Re: I love the new encryption scheme! in http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r15477133 en Wed, 02 Dec 2009 08:35:24 EDT Wed, 02 Dec 2009 08:35:24 EDT Re: I love the new encryption scheme! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15497140 gheezer : Insults are meaningless.

I work Cisco every day in a network that services 2 Million customers. At command line. It's true.

I have been doing Computer work since 1982. Networking since 1988. I'm a bit more clueful than you realize.

There's NO NEED to inspect the packet. You watch the IP flow pattern at layer 3 and mark on the top talkers.

»netflow.cesnet.cz/

»manageengine.adventnet.com/produ···dex.html

»www.cisco.com/warp/public/732/pa···0604.pdf

it's you who aren't seeing this...read the article a bit closer, it says BOTH ends must be running the same encryption client. With the, thus far, limited distribution of the encrypted client, the netflow monitoring isn't seeing hundreds of simultaneous connections request, so the netflow monitering sees no need to throttle.

TOP TALKERS, no more, no less....and no reference to service port.
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You argue that encryption doesn't beat throttle. That's complete and total bullshit, and I've shown you the proof. Maybe it's possible you don't even know HOW encryption works, (and I quote your post "The source and destination addresses (at layers 2 and 3) CANNOT be encrypted".

(helpful hint from a real cisco engineer: Layer 2 MAC addresses aren't send beyond the switch.. that's why it's called a 'switch' and not a 'router')

There is no way to inspect an encrypted packet, unless you know some 'magic super decrypter' that does it or you are the NSA with the real time processing capabilities. ENCRYPTION defeats everything Shaw is trying to do to throttle torrents. PERIOD. Shaw will need to rip out all that worthless equipment, and install new equipment to TRY and defeat torrent traffic. And of course, the torrent makers will defeat THOSE techniques too.

As I said before "There are other options, of course, like limiting connections, etc. But that's not the issue.".

I researched your 'supposed' technique of 'ip flow pattern', and can't find it being used anywhere on a WAN basis. Then I realized, oh, wait, he's talking about Cisco Traffic Manager. I've used that! But it FAILED MISERABLY, and it NEVER WORKED WELL. In fact, Cisco gave up on it 2 years ago! It CAN'T work. The processing power and memory required to maintain a table of just ONE ports session states was huge. Try and scale that up to 10,000 nodes at once? There's no processor/memory combo even remotely powerful enough. Maybe I'm wrong, and your right. Please point me to this 'magic device' if it's available. (hint: a notebook based application ISN'T the same thing as an enterprise level processor. Monitoring one port, or even 100 ports is cake, Monitoring 10,000+ is impossible.

Go back to the original message. The objective of SHAW is to throttle torrent traffic. Not the entire connection. Not the total bandwidth, just torrent traffic. They can't do it. The internet wasn't designed that way, and encryption defeats all currently available methods of traffic shaping based on content.
--
Sure the internet has lots of porn and piracy, but I'm sure there's a downside to it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15490468 Thu, 16 Feb 2006 12:41:57 EDT Re: I love the new encryption scheme! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15488486 gheezer : Bullshit. Traffic shaping can be done by netflow pattern, and can be protocol port independant.

IP FLOW PATTERN.

Hundreds of simultaneous incoming connection attempts destined for a single address.

1 in 5 can easily be discarded.

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Join the NAVY, see the world....It's mostly water!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15488486 Thu, 16 Feb 2006 06:44:10 EDT Re: I love the new encryption scheme! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15487786 G_Poobah : have to reply, but what the hell are you talking about? Of course the upstream devices knows who I am, that's impossible to hide. But it's completely irrelevant to your misguided attempt to understand how encryption works. As the original post goes : If you ENCRYPT your bit-torrent traffic, the traffic shapers DON'T WORK. I described in detail exactly WHY they don't work. Because the info leaving your computer CANNOT be inspected with the technology they deployed. Period. Encryption defeats packet inspection, which is why I argue that ALL traffic should be encyrpted by default. Any crap about the ISP being able to see Layer 2-7 traffic is meaningless, as the encryption occurs BEFORE it leaves your PC.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15487786 Thu, 16 Feb 2006 01:19:40 EDT Re: I love the new encryption scheme! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15481261 gheezer : Packets can't get back to your PC without referencing your machine's IP Address. Without a MAC address, there's now way for your upstream router to ARP your CPE for the forwarding tables. Without a forwarding table entry, your packets go nowhere.

Your upstream device ALWAYS knows who you are.

Layer 2 and 3 aside, the service port you open is meaningless
as the BitTorrent/E-mule netflow pattern showing thousands of simultaneous inbound connection attempts to one CPE is well known and easy to spot.
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Join the NAVY, see the world....It's mostly water!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15481261 Wed, 15 Feb 2006 10:03:09 EDT Re: I love the new encryption scheme! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15480965 G_Poobah : Umm, you use big words, but you don't know what they mean.
First of all, Encryption occurs at layer 2, in fact, they even have a NAME for it.. It's called L2TP (or Layer 2 Tunneling Protocol). You can set it up on your Windows PC very easily by creating a VPN connection.

