Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users in Security

Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users in Security http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r14447878 en Fri, 04 Dec 2009 15:19:10 EDT Fri, 04 Dec 2009 15:19:10 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14525803 Anonynona :

said by ahreraekgja :

why use old oses? try playing blood, or strife, rogue squadron, daggerfall, and a long list of dos/win9x games from pre 1999 era... on a win2k/xp system FLAWLESSLEY just like we remember it..

as much as some of those games may work on 2k/xp, not all of them work 100% stable and play as well as on their native oses, (even less when source code was never released)

Most of those not really so old "pre 1999 era" games will perform just as well on XP's that are up-to-date. XP's, running on the correct combination of hardware and (most importantly) configured correctly, having all patches, updates, drivers, et al, at current level, will run most of those just fine. Also, when it comes to games and many programs in general, "flawlessly" isn't a realistic operational description. ;) If you're a diehard gaming enthusiast, you must be aware that most of the current games, too, do not do all that well under the older opsyses.:p]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14525803 Fri, 07 Oct 2005 14:15:56 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14475725 Blackbird :

said by ahreraekgja :

try playing blood, or strife, rogue squadron, daggerfall, and a long list of dos/win9x games from pre 1999 era... on a win2k/xp system FLAWLESSLEY just like we remember it..

As an alternative (especially if you're eventually forced to migrate to a newer OS/computer), you might consider setting up an old "gaming" computer just for your legacy games... one that's never taken on-line. I've found these to be pretty inexpensive and far easier on system resources and one's own time than trying to keep such a computer secure and current against the myriad online-based attacks arising daily. I keep an old gaming system running on DOS 6.1 for some really ancient games (submarine and fighter combat simulations) that I still enjoy, but that don't play well (even under DOS) on my Win98 system. Because the computer carries just games, I don't even have antivirus installed on it - that speeds up play and fully frees up all the system resources for the games. The same principle would apply to almost any vintage game for any OS that is played off-line.
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If God wanted us to work with electrons, He'd make them big enough to see...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14475725 Fri, 30 Sep 2005 13:11:20 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14475344 anon : why use old oses? try playing blood, or strife, rogue squadron, daggerfall, and a long list of dos/win9x games from pre 1999 era... on a win2k/xp system FLAWLESSLEY just like we remember it..

as much as some of those games may work on 2k/xp, not all of them work 100% stable and play as well as on their native oses, (even less when source code was never released)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14475344 Fri, 30 Sep 2005 12:11:29 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14472876 anon : NAV is a bloated pig anyway.

NINE background processes and SIX running services.

I gave up on NAV long ago.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14472876 Fri, 30 Sep 2005 00:38:13 EDT One size does not fit all http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14472723 EGeezer :

said by wriley

:

These same people who are defending using old os's would not be defending them any more.

The guys who run those fabricating systems in the plants I mentioned in my prior post would have no benefit in moving from the 16 bit platforms required by the control programs for their stuff.

Now if they were going to plop down a few hundred grand for new production equipment and controls, they may need to include the computer platform needed for it. That's a cost analysis project that needs to be completed before deciding.

So you see, it depends on what the particular applications and environments are. Successful IT professionals look at the whole picture and make recommendations based on need, risk, costs and benefits, not on the fact that some new piece of technology has come out with bells and whistles that may be of little or no value to the business.

Some may be able to justify the move to a new platform, but their environment does not fit all.
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Every Good Electrical Engineer Zeroes Each Register]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14472723 Fri, 30 Sep 2005 00:16:41 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14471737 wriley : Im already running vista beta, it looks cool but doesnt have alot of the features the release will have. :)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14471737 Thu, 29 Sep 2005 21:44:34 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14471394 Nightfall :

said by Blackbird

:

The glaring "complaints" here, in fact, have come from those who reflexively attack folks for simply using older OSs in the first place. Hardly any of these criticisms and name-calling have been made with an open-minded inquiry into why those old OSs are actually being used... instead, imaginary stereotypes and anecdotes for such have been substituted for real thinking by the critics. Even when sound explanations for use of a legacy-OS have been suggested, these folks have blown them off or ignored them entirely. More than just insulting or frustrating people, that entire "fanboy" approach to differing opinions shuts down communications entirely. And I really don't see how that's a good thing for anyone...

I agree that there have been people that have been a little short. However, there have also been people on the other side of the spectrum taunting those that run the latest and greatest.

Unfortunately, I may have been part of this in one way or another. My quote of "out with the old and in with the new" was probably enough to cause some ripples with those who run old OS. Just like the sarcastic comment to "Run out and go buy Vista everyone." was enough to do the same thing with those who like to run the latest OS.

In my mind, I don't care what other people run. I run what helps me the most. This is what most people should be doing instead of running what other people tell them to run or what others think is the best.

That said, my second comment on Symantec choosing not to support a very old OS still stands. It was a business decision and I understand it.

This decision is what we should be discussing. Not the OS war that this thread has went down into.
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My Domain
Nightfall's Hockey and Life Journal]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14471394 Thu, 29 Sep 2005 20:51:50 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14470924 mers2 :

said by Blackbird

Unfortunately there is something in human nature that feels the need to judge and feel superior to others. Here it just gets made regarding OS, web browser, AV, etc. Security really isn't dependent on the OS you use - it's dependent on the knowledge and security set up of each individual user. There are a lot of Linux users making the same condescending statements about those who still use Windows. There are many here who use Win9x and have not been hijacked or infected.

Many security companies are still supporting Win9x users - because they recognize a large number of people/businesses are still using them. Even Microsoft extended critical hotfixes until June 2006. Symantec software has grown increasingly troublesome for users of Win2k and XP, much less Win9x users. They determined that it would be more cost efficient to leave those users out of 2006 and future versions. There are other options out there - many of us switched from Norton in the last few years because we were unhappy with the software.
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God put me on this Earth to accomplish a certain number of things. Right now, I am so far behind I will never die. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14470924 Thu, 29 Sep 2005 19:40:12 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14470387 Blackbird : Uhmmm... I'm sorry wriley

, but if DOS 5.0 was found by some user to be more appropriate to his tasks and needs, I (and some others here) would still be defending his use of it... and you'd probably still be calling him "cheap" for using it. Some of us have lived through all the OS wars, and we long ago found that bashing a legacy-OS user for his considered choices serves no useful purpose. On the other hand, if he has not thought through his choices, then indeed a reasoned-out discussion is a worthy path to follow.

And paranoidxe

, the original post here was a simple referral to Symantec's decision to end new-product support for old OSs like Win9x. Symantec has every right to make that business decision... and I have read no complaint here from Win9x users about that. Symantec has every obligation to support Win9x users for products that were sold to them with the understanding such support would be supplied - and to their credit, Symantec seems to be honoring that up through NAV2005. There have been no Win9x-user complaints here about that, either. There have been several negative comments by Win9x users (as well as XP and Linux users) about the general quality of Symantec products and support levels (or the lack thereof), as well as the annoying shortness of Symantec's current product life-cycles - but that's "fair game" in a thread addressing a corporation's products and policies.

