Re: Ok.. in http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r15215871 en Tue, 08 Dec 2009 20:07:13 EDT Tue, 08 Dec 2009 20:07:13 EDT Re: The true economics of increased usage http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15222067 calvoiper : It's possible to use a "carrot" approach and get the lighter users onto a "per unit" pricing plan, but to see full economic implementation it usually takes a "stick" of some sort to force the heavy users over, either by capping (essentially eliminating) "unlimited use" plans, or by raising (or, if prices are falling, failing to drop) prices for unlimited use.

calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15222067 Wed, 11 Jan 2006 14:28:05 EDT Re: Ok.. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15220998 nixen :
said by Jason Levine See Profile :

Why say "f*ck you" in Yiddish when you can use one of the more colorful curses?
Because the answer to the joke's question is "trust me". Which is appropos of telcos proposing things that are "in the best interest of consumers".

-tom
--
"Some people have morals, standards and ideals about quality, but I'm an American: I couldn't care less." --Tony Pierce (paraphrased)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15220998 Wed, 11 Jan 2006 12:02:33 EDT Re: Here is the reality and not the fantasy http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15220382 fiberguy : ASI has existed since 1997 or abouts. It's been around as long as DSL for Pacific Bell has been. (pre SBC) There was never a "spin off" - it's always been. Being the first customer in Sacramento to have DSL installed (news cameras and papers present for install) I learned this long ago.

Yes, it's because of the regulatory demand.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15220382 Wed, 11 Jan 2006 10:22:30 EDT Re: Here is the reality and not the fantasy http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15220364 fiberguy : GnS, I have to disagree with you on this one, for once.

The likes of AT&T and such are providing INTERNET ACCESS.

If they want to be the deliverer of content as well, they need to sell themselves as in the days of AOL 4.5. Online service first with access to the "internet" second. Many people are not going to go for this since what they have purcahsed is HIGH SPEED INTERNET.

AT&T, and the likes, are a day late and a dollar short of getting into the game. Show me one major ISP that, until recently, had anything to offer on their own until recently. The major ISPs have always had the worst portals in the industry.

Now, they are poppin up and wanting to increase and enhance their own offersings and want to be the ones to turn to for the content because they are just now waking up to the fact that there is not only money in the transport, but content as well.

I don't buy Comcast or Qwest for their information. I have purchased their pipes to get me onto the NET.

If they want to make sure their "CORE" services of Video, and Telephone are able to make it to the home, they can certainly do that by splitting their services down different channels, pipes, or frequencies. Cable is already doing this and so is telephone as DSL and Voice run on different frequencies.

The bottom line is that they are looking simply for more places to make income. What ultimately is happening here is the same thing that is happening in the housing markets. The hosing market was was so sucked dry of cash that many houses are now out of the price range of many people - and rentals are also going up. Come late 06 or easly 07 we are heading back into another TRUE recession.

The internet is going to head the same way. They are going to drive the prices up everywhere they can that internet is going to become a loss in providing it that they will not be able to enhance it or less people will buy it period. They are too busy sucking cash from every source in their quest for world domination that they will eventually drive the internet into the ground.

The only way that the internet can and will exist and survive is for them to simply leave it alone. It's not broke and it doesn't need fixing. Yes, the government will step in, but I think it will be to knock this B.S. off.

I have problems with companies that look within' their currnet products and services to make more money from it first instead of looking outside by creating new new product offerings. To me, this tells me that they having nothing new on the horizon or they don't plan on upgrading anything they have.

AT&T (SBC) is VERY good and making empty promises and never delivering. I thought vapor-ware was a short sting when Bill Gates pre-microsoft days with DOS.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15220364 Wed, 11 Jan 2006 10:20:03 EDT Re: Ok.. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15220248 fiberguy :
said by G_Poobah See Profile :

Comcrap/Verizon/Etc are trying to double dip, since they currently only get to charge for the 'transport', and want to now get a chunk of the 'production'.
Do you even bother to do your homework before you rant? ... ever?

When did Comcast get drug into a conversation about AT&T and their double dipping?

Eminent domain? if you want a socialist society, there are pleanty of them out there - please, choose one.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15220248 Wed, 11 Jan 2006 10:01:55 EDT Re: Ok.. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15219916 Jason Levine : Why say "f*ck you" in Yiddish when you can use one of the more colorful curses?

