Re: Symantec taking cowards way out in http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r13606797 en Fri, 04 Dec 2009 09:10:57 EDT Fri, 04 Dec 2009 09:10:57 EDT Re: Symantec taking cowards way out http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13613183 mers2 : Thus far all legal maneuvers have been made by malware companies against anti-spyware companies. The little guys don't have enough money to do anything definitive about it aside from having attorneys write responses and refuse to immediately back down. Symantec is basically taking it right back to them in an aggresive manner that has been sorely needed.
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said by Damon85 See Profile:

"Spyware" as a label could be considered defamatory in regards to the spyware makers. I think we should just call all of it "I-don't-want-it-ware" (not "you-don't-want-it-ware") because that's definitely a personal opinion and can't be construed as defamatory.
I don't think so. The term "spyware" is just a label which is applied to software once the anti-spyware vendor thinks that the application has met certain criteria. For example, phoning home with potentially sensitive data without asking for the user's permission first.

The vendor is free to call any application whatever it wants. If they wanted, they could call Microsoft Office spyware. However, anti-spyware vendors rely on their reputation. List too many false positives (or don't list enough real positives) and their reputation is damaged. This keeps anti-spyware companies from either 1) threatening to list an application unless the developer does something for the anti-spyware company or 2) taking compensation from the spyware company to remove a listing.

When either #1 or #2 happens, pressure from users/the security community forces the vendor to either recant or lose market share. (See »Lavasoft Responds ).

If you call "spyware" defamatory, then could the term "spam" be considered defamatory? Could spammers sue anti-spam companies for daring to label their messages as spam? (I know some have, but could they sue and actually have a leg to stand on?) Should anti-spam companies tag the unwanted e-mail as "you-don't-want-it-mail"?
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I've been watching you for a year grab the first spot in the comments section with a short blurb, then editing it later to make it just long enough your sig appears, so.....

But you're certainly welcome to your opinion the suit will do nothing, but I'm still not sure your opinion is based on any reasonable industry observations.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13607850 Wed, 08 Jun 2005 12:11:41 EDT Re: Symantec taking cowards way out http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13607783 TKJunkMail :
said by Karl Bode See Profile:

read the thread I linked to in our security forum. I can't see why anyone would be against a Symantec legal victory.
I'll ignore your personal slams, but I have read the thread. And nowhere did I say I hope Symantec loses(brush up on YOUR reading skills). But I don't think Symantec will necessarily win and even if they do, will it help end this adware scourge.
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quote:
This lawsuit has almost no chance, even if Symantec wins, of ending the flood of ads by these adware companies.


Really, with all due respect, you should spam your blog less, and read more. You'll find nearly everyone who watches this sector thinks this is a landmark move.

If Symantec wins, a precedent is set that protects adware removal tools from having to dumb down their definition files, meaning better detection and removal.

Even if you want to keep pretending you understand this topic, I can't see why anyone would be against a Symantec legal victory.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13607719 Wed, 08 Jun 2005 11:57:52 EDT Re: Symantec taking cowards way out http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13607680 cdru :
said by TKJunkMail See Profile:

And if they lose? Which is a 50-50 proposition. What does that do for the cause?
Not really. Declaratory judgements, like the one filed here, are usually done after the company is reasonably sure that they are correct, but just want the extra weight of a judicial ruling to back it up officially. If the company was only 50/50 sure it was right, they likely wouldn't go after a declaratory judgement as it could just as easily go against them as it would be for them. If it went against them, and they continued on with their practices, additional punitive damages could be awarded in a later lawsuit as they couldn't say they didn't know they were in the wrong.

In this case, Symantec I think has correctly ascertained that they are in the clear, but they just want a judge to say so. Going this route is cheaper then a civil lawsuit filed by an adware company. Plus hopefully with a precedent, it stops further companies from going after Symantec. That what this does for their cause. The side effect is that it also has the likely potential to benefit not just them but the industry as well.
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said by Damon85 See Profile:

"Spyware" as a label could be considered defamatory in regards to the spyware makers. I think we should just call all of it "I-don't-want-it-ware" (not "you-don't-want-it-ware") because that's definitely a personal opinion and can't be construed as defamatory.
Sure and we shouldn't call black for black but rather "not-so-white".]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13607578 Wed, 08 Jun 2005 11:41:48 EDT Re: Symantec taking cowards way out http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13607566 TKJunkMail :
said by wriley See Profile:

So by your own explanation this could well give spyware vendor PRECEDENT which says that other companies cannot remove spyware and adware.
You are right. Most here assume Symantec will win. I am not so sure, especially on appeal, and especially from a court in So.California, where the Supreme Court overturns them consistently.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13607566 Wed, 08 Jun 2005 11:40:33 EDT Re: Symantec taking cowards way out http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13607548 JPCass : Eventually this issue will get to court somehow, and any ruling will at least set an effective precedent for the attorneys who are now going around and threatening the smaller vendors. So it's better that a player with resources and good lawyers be the one to take it to court.

