further the agendas of certain corporate entities that are in competition with voip. Witness the recent lobbyist efforts on this front and the subsequent & I'm certain, coincidental lawsuits by several AG's.

911 has not been around forever. Somehow we survived that dark, pre-911 era without rampant diaster befalling us. People know or should have known i.e. would have known if they bothered to do any reading or research that there are definite limitations to any 911 system and particularly to voip, as it is a new and immature technology. If they recklessly barrelled ahead and put their families at risk without thinking things through and making contingency plans, they are idiots that have foisted their own problems upon themselves. Why can't people take personal responsibility for a change instead of crying that it is someone else's fault for not restraining them from their own bad judgement and making the entire world idiot-proof? It is tragic that a death may have occurred because they were too stupid to heed the limitations of voip. And a travesty that a lot of people feel that suing everything that moves is a reasonable 'solution'.

--
                                                                                                               five stars shy]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13353175 Sat, 07 May 2005 14:41:56 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not right? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13352832 BillRoland : I just sent an e-mail to WESH where I copied the Vonage Terms of Service and asked them how was this supposed to be Vonage's fault, and suggested they run a story about how ILEC E911 has had plenty of failures itself. Fat chance of that happening. This woman needs to accept responsibility that she signed this agreement, that Vonage makes it clear that its not E911, and that this isn't Vonage's fault. I don't understand how we survived all this time without 911...
--
"Don't steal. The government hates competition."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13352832 Sat, 07 May 2005 13:32:34 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not right? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13352611 lmjh7065 : This is indeed a sad story about loosing your child and I feel for the parents, but people continue to not want to accept responsibility for their own actions. Someone went to a lot of work with this web site trying to shift the blame to someone else.

First of all Vonage or any VoIP provider that I have ever read about never claims to be a replacement for POTS or POTS 911.

No one forced the parents of this child to change their phone service to VoIP, as far as I can tell.

POTS 911 does not always answer on the first ring. People think there is an unlimited amount of not only phone circuits but emergency operators. Even here in town POTS 911 can and has been out of service for various reasons for an extended period of time in some areas.

This all seems to me to be "locking the barn door after the horse is stolen".

Being prepared helps, but even that can't eliminate all possible disasters.

I'm sure that our government will do as good a job with VoIP regulation as they have done with crime, gun control, drugs, liquor, etc., etc., etc. Just my opinion.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13352611 Sat, 07 May 2005 12:52:02 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not rig http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13352414 WhyADuck :
said by Trimline See Profile:

I saw the news story run on local TV. What they didn't tell you in the article was:

1. Vonage proved that the 911 calls did complete (actually twice).
2. The husband ran next door and also called 911 via POTS.
Those are VERY significant omissions in the story, obviously. That just further goes to support my theory that this story did not just happen to appear on the radar at this point in time, just by sheer coincidence.

said by Trimline See Profile:

The couple's main complaint was to "ban" VoIP completely. I was shocked when the Mr. Waller says Vonage and all other VoIP providers "were trying to save a few bucks" by not providing true 911. Huh? Who was trying to save money here?
This is the nation where if you buy a cup of hot coffee, set it in your lap, spill it and burn yourself, instead of accepting personal responsibility for being an idiot you sue the fast food joint you got the coffee from. This forces them to stop serving really hot coffee. Too bad if anyone else wanted their coffee really hot, we have to protect all the idiots in this country from themselves even if it inconveniences everyone else.

said by Trimline See Profile:

WESH channel 2 was the only news station out of five in the Orlando metro area to carry this story. I do sympathise with the couple for losing their baby, but in this case the evidence on the reel suggested otherwise.
Do me a favor, make a note of whether you see a higher percentage of advertising on that station than on the stations that didn't run the story, from the local incumbent telephone companies or anyone else who might have an axe to grind in this situation. If nothing else, you can fault the station for going for the sensational angle rather than reporting the complete and accurate story (of course, I have never yet seen any TV station report any story completely accurately, in any situation where I've had personal knowledge of what really happened). But at worst, this might be one of those stations where the sales department actually influences which news is covered and which is buried (on such stations you'll never see a negative story about one of their big advertisers unless the other stations break it first, and conversely, a big advertiser can request that a certain story be carried).