The glaring "complaints" here, in fact, have come from those who reflexively attack folks for simply using older OSs in the first place. Hardly any of these criticisms and name-calling have been made with an open-minded inquiry into why those old OSs are actually being used... instead, imaginary stereotypes and anecdotes for such have been substituted for real thinking by the critics. Even when sound explanations for use of a legacy-OS have been suggested, these folks have blown them off or ignored them entirely. More than just insulting or frustrating people, that entire "fanboy" approach to differing opinions shuts down communications entirely. And I really don't see how that's a good thing for anyone...
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If God wanted us to work with electrons, He'd make them big enough to see...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14470387 Thu, 29 Sep 2005 18:12:36 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14469434 paranoidxe : I never upgrade to the latest version of Windows when it first becomes available, I'll wait for a service pack.
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- paranoidxe (txtfiles.org)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14469434 Thu, 29 Sep 2005 15:53:48 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14469316 wriley : If the post was about NAV no longer supporting DOS 5.0 and earlier (hypothetical) These same people who are defending using old os's would not be defending them any more. Now I know its a big diffrence but people used to say that 5.0 did all they needed and 6 was a waste of money. People said they were happy with dos and win 3.1 had no use. People defended win 3.1 as being great and upgrading to 95 pointless. The point of the story is that it may work just fine for you, but no one is going to support it and your missing out on alot of features. would you say that moving to windows from dos was just eye candy? I for one will be purchasing a new computer and the vista OS when it becomes available.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14469316 Thu, 29 Sep 2005 15:39:34 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14469236 paranoidxe : »www.w3schools.com/browsers/brows···tats.asp
WinXP 69.2%, Win2K 15.8%, Win98 3.2%, WinNT .5%

I don't think bashing people for using older operating systems is right, if the operating system works for there particular needs whats the point in wasting cash on upgrading if there is virtually no benefit of upgrading.

On the otherhand I don't think manufacturers have a obligation to support ancient operating systems for their products. If you want upgrades then its time to stop being a tight ass and upgrade.
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- paranoidxe (txtfiles.org)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14469236 Thu, 29 Sep 2005 15:28:22 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14468675 sivran :

said by Drake34

:

Actually I can't believe folks are stil using WinME. What a piece of garbage that was.

WinME works fine depending on how it's used. I have a grandparent who's still using WinME, on a Gateway P3 800 with (what I would call) low RAM. It serves his purposes well. WinME's terrible for a technophile who's always upgrading his box and trying new software and drivers, but it runs smoothly for those who are only interested in using their computer.

Hey, can I make a somewhat on-topic comment? ;)

As has been observed previously the Norton line has been more and more problematic on the 9x OSes and really, I think this was the right decision for Symantec to make. The other vendors still support 9x, for how long I don't know, but for now, they do, and with (apparently) less problems. Hell, I didn't even like what 2003 did to my system, enough that it was part of the reason I never tried later versions which caused more complaints.

As time goes on unfortunately it will become more difficult to protect a 9x machine as other vendors drop 9x support, but hopefully by then protecting a 9x machine won't be such a big issue anymore, either because there are so few left that it doesn't matter or because the threats to them die out. Virii do have lifespans. After all, when was the last time you saw the ANTI-CMOS A virus outside of a zoo? It was impotent even in the 3.1 days when I caught it (pretty sure it wasn't a false positive as it showed up on a number of my floppies)...I think I still have an infected floppy or two around somewhere that I forgot to clean... :p
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Learn about Real ID and why it's so horrible.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14468675 Thu, 29 Sep 2005 14:05:04 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14468336 Blackbird : I think a real problem here has been over-generalization, bordering on rudeness. The wisdom of using any computer hardware, OS, or application program resides in its appropriateness to the tasks at hand, viewed in the light of its actual usefulness to the people who are employing it... not in the mind of casual beholders, and not in the broad sweeping statements of either techno-fanboys or techno-Luddites. :huh:

This thread was started with an observation that a major security vendor was ending his support for an old OS - as is his legal right. That was followed mainly by a few relevant responses by affected users, with very little complaint about Symantec's business decision, per se. Then came a growing avalanche of jibes and simplistic observations about those who use old (or new) OSs, as well as about the internal design obsolescence nuances of old OSs. Very few if any of these critiques of old OSs or their users ("cheap", "don't give a hoot", un-reset digital clocks) have taken any meaningful look at just what those users of old OSs are actually doing with their computers, what apps they're using and why, what security intrusions they've experienced (if any) with their systems as they're using and configuring them... or what the wisdom of persisting in that specific usage might be in light of their individual realities and economics. This is because only those users can really draw such conclusions, at least in a limited forum like this. ;)

Put another way, if an old, paid-off, maintainable computer running DOS 6.1 is supporting some business function cost-effectively by employing several ancient, custom-built apps that still do precisely what they're supposed to, what possible threat to the XP-user universe does that represent? If individuals elect to use highly-secured Win98 computers for basic Internet interaction because they also use those same computers successfully for known-good apps that work perfectly well, but only under Win9x, why is that so disturbing to some of the technophiles among us? Breathe deeply, guys, breathe deeply... relax...! :D
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If God wanted us to work with electrons, He'd make them big enough to see...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14468336 Thu, 29 Sep 2005 13:13:26 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14468136 wriley : I could have upgraded him earlier but he thought like you do, that this is just fine for what I need. Run avg, then run norton, you will not only notice better performance with Norton but you will notice it uses less processor time and less memory.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14468136 Thu, 29 Sep 2005 12:38:26 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14468116 Drake34 : Actually I can't believe folks are stil using WinME. What a piece of garbage that was. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14468116 Thu, 29 Sep 2005 12:34:53 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14467754 B :

said by wriley

:

I will have to admit my dad was stuck in the same rut you guys are stuck in, using his dos based version of accpac on a 98 machine. And although this system seemed fine to him, now that I have upgraded him to accpac 2006, many of the things he couldn't do before he now can.

Are you sure you couldn't have upgraded him earlier? The majority of their applications at »www.accpac.com/products/system_r···ents.asp still work fine with Windows 98.

I find it upsetting that you've made claims about Win98's vulnerability, but have completely failed to back them up when asked. You also claim that Norton antivirus products use LESS system resources than AVG? Are you kidding?

-- B
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In a realm outside causality and function]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14467754 Thu, 29 Sep 2005 11:41:25 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14466920 Nightfall :

said by sivran

:

It's really amusing, I think, and yet sad at the same time, the kinds of comments that are posted when the subject of older operating systems comes up. There's just no convincing those who believe "newer is better" of their fallacy. Run out and buy Vista when it hits the shelves, kids. Run out and buy Vista.

Just like there is no convincing those who believe "older is better" of their fallacy.

Lets face it, both sides are flawed. While I would never run out and buy Windows Vista off the shelf, I would also never continue to run Windows 98 and expect all software to run on it 8 years after its release. I feel that is an unrealistic expectation. Especially with how fast technology changes. From hardware to software and programming code...it all changes so fast.

In my opinion, you can't expect companies to spend a large sum of money to support a OS that is no longer supported by the company that made it. Where is the ROI on such a product? Symantec knows it wasn't going to be making much money on that product if they made it. So why should they go through with it and face a loss on it?

It is good business sense to me.
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My Domain
Nightfall's Hockey and Life Journal]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14466920 Thu, 29 Sep 2005 09:24:28 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14466870 Nightfall :

said by Doctor Olds

said by Nightfall

:

Personally, any software that was written over 6 years ago should be phased out. Especially with how fast technology changes. The decision to not write software to support an OS that is that old is fine by me.

I am not talking about throwing out custom written applications. But lets go off on this tangent if you want to...