And if the ruling goes against them, then I'd hazard a guess that Symantec and other big corporate players will throw their weight around to push for a change in the underlying laws.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13607548 Wed, 08 Jun 2005 11:38:30 EDT Re: Symantec taking cowards way out http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13607514 Damon85 : "Spyware" as a label could be considered defamatory in regards to the spyware makers. I think we should just call all of it "I-don't-want-it-ware" (not "you-don't-want-it-ware") because that's definitely a personal opinion and can't be construed as defamatory.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13607514 Wed, 08 Jun 2005 11:34:44 EDT Re: Symantec taking cowards way out http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13607486 wriley : So by your own explanation this could well give spyware vendor PRECEDENT which says that other companies cannot remove spyware and adware.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13607486 Wed, 08 Jun 2005 11:30:41 EDT Re: Symantec taking cowards way out http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13607416 Rogue Wolf :
said by TKJunkMail See Profile:

In any case, win or lose, IMO this case will have no lasting result on this battle at all. The adware delivering companies will just move out of the court's jurisdiction.

If this problem is ever to be resolved, the law needs to be changed making the companies advertising thru these adware software companies responsible. And I doubt the politicians will ever take this step.
I'm not certain you understand how the American legal system works. Precedent is one of the most powerful things in a court of law. And at any rate, this suit is likely less about stopping the adware companies themselves, and more about giving a legal shield to the ANTI-adware companies against constant frivolous threats of legal action. A company who has moved to another country to avoid legal action would have a much harder time initiating it against the likes of Symantec et al.
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The "spyware" label is the opinion of the developers as to the quality of the product. The users aren't forced to accept this opinion. In fact, all of the spyware removal programs I've used require the user to confirm each product removal. If Symantec argues that giving the application an adware or spyware rating is well within their rights of expressing an opinion, I don't see them losing.

EDIT: Ignore that. As cdru See Profile pointed out, this is a declaratory judgement. Basically Symantec is asking the court to rule without a trial. If the judgement is denied, then all the spyware vendors gain is a full trial. If they win that trial, however, then my striked-out post might apply.

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said by Jason Levine See Profile:

The flood of ads, no. The flood of lawsuits threatening anyone who dares call their products adware, spyware, or malware? Yes.
Correct and flood of counter-lawsuits by antispy sw vendors. :)

If Symantec wins this suit, then there will be legal precedent establishing that their definition of "adware" is an opinion that they are free to express. Once this is established, then any lawsuit threats can be countered with a fax of this ruling and a "go ahead and sue me" note. I really don't see Symantec losing this one.
Completely agree.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13607380 Wed, 08 Jun 2005 11:13:34 EDT Re: Symantec taking cowards way out http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13607369 Jason Levine : The flood of ads, no. The flood of lawsuits threatening anyone who dares call their products adware, spyware, or malware? Yes.

If Symantec wins this suit, then there will be legal precedent establishing that their definition of "adware" is an opinion that they are free to express. Once this is established, then any lawsuit threats can be countered with a fax of this ruling and a "go ahead and sue me" note. I really don't see Symantec losing this one.
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And you're quite wrong again: if they win, ad companies will be sued 'en masse' by all the antispy sw vendors.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13607340 Wed, 08 Jun 2005 11:08:47 EDT Re: Symantec taking cowards way out http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13607300 TKJunkMail :
said by kamm See Profile:

You're completely missing the point, pal.

Ever heard about precedent cases? This is one of them.

And you are swimming against the tide, pal. This lawsuit has almost no chance, even if Symantec wins, of ending the flood of ads by these adware companies.
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said by TKJunkMail See Profile:

said by Karl Bode See Profile:

100% incorrect.

The goal here is to set legal precedent for future cases showing detection and removal of these programs is legal. This aids Symantec's fight against all other adware vendors. In fact if they win, it aids all spyware removal companies.

It should bring some absolutes to a very muddy argument.
And if they lose? Which is a 50-50 proposition. What does that do for the cause?

In any case, win or lose, IMO this case will have no lasting result on this battle at all. The adware delivering companies will just move out of the court's jurisdiction.

If this problem is ever to be resolved, the law needs to be changed making the companies advertising thru these adware software companies responsible. And I doubt the politicians will ever take this step.

P.S. LOL - 100% incorrect Karl?? I see you haven't lost your penchant for hyperbole.
You're completely missing the point, pal.