This story was "news" a month and a half ago. Now it is propaganda, coming out a day or two after FCC Commissioner Martin makes it known that he wants VoIP companies to be forced to offer 911. I don't believe in coincidence, not when events move like this. This sort of "management" of public opinion is exactly what public relations firms do, and some of them are very good at it. If I were a gambler, I'd bet that there is a public relations firm mixed up in this somewhere, and that they are being funded by a telephone company (or, far less likely, a cable company).

Some questions I wish we had the answers to: Who actually designed that web site? Where is it being hosted? Who actually paid for the domain registration and the web hosting? Who or what inspired the TV station to run this story late on a Friday afternoon, well after the event occurred? Was the mother contacted by ANYONE who offered their assistance in getting her story out, and if so, who pays that person's wages or salary? We will probably never know the answers to such questions, unless there is some kind of official investigation somewhere down the road.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13352414 Sat, 07 May 2005 12:15:08 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not right? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13352342 clecrupt9 : This can go back all the way to people who suggested offering 911 was a real risk to these providers.

Vonage wanted to compete with local line telco's at first as second line replacements. But with the 911 offering it became clear they wanted to compete completely with ILEC/CLEC dialtone. In hindsight it might have been smarter to wait until 911 agreements were in place with the ILEC's to offer the same "expectation" of what 911 is to most people. Of course the ILEC's might not have ever let them in without all the 911 buzz floating around.

I think forcing the voip residential line companies into 911/e911 will be the first step towards regulation. Let's hope USF and access fees stay away for a while.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13352342 Sat, 07 May 2005 11:59:48 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not right? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13351899 montee4 : I don't think I would pt my babies life at risk by trying to save a few $$ on VoIP. These people need to wake up and asses their current situation instead of being blinded by the fact that they can spend $20 more a month.

Unfortunetly we have become all too reliant on the government to make decisions for us. People need to start being more responsible to prevent problems like this. Having an emergency plan in place before something happens is alyas a good idea.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13351899 Sat, 07 May 2005 10:24:33 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not right? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13351396 doncute18 : Its in the terms of service. People just gotta learn how to read. Also if u read the website the baby was already not breathing ? was a autopsy done. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13351396 Sat, 07 May 2005 08:01:22 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not right? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13351358 blohner : Everytime I read a story like this my blood pressure goes up. Why do people in this country always cry for the government to protect them from themselves?
My BBQ has a whole warning story printed on it - even cigarette lighters have a warning label... I could go on and on... I signed up with Vonage knowing what I get into. I could go on and on - but I'll just leave it at that...
I don't want VoIP to be regulated, I want VoIP to be cheap and semy reliable - I am very happy with Vonage... It's sad to see the baby die but it's not Vonage's fault.
--
I am addicted to speed --- OOL speed that is ---
~Help find a cure for cancer~Proud Member Team Discovery]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13351358 Sat, 07 May 2005 07:44:13 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not right? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13351324 burgerwars : If they were intelligent enough to make a website, I wonder why they weren't intelligent enough to figure out the limitations of VOIP 911. It's not rocket science. There has been the argument that many VOIP users just expected their service to be the same as a regular phone, since many just don't know much about technology, where using a toaster may be a challenge. But that's not the case here.

It isn't going to end with just 911. Your internet connection must be up with no glitches along the way (see what happened to Broadvoice this week), plus the electricity must be on in your house for your router and adapter to work. VOIP just isn't as reliable as POTS, so one may still not get 911 even if 911 is there. These people should have kept stripped-down POTS service too, instead of being so cheap and just rely totally on Vonage.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13351324 Sat, 07 May 2005 07:25:54 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not rig http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13351289 Trimline : I saw the news story run on local TV. What they didn't tell you in the article was:

1. Vonage proved that the 911 calls did complete (actually twice).
2. The husband ran next door and also called 911 via POTS.