»www.yiddishradioproject.org/exhi···hp3?pg=1

Number 29 seems appropriate for the Telecos should they implement their plan:

A groys gesheft zol er hobn mit shroyre: vus er hot, zol men bay im nit fregn, un vos men fregt zol er nisht hobn.
He should have a large store, and whatever people ask for he shouldn’t have, and what he does have shouldn’t be requested.
;););)
--
-Jason Levine
My Gallery | Jason's Toolbox | PCQandA.com | URateit.com]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15219916 Wed, 11 Jan 2006 08:56:06 EDT Re: Ok.. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15219868 Jason Levine :
said by Jafo232 See Profile :

Whenever a company like this says "beneficial to customers", you have to be worried. That is usually a code for "We are about to screw the customer when he/she is not looking"..
This time it's different. They're already screwing their customers and now they're looking to screw every company/web site/service on the Internet even if said company/web site/service isn't their customer.

Hey, wait. Maybe that's the "beneficial to customers" part. Maybe it really means "if we're too busy screwing all of the companies/web sites/services on the Internet, we'll have less time to screw you, our customers." ;-)
--
-Jason Levine
My Gallery | Jason's Toolbox | PCQandA.com | URateit.com]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15219868 Wed, 11 Jan 2006 08:45:11 EDT Re: The true economics of increased usage http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15218618 TKJunkMail : Excellent analysis. I wonder if they can get customers to buy in to the per byte model?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15218618 Wed, 11 Jan 2006 00:25:44 EDT The true economics of increased usage http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15218556 calvoiper : Before we go further, we have to distinguish between additional loads caused by A) additional subscribers and B) higher, more intense usage of bandwidth by the average subscriber.

"A"--additional subscribers--shouldn't be any economic problem for the ISPs, unless they are improperly pricing their existing services under cost now (which some have claimed the Baby Bells are doing with DSL). With more customers, they at least gain some economies of scale.

"B"--increased individual usage--is the issue. All "shared" or "concentrated" facilities will need to be expanded, resulting in increased cost on a "per customer" basis, as average usage increases through heavier bandwidth occupancy caused by streaming video, more extensive downloads, etc.

Now, to deal with the fallout:

said by TKJunkMail See Profile :

... If government steps in and tries to forbid the so-called 2 tier system, then 1 of 2 things would happen:
1) the ISPs will not spend their money to upgrade infrastructure to handle the new products(video, etc.) at all. So everyone suffers. OR
2) the ISPs will upgrade the infrastructure to support all comers and the PRICE to their customers goes up accordingly.
...
Ooops. You left out (or improperly crammed into option 2) the third option, which is that ISPs will raise prices only to the heavier users, i.e., those that are streaming video and downloading all the time. (Those of us who only read and write text don't add much load to the shared facilities at all.) I.e., option 3 is that we'll see some sort of "per-byte" pricing.

said by TKJunkMail See Profile :

...
The option everyone wants can NOT happen. And that is an enhanced infrastructure paid for only by the ISPs with no increase in costs to the customer. Investors of the ISPs will not support that option.
Again, with a "per-byte" pricing structure, the infrastructure improvements necessary will be paid for by those heavy users that make them necessary.

Now, it appears that the Baby Bells, so long dependent on "access" pricing they charged to long distance carriers, and now trying to extract that money stream from the content providers, rather than legitimately raising it from their own customers. This approach is indirect and inaccurate--and only really works for monopolies.

(Previously litigated example: Microsoft charges manufacturers, rather than end users, for Internet Explorer. This is not only easier for Microsoft, it avoids the necessity of having to compete at the end user level for browser customers. Likewise, if the Baby Bells can extort "transit" fees from the content providers, they can avoid charging proper end user prices and thereby avoid competing at the end user level for customers. They will have effectively used their size to force Google (and hence, all of Google's end users) to subsidize the Baby Bell DSL, just as Microsoft forced manufacturers and their customers to subsidize IE. As Netscape found out, smaller players without the "heft" to engage in industry-wide extortion then get squeezed out of the picture, and the user community loses both the price and product differentiation benefits of having competing products.)

Competition depends on the cost-causer (in this case, the intense user who is downloading and streaming a lot) bearing their own costs. To the extent these costs are hidden elsewhere, true competition is stifled.

It's as if you opened the electric network to competition for generation capacity, but told the competitors that they couldn't meter the electricity. There's then effectively no way for real competition to develop.

