said by MrBradTX :

If baccalaureate grads are indistinguishable from HS grads, then either the colleges aren't doing their jobs, or those doing the observing have a too-narrow focus.

WASHINGTON (AP) - Nearing a diploma, most college students cannot handle many complex but common tasks, from understanding credit card offers to comparing the cost per ounce of food.

Those are the sobering findings of a study of literacy on college campuses, the first to target the skills of students as they approach the start of their careers.

More than 50 percent of students at four-year schools and more than 75 percent at two-year colleges lacked the skills to perform complex literacy tasks.

That means they could not interpret a table about exercise and blood pressure, understand the arguments of newspaper editorials, compare credit card offers with different interest rates and annual fees or summarize results of a survey about parental involvement in school.

Almost 20 percent of students pursuing four-year degrees had only basic quantitative skills. For example, the students could not estimate if their car had enough gas to get to the service station. About 30 percent of two-year students had only basic math skills.
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You work hard to put food on your family...shouldn't the pResident speak the words you want to hear? »www.wimp.com/presidential ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15291300 Fri, 20 Jan 2006 18:11:59 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15290997 skyroket : So, where can I go to figure out how big of a raise I need to ask for this year? I'm making less than any of the figures in the one EarthWeb article antdude posted, but I DO live in a rural area, where the cost of living is about 70 - 75% of an urban area like Denver, so I don't expect to make as much.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15290997 Fri, 20 Jan 2006 17:35:21 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15290458 jp10558 : Except for that it says :

quote:

---

Overall, the average literacy of college students is significantly higher than that of adults across the nation.

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and

quote:

---

Also, compared with all adults with similar levels of education, college students had superior skills in searching and using information from texts and documents.

---

Of course, this just makes the entire thing really sad for the US.
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Opera 8.51(Build 7712); Windows XP Pro SP2;Athlon 64 3400+; 1GB PC3200 DDR; 1M/128k DSL; NOD32(Version 2.5.25); Outpost Pro 3;Proxomitron 4.5j Grypen 1/7/06(Opera mod),GPG ID:0x0A1C6EE3]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15290458 Fri, 20 Jan 2006 16:34:20 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15287810 Ray : I couldn't resist: Supporting evidence for my inflammatory statement!

Study: Most College Students Lack Skills
»news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060120/ap_···JVRPUCUl]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15287810 Fri, 20 Jan 2006 10:42:31 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15279258 av8r : Maybe I'm reading this a little differently than others.

A point that seems to be overlooked here is at the end of the article.

said by SecurityPipeline :

---

Perhaps the most unexpected finding, Paller says, is that survey respondents rated communication skills as more important than technical knowledge when it comes to career advancement.

---

College does (or at least should) teach one structure, organization, and process. Even use of APA style forces this on a student. Even though APA probably will not be used in the 'real world', there are requirements in that world that need to be met.

After many years of real world experience (currently at a director level) without a degree, I have returned to college to complete what was started many years ago (think PDP/8e). I am majoring in business (the university offers a degree in MIS with a security focus). Talking with classmates that are less than 1/2 my age, many seem to not know what they want to be when they grow up - others have a clear focus. Given a choice of who to hire, I would attempt to find someone with that focus - most of them are taking that route with experience either in a part time job or as a dedicated hobbiest.
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If I am not for myself, Who will be for me? If I am only for myself, What am I? If not now, When? -- Hillel]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15279258 Thu, 19 Jan 2006 09:04:19 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15278843 Kilroy :

said by astirusty :

And people wonder why we have information security problems.

So a degree means that you're better informed? I send out an e-mail regarding the Sony DRM as a possible issue and an e-mail came back from three manager levels above me that "it sounds like an urban legend". This was not the first day, but at least a week later.

No, I don't have a degree. No, I have no college class time. What I do have is a desire to learn about things in the computer industry. I also have U.S. Military electronic training, a correspondence course in computer repair, self study, and a bunch (of which I consider to be almost worthless) certifications.

I think what it all boils down to is desire. I've worked with people who do this job for the pay check, not because they love their work. They go home and don't touch a computer. I come home and that's the first thing I turn on.