How does this magic Layer 2 Tunneling protocol work? Why, it ENCAPSULATES (It's a big word, but you could look it up) the protocol inside the PPP, then it puts the entire package inside the frame (usually IP). So, from the OUTSIDE, the Man in the Middle (ISP) can see.. hmm.. everything from layer 1 (they own the switch) to layer 7. But they have NO IDEA WHAT'S INSIDE. Period. The PAYLOAD is the entire package. For all you know it could be a netbios frame! It PROTECTS you from ANY TRAFFIC SHAPING because it's an ALL or NOTHING approach. The ISP could throttle ALL encrypted traffic, or NO encrypted traffic. There's no middle ground.

So, given that the entire package of data from my pc to your pc has been encrypted, and the only way to unencrypt it is for your PC to have the correct key. Please tell me how they could determine WHAT PROTOCOL I was running? Am I running HTTP? Am I running SMTP? Am I running TELNET? Oh, wait, they CAN'T TELL. PERIOD.

So, there is NO WAY to selectively filter encrypted traffic on a protocol level. The entire concept of trying to 'throttle' encrypted torrent traffic by packet inspection is pointless, since they can't tell it's torrent traffic.

There are other options, of course, like limiting connections, etc. But that's not the issue. The issue is all that expensive, fancy equipment they bought is now a worthless piece of electronics. In fact, most of the vendors have a FAQ saying 'yes, encryption will defeat our devices, but we expect congress to outlaw encryption'.
--
Sure the internet has lots of porn and piracy, but I'm sure there's a downside to it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15480965 Wed, 15 Feb 2006 09:06:30 EDT Re: I love the new encryption scheme! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15480900 Shark_615 : Don't bother posting a reply to That idiot(G_Poobah).

He is a naive, unrealistic communist troll who needs to move out of his parents house into the real world. He tried to move to N. Korea but they denied him due to his extremely stupid views on pretty much anything.

His most used tactic if you disagree with you is to ignore the post, or claim you are a pro-corp apologist fascist (doesn't make sense to me either) or that you work for _insert ISP Here_. He does this to avoid thinking thus possibly realizing he was wrong.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15480900 Wed, 15 Feb 2006 08:51:29 EDT Re: I love the new encryption scheme! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15480429 gheezer : Since the devices at layers 2 and 3 are NOT running this encryption scheme, (being that the company doing the throttling actually OWNS that equipment), THAT information can NOT pass encrypted.

Had you ever done a NETFLOW analysis (highly unlikley), the UNTHROTTLED encrypted activity pattern sticks out like a sore thumb.

The source and destination addresses (at layers 2 and 3) CANNOT be encrypted. For the packets to be delivered, they MUST be legible to the devices doing the forwarding.

All encryption does is scramble the PAYLOAD. Encryption protects you from the xxAA's, not network traffic shaping.

The ONLY reason it APPEARS to work is the limited distribution, thus far, of encryption clients. (in order for it to work, both sides have to encrypt identically).
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Join the NAVY, see the world....It's mostly water!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15480429 Wed, 15 Feb 2006 05:43:13 EDT Re: I love the new encryption scheme! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15478816 Combat Chuck :
said by G_Poobah See Profile :

Oooh, the corporate apologists all post within a 20 minute window? And now I'm gonna change the subject cause thats all I got.
I may have edited that a bit. You know...just in case anyone was confused by your sudden concern with explaining the two ways you know how to throttle a protocol.
--
Asking those who disagree with you to find support of your arguements is like asking an assailant if you can borrow his gun.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15478816 Tue, 14 Feb 2006 22:25:33 EDT Re: I love the new encryption scheme! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15478660 ssj4android : How is Azureus working proof that he works for Comcast?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15478660 Tue, 14 Feb 2006 22:05:39 EDT Re: I love the new encryption scheme! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15478543 toadlife : Simple solution. If the traffic is encrypted, throttle it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15478543 Tue, 14 Feb 2006 21:49:08 EDT Re: I love the new encryption scheme! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15478463 G_Poobah : Oooh, the corporate apologists all post within a 20 minute window? how could that possibly be..

Professional Astroturfers are not allowed to say they are paid by megacorp .. Well, DUH.. That kind of disclosure would be like.. hmm.. oh the bush administration admitting they are wiretapping citizens without warrants, and we all know how that turns out. Oops, gotta be careful about criticizing the administration, heard cheney is being sent out as a hitman now.