I have been an IT Manager/Engineer for over 7 years now. In that time, we have had custom written applications through the years. However, we never let them sit and become obselete. The whole thing comes down to changing with technology and at least staying ahead of the curve so you don't hit the embankment.

Yes, we have had to replace our custom written applications through the years. We have moved from writing them in Access to SQL to .NET and even put some on our AS400.

So why keep around an OS that was put out over 6 years ago? Furthermore, why should Norton continue to spend money and time supporting such an old OS? It starts to become an issue when you are spending thousands of dollars to support less and less workstations every year with that kind of OS on it.

Sorry, this is just common sense.
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My Domain
Nightfall's Hockey and Life Journal]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14466870 Thu, 29 Sep 2005 09:16:48 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14466678 Tuulilapsi :

said by guitarzan

:

What features are 98se users missing out on?

A security model?

said by guitarzan

:

Better security? Hmm 2 service packs and a firewall Microsoft decided it was really needed to secure XP?

A firewall is necessary to secure any OS designed for heavy networking. The service packs aren't first and foremost security patches. SP2 introduced security features (like DEP) that are impossible in 9x Windows versions, but it doesn't fix any significant flaw in the XP security model. It's mostly cosmetics, such as "improvements" to IE, which 9x users could use just as much (or little, if they're knowledgeable).

said by Blackbird

:

*snip* ... And under those usage conditions, I submit that a 9x system is just as robust in security as anything else including XP, in actual practice.

Well, no - unless your idea of common sense does not include, for some incomprehensible reason, the concept of least privilege. :huh:

As for Norton not supporting 9x any longer, that doesn't much surprise me. Do we design all new software to support DOS?
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And lead me not into temptation - for I can find my way there myself easily enough.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14466678 Thu, 29 Sep 2005 08:24:55 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14466248 Blackbird :

said by loopy2003

:

You need to use common sense no matter which OS you use. However, even with all the common sense in the world, it only takes 1 chance when you accidentally click on a link or something that could cause a buffer-overflow in IE and get you infected... just once !!! ... Again I'm not saying that just by upgrading to the latest OS you are protected out of the box... NO. Rather you need to use common senseSo how does all of this applies to the original posting. Well, for anyone that is serious about security, you need to start by installing a secure OS, configure it for security (since XP is not by default), then you install NAV/NIS. With 9x you are really starting off on the wrong foot.

But to me, "common sense" in using Win98 means shutting off ActiveX and tightening up a host of other IE security settings, then using FireFox and Opera as one's web-browsers with Java normally shut off, and using non-standard eMail browsers like PocoMail that have inherent HTML/attachment immunities. It means employing layered security programs. It means closing and keeping blocked virtually all extraneous ports. It means practicing habitual avoidance of dangerous website categories (we all know what those are :D) and file downloading practices. And under those usage conditions, I submit that a 9x system is just as robust in security as anything else including XP, in actual practice. In fact, those are recommendable procedures even for XP systems.

One can theorize forever about what any OS might do "out of the box," but the question to me is how the OS performs when employed with appropriate common sense and prudence. At this stage of the game, it's also hard to picture most folks still operating 9x systems who don't qualify as common sense users. I would think that most of those who use systems otherwise will have compromised and trashed their 9x units long ago and have eagerly migrated to new 2K or XP systems - where, in spite of the latest attempts by MS to protect them from themselves, they are busily clogging those computers with trash and infections. ;)
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If God wanted us to work with electrons, He'd make them big enough to see...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14466248 Thu, 29 Sep 2005 04:40:58 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14465974 loopy2003 :

quote:
I fail to see how this applies exclusively to 9x

You are right. You need to use common sense no matter which OS you use. However, even with all the common sense in the world, it only takes 1 chance when you accidentally click on a link or something that could cause a buffer-overflow in IE and get you infected... just once !!! No one is perfect all the time. Everyone makes mistakes. Now, if you were running IE with least privilege on XP, chances are that the compromised IE process will not be able to modify anything outside the temp files folder. However, if you were running 9x, its game over.

Again I'm not saying that just by upgrading to the latest OS you are protected out of the box... NO. Rather you need to use common sense no doubt, but the new OSes provide you the tools to build a more secure environment. As you well know, Windows Vista makes "least privilege" the norm rather than the exception.

If you haven't already I would encourage you to see the book "Programming Windows Security" by Keith Brown.

So how does all of this applies to the original posting. Well, for anyone that is serious about security, you need to start by installing a secure OS, configure it for security (since XP is not by default), then you install NAV/NIS. With 9x you are really starting off on the wrong foot.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14465974 Thu, 29 Sep 2005 02:16:28 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14465922 sivran : It's really amusing, I think, and yet sad at the same time, the kinds of comments that are posted when the subject of older operating systems comes up. There's just no convincing those who believe "newer is better" of their fallacy. Run out and buy Vista when it hits the shelves, kids. Run out and buy Vista.

quote:
And no.. common sense WILL NOT protect you in all cases. Common sense revolves around trust.. You trust your bank site therefore you visit it.. you try your popular news site, therefore you visit it. If any of those sites unknowingly violate that trust by say pulling JPEGS from a third party site, and that 3rd party site gets compromised then you are screwed. You will get infected if you dont have IDS or AV just by browsing to a site you have been browsing to for years. The only common sense that can save you is not browsing, not emailing, not using the web essentially and not having any way to insert removable media into the PC

I fail to see how this applies exclusively to 9x and not to 2000/XP/2003. If this was not your intent then what was your point in saying it? It does not support your argument.
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Learn about Real ID and why it's so horrible.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14465922 Thu, 29 Sep 2005 02:03:10 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14465818 Blackbird :

said by wriley

:

I would have to agree, the amount of time wasted, and the time spent fixing and re-fixing old software Is not worth it for most business's. ... Sometimes you just have to make the upgrade before you will notice an improvement.

Excuse me? "Fixing and re-fixing old software?" The whole object of the continuing use of legacy systems by knowledgeable people is to use proven, debugged, and trusted software in environments where those specific elements make the most sense... the 'weak' apps have all been tossed from the system years earlier! What remains is generally "golden" for those who persist in using it, for the purposes they intend. For such folks, the "wasted time and fixing" far, far too often come in with new systems and their new software - staff-wide retraining, software and hardware teething bugs/hiccups, surprise clashes of one new app with another at the worst possible moments, and culture clashes of smooth-flowing corporate work processes with the often bewildering demands of process changes driven by quirks in the new software.

Don't make the mistake of assuming those who retain legacy systems are unfamiliar with new computers, OSs, and apps - they don't live in isolated bubbles. Many of us "have other lives" and use fully 'modern' systems in other places and scenarios. Indeed, there are many times and places where it makes complete sense to bite the bullet and pay the upgrade/migration costs in time and money. But not for all situations, and not for all users. Until you've set at his keyboard, doing his daily tasks, and evaluating his detailed cost/results tradeoffs, please don't broadly criticize his particular system choices.
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If God wanted us to work with electrons, He'd make them big enough to see...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14465818 Thu, 29 Sep 2005 01:26:25 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14465067 pvale : I'll have you to know that every thing in the house that has a clock display, including the DVD players, the VCRS, microwave, TV, several radios are showing the right time on their display devices. IPCop runs a NTP server, and all the computers run a client at bootup to get the time. This includes (1) Win95 box(rarely booted), (1) XP machine, (1)WinME machine, and several Linux boxes that serve things internal and external. I can't stand a flashing clock display. Since this PIII-500Mhz laptop is dog slow on even win2K, I guess I'll use WinME until it dies. I've upgraded it to max mem and HD. BTW, there is even an application called VMWARE that will let you run legacy apps in a virtual machine under XP. I have applications at work that won't run on any Op Sys that doesn't have a real DOS mode.
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14465067 Wed, 28 Sep 2005 23:18:33 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14464846 DSL4Brains :

said by wriley

:

WHy is anyone still running pre xp and 2k os's? Is there any reasons besides being cheap?