The main thing that college shows an employer is that you are capable of learning. But, college is theory and work is the practical. Just like a Microsoft certification, all questions should start out "In a perfect Microsoft world," because very few times will you find a Microsoft only configuration. In the real world you better know how to figure it out and make it work with the other guys.
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"Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something." -- Robert Heinlein, Time Enough For Love]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15278843 Thu, 19 Jan 2006 07:05:33 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15278731 antdude : A more detailed article from EarthWeb: »itmanagement.earthweb.com/career···/3576781]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15278731 Thu, 19 Jan 2006 05:58:11 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15278317 KyeU : I'm planning to go into IT this year when I graduate from High School...I'm planning to get my Bachelor of Commerce in 2011. Hopefully the pay will change by then? ;)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15278317 Thu, 19 Jan 2006 02:23:11 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15275193 jp10558 :

said by astirusty :

said by TearAbite :

I used to work with a guy with a Masters degree "business" (or some such thing).. but he was borderline RETARDED! (no exaggeration).

In fairness the guy may not have actually been borderline retarded, he just appeared that way to you because of his "higher" education. I have found that hands-on technical types (without degrees) have a very hard time relating to those hands-off theoretical academic types (with degrees).

As others have pointed out the relating problems stem from universities filling students heads with lots of academic ideas that have little relationship to the real world (the world outside the hollowed halls). Of course you can not expect much else when the professors themselves rarely have held a non-academic job. An inbreeding problem - students learning theory from theorists who learned from theorists, and so-forth. A good example of wasted learning is the use of the APA style format for papers, just about an absolutely requirement in universities, but I never saw our company (and two associated companies) even remotely promote the APA style in 20 years.

The other relating problems stem from people with degrees who come into a work area and decided that just because they have a degree and those around them do not; that they are smarter and therefore should call the shots.

This probably doesn't hold exactly in the IT field, as many in the field are good at teaching themselves. It seems to be a stereotype almost. But I have noticed to some extent that there is something that people with a college degree (though, again, not everyone - this is why the presence or lack of a piece of paper isn't a good way to judge someone) are better at finding information.

To elaborate, there is a knack to figuring out where to start. Sure, anyone can type into google, but there is a lot of time in college spent understanding how to "rate" a source - reliable or not. Also, there's a lot of time spent understanding the difference between a primary and secondary source.

If there's one major thing I've learned in academia, it's how to do research. And though many scoff at that, it really does carry over into many things.

I know a lot of smart people without college degrees, and they all have problems with "finding answers" if you will.

Of course, anectadotes are worthless, and as I said, I've met many techies who just are good with the net, so that's not so much an issue really.

So, where am I going with all this? Much of college IME was 2 things - soft skills, and giving you access to hardware you wouldn't be able to experiment with (or get access to) in most companies.
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Opera 8.51(Build 7712); Windows XP Pro SP2;Athlon 64 3400+; 1GB PC3200 DDR; 1M/128k DSL; NOD32(Version 2.5.25); Outpost Pro 3;Proxomitron 4.5j Grypen 1/7/06(Opera mod),GPG ID:0x0A1C6EE3]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15275193 Wed, 18 Jan 2006 18:30:15 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15274086 TearAbite :

said by astirusty :

said by TearAbite :

I used to work with a guy with a Masters degree "business" (or some such thing).. but he was borderline RETARDED! (no exaggeration).

In fairness the guy may not have actually been borderline retarded, he just appeared that way to you because of his "higher" education. I have found that hands-on technical types (without degrees) have a very hard time relating to those hands-off theoretical academic types (with degrees).

I work with several very highly educated engineers (building airplane parts) and i know what you mean about those 'higher educated' guys.. but THIS particular guy was retarted.. seriously.. i'm not the only one that had this view.. he was nice, and was able to communicate well, but give him a problem to solve, or try to explain something to him and it was very clear..he was the winner of the "dee Dee DEE!" award.
The lady that was his manager just told me that he also had dislexia..
BUT
he DID have that pretty piece of paper on his wall!

phhffttt

.
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Click HERE to see my FAKEz]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15274086 Wed, 18 Jan 2006 16:17:27 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15273996 skyroket :

said by trey_w :

I agree that a degree cant substitute work experience but in my opinion it was never supposed too. They should compliment each other.

They should complement each other? Oh wait this is about IT, not grammar!! :p

I made it halfway to a bachelor's degree before I realized secondary education was not for me. I had absolutely no moral dilemmas "quitting school" because in the Information Technology field, I've found experience is the #1 quality most employers look for, followed by certifications and other paper know-how, a college degree being the last.