The point is that there are only TWO ways to throttle traffic. The old school way is port throttling. You set your switch to drop traffic on port XXXX until the bandwidth is low enough. That of course causes the clients to do a massive number of retries, which slows down the PC until the software is smart enough to throttle itself (at the OS level)

Option 2 is deep packet scanning. In fact, they are using the ellacoya switch at several of their hubs. They have used several others, but last I heard they hadn't finalized the vendor yet. Again, I ramble. In order for a deep packet inspection to work, the traffic needs to have VISIBLE and UNDERSTANDABLE header information. If you've ever looked at a TCP dump (possible), you'd understand that in order for an inspection to work, you need to be able to determine exactly WHAT is in the packet. Once the keys are exchanged, all these 'deep inspection devices' go to hell, as all they can tell is that it IS traffic, but have zero idea WHAT traffic it is.

Proof? Why.. Azureus and utorrent work again! How could you possibly need more proof than that? Once everyone upgrades their clients, the war starts all over again.
--
Sure the internet has lots of porn and piracy, but I'm sure there's a downside to it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15478463 Tue, 14 Feb 2006 21:39:06 EDT Re: I love the new encryption scheme! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15478296 TKJunkMail :
said by G_Poobah See Profile :

In any case, rumor is he's paid by comcast to post here. (and yes, he works for comcast outside of Philly).
Rumor is wrong as I stated here once before. I'm retired. And your out and out claim that I work for Comcast outside of Philly is based on what? Do you just make up things on purpose or do you have dreams where you can't tell fact from fantasy?
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said by hobgoblin See Profile :

Sort of like you are doing now eh?
You might as well as ignore Poo, he likes to say his ridiculous crap and then disappear once called on it.
His newest tactic is to say that anyone who doesn't agree with him is the same person, or is paid by this or that. I assume it makes him feel better since he can't defend his opinions logically once confronted.

I'm still waiting for him to explain how pointing out that encryption isn't going to help for long is pro corporate propaganda:
»Bit Torrent Encryption Arms Race
--
Asking those who disagree with you to find support of your arguements is like asking an assailant if you can borrow his gun.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15478272 Tue, 14 Feb 2006 21:15:32 EDT Re: I love the new encryption scheme! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15478241 ylen131 : hopefully they will start enforcing copyright laws in canada and you get arrested for downloading copyright files]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15478241 Tue, 14 Feb 2006 21:12:47 EDT Re: I love the new encryption scheme! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15477966 anon : Definately like the new icon better than a puking twelve year old...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15477966 Tue, 14 Feb 2006 20:49:56 EDT Re: I love the new encryption scheme! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15477943 anon :
...
Traffic shaping and throttling (either concurrent connections or byte caps) are not a substitute to upgrade your network.
...
[/bqoute]

We just got a quote for $3000.00 per month for a fractional T-3 at 10 MBit/Sec.

The reason we are willing to pay that kind of money to get an honest to God 10 Mbit/Sec connection is simple. It won't be shaped. It won't be capped. It won't be limited.

We are upgrading our network.

Now, cluefull one, how much of that would you like to purchase? We will sell you the first 1 Mbit/Sec for $300.00 per month. We will *PROMISE* you 1 Mbit/Sec when you want to run your torrents, we will not shape you, we will not cap you ...

AND WE WILL NOT MAKE A DIME...

You figure it out. Duh.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15477943 Tue, 14 Feb 2006 20:46:43 EDT Re: I love the new encryption scheme! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15477987 SSX4life : It does not matter if I don't live in Canada, I've got friends who do and I can still clearly see the differences. Agreed yes I'm in WI, but is that really the issue here? Isn't the issue that Shaw / Rogers is NOTupgrading their networks and because of this they are taking other approaches to solve a problem? Would you see the telephone company cutting lines because they have too many people making phone calls? Would you see cellphone companies telling you, "you can't make those phonecalls, not that many phonecalls because we have too many users on the network for us to support fully" ? hell no!

Don't tell me that throddling internet, and capping websites is only a misunderstanding! That they are doing it because they can, that they are disabling newgroups because obviously you, I, and everyone else are petafiles and search, download, and j@ck off to kiddie p0rn right?

No, they turn off newsgroups because it's one more thing thats slowing down their slow-ass network, one more thing that they feel the users don'tneed, one more thing that needs to be fixed! Upgrade the pipes, or kick people off of them that's their mentality! Sure we'll raise the costs of a per month isp, packet shape people, and still deny it! Sure this sounds like a great buisness plan!

Now I'm getting mad and I could go on, but I don't want to be on this soap box too long.

Point 1. It doesn't matter where you are, by limiting the speed, denying it, and cutting services you are hurting yourself, your customer basis, and the overall professioinality of your buisness

Point 2. You are setting a standard that could be implimented across the globe. Remove skype and VOIP because you want us to use your networking VOIP instead, remove newsgroups because you say it's capible of using kiddie porn (don't get me wrong, I still think that's sick sh!t, just find a better reason to shut it down than that).