It's also widely known that those running antiquated O/S's also have at least one VCR in the household that has been flashing 12:00AM non-stop for the last ten years.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14464846 Wed, 28 Sep 2005 22:40:56 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14462458 Doctor Olds :

said by Nightfall

You've never run a Business and it shows. You cannot simply throw out a custom written application made for your business when the replacement development costs are in excess of $15,000 to $20,000 USD just because it is old. If it works properly, has zero issues, then it is just stupid and wasteful to do so. You would be basically killing your own business.
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What’s the point of owning a supercar if you can’t scare yourself stupid from time to time?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14462458 Wed, 28 Sep 2005 17:18:37 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14462430 wriley :

said by Nightfall

said by SUMware

said by Nightfall

:

Out with the old and in with the new.

Indeed.

I'm dual booting between 98SE and the latest Linux versions (free!).

Out with the old includes Microsoft.

I would have to agree, the amount of time wasted, and the time spent fixing and re-fixing old software Is not worth it for most business's. I will have to admit my dad was stuck in the same rut you guys are stuck in, using his dos based version of accpac on a 98 machine. And although this system seemed fine to him, now that I have upgraded him to accpac 2006, many of the things he couldn't do before he now can. Many processes that were manual before are now automatic. His financial statments are done in half the time now and have much fewer errors. His payroll is done in a quarter of the time it used to. His payroll updates are now automatic. Inventory is now tracked in real time and ordering done online. Sometimes you just have to make the upgrade before you will notice an improvement.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14462430 Wed, 28 Sep 2005 17:14:42 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14462327 Nightfall :

said by SUMware

said by Nightfall

:

Out with the old and in with the new.

Indeed.

I'm dual booting between 98SE and the latest Linux versions (free!).

Out with the old includes Microsoft.

More power to you.

Personally, any software that was written over 6 years ago should be phased out. Especially with how fast technology changes. The decision to not write software to support an OS that is that old is fine by me.
--
My Domain
Nightfall's Hockey and Life Journal]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14462327 Wed, 28 Sep 2005 17:00:14 EDT Re:WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14461642 EGeezer :

said by Blackbird

:

Legacy application compatibility for critical software is one. Operating familiarity and avoidance of costly software learning curves are others. Though it's too often overlooked, there's the whole time/expense fur-ball that almost always results from buying and bringing a new computer "up to speed". That frequently forces the collateral purchase of a whole array of peripheral hardware because some of one's older accessories won't work well with the new box; it almost always forces purchase of an entire complement of updated and costly security software, as well as numerous expensive apps upgrades (since one's old ones all too often won't play with the new OS). All this set-up and futzing around frequently leads to many kinds of fresh interactive quirks, hiccups, and error-messages that never existed with the old, essentially fully-debugged and smoothed-out OS and apps.

You must have worked with some of the same manufacturing operations I did :D

For example, I know some fabrication systems that are controlled by DOS and WIN9x PCs. The shop guys keep a stock of PCs and parts for them since the updated control software costs major bucks to replace plus having to buy or upgrade presses, saws, shears, conveyors, stackers etc.

The cost of the PC and operating system is a tiny fraction of these guys' upgrade costs if they had to go to XP.
--
Every
Good
Electrical
Engineer
Zeroes
Each
Register]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14461642 Wed, 28 Sep 2005 15:29:45 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14461635 SUMware :

said by Nightfall

:

Out with the old and in with the new.

Indeed.

I'm dual booting between 98SE and the latest Linux versions (free!).

Out with the old includes Microsoft.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14461635 Wed, 28 Sep 2005 15:28:31 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14461553 Nightfall : 98 and ME is well over 6 years old. Out with the old and in with the new.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14461553 Wed, 28 Sep 2005 15:17:52 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14461504 wriley : Nav uses less mem and proc time then AVG and mcafee. I dont find it bloated at all. I actually notice no change from having it installed or uninstalled. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14461504 Wed, 28 Sep 2005 15:11:21 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14461428 Trooper : Does it really matter? I think people should upgrade who are still running 98 anyway. Plus NAV is bloatware imho.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14461428 Wed, 28 Sep 2005 14:57:59 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14461309 Blackbird :

said by wriley

:

But yes for people who use the computer the same way they did in 98 then I guess it would be fine.

And there you have it...! Though I'd alter that comment to change the year to late 2003, which is the point that frequent Win98 updating (other than critical patches) by MS tapered off. As I noted earlier, there are many users out there who do, in fact, want their computers to be a largely unchanging platform on which they can do consistent work with a minimum of hassle, and they choose to cling to a working computer/OS combination for a very long time. If you're into "top-ten" gaming or the latest technology-challenging software apps, then the computer/OS/apps upgrade treadmill may be a worthwhile tradeoff choice for you. But that choice IS a tradeoff decision... and the choice we make identifies us as neither "cheap" nor "wasteful" - just... different.
--
If God wanted us to work with electrons, He'd make them big enough to see...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14461309 Wed, 28 Sep 2005 14:39:49 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14460766 wriley : If all you do is surf the web a bit then I would agree that win 98 is perfect for you. But alot of people want to do more then that. The video editing software and graphic design software for 98 is not nearly as good as the xp compatible versions. None of the games that me and my GF play are 98 compatible. 98 does not have the eye candy, nor the security, nor the speed, nor the power that xp has for what I use it for. But yes for people who use the computer the same way they did in 98 then I guess it would be fine.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14460766 Wed, 28 Sep 2005 13:17:55 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14460738 guitarzan : Thank You Blackbird SR for posting that well said. :) I can purchase XP pro anytime i want.I do not live in poverty far from it.However I don't feel the need of "blind stupidity" to follow the "dude you gotta upgrade because XP is so cool and 98se is lame" mentality that's so rampant on this forum.I guess if everybody jumped off a bridge, then i will no doubt have to as well.Some body needs to jump in and try to save people. lmao
--
Bass....the glue of rhythm and harmony...the heartbeat of the band.! Shaking the earth with deep,sonorous vibrations.The dark ominous thunder of an approching storm.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14460738 Wed, 28 Sep 2005 13:13:21 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14460638 guitarzan :

said by wriley

:

Windows 98 had many security problems and the Internet browser is not very security minded at all.

You mean it's not the same browser being exploited on XP?

said by wriley

:

It just seems that people would be missing alot.

What features or bugs are 98se users missing out on.? Better security? Hmm 2 service packs and a firewall Microsoft decided it was really needed to secure XP.?

Maybe XP has better eye candy? I'll give you that.IMO eye candy doesn't server much of a purpose other than to show a different version of Windows.I tested XP Vs 98Se my dsl speed is the same on either OS,both being tweaked-same speed no difference.

