 KrispyPremium,VIP
join:2001-12-11
the stix
kudos:1 | reply to dnobel
Re: [Burloak] No email to any Hotmail addresses Noticed this »www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/21449···ts-apple and this, »www.macnn.com/articles/05/10/27/···ts.mail/ early this morning. Note, I have no idea who they called as my phone hasn't been ringing and I haven't had anyone approach me to ask about it...first I heard about it was in the articles above.
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you can lead a horse to the water but you cannot make him drink...you can put a man through school but you cannot make him think --ben harper |
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johnb5
join:2005-10-28
Oakville, ON | Hi Krispy. I'm working on posting a story on this for the online news site Cartt.ca
Can you send me your contact information so I can email you a few questions to get Cogeco's response to this problem.
Cheers,
John |
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KrispyPremium,VIP
join:2001-12-11
the stix
kudos:1 | I'll IM you but I don't have much to say about it at the moment! I haven't heard or been told of any Mac related hotmail problems but I've pinged out to our call centre to ask if they did but so far no response.
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you can lead a horse to the water but you cannot make him drink...you can put a man through school but you cannot make him think --ben harper |
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 dnobel
join:2005-08-30
Oakville, ON | reply to dnobel
So this is The Big Problem That Doesn't Exist. Microsoft isn't talking, the ISPs aren't talking. I find the cloak of denial around this whole affair frankly chilling: a dirty little secret that no one wants to own. Bloody wonderful. |
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KrispyPremium,VIP
join:2001-12-11
the stix
kudos:1 | said by dnobel:So this is The Big Problem That Doesn't Exist. Microsoft isn't talking, the ISPs aren't talking. I find the cloak of denial around this whole affair frankly chilling: a dirty little secret that no one wants to own. Bloody wonderful. I'm from an ISP and I'm talking about it and the message is....hotmail delivery is an intermittent issue always, hotmail answer (if you can get anything) is always "known issue, we're working on it" so we don't even bother to ask anymore. As for Mac specific issues...no idea, I've pinged out to our call centre to see if they're getting calls but I've not heard about it and I usually hear of such things. To be clear, we're doing nothing to filter/block/anything hotmail regardless of OS and, in fact, we have to do many a creative thing to ensure hotmail delivery issues (again, on hotmail side) don't impact the rest of our mail delivery so if anything we try to make it work better.
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you can lead a horse to the water but you cannot make him drink...you can put a man through school but you cannot make him think --ben harper |
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dnobel
join:2005-08-30
Oakville, ON | And of course all the posts here from the Cogeco employees are always appreciated, and thank you for them.
The problem is the effort required to have an inkling of what the trouble is, not to speak of getting it resolved. I have spent inordinate time on the phone with both Microsoft and Cogeco tech support trying to identify this issue, to no avail. So if I call Cogeco today, will I get the informed response you posted here? Or even something close to it? That would be new and different from the last time. In the end, I have to get answers on this outside forum, something many Cogeco subscribers are not likely to typically do.
The problem may be "intermittent" in general, but for me it remains a persistent inability to get email through to any hotmail address, a significant issue in a world where so many people use it for their primary email. Regardless of who is at fault, the way this is being handled as a customer service issue is inadequate all around.
I stand by my original comments. |
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KrispyPremium,VIP
join:2001-12-11
the stix
kudos:1 | Ok, I understand what you're saying now, I didn't understand you were referencing customer service specifically.
Well unfortunately I don't have much to say that will change your opinion, I know I do the best I can do to keep the call centre staff informed but I am but one person and they are but many, many, MANY people. It's a challenge in all call centres to get uniform answers, there are many processes in place to identify process breakdowns but that's always closing the barn door after the horse has taken off which doesn't help you.
From my point of view, the information has been provided to the call centre support personnel that are to distribute this information, what the rep says when he/she answers the phone is beyond my control. Sadly I can't disagree with your comments which is one of the reasons I do hang out here but I will say that I'm consistently trying to change this but it's very slow.
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you can lead a horse to the water but you cannot make him drink...you can put a man through school but you cannot make him think --ben harper |
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dnobel
join:2005-08-30
Oakville, ON | Your efforts are GREATLY appreciated, and thank god for this forum.
Just got off the phone with Cogeco tech support and once again, no acknowledgement of the issues; I am again disappointed.