The real danger is that the user community will embrace the "hidden" cost model (i.e., the 2-tier system for content providers) to avoid "per byte" pricing--and we'll be stuck with monopoly pricing models for years, much to the delight of the Baby Bells.

calvoiper
--
VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15218556 Wed, 11 Jan 2006 00:17:21 EDT Re: Ok.. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15218541 Jigsaw :
said by valuepac0 See Profile :

Where my fiber to the curb...
Its on the curb:p
--
»www.auralmoon.com/html/ Open your mind and your ears.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15218541 Wed, 11 Jan 2006 00:15:39 EDT Re: Ok.. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15216758 99664227 :
said by valuepac0 See Profile :

Where my fiber to the curb...
Verizon dug up my yard today with that foot thick orange cable.:D
--
Life ain't nothing but bitches and cake!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15216758 Tue, 10 Jan 2006 20:23:28 EDT Re: Ok.. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15216230 en102 : Seizing commiecast of VZ (including VZW) would be a nice start.
These companies want to take control of your connection to throttle any thing that doesn't pay them toll, or isn't a 'Content partner - i.e. Yahoo/SBC(at&t)'
The flaw with that is we (the customers) pay for access to the Internet - with no restrictions to a specific vendor (i.e. Google) vs. their content partner.

While I do agree that there are limits - i.e. SBC/Yahoo back bone set up to handle OC-48 traffic, and say an online gaming service (or video streaming service) has an OC-192 backbone, it could be conceived as 'throttling', Company A asking Company B to assist in paying for extra capacity. I can see that as a reasonable request. What I don't see as being reasonable is packet shaping technology to filter specific ports/applications down to less than the users pipe size.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15216230 Tue, 10 Jan 2006 19:12:04 EDT Re: Here is the reality and not the fantasy http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15216037 stickfigure :
said by TKJunkMail See Profile :

The option everyone wants can NOT happen. And that is an enhanced infrastructure paid for only by the ISPs with no increase in costs to the customer. Investors of the ISPs will not support that option.
So how is it that an ISP such as AT&T (SBC at the time) offer 1.5-6mbps DSL for $299.00 per month a couple years ago and after having invested in enhanced infrastructure (fiber and more RT's) now offer the same service for around $69.99 per month? Because that sounds to me like they were the only one investing in their infrastructure and they weren't raising the costs of DSL to cover it. In fact the residential DSL costs have typically been reduced as more has been invested into the network.

What SHOULD happen and what has been happening until this crap... is ISP's continue to come out with faster and faster services. If I'm a customer who wants to have "THE" fastest service I know I'm going to have to pay more for it while it is considered "the best". But this would be the same thing if I wanted the latest and greatest technology (ie blue ray DVD writer's). At first it's going to be expensive but as time progresses costs decrease. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15216037 Tue, 10 Jan 2006 18:43:39 EDT Re: Here is the reality and not the fantasy http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15215931 AndyWarhol : exactly, you must at some point try to beat the competition by upgrading. Then again they might just try to lower their prices and become an in-between dial-up and fast broadband.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15215931 Tue, 10 Jan 2006 18:28:00 EDT Re: Ok.. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15215871 AndyWarhol : Not entirely true, if you are under contract with an ISP or a webhosting company, you are allowed a certain amount of information per month and are charged for every bit you exceed your limit, even residential customers are subject to this limit (we all know that bandwidth caps exist in our residential contracts, but they are rarely enforced so we tend to forget about them), but ISPs don't care about residential customers because the margin they earn on them is nowhere near what they earn from business customers. If you can get 100,000 residential customers for $10 a month or 10 customers for $100,000 a month, which would you choose?

Edit: this also proved that they are not attempting to double dip, they are attempting to triple dip. Most domain names are already paying for a certain amount of traffic to their site, and all customers are already paying for their access to that site, so now charging the owners of those domain names not only for the traffic to their site but also for the traffic that passes through any certain network is triple, quadruple, quintuple dipping from the same pot.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15215871 Tue, 10 Jan 2006 18:16:19 EDT Re: Here is the reality and not the fantasy http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15215723 aztecnology :
said by Fatal Vector See Profile :