Google earth does not work with 98se.While its fun to mess around with,it's no big web enriching feature.Sure some games require XP.I have over 70 games that work just fine with 98 se + all my other appliciations.Everything i need to do or run works as needed.I have no reason to switch OS's just because XP is newer.IMO whatever works for one is the bottom line.As an added bonus i won't have to deal with Trusted" computing and DRM in the near future.I'll wait to see how all that BS pans out :)

--
Bass....the glue of rhythm and harmony...the heartbeat of the band.! Shaking the earth with deep,sonorous vibrations.The dark ominous thunder of an approching storm.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14460638 Wed, 28 Sep 2005 12:59:31 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14460435 wriley :

said by Doctor Olds

said by wriley

:

But 98 has little to no security and out of the box I can crash your 98 machine with a single packet or gain access to it within a few moments.

That's a mighty big claim. Want my IP? ;)

Your saying out of the box, connected to highspeed, no hardware or software firewall and never done a windows update? If all those are true it would be very easy but I doubt they are.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14460435 Wed, 28 Sep 2005 12:31:35 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14460344 loopy2003 :

quote:
however I don't let him use IE anymore since they don't update the old IE that much anymore.

:-) Security goes beyond just using IE or not. I'm not saying that there are no reasons to use 98. There are a lot of reasons to do so. Just be aware that if you do, there is very little that can be done to protect you other than simply not using the web at all. You can't build a secure environment over an insecure OS, although many vendors are trying. Because kernel objects (I hope you know what those are since you seem to be all knowing) can't be secured on 9x a compromised application whether IE or Firefox or whatever can take over the entire system.

And no.. common sense WILL NOT protect you in all cases. Common sense revolves around trust.. You trust your bank site therefore you visit it.. you try your popular news site, therefore you visit it. If any of those sites unknowingly violate that trust by say pulling JPEGS from a third party site, and that 3rd party site gets compromised then you are screwed. You will get infected if you dont have IDS or AV just by browsing to a site you have been browsing to for years. The only common sense that can save you is not browsing, not emailing, not using the web essentially and not having any way to insert removable media into the PC :-)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14460344 Wed, 28 Sep 2005 12:15:59 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14460341 guitarzan :

said by Allyn_P

:

No surprise there. The Symantec family has not worked well with Windows 9x since 2004.

Agreed NIS 2003 was the last good software they made IMO.
--
Bass....the glue of rhythm and harmony...the heartbeat of the band.! Shaking the earth with deep,sonorous vibrations.The dark ominous thunder of an approching storm.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14460341 Wed, 28 Sep 2005 12:15:14 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14460319 guitarzan :

said by wriley

:

Well i guess it depends if out of the box it has a nic or modem installed and if it is connected to the internet. Once connected to the net most 98 machines already have file and printer sharing active with no security what so ever. There were just as many problems with 98 in its time as xp has now. Plus there was no built in firewall, and no packet filtering like xp and 2k have built in. here is a page with some of the updates you would need to secure a 98 machine. Not to mention that it is EOL (end of life) so MS is not really patching it any more.

»www.microsoft.com/windows98/down···rate.asp

EOL explanation
»www.microsoft.com/windows/lifecy···ult.mspx

There is only 24 meg of Win 98SE updates.? Cool I grabbed them all. I feel more safer and secure already than any "trusted" DRM OS and XP.
--
Bass....the glue of rhythm and harmony...the heartbeat of the band.! Shaking the earth with deep,sonorous vibrations.The dark ominous thunder of an approching storm.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14460319 Wed, 28 Sep 2005 12:11:24 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14460081 guitarzan :

said by wriley

:

But 98 has little to no security and out of the box I can crash your 98 machine with a single packet or gain access to it within a few moments.

I have Win98SE as my OS and you can call me cheap for not wanting to pay $300 for XP that has a well documented exploit history.I'll take your challenge of what tou can do to 98SE.IM me what you need to get started besides 127.0.0.1 lets see what you can do.I don't mean this in a flameful manner-but step up to the plate and prove it to me. ;)
--
Bass....the glue of rhythm and harmony...the heartbeat of the band.! Shaking the earth with deep,sonorous vibrations.The dark ominous thunder of an approching storm.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14460081 Wed, 28 Sep 2005 11:34:41 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14460014 mboy :

said by wriley

:

WHy is anyone still running pre xp and 2k os's? Is there any reasons besides being cheap?

Nope, that sums it up!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14460014 Wed, 28 Sep 2005 11:21:34 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14459837 groundling : "Any idea if the Zeitgeist is available after this June 2004 data?"

Zeitgeist is still available: »www.google.com/press/zeitgeist.html
butI haven't been able to find more recent operating system statistics from Zeitgeist.
Pity. They used to publish browser stats as well.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14459837 Wed, 28 Sep 2005 10:54:00 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14459686 maartena :

said by dp

said by wriley

:

WHy is anyone still running pre xp and 2k os's? Is there any reasons besides being cheap?

These people can also still run NAV2004 and get away with simply updating their definitions until they upgrade their hardware.

I think its a logical step. MS abandons support for Windows 9x, and that means Symantec can't get support either.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14459686 Wed, 28 Sep 2005 10:30:29 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14459493 B : Hmm, adding the 95, 98, and ME figures together totals a full 20%, which is higher than the Win2000 figure of 18% !

And Macs hold their traditional 3% share.

Any idea if the Zeitgeist is available after this June 2004 data?

-- B
--
In a realm outside causality and function]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14459493 Wed, 28 Sep 2005 10:02:49 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14459447 groundling : Well there certainly are alternatives to Norton for Windows 98 users.

As far as windows 98 being "insecure" goes; how many times have you seen "The worm targets only Windows 2000 and Windows XP machines" ?

And "there are not many 98 machines around "
Google stats are interesting:

Operating Systems Used to Access Google - June 2004

Windows 98-16%
Windows ME- 3%
Windows XP-51%
»www.google.com/press/zeitgeist/z···n04.html

That's a significant number of 98,Me machines.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14459447 Wed, 28 Sep 2005 09:53:06 EDT Re: good bye NAV since 2002 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14459257 whocares : As far as NAV or Symantec goes,I haven't supported them since 2002/2003-renewal when one of their updates screwed up my computer,so not missing anything from Norton,I'll never trust them again & advise anyone that is "'thinking"about useing them DON'T,there are to many better anyvirus's & firewalls out there to use,many freebie,"jazzy"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14459257 Wed, 28 Sep 2005 09:07:55 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14458933 BlitzenZeus : The ignorance pours off you like water...

Some computers you can't upgrade, some computers you don't want to upgrade due to hardware limitations, and these people generally don't need a new computer.

My father still runs 98se on a 400 Celeron, and he doesn't need another computer for what he uses it for.

He still has current version software to use, however I don't let him use IE anymore since they don't update the old IE that much anymore.
--
My hourly rates:
$25 per hour.
$35 per hour if you want to watch.
$45 per hour if you want to help.
$75 per hour if you tried to fix it, and failed.
The biggest error is sitting in front of your keyboard.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14458933 Wed, 28 Sep 2005 07:23:39 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14458912 Nanoprobe : Who cares? NAV has been over-rated under-performing bloatware for a long time and 2006 is no exception.JMHO
And yes, I am a former user.
--
Never look back.Something might be gaining on you.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14458912 Wed, 28 Sep 2005 07:11:48 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14458789 Mowergun : My wife has a top of the line Dell XPS with Windows XP. It's OK, but I just like Windows 98SE. I'm still using NAV2002, and probably will until I can no longer buy update subscriptions. Actually, I could probably run without an antivirus since my ISP as well as all other ISP's in my area have have had virus scanning at the server level for about three years now. It has been about that long since the last time I received an infected email. When I finally give up on NAV2002, I plan to try NOD32. I have read several times that it plays well on Windows98SE and is light on resources. That along with BOClean, Zonealarm, Firefox, and Spywareblaster should provide all the safety and security I need.