Oh, well... |
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1 edit | reply to dnobel
said by dnobel:The problem is the effort required to have an inkling of what the trouble is, not to speak of getting it resolved. I have spent inordinate time on the phone with both Microsoft and Cogeco tech support trying to identify this issue, If you want the issue in a nutshell, what was mentioned earlier in this thread is twofold:
1) Hotmail randomly and for long periods of time has multiple Mail Exchangers that are totally non-responsive. At the time of this posting only 9 of 17 IP addresses that are listed as mail exchangers (inbound mail) for Hotmail.com actually answer to an attempted TCP connection to port 25. Whether or not this is some attempt at load balancing, unscheduled outages, or desired behaviour on Hotmail's side, from a pure SMTP protocol point of view damn near 50% of all sessions initiated to deliver mail to Hotmail will fail to even elicit a response, let alone deliver mail! Not only is this worse than a refused connection (since a non-response causes the sending server to wait for a network timeout) it's also pretty annoying.
2) As referenced earlier in this very thread, even after a delivery has made it to hotmail's servers, there is sometimes hours of delay between injection into hotmail's mail cluster and delivery to the subscriber's mailbox.
These two issues cause erratic service quality--and the nature of customer service interactions with ISPs and their customers causes ISPs in particular to be overly sensitive to Hotmail's predicament. ISPs bend over backwards to ensure that their delivery is accepted by Hotmail despite all of Hotmail's unreliability.
All that said, the amount of mail that Hotmail has to accept, parse, filter and deliver in a given day is astronomical.
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Some people think I'm an idiot. I disagree, but idiocy is subjective--so they may well be right. With this in mind, take everything I post with a grain of salt, eh? |
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johnb5
join:2005-10-28
Oakville, ON | reply to Krispy
I don't know how to use IM on this forum. Can you just contact me via my email address. I would like to use the information you have provided here for the sytory, but need to get a proper name and title from you. |
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| @johnb
click on nevertheless' avatar pic and it will take you to his user profile page. The IM box is at the top of the user profile page.  |
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dnobel
join:2005-08-30
Oakville, ON | reply to nevertheless
O.K., this is strange and interesting.
After reading the vnunet.com article linked in an early post in this thread, I tried changing the message priority in OS X Mail when sending to a Hotmail address. Messages sent either low and high priority get through in a timely way; normal priority messages still do not get through at all.
This is the first time I have been able to send successfully to a hotmail address in many, many weeks. It's a bit of a PITA, but, hey! If this keeps working, I am a happy camper.
Cogeco tech support should be aware that this can be an effective fix for Mac subscribers. |
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2 edits | said by dnobel:After reading the vnunet.com article linked in an early post in this thread, I tried changing the message priority in OS X Mail when sending to a Hotmail address. Messages sent either low and high priority get through in a timely way; normal priority messages still do not get through at all. Can you email me one with normal priority and one with low or high priority? nevertheless AT SINE cogeco.ca
I'm quite certain it's not a filter on our end, but I'd like to make sure.
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Some people think I'm an idiot. I disagree, but idiocy is subjective--so they may well be right. With this in mind, take everything I post with a grain of salt, eh? |
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 AsawulfIgnorance is blissVIP
join:2005-08-17
Trois-Rivieres, QC
kudos:3 | reply to dnobel
said by dnobel:This is the first time I have been able to send successfully to a hotmail address in many, many weeks. It's a bit of a PITA, but, hey! If this keeps working, I am a happy camper. Cogeco tech support should be aware that this can be an effective fix for Mac subscribers. What always amazes me is that people think it's the ISPs responsibility to provide help for a problem about Hotmail's servers.
What you prolly got as an answer when you called Cogeco's CC is :
1) (before the problem is identified) "We don't know what's happening, what's the error message? ... With your error message it says it's on Hotmail's side"
2) (when the problem is known) "The problem is on Hotmail's side, nothing we can do, sorry"
Does that surprises you? Not me, since when does Cogeco has to find work-around for users not even using their Cogeco's services?
ie: if you buy a car and put your own audio system, will you call your car dealer if you have problems with it ? They'll simply say to refer yourself to the seller of your audio system...
As for your last part :
"Cogeco tech support should be aware that this can be an effective fix for Mac subscribers."