Oh, and by the way, it seems that SBC DSL is provided by a outfit called ASI (Advanced Solutions Inc), which, from what I was told, is a subsidiary of SBC, but, because of FCC regulations, operates independently. Go figure.
SBC was required to spin its DSL operations into a separate company, ASI, back around 2001. This past year ASI moved back to SBC/ATT, though the group is still called ASI...
--
.:|:. "Independent thinkers tend to ALWAYS have someone not agreeing with them. It's The non-thinkers that always come in legions." John Callari .:|:.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15215723 Tue, 10 Jan 2006 17:55:47 EDT Re: Here is the reality and not the fantasy http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15215720 broadbander :
For one, if the telcos do not invest in network upgrades they will be beaten stupid by wireless, cable, and muni-alternatives, so investment must happen regardless.
Aw! But that's when the telcos AREN'T against regulation! When it impedes those who might stand up against their refusal to deploy, then regulation is doing its job. All other times, oh no no.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15215720 Tue, 10 Jan 2006 17:55:30 EDT Re: Here is the reality and not the fantasy http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15215498 Fatal Vector :
Interestingly enough, I had a problem with my SBC/AT&T DSL which turned out to be the modem. However, during the conversation, while the tech was testing the line (next day in home service, by the way), he made a comment about my DSL line being 294 feet long and that my current service was only using 12% of the capability of the line.

How could this be? I'm definately not that close to the switch. Apparently, it's because I am that distance from a node of some kind. This seems to tie in with my having seen SBC putting in large fiber cables under the main avenue a few months back, as well as in other places over time.

In all the blathering about SBC/AT&T, has it ever occurred to anyone that SBC HAS been upgrading their infrastructure, quietly, over time?

Oh, and by the way, it seems that SBC DSL is provided by a outfit called ASI (Advanced Solutions Inc), which, from what I was told, is a subsidiary of SBC, but, because of FCC regulations, operates independently. Go figure.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15215498 Tue, 10 Jan 2006 17:28:37 EDT Re: Ok.. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15215491 CableConvert : Unfortunately...we are looking, and we will still get screwed]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15215491 Tue, 10 Jan 2006 17:26:58 EDT Re: Ok.. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15215487 RayW :
said by footballdude See Profile :

Bad example. You pay for how much electricity you use by the watt. You pay a flat fee for internet access, regardless of how much you use it.
Not totally true, I have paid a 'service fee' + the KW usage for my electric for a long time. With my AT&T LD I pay a set rate, and if I call over a certain number of minutes, then I pay extra. My ISP is a flat rate up to 100 gigabytes/month, any more and I get dinged (not that I come close to using that much).
--
I am not lost, I find myself every time.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15215487 Tue, 10 Jan 2006 17:26:41 EDT Re: Ok.. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15215460 G_Poobah : Your argument is flawed.

Electricity costs money to produce. A bit of data costs nothing to produce, it only costs money to transport. It's known as a temporal asset. It costs the same to run at 1mb/sec as it does for 100mb/sec, given that all other things are equal. The objective of the transporter (comcast/verizon/etc) is to run as close to 100% capacity as possible (aka use every airline seats), since there is no UNIT cost (electricity production) to maximize profits.

If you check your electric bill, you pay for the transport (internet access) and the usage (production).

Comcrap/Verizon/Etc are trying to double dip, since they currently only get to charge for the 'transport', and want to now get a chunk of the 'production'. Greed, pure and simple, and it WOULD NEVER WORK unless it was a monopoly. I, for one, look forward to the day when my locally elected official seizes the assets of comcast and verizon under eminent domain.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15215460 Tue, 10 Jan 2006 17:23:31 EDT Re: Ok.. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15215447 nixen :
said by Jafo232 See Profile :

Whenever a company like this says "beneficial to customers", you have to be worried. That is usually a code for "We are about to screw the customer when he/she is not looking"..
Reminds me of the old joke, "What's Yiddish for 'f*ck you'?"

-tom
--
"Some people have morals, standards and ideals about quality, but I'm an American: I couldn't care less." --Tony Pierce (paraphrased)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15215447 Tue, 10 Jan 2006 17:20:47 EDT Re: Ok.. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15215428 ronpin : ...don't give AT&T any "ideas"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15215428 Tue, 10 Jan 2006 17:18:37 EDT Re: Ok.. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15215386 Fatal Vector :
You pay for electric service based on how many KILOWATT HOURS (a draw of 1,000watts for one hour, or equibvalent)you use per month. usually in the range of 9-14 cents per KWH.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15215386 Tue, 10 Jan 2006 17:13:19 EDT Re: Here is the reality and not the fantasy http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15215382 TKJunkMail :
said by broadbander See Profile :