Funny, today I saw a catalog from one of those catch-all mail order companys. They had refurbished Compaq computers with PII 400mhz processors, 64meg ram, 6gig hard drive, and Windows95 for $99. This was their September 2005 sale catalog. If you only use a computer for occasional web surfing, writing letters, and playing Solitaire, then what more do you need?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14458789 Wed, 28 Sep 2005 06:03:56 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14458661 Blackbird : Hopefully some folks here can help with current suggestions.

There's a 2004 Wilders thread that addresses antivirus for Win95:
»www.wilderssecurity.com/archive/···068.html
At that time, there were ESet, F-Prot, and Anti-Vir-PE products available.

You could also try Googling something like: "antivirus for Windows 95" XP
to pull up around 700 links that might offer some ideas, though they may not give you too many folks' practical experiences. NOTE: The XP term helps weed out old Googled links dating from the Win95 era.
--
If God wanted us to work with electrons, He'd make them big enough to see...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14458661 Wed, 28 Sep 2005 04:13:23 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14458639 Doctor Olds : AVG and AVAST both run fine on Win95B and Win95C.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14458639 Wed, 28 Sep 2005 03:58:25 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14458617 pokesph : what am i suppose to do to protect my win95 boxes? it can barely run avg (changed when nav stopped supporting) now and soon even avg will stop supporting '95

:(
--
Webmaster Steve
- - - - - - - - - - - -
»ppnhosting.com
»sphenterprizes.com
»pokemonpalace.net]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14458617 Wed, 28 Sep 2005 03:43:30 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14458518 Blackbird :

said by Knnn

:

After 6 months my NAV 2005 is finally playing nice with my WIN98SE box. O how mightily I have struggled but alas no more. ... More to the point, can anyone recommend a good, preferably free, AV that will play nice with WIN98SE? AVG, Avast, or another?

I'm not sure quite what you mean by the "alas" comment - but I trust you do realize that presumably Symantec will be LiveUpdate-supporting NAV2005 for Win98 and other OSs until NAV2005's 3-year product lifetime officially expires in 2008? It appears that it's the 2006 products and later that will be jettisoning Win98 support/compatibility. ;)

Unless, of course, you've simply tired of the unparalleled adventure of debugging Symantec's LiveUpdate "events" and such on your W98 computer... :D
--
If God wanted us to work with electrons, He'd make them big enough to see...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14458518 Wed, 28 Sep 2005 02:47:54 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14458458 Buddel :

said by Allyn_P

:

No surprise there. The Symantec family has not worked well with Windows 9x since 2004.

I'm not surprised, either. I cannot think of a single NAV version that ran smoothly on my Win ME machine. I said farewell to all Symantec products a couple of years ago - I haven't looked back...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14458458 Wed, 28 Sep 2005 02:25:37 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14458456 sivran : Well said Blackbird.

I have a 98SE box sitting out in the living room--unfortunately the last 9x box in the house as my needs seem to be outgrowing 98's capability after all these years--and it does its job admirably.

It's an entertainment center. Movies and music, piped to the stereo and the tv. It also provides internet access to that end of the house. Given the hardware in the box, it couldn't do its job any better with a newer OS, and would probably even suffer.

If a virus somehow did get loose in my lan, I must say the 98 box would be just as well protected as the two Windows 2000 hosts. All rely on commercial AVs and Kerio. I might note now that I never suffered a compromise or infection under 98 and GPFs and BSODs were extremely rare. 98 proved to be quite resilient for me, with a little care.
--
Learn about Real ID and why it's so horrible.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14458456 Wed, 28 Sep 2005 02:24:49 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14458444 tc1uscg :

said by sivran

said by antdude

said by DSL_Steve

:

I guess it was just a matter of time...

»www.symantec.com/nav/nav_9xnt/

True. If one buys 2006 products (e.g., store CD versions) and try to install it, he/she gets 2005 version. So, he/she not completely out of the woods -- just won't get the latest one. ;)

In other words they won't be as well protected. :/

quote:
I you are still running any Windows 98 version and you are visiting this security mailing list, there is something wrong with that picture. You do realize how insecure 98's security model is ? Some might argue one doesn't even exist.

I agree. I have kids who use a couple of old laptops that are running 98se. Running NAV 03 on both. Cheap? How about smart. Why is it cheap to keep a older car if there's nothing wrong with it? While your out making payments and having to build up to handle your software needs just to maintain current performance, I'll be banking my cash. I do have 2 XP machines but I after running NIS/Spyware, I dumped it off and put ZA security suite back on, using it's antivirus engine. No bugs yet so it must be doing something right. And I didn't have trash my machine to get it that way. :o]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14458444 Wed, 28 Sep 2005 02:16:42 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14458395 SnowyOne : AVG with DOS & email scanning not installed during setup is the finest AV today for a W98, IMHO.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14458395 Wed, 28 Sep 2005 01:55:10 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14458347 Knnn : Blackbird SR, I couldn't agree with you more.....

After 6 months my NAV 2005 is finally playing nice with my WIN98SE box .... O how mightily I have struggled ...but alas no more.

:)

More to the point, can anyone recommend a good, preferably free, AV that will play nice with WIN98SE? AVG, Avast, or another?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14458347 Wed, 28 Sep 2005 01:38:46 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14458191 Blackbird :

said by wriley

:

WHy is anyone still running pre xp and 2k os's? Is there any reasons besides being cheap?

Sigh...! :uhh: It seems this argument comes up just about every time somebody mentions they're still using Win98. First off, there are a LOT of reasons besides simple poverty or stubborness or blind stupidity that cause many users to persist in using an older OS. Legacy application compatibility for critical software is one. Operating familiarity and avoidance of costly software learning curves are others. Though it's too often overlooked, there's the whole time/expense fur-ball that almost always results from buying and bringing a new computer "up to speed". That frequently forces the collateral purchase of a whole array of peripheral hardware because some of one's older accessories won't work well with the new box; it almost always forces purchase of an entire complement of updated and costly security software, as well as numerous expensive apps upgrades (since one's old ones all too often won't play with the new OS). All this set-up and futzing around frequently leads to many kinds of fresh interactive quirks, hiccups, and error-messages that never existed with the old, essentially fully-debugged and smoothed-out OS and apps.

And while some folks do indeed get their 'jollies' out of playing Mr.ComputerGuru all day, there are others of us out here who lived through that phase of our lives some years ago and found out that much of it's greatly over-rated as a source of fun and enjoyment. We simply want our computers to be useful tools, and our focus is on actually doing meaningful work with those tools - not on constantly striving to have the latest techno-whiz-bang devices and software. To do meaningful work means to be familiar with and expert at applying necessary tools, and I submit that in some situations, the learning curves and stumble-around fiascos of bringing up new systems full of new software simply detracts from what some folks need to accomplish.