It's kind of refreshing, actually, because when you're "an old janitor" guy, you can still have a decent IT job instead of getting bumped off the road by all the fresh techies.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15273996 Wed, 18 Jan 2006 16:07:29 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15273148 astirusty :

said by TearAbite :

I used to work with a guy with a Masters degree "business" (or some such thing).. but he was borderline RETARDED! (no exaggeration).

In fairness the guy may not have actually been borderline retarded, he just appeared that way to you because of his "higher" education. I have found that hands-on technical types (without degrees) have a very hard time relating to those hands-off theoretical academic types (with degrees).

As others have pointed out the relating problems stem from universities filling students heads with lots of academic ideas that have little relationship to the real world (the world outside the hollowed halls). Of course you can not expect much else when the professors themselves rarely have held a non-academic job. An inbreeding problem - students learning theory from theorists who learned from theorists, and so-forth. A good example of wasted learning is the use of the APA style format for papers, just about an absolutely requirement in universities, but I never saw our company (and two associated companies) even remotely promote the APA style in 20 years.

The other relating problems stem from people with degrees who come into a work area and decided that just because they have a degree and those around them do not; that they are smarter and therefore should call the shots.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15273148 Wed, 18 Jan 2006 14:28:45 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15272144 EGeezer : I agree, there is a plentiful supply of doofuses with degrees. The supply is equally plentiful among those without degrees.

From my experience (new hire, tech worker, team leader, manager, freelancer and retiree), I found that when the job required a "hit the ground running" technical candidate, technical school or documented experience and certification were better than an academic university degree.

The difficulty with traditional academic degree paths has been the lack of practical experience at basic levels, although universities are beginning to provide more applied coursework in their curriculum. I had guys who could stream architecture and concepts to me, but didn't know how to connect a console to do a controller configuration. The lack of practical security-related coursework is likely the big hindrance to those with batchelor's degrees and no experience.

However, that's not a reason to slam traditional university studies. If the job is a "career path" job where the new hire is expected to progress into a leadership, management, marketing or executive position, the university level skills are more desirable. Having good writing and communications skills along with other applicable knowledge delivered in business, science, public administration etc works better in this area and a new hire can be given OJT or formal training on the basics and be expected to learn quickly.

As a new hire employee, my salary wasn't any better than the people who didn't have a degree. However, once I had exhausted the hard technical career path, the business, math and engineering in my under/grad degree studies were factors in my being chosen to leader/business/marketing/consulting jobs that paid better.

As a manager in my interviews for technical new hires and promotions, I looked as hard for evidence of personal and communications skills and ability to learn as I did on the person's technical expertise or academic background. If two were equal, I chose the one with the higher academic credentials.
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Insert catchy sig line here]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15272144 Wed, 18 Jan 2006 12:29:09 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15271832 ColdinCbus :

said by Psicop :

Question:

What is University good for?

:huh:

Football. :p
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Team Discovery Project Hope]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15271832 Wed, 18 Jan 2006 11:50:29 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15271801 luminaire : There aren't may tried and tested Security diplomas/degree's available right now. I've seen several, and although they claim to be comprehensive just from reading their outlines it is plain to see they are lacking in many areas. Experience, study and practice will make you must more valuable in the security field. That being said, at least for the telecommunications industry, there are some good diploma programs that are comprehensive, detailed, and incredibly worth while.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15271801 Wed, 18 Jan 2006 11:46:36 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15271198 Psicop : You tell me that.

I have two College degrees and I agree with you:

1. University is a business
2. University does not make better thinkers
3. University puts you in debt

Question:

What is University good for?

:huh:]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15271198 Wed, 18 Jan 2006 10:22:05 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15271041 trey_w : I can tell you that most employers will hire or promote someone with a degree over a non-degree if they are equal in work experience. The degree can give you an edge over someone. I agree that a degree cant substitute work experience but in my opinion it was never supposed too. They should compliment each other.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15271041 Wed, 18 Jan 2006 09:53:30 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15270764 Zaber :

said by pbagrat :

Education is not a replacement for experience, although in today's business world thats what it has become. I do not necessarily agree with it, but if I want to remain competitive I must play the game. I went back to college in January of 2005 to pursue my AAS in CIS through Kaplan. I will graduate this August and continue working towards my BS in CIS at my local university. Why did I do this? The job I've been working at for 6 years is laying people off and I am no longer qualified to work there (no undergraduate degree) despite the fact that I am among the top 10 percent in performance. Want to get a decent job and keep it? You need the degree.