Point 3. This clearly shows you need to upgrade your network.

Points said, points recieved, points taken

--SSX--
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 Due to Sony's backhanded tactics, horrid EULA's
and lack of respect please boycott all Sony pructs!
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Boycott Sony's Webpage ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15477987 Tue, 14 Feb 2006 20:39:31 EDT Re: I love the new encryption scheme! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15477929 donaldk : There is always around to get to the hole.

Unless they start throttling the connection for every single bit there will be a way around. Eg: Why does DRM on audio CDs never work? because the underlying technology doesn't support it and cannot have it implemented unless they want to be incompatible with the basic CDDA player from the 80s.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15477929 Tue, 14 Feb 2006 20:33:46 EDT Re: I love the new encryption scheme! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15477626 hobgoblin : Poo Bear posted

"Common tactics include, but are not limited to, diverting the conversation off on a tangent,"

Sort of like you are doing now eh?

Hob
--
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." - Ralph Waldo Emerson ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15477626 Tue, 14 Feb 2006 19:52:57 EDT Re: I love the new encryption scheme! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15477289 G_Poobah : He's just a troll.

In any case, rumor is he's paid by comcast to post here. (and yes, he works for comcast outside of Philly). Comcast admitted about 6 months ago on an internal memo that they have, and have had for several years, professional 'astroturfers' to try and counter the anti-comcast rhetoric that sprouts up. (sort of like what happens with walmart). Paying someone 400.00/week to try and obfuscate msg boards is an easy way to take advantage of the simple minded at low wages, and has the added benefit of amusing even the moderately intelligent people of their desperate attacks.

There's a couple of other posters who work for the bells, etc. They aren't hard to spot, as they follow the scripts their handlers give them to attempt to counter any comments that make their paid supporters look bad. Common tactics include, but are not limited to, diverting the conversation off on a tangent, blaming it on 'criminals', telling them to 'start their own isp', and the classic 'it's their lines, they paid for it'. It's sort of fun to watch them post, almost at the same level of zoo monkeys throwing feces. They don't really affect anything, but you have to grin at their antics.
--
Sure the internet has lots of porn and piracy, but I'm sure there's a downside to it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15477289 Tue, 14 Feb 2006 19:07:41 EDT Re: I love the new encryption scheme! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15477133 firephoto : They probably just keep changing his meds but they most certainly are always the red pills no matter what they are.
--
Location: +48° 5' 23.40", -119° 48' 30.00"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15477133 Tue, 14 Feb 2006 18:48:32 EDT Re: I love the new encryption scheme! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15476925 GigahertZ420 :
said by TKJunkMail See Profile :

said by GigahertZ420 See Profile :

Incorrect or purposely incorrect? I ask this because I see you regularly post with different names and different locations... Just makes me and many others kind of wonder...;)
Just trying to bring a little mystery into your drab lives.:D
Well as some may have alluded, the question may be which company(s) pays you to post here? You seem to regularly have a sympathetic ear to corporations and their "draconian" policies, but if your a stockholder that would explain it all...:)

I personally would like to render any and all ISP's throttling completely ineffective through VPN, encryptions, or other methods. Nothing like making a $50,000 peice of hardware utterly worthless and letting management know they should have invested that money in decent routers, switches, and backbone gear.

That and the fact that BitTorrent being an increasingly utilized method for legitimate downloads LINK makes any companies that cap/throttle look dumb and customer unfriendly]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15476925 Tue, 14 Feb 2006 18:25:56 EDT Re: I love the new encryption scheme! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15476844 TKJunkMail :
said by GigahertZ420 See Profile :

Incorrect or purposely incorrect? I ask this because I see you regularly post with different names and different locations... Just makes me and many others kind of wonder...;)
Just trying to bring a little mystery into your drab lives.:D
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said by TKJunkMail See Profile :

said by RadioDoc See Profile :

Something tells me you aren't in Pocono Pines, PA, nor have service from "Northwestel Cable" (a Canadian cable operator) either... ;)
And that is why I asked 1st if he was in Canada. Location info might be incorrect.;)
Incorrect or purposely incorrect? I ask this because I see you regularly post with different names and different locations... Just makes me and many others kind of wonder...;)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15476803 Tue, 14 Feb 2006 18:13:39 EDT Re: I love the new encryption scheme! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15476787 TKJunkMail :
said by RadioDoc See Profile :

Something tells me you aren't in Pocono Pines, PA, nor have service from "Northwestel Cable" (a Canadian cable operator) either... ;)
And that is why I asked 1st if he was in Canada. Location info might be incorrect.;)
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said by TKJunkMail See Profile :

said by SSX4life See Profile :

let us use our connection how we want, and don't dodge the Fu@#$ issues rogers/shaw!!! We know you did it, and we know you lie to us, come out