And, yes, the day will come for most of us 'dinosaurs' when perhaps hardware failure or gross obsolesence issues will ultimately force us to vault forward into the current genre of computers and OSs... then we'll pay the necessary price to renew our knowledge and methods. But in the meantime, we're satisfied with the tradeoff choices we have made - just as "modernists" are satisfied with theirs. Do we really have to bash each other's choices, especially when so little may REALLY be understood about what is going into them? :huh:
--
If God wanted us to work with electrons, He'd make them big enough to see...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14458191 Wed, 28 Sep 2005 01:04:23 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14458054 B :

said by tls663

:

Is this to claim that file sharing is the only vulnerability that win98, or XP for that matter have?

No.

-- B
--
In a realm outside causality and function]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14458054 Wed, 28 Sep 2005 00:31:57 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14458016 tls663 :

said by B

said by wriley

:

Yes people talk about out of the box, not sure if you mean with tcp\ip installed? Did you enable file sharing? Have you never done a windows update or installed a service pack? I would say out of the box with a properly configured highspeed internet win 98 is worse then xp.

And again, how can you say that? Do you dispute that Win98 doesn't have file sharing at all unless one specifically adds it, and that that addition is not required or typical when enabling TCP/IP and an Internet connection? (I certainly never installed it except for those times when specific file sharing was required. Even now I only enable it temporarily when I wish to share from my Win9x machine.)

File sharing is certainly NOT required for a "properly configured highspeed Internet", and there's nothing about Windows 98 that encourages you to install file sharing unless you choose to, as far as I can tell. Now, Messenger popup spam is another story...

-- B

Is this to claim that file sharing is the only vulnerability that win98, or XP for that matter have? I don't think so, there are more there to be found, some of which need little or no user intervention to be a problem. You may wish to read up on the knowledge base at MS. I would never run MS Windows product w/o a firewall, av/at, and anti spyware! None of which is "out of the box"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14458016 Wed, 28 Sep 2005 00:25:21 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14457933 B :

said by wriley

:

But 98 has little to no security and out of the box I can crash your 98 machine with a single packet or gain access to it within a few moments.

That's a mighty big claim. Want my IP? ;)
--
What’s the point of owning a supercar if you can’t scare yourself stupid from time to time?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14457808 Tue, 27 Sep 2005 23:50:29 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14457689 pvale : Sorry, but the Dell PIII laptop that I'm typing this on is Running WinME. And I feel that I am quite secure. I keep up with Windows Update regularly for as long as M$ continues to update it. I run AVG, Adaware, Spybot. This machine is sitting on a 5000D/512U cable connection, behind a old PII machine running IPCop. I don't run IE except for Windows Update. I uninstalled Norton a couple of years ago, and never realized how much that bloated hunk of junk slowed this machine down. I have not had a virus, nor much problems with spyware, adware or other junk. I run Firefox, and Opera, with popup blockers.

Now, my wife, 4 feet to my right, has a new Dell machine that came with WinXP. I have gotten a good grounding in XP from fixing it when she breaks the operating system. She got a drive-by downloaded virus the other night that had me running all the standard tools, then breaking out the XP CD to refresh a file.

I follow this forum regularly, and it's high on my list of favorite forums on BBR. I have learned much from the learned folks who post here, and I thank you all profusely. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14457689 Tue, 27 Sep 2005 23:32:58 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14457542 EGeezer : My WIN98SE has'nt been infected or compromised here, but that's a combination of layered security and common sense usage as much as anything.

WIN9x has another benefit - it doesn't have a limitation on the number of users that can map a shared folder to its system as XP does(3 on home, 10 on pro). I use it as a file server in an account where several users need occasional access to common files. Microsoft's answer was to buy W2K3 server and 25 seats. I accomplished everything I needed with a $100 PC running WIN98SE - all legally licensed too!
--
Every
Good
Electrical
Engineer
Zeroes
Each
Register]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14457542 Tue, 27 Sep 2005 23:12:58 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14457521 wriley : Yes people talk about out of the box, not sure if you mean with tcp\ip installed? Did you enable file sharing? Have you never done a windows update or installed a service pack? I would say out of the box with a properly configured highspeed internet win 98 is worse then xp. Windows 98 had many security problems and the Internet browser is not very security minded at all. Now that being said there arent many viruses out there for 98 machines and if they work for what you use them for then I guess they are good. It just seems that people would be missing alot. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14457521 Tue, 27 Sep 2005 23:09:16 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14457392 FoMoCo : People keep saying *out of the box* but anybody who hangs here does not run anything *out of the box*]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14457392 Tue, 27 Sep 2005 22:49:16 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14457283 HA Nut : As far as Norton not supporting older Windows OS's, it's no surprise to me. NAV isn't the first product they're taking this approach with. Ghost being another that comes to mind (although like NAV 2006, you still get an older version of Ghost bundled with Ghost 9.)

As for Win 98 and keeping it safe, I've been running an old 98SE box for several years and never been infected by anything nasty. Granted, as being here suggests, I am more aware of potential issues than the average PC user and I try to practice safe hex. No one can deny that from a permissions/file sharing point of view, 98 stunk/stinks. But as someone pointed out above, Win 98 PCs are, in several ways, now safer to run than XP. Many of the new nasties just won't run on 98... Plus I just like my old 98 laptop. :)

(I do own an XP box. But the 98 box just keeps going and going and going...)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14457283 Tue, 27 Sep 2005 22:34:05 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14456877 Allyn_P : No surprise there. The Symantec family has not worked well with Windows 9x since 2004. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14456877 Tue, 27 Sep 2005 21:39:10 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14456748 B :
It's been a while, but I really think you're wrong on that point. It's NT/2K/XP that have file sharing enabled by default.

One had to go out of one's way to enable file sharing on Win9x. Installing a NIC and connecting to the Internet was NOT enough to turn on file sharing. One had to explicitly choose to add "File and printer sharing for Microsoft (or Novell) Networks" in the Control Panel. And there'd be no reason to for the typical home user, especially in the past.

-- B
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In a realm outside causality and function]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14456748 Tue, 27 Sep 2005 21:19:37 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14456706 wriley : Well i guess it depends if out of the box it has a nic or modem installed and if it is connected to the internet. Once connected to the net most 98 machines already have file and printer sharing active with no security what so ever. There were just as many problems with 98 in its time as xp has now. Plus there was no built in firewall, and no packet filtering like xp and 2k have built in. here is a page with some of the updates you would need to secure a 98 machine. Not to mention that it is EOL (end of life) so MS is not really patching it any more.

»www.microsoft.com/windows98/down···rate.asp

EOL explanation
»www.microsoft.com/windows/lifecy···ult.mspx]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14456706 Tue, 27 Sep 2005 21:11:39 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14456562 B :
How? Out of the box, you can't do a damned thing to a Win98 machine, as far as I understand.

-- B
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In a realm outside causality and function]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14456562 Tue, 27 Sep 2005 20:53:31 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14456511 wriley : no its not, right now the chance of getting attacked is alot lower because there are not many 98 machines around meaning less 98 machines infected and spreading viruses and not many people looking for 98 machines to break. But 98 has little to no security and out of the box I can crash your 98 machine with a single packet or gain access to it within a few moments.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14456511 Tue, 27 Sep 2005 20:46:24 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14456494 B :
What the heck are you guys going on about? Doesn't everyone recognize that Win98, out of the box, is far far more secure (from the Internet) than most versions of Win2K and WinXP?

Sheesh. How soon we forget.