And can you explain the engineering behind such "optimized" information delivery. Whatever would that mean?
Best explained by an example. Comcast built it's own nationwide fiber backbone to interconnect all its locations to keep traffic off of the regular internet. The 1st product using that exclusively is their Comcast Digital Voice(voip) product. They also plan on using that backbone to get into video delivery(IPTV) as well. I suspect that other content providers desiring the Quality of Service that backbone provides will need to fork money over to Comcast for that privilege.
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You've created a complete false reality argument, where your reader must accept that if this system is opposed by a functional regulatory authority, there will be no deployment. It's the same red herring carrot/stick that's been foisted on Internet debate by think tank drones for a quarter century. It's false.

For one, if the telcos do not invest in network upgrades they will be beaten stupid by wireless, cable, and muni-alternatives, so investment must happen regardless.

Second, prices will not automatically go up if this system is opposed, that's another red herring. If anything, competition between services will force telcos to lower prices for said services....]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15215347 Tue, 10 Jan 2006 17:08:10 EDT Re: Here is the reality and not the fantasy http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15215344 ronpin :
said by TKJunkMail See Profile :

...Even if they have to spend extra money on infrastructure to make that possible.
...No

AT&T must upgrade their infrastructure anyway -- just to survive against the cable companies. Nobody will be using DSL for any purpose at-all unless it's upgraded to compete with DOCSIS3.

I'll definitely switch to a cable provider if AT&T does something this stupid (they've already waited too long for FTTP)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15215344 Tue, 10 Jan 2006 17:07:53 EDT Re: Ok.. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15215333 footballdude :
said by ronpin See Profile :

Great...by this logic AT&T should share some of their extra profits thus obtained with the local electric companies -- without whom they could not function as well (or maybe a 2 tier electricity grid...)
Bad example. You pay for how much electricity you use by the watt. You pay a flat fee for internet access, regardless of how much you use it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15215333 Tue, 10 Jan 2006 17:07:00 EDT Re: Here is the reality and not the fantasy http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15215319 broadbander :
AT&T besides being a distributor of content is ALSO going to be a provider of content.

And when they are the provider, they are going to make sure that content is delivered with the BEST quality of service possible. Even if they have to spend extra money on infrastructure to make that possible.

And other providers will get the standard old best effort internet non-optimized delivery vehicle. UNLESS ... they also pay extra to get on the optimized path too.
Maybe you should tell the AT&T CEO about your plan, because he didn't specify any "non-optimized" outlet for google. He said "since people use our bandwidth for you instead of us because you have a superior service, we'd like to charge you money rather than beat your service."

And can you explain the engineering behind such "optimized" information delivery. Whatever would that mean?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15215319 Tue, 10 Jan 2006 17:05:04 EDT Here is the reality and not the fantasy http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15215190 TKJunkMail : It is really a simple idea:

AT&T besides being a distributor of content is ALSO going to be a provider of content.

And when they are the provider, they are going to make sure that content is delivered with the BEST quality of service possible. Even if they have to spend extra money on infrastructure to make that possible.

And other providers will get the standard old best effort internet non-optimized delivery vehicle. UNLESS ... they also pay extra to get on the optimized path too.

It is a purely economic decision to spend their investment dollars to enhance their own ROI. If government steps in and tries to forbid the so-called 2 tier system, then 1 of 2 things would happen:
1) the ISPs will not spend their money to upgrade infrastructure to handle the new products(video, etc.) at all. So everyone suffers. OR
2) the ISPs will upgrade the infrastructure to support all comers and the PRICE to their customers goes up accordingly.

The option everyone wants can NOT happen. And that is an enhanced infrastructure paid for only by the ISPs with no increase in costs to the customer. Investors of the ISPs will not support that option.
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AT&T is damm lucky that Google is out-there -- inducing us to rent DSL lines -- at no cost to AT&T! This plan is blantantly anti-competitive unless they also charge their YAHOO partners as well.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15215028 Tue, 10 Jan 2006 16:28:34 EDT Re: Ok.. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15215002 valuepac0 : Where my fiber to the curb...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15215002 Tue, 10 Jan 2006 16:25:11 EDT Ok.. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15214975 Jafo232 : Whenever a company like this says "beneficial to customers", you have to be worried. That is usually a code for "We are about to screw the customer when he/she is not looking"..
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