I seriously doubt Cogeco Tech Support has the time to check personally for each and every problem and find a workaround for every problem a client can have... (especially with all the problem NOT coming from Cogeco) Can you really imagine the amount of work that would represent ??? It's not only unthinkable, it's unimaginable...  |
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 shwingA Sphincter Says What ?
join:2002-11-14
1 edit | Asawulf said:
"...ie: if you buy a car and put your own audio system, will you call your car dealer if you have problems with it ? They'll simply say to refer yourself to the seller of your audio system..."
LOL, so....using you car theory...if you are having problems with your car, and take it back to the dealer who sold you said car you would not want the dealer to "check personally for each and every problem and find a workaround for every problem" lol...would you just..."ok that's cool, then hand him a check for the labour costs and walk home?
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dnobel
join:2005-08-30
Oakville, ON | reply to Asawulf
said by Asawulf 
:What always amazes me is that people think it's the ISPs responsibility to provide help for a problem about Hotmail's servers. For a long time, it was far from clear where the problem was. There are never any bounced emails or error messages--only the fact that mail isn't getting through. Therefore...
said by Asawulf
:What you prolly got as an answer when you called Cogeco's CC is : 1) (before the problem is identified) "We don't know what's happening, what's the error message? ... With your error message it says it's on Hotmail's side" 2) (when the problem is known) "The problem is on Hotmail's side, nothing we can do, sorry" ... that kind of exchange never happened, because the problem was never clearly identified.
said by Asawulf
:Does that surprises you? Not me, since when does Cogeco has to find work-around for users not even using their Cogeco's services? I'm a Cogeco subscriber, and the problem is definitely mine. Any mysterious inability to communicate at all with anyone on the biggest email system on the planet, handler of billions of messages, the McDonalds of email, is believe me, my problem. And when at some point this becomes delineated as a large-scale issue involving thousands of people around the world and not just my little personal headache, yes, I expect my ISP to a) be aware that there is a problem and b) acknowledge it, along with their inability to do anything about it, to customers. I file this under Basic Awareness of the Technological Universe We Occupy So as Not to be a Burden on Our Customers Through Gratuitous Ignorance--otherwise known as Customer Service Square One.
Also, at no time did anyone in the normal tech support channels offer to actually check to see if my messages were leaving the Cogeco server--one of the Cogeco people on this forum eventually did that. And at no time did any of the phone tech support staff direct me to this forum; I had to find it on my own.
said by Asawulf
:ie: if you buy a car and put your own audio system, will you call your car dealer if you have problems with it ? They'll simply say to refer yourself to the seller of your audio system... Is that the way it looks to you? To me it looks more like this:
You buy a car stereo from a line that is advertised to be able to hook up into the dash of all major vehicles. Unbeknownst to anybody, one of the largest car manufacturers has a production screw-up so that the dash of the extremely popular car you buy will no longer accept your particular stereo. After selling you the vehicle, the auto dealer is not particularly interested in helping you with the problem since he sells his own stereo; so your are left with a stereo that you can't use. Clearly, this is not the stereo manufacturer's fault, but at this point no one knows this. So you go back to back to the stereo dealer. Now what would be an acceptable response from the stereo dealer?
a) The stereo dealer has no knowledge of the problem. He tells you to make sure you are following the directions in the manual for installation. When this doesn't work, he throws up his hands and says, "Sorry, it must be something wrong with the car. Can't help you." You hang out in front of the store looking for other people who have the same problem so that maybe you can get a clue.
b) The stereo dealer has no knowledge of the problem. He tells you to make sure you are following the directions in the manual for installation. When this doesn't work, he asks you to bring in your unit so he can make sure it's not defective. When it checks out fine, he says, "This auto maker is notoriously non-responsive, but I will keep this problem on my radar, and I'll report it to the manufacturer. If we get any information on this, our manufacturer will post it on their Web site, so keep checking back." Over the next few weeks, the stereo manufacturer notices that a few other people at other dealers are having trouble; the troubleshooting site goes up, briefly describing the problem and providing links to a couple of discussion articles off-site. The manufacturer doesn't have a solution, but several other stereo owners have discovered work-arounds which they share. One of them works for you. You are happy, and you are grateful to the dealer/manufacturer for caring enough to point you in the right direction.
said by Asawulf
:I seriously doubt Cogeco Tech Support has the time to check personally for each and every problem and find a workaround for every problem a client can have... Nor would I expect them to. However, I *would* expect them to be aware of a widespread general problem and to compile a link or two to information that might help their customers deal with said problem. And to be aware of fixes that might help all their subscribers using a major operating system like, say, OS X. You know, a little note in a file somewhere on their network. Yeah, I think that's reasonable, and I think that's a far cry from finding "a workaround for every problem a client can have." It's both thinkable and imaginable. |
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AsawulfIgnorance is blissVIP
join:2005-08-17
Trois-Rivieres, QC
kudos:3 | reply to shwing
said by shwing:LOL, so....using you car theory...if you are having problems with your car, and take it back to the dealer who sold you said car you would not want the dealer to "check personally for each and every problem and find a workaround for every problem" lol...would you just..."ok that's cool, then hand him a check for the labour costs and walk home? If you have a problem related to the car, yes.
If you have a problem related to the audio system; no. And that's where you seem to think that it's Cogeco's fault if Hotmail doesn't work.
Simple as that. |
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AsawulfIgnorance is blissVIP
join:2005-08-17
Trois-Rivieres, QC
kudos:3 | reply to dnobel
"For a long time, it was far from clear where the problem was. There are never any bounced emails or error messages--only the fact that mail isn't getting through. Therefore..."
-Well, therefore, Cogeco techs cannot say what it is, and will have to start looking, just like you... troubleshooting a problem before it is known is like... impossible.
"I'm a Cogeco subscriber, and the problem is definitely mine. Any mysterious inability to communicate at all with anyone on the biggest email system on the planet, handler of billions of messages, the McDonalds of email, is believe me, my problem."
-Got it... YOUR problem... If the door to your McDonald is closed, call them... Don't call Burger King...
"And when at some point this becomes delineated as a large-scale issue involving thousands of people around the world and not just my little personal headache, yes, I expect my ISP to a) be aware that there is a problem and b) acknowledge it, along with their inability to do anything about it, to customers. I file this under Basic Awareness of the Technological Universe We Occupy So as Not to be a Burden on Our Customers Through Gratuitous Ignorance--otherwise known as Customer Service Square One."
-If Hotmail doesn't acknowledge the problem, Cogeco cannot acknowledge it for them... Cogeco has to wait for them to actually say there is a problem, or for the error messages to prove it's from them. When Cogeco checks the mail server and that it's up and running, when the techs see the emails come and go, they usually know the problem ain't from their side; but without an error message, they cannot prove it to you. Your "simple" answer as " a)" would imply that Hotmail already acknowledged the problem... and in " b) " they cannot acknowledge a problem not on their server without it being already acknowledged bu the other server, which BTW was done quite late...
"Is that the way it looks to you? To me it looks more like this:" ---here I'll cut it all and assume you can scroll up to re-read what you wrote...---
response to "a)"
-Did anyone told you : "Sorry I cannot help you" ?
response to "b)"
-Hotmail is NOT in any way related to Cogeco (other than both being 2 separated mail services -in this problematic at least, since Cogeco is an mainly an ISP-) so your theory is totally invalid...
"Nor would I expect them to. However, I *would* expect them to be aware of a widespread general problem and to compile a link or two to information that might help their customers deal with said problem. And to be aware of fixes that might help all their subscribers using a major operating system like, say, OS X. You know, a little note in a file somewhere on their network. Yeah, I think that's reasonable, and I think that's a far cry from finding "a workaround for every problem a client can have." It's both thinkable and imaginable.
-I think you missed that place where I said there is no way they can do that for every problem that arises... of course today you only talk about "your" problem, but realize there is hundred of calls every day and that finding work-around for each of them is simply impossible... Live with it... If MY HOTMAIL doesn't work : it's MY HOTMAIL, not my ISP...
I would ramble it some more with you, but it's not worth it if you don't understand some basic ideas about how it all works and the interrelations between these services... |
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| reply to dnobel
I got your emails, dnobel , thanks.
The only meaningful difference between the two emails is the existance of the "X-Priority:" header. In a normal email it doesn't exist, and in one with high priority it's set to 1 (presumably it's set to something else with a low priority).
Cogeco is not doing any filtering based upon the X-Priority header.
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Some people think I'm an idiot. I disagree, but idiocy is subjective--so they may well be right. With this in mind, take everything I post with a grain of salt, eh? |
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