-- B
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In a realm outside causality and function]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14456494 Tue, 27 Sep 2005 20:43:37 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14456168 FoMoCo : I still run a 98se box on my network and as someone said with a bit of common sense and some know how it has stayed clean for years.I also have a second drive with 98se (dualboot) set up on my box which I use for gaming only.
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When life becomes a drag - floor it - Galaxie 500 ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14456168 Tue, 27 Sep 2005 19:56:06 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14455832 wriley :

said by Anonynona

said by dp

said by wriley

:

WHy is anyone still running pre xp and 2k os's? Is there any reasons besides being cheap?

Yet, those same elderly that "can't" afford to purchase even an OEM version (cheap and legal; some people who seem to love that route), but they do have Internet access, cable/satellite service, telephone service with maybe a "few" of the useless features (and they keep paying $60-$80/yr for inside maintenance, while the wires and connectors simply sit and never wear out, no matter how much you use them)...yeah, right... If that's a valid argument, then why don't they really save some money and get rid of the computer and Internet service. I know pens and paper are still used by those who are educated, plus a phone call is cheeeaap nowadays and you can actually use your vocal cords. Most elderly still prefer that way of life and really don't give a hoot about computers, the Internet, or email. :p

Not to mention the ones who say they cant afford high speed so they have aol and a second phone line which adds up to more then double the cost of cable.

Plus they are paying phone support, and computer reapir bills that cost much more then a new system. Iv seen elderly people who have spent thousands on there win98 machine when they can call dell and have an xp machine with flat panel for 399 or less]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14455832 Tue, 27 Sep 2005 19:11:14 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14455621 Anonynona :

said by dp

said by wriley

:

WHy is anyone still running pre xp and 2k os's? Is there any reasons besides being cheap?

said by sivran

not this quote:
I you are still running any Windows 98 version and you are visiting this security mailing list, there is something wrong with that picture. You do realize how insecure 98's security model is ? Some might argue one doesn't even exist.

Not so...unless they still run C/PM, or Commodore64's et al. lol Otherwise, Win98 can't honestly be thought of as a secure system, Win98SE did improve upon that somewhat, but really...that kind of "common sense" goes hand in hand with the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mindset. ;) We would still be in caves if nobody wanted improvements and all the gripes about the newer opsyses still won't make the older, lousier versions any better at all.

And Gramma with her brand new Dell, etc...she's more secure than anybody, cause she doesn't, can't and won't use "that thing" for much of anything, much less the Internet, email, et al...why should she waste the $$ when she can write letters and the phone works just dandy! :p :D]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14455528 Tue, 27 Sep 2005 18:16:46 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14455498 dp :

said by wriley

:

WHy is anyone still running pre xp and 2k os's? Is there any reasons besides being cheap?

For some, especially the elderly on fixed incomes, upgrading is not very easy to pull off. I have a few in my neighborhood that fit that category. They have the PC's primarily to keep in touch with out of state family and they just cannot afford to do it.
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Write your questions down on the back of a $20 dollar bill and send them to me]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14455498 Tue, 27 Sep 2005 18:09:54 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14455334 tls663 :

said by loopy2003

:

I you are still running any Windows 98 version and you are visiting this security mailing list, there is something wrong with that picture. You do realize how insecure 98's security model is ? Some might argue one doesn't even exist.

I belive that this can be said about windows period reguardless of version minus Vista until we see how it stacks up against attacks]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14455334 Tue, 27 Sep 2005 17:45:25 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14454688 wriley : WHy is anyone still running pre xp and 2k os's? Is there any reasons besides being cheap?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14454688 Tue, 27 Sep 2005 16:07:38 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14454572 PetePuma :

said by sivran

:

I say bah. Common sense will keep one safe on 98 as well as any other OS. A 98 user that is reading this forum or any security mailing list is likely to be quite secure, moreso than say, Gramma with her brand new Dell running XP, who doesn't read any security bulletins and doesn't understand windows update.

Common sense doesn't fix bugs. No more updates to 98 are getting posted, so if you are still using 98, I'd say Grandma running XP is better off.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14454572 Tue, 27 Sep 2005 15:50:36 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14454515 sivran :

said by antdude

said by DSL_Steve

:

I guess it was just a matter of time...

»www.symantec.com/nav/nav_9xnt/

True. If one buys 2006 products (e.g., store CD versions) and try to install it, he/she gets 2005 version. So, he/she not completely out of the woods -- just won't get the latest one. ;)

In other words they won't be as well protected. :/

quote:
I you are still running any Windows 98 version and you are visiting this security mailing list, there is something wrong with that picture. You do realize how insecure 98's security model is ? Some might argue one doesn't even exist.

I say bah. Common sense will keep one safe on 98 as well as any other OS. A 98 user that is reading this forum or any security mailing list is likely to be quite secure, moreso than say, Gramma with her brand new Dell running XP, who doesn't read any security bulletins and doesn't understand windows update.

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Learn about Real ID and why it's so horrible.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14454515 Tue, 27 Sep 2005 15:41:43 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14453267 loopy2003 : I you are still running any Windows 98 version and you are visiting this security mailing list, there is something wrong with that picture. You do realize how insecure 98's security model is ? Some might argue one doesn't even exist.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14453267 Tue, 27 Sep 2005 12:36:27 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14449014 antdude :

said by DSL_Steve

:

I guess it was just a matter of time...

»www.symantec.com/nav/nav_9xnt/

True. If one buys 2006 products (e.g., store CD versions) and try to install it, he/she gets 2005 version. So, he/she not completely out of the woods -- just won't get the latest one. ;)
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Ant @ The Ant Farm: »antfarm.ma.cx ... Please do not IM/e-mail me for technical support. Use the forum (I check almost daily)! Disclaimer: The views expressed in this posting are mine, and do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14449014 Mon, 26 Sep 2005 20:24:44 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14447878 Blackbird : You could see this coming, especially in the context of how unfriendly NAV2004 and 5 have been with too many Win98 users. And... that is why I migrated to NOD32 in July when my NAV2002 was killed off by Symantec's planned-obsolescence strategy. My only regret? Not having done it MUCH sooner! I would have been spared a LOT of confusion and grief caused by several of Symantec's peculiar Live Update fiascos during this past year. :uhh:

And another curious benefit of abandoning NAV: a longstanding and nagging computer-clock slowdown of about 5 to 8 seconds a day (and on rare occasions, several minutes a day) that began right after a NAV LiveUpdate back in early January 2004 suddenly disappeared the very hour NAV was uninstalled from this computer in early July... total drift since then has been less than 6 seconds. I had replaced the CMOS battery, checked the clock-circuit components on the MoBo, and generally fretted and experimented with blocking all sorts of other programs as possible culprits - with utterly no success. Then, out of the blue, NAV's removal completely cleared the problem!

From very positive experiences during the "early" years of computers, I came to consider Norton the 'gold standard' of utilities and virus protection. I still think highly of a number of old Norton utilities suitable for this old machine. But say what you will, Symantec is certainly no longer your mother's Peter Norton. ;)
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If God wanted us to work with electrons, He'd make them big enough to see...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14447878 Mon, 26 Sep 2005 18:02:11 EDT Re: NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14447208 Tyreman : Well it was bound to hsppen.
One positive note if you run with those OSs' you needn't worry about uninstalling Norton or it going for a poop anymore:D]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14447208 Mon, 26 Sep 2005 16:34:02 EDT NAV 2006 no longer supports WinMe & 98 users http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14446931 DSL_Steve : I guess it was just a matter of time...

»www.symantec.com/nav/nav_9xnt/]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14446931 Mon, 26 Sep 2005 15:58:46 EDT