The couple's main complaint was to "ban" VoIP completely. I was shocked when the Mr. Waller says Vonage and all other VoIP providers "were trying to save a few bucks" by not providing true 911. Huh? Who was trying to save money here?

WESH channel 2 was the only news station out of five major news stations in the Orlando metro area to carry this story. I do sympathise with the couple for losing their baby, but in this case the evidence on the reel suggested otherwise.
--
FWD#537129]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13351289 Sat, 07 May 2005 07:01:17 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not rig http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13350932 rjackson : Ok...for as little as $3.95/mo anyone can host a site at GoDaddy.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13350932 Sat, 07 May 2005 03:03:12 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not rig http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13350896 WhyADuck : It might possibly be relevant if the location were suspicious - for example, at the same location as a bunch of other sites created by a particular PR firm.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13350896 Sat, 07 May 2005 02:53:56 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not rig http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13350869 rjackson :
said by WhyADuck See Profile:

Is there no way to tell where the server that hosts this site is located?
The IP range in which the site's domain resolves to is registered to GoDaddy, so it's reasonable to believe that's who's hosting the site. Where it's physically located though, is largely irrelevant and probably won't get you any closer to who's behind it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13350869 Sat, 07 May 2005 02:48:02 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not rig http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13350848 WhyADuck :
said by rjackson See Profile:

The picture on the right looks brigher because a flash was used at close range. The picture on the left is a picture from a monitor or TV, doesn't look like any artificial light was used at all.
Perhaps. When I first saw the picture in the article (on the TV station site) I initially thought the baby was black, which is why it shocked me to see what appears to be a very caucasian baby on the other site.

said by rjackson See Profile:

Honestly the site does not appear all that professional to me. There's no evidence she did the site herself, perhaps a friend or family member did it as a favor.
I don't know - I grant you it isn't flashy but when I look at the content of the site, it just doesn't look amateurish at all to me. I'm sure that if a PR firm were behind it, they would not be so obvious as to use a lot of graphics and such. Rather, they'd make a carefully crafted but somewhat plain, deliberately non-flashy site, so as not to overplay their hand, so to speak.

said by rjackson See Profile:

I'm not backing up or refuting your claims, just saying based on this evidence alone it doesn't look like she's frauding anyone based on this.
I'm NOT making any claims, just asking some hard questions and airing my suspicions. I may be totally wrong, it wouldn't be the first time. But I sure wish there was some way to track this down a bit better, to confirm or refute my thoughts. Is there no way to tell where the server that hosts this site is located?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13350848 Sat, 07 May 2005 02:43:17 EDT Re: Crap just hit the fan, but something's not right? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13350773 rjackson :
said by WhyADuck See Profile:

2) Why does the WESH-TV story shows a photo of a baby that seems to have a much darker complexion than the baby shown on the web site (see attached comparison - note the photos are under copyright by WESH.COM and Joseph & Cheryl Waller, I am posting them here under the doctrine of fair use, which I believe allows such use for the purpose of critical analysis. If the mods feel I am wrong about this they may feel free to remove the attachment).
The picture on the right looks brigher because a flash was used at close range. The picture on the left is a picture from a monitor or TV, doesn't look like any artificial light was used at all.

said by WhyADuck See Profile:

3) Perhaps the thing that strikes me as the oddest thing is that the »www.911petition.com web site seems very professionally done. Reading the article, we are led to believe that this distraught mother, in the short time after her baby's death (and, just by coincidence, just prior to possible upcoming FCC action on the matter) was able to come up with this web site.
Honestly the site does not appear all that professional to me. There's no evidence she did the site herself, perhaps a friend or family member did it as a favor.

said by WhyADuck See Profile:

I know we have some network gurus on this forum so here is my question to you: Can you track down ownership of the 911petition.com domain? What I am wanting to know is whether there are any known public relations firms or "astroturf" groups that are using this tragedy for commercial purposes, to promote the agenda of one or more incumbent telephone companies.
Domain name records are public, and made available by the domain registrars. Unfortunately in this case the registrant has opted for a private registration, so you don't get any real info:
Registrant:
   Domains by Proxy, Inc.
   DomainsByProxy.com
   15511 N. Hayden Rd., Ste 160, PMB 353
   Scottsdale, Arizona 85260
   United States
 
   Registered through: GoDaddy.com
   Domain Name: 911PETITION.COM
      Created on: 21-Apr-05
      Expires on: 21-Apr-06
      Last Updated on: 27-Apr-05                                                          
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(*) WARNING 1 long line(s) split

I'm not backing up or refuting your claims, just saying based on this evidence alone it doesn't look like she's frauding anyone based on this.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13350773 Sat, 07 May 2005 02:25:04 EDT Crap just hit the fan, but something's not right? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13350685 WhyADuck : Well, some of you have been saying that it was only a matter of time before someone died because of lack of 911 service on VoIP. If this story is to be believed, it finally happened.

Now, I don't mean to sound heartless here, if a mother truly lost her baby my heart goes out to her, but there is just something about this whole thing that just doesn't quite "smell right" to me. I'm not saying the whole story was made up, but nevertheless there are a few things that seem strange about this:

MOD NOTE: Photos referenced here were removed at the request of the mother of the infant (photo is also copyrighted) -- Discussion is welcome to continue -- just without the photo. Thanks.

1) We are told that the baby died on 3/24/2005. Today is May 7, a month and a half later. Why is this news just now breaking, on a Friday night no less (I am always suspicious when a story breaks late on a Friday afternoon or Friday night and that would not be the natural timing of the story - it makes me think someone doesn't want the story examined too critically)?

2) Why does the WESH-TV story shows a photo of a baby that seems to have a much darker complexion than the baby shown on the web site (see attached comparison - note the photos are under copyright by WESH.COM and Joseph & Cheryl Waller, I am posting them here under the doctrine of fair use, which I believe allows such use for the purpose of critical analysis. If the mods feel I am wrong about this they may feel free to remove the attachment).

3) Perhaps the thing that strikes me as the oddest thing is that the »www.911petition.com web site seems very professionally done. Reading the article, we are led to believe that this distraught mother, in the short time after her baby's death (and, just by coincidence, just prior to possible upcoming FCC action on the matter) was able to come up with this web site.

I know we have some network gurus on this forum so here is my question to you: Can you track down ownership of the 911petition.com domain? What I am wanting to know is whether there are any known public relations firms or "astroturf" groups that are using this tragedy for commercial purposes, to promote the agenda of one or more incumbent telephone companies.

And the BIG question...

4) Why didn't this mother "read and heed" the warnings about the 911 service on the Vonage web site BEFORE this tragedy happened? If she can put together this kind of web site, one has to believe that she's not an unintelligent person. Yet she apparently didn't have a working cell phone, or a landline backup handy.

I hate to be so cynical but there is just something about the timing of this story, plus all the things listed above, that make me suspicious. I certainly don't mean to be heartless; it's always a tragedy when a child is lost, no matter how it happens. But I wouldn't put anything, not even "using" a mother and her deceased child, beyond the bounds of corporate decency (now there's an oxymoron, especially when we are talking about an incumbent telephone company). Large corporations have no soul, and their only standard of morality sometimes seems to be whatever will make them the most money.

I hesitated about posting this story because of my reservations about it, but I figure it's going to come out anyway - whoever's behind it will make sure it does - and I really would like those of you who know their way around the 'net to see if there is anything that hints that the origins of this web page might be something other than what we are being told. And that is all I will say for now.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13350685 Sat, 07 May 2005 01:57:57 EDT