Ever heard about precedent cases? This is one of them.

PS: I, for one, certainly welcome this and if Symantec winbs this case - which I expect -, I'll buy two subscriptions from them immediately (desktop+laptop), in return for their great action.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13607204 Wed, 08 Jun 2005 10:45:14 EDT Re: Symantec taking cowards way out http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13607141 wriley : maybe the ruling will help consumers, but if the ruling goes the other way it will severly hurt. And will set a presedent for future cases against spyware removal companies. They should have just done it like counterspy and the other good removal companies.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13607141 Wed, 08 Jun 2005 10:36:40 EDT Re: Symantec taking cowards way out??? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13606812 JPCass : No, this seems to me like a sound move that should benefit everyone, based on the old principle that the best defense is a good offense.

Symantec has the deepest pockets, and presumably the best lawyers, so they are best suited to take on the ad-/spy-ware companies in court - and win. Assuming they win, it sets a precedent, and it will be much harder for those companies' lawyers to go around threatening anyone, particularly the smaller players in the business.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13606812 Wed, 08 Jun 2005 09:57:35 EDT Re: Symantec taking cowards way out http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13606797 Karl Bode : It's not hyperbole. Your post was completely wrong. It's a great pre-emptive strike on Symantec's part, and one they should win.

quote:
In any case, win or lose, IMO this case will have no lasting result on this battle at all.


Apparently Spyware researchers Eric Howes and Ben Edelman, who spend the majority of their waking hours studying this subject, don't agree:

Don't believe me? Ask them:

»Symantec Files Suit Against Hotbar in Adware Case]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13606797 Wed, 08 Jun 2005 09:56:08 EDT Re: Symantec taking cowards way out http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13606746 TKJunkMail :
said by Karl Bode See Profile:

100% incorrect.

The goal here is to set legal precedent for future cases showing detection and removal of these programs is legal. This aids Symantec's fight against all other adware vendors. In fact if they win, it aids all spyware removal companies.

It should bring some absolutes to a very muddy argument.
And if they lose? Which is a 50-50 proposition. What does that do for the cause?

In any case, win or lose, IMO this case will have no lasting result on this battle at all. The adware delivering companies will just move out of the court's jurisdiction.

If this problem is ever to be resolved, the law needs to be changed making the companies advertising thru these adware software companies responsible. And I doubt the politicians will ever take this step.

P.S. LOL - 100% incorrect Karl?? I see you haven't lost your penchant for hyperbole.
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quote:
They just want to avoid being the one to make the decision.


No, they want to avoid an endless stream of court cases against fly-by night scumware operators.

The goal here is to set legal precedent for future cases showing detection and removal of these programs is legal. This aids Symantec's fight against all other adware vendors. In fact if they win, it aids all spyware removal companies.

It should bring some absolutes to a very muddy argument.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13606641 Wed, 08 Jun 2005 09:31:29 EDT Re: Symantec taking cowards way out http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13606621 garagerock : By that logic, then no one should ever do anything about spyware except to continue removing it? What happens when spyware finally outruns the products that remove them?

It isn't like this is a brand new issue that went to court days after it appeared. This has been going on for some time, and maybe it is time to address this legally, once and for all.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13606621 Wed, 08 Jun 2005 09:28:26 EDT Re: Symantec taking cowards way out http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13606606 cork1958 : Exactamundo!!(?)

Haven't been a fan of Symantec/Norton for a long time, but GIVE 'EM HELL Symantec!! Hotbar has been one of the longest running, nastiest spywares around.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13606606 Wed, 08 Jun 2005 09:25:40 EDT Symantec taking cowards way out http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13606550 TKJunkMail : Symantec should have just stuck to their guns and continued to remove Hotbar as an adware product and waited to be sued if Hotbar had the guts to sue them. Instead they go to court and ASK the government to back them. In effect, passing the decision on to the court as to whether Hotbar is adware or not. Symantec knows Hotbar is adware. They just want to avoid being the one to make the decision.
Symantec is not seeking damages as part of the suit. Symantec is petitioning for a declaratory judgment by the court affirming Symantec's assertion that certain Hotbar program files are indeed adware and can be treated as computer security risks.

"By asking the court for clarification on this issue in our favor, we hope to continue alerting our customers about the presence of these program files, protecting them against possible security risks," said Joy Cartun, senior director of legal affairs for Symantec. "Through this effort, we're trying to ensure that our customers have more control over the programs that run on their computers."
This is nothing but a PR move on Symantecs part. If they win the case they look like good guys. And if they lose, which is very possible, they can tell their customers it isn't their fault but the courts.

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