Unfortunately this type of situation has become very common. A degree is not and will never be a replacement for experience and common sense. I have seen someone with a HS diploma completely surpass a BS with ease. As pbagrat has stated we must all play the game.
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Give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach a man to fish and he will feed himself for a lifetime]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15270764 Wed, 18 Jan 2006 09:02:34 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15267596 CatSnak :

said by MrBradTX :

If baccalaureate grads are indistinguishable from HS grads, then either the colleges aren't doing their jobs, or those doing the observing have a too-narrow focus.

Colleges aren't supposed to merely install fresh knowledge into immature post-adolescent skulls. Colleges are also supposed to transform immature post-adolescents into mature, responsible young adults and equip them to continue to grow, mature and learn the rest of their lives.

Then a lot of the colleges are failing because I see lots of grads comming out of them that act worse then some high school grads.
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Founding member, 2002-2003, 2005-2006 Director of Communications, 2004-2005 Secretary for the Crunchenstein Project]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15267596 Tue, 17 Jan 2006 18:51:22 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15267461 nil : Education is what you make of it.. not useful for everyone. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15267461 Tue, 17 Jan 2006 18:35:20 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15267222 pbagrat : Education is not a replacement for experience, although in today's business world thats what it has become. I do not necessarily agree with it, but if I want to remain competitive I must play the game. I went back to college in January of 2005 to pursue my AAS in CIS through Kaplan. I will graduate this August and continue working towards my BS in CIS at my local university. Why did I do this? The job I've been working at for 6 years is laying people off and I am no longer qualified to work there (no undergraduate degree) despite the fact that I am among the top 10 percent in performance. Want to get a decent job and keep it? You need the degree.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15267222 Tue, 17 Jan 2006 17:59:31 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15267163 TearAbite : i'll have to partially agree with the XRay..
paying gobs of $$ to get a pretty piece of paper to hang on your wall does not buy you any common sense..

I used to work with a guy with a Masters degree "business" (or some such thing).. but he was borderline RETARDED! (no exaggeration).

I have also interviewed countless 'grads' for I.T./Tech Support roles that could hardly speak english, or did not know how to answer a telephone.. BUT.. they DID have those pretty pieces of paper ..

.
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Click HERE to see my FAKEz]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15267163 Tue, 17 Jan 2006 17:50:46 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15267102 MrBradTX : If baccalaureate grads are indistinguishable from HS grads, then either the colleges aren't doing their jobs, or those doing the observing have a too-narrow focus.

Colleges aren't supposed to merely install fresh knowledge into immature post-adolescent skulls. Colleges are also supposed to transform immature post-adolescents into mature, responsible young adults and equip them to continue to grow, mature and learn the rest of their lives.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15267102 Tue, 17 Jan 2006 17:42:32 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15267034 Ray : I don't. And I'm very good at what I do. I see people graduating from college with huge debts that are virtually indistinguishable from high school grads. You can lead people to knowledge, but you can't make them think. :)
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ON DELETE CASCADE]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15267034 Tue, 17 Jan 2006 17:31:45 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15266121 redhatnation :

said by Ray :

Higher education is a rip-off.

Not sure if you are trolling, but I have to ask...

Why do you feel that way? Do you have a college degree?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15266121 Tue, 17 Jan 2006 15:24:33 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15265905 Ray : Higher education is a rip-off.
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ON DELETE CASCADE]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15265905 Tue, 17 Jan 2006 14:53:30 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15265859 astirusty : How most managers and HR people read the quote.

quote:

---

... there's essentially no difference between IS workers with high school diplomas and bachelor's degrees, according to the SANS Institute's ..."

---

And people wonder why we have information security problems. :(]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15265859 Tue, 17 Jan 2006 14:47:34 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15264526 antdude : »nwc.securitypipeline.com/showArt···77100481

"There's a growing market for information security expertise, and salaries are reflecting heightened demand. But beware--when it comes to pay, there's essentially no difference between IS workers with high school diplomas and bachelor's degrees, according to the SANS Institute's 2005 Information Security Salary and Career Advancement survey of more than 4,250 IS pros. People with grad degrees can expect to earn significantly more, however."
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Ant @ The Ant Farm: »antfarm.ma.cx ... Please do not IM/e-mail me for technical support. Use the forum (I check almost daily)! Disclaimer: The views expressed in this posting are mine, and do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15264526 Tue, 17 Jan 2006 11:42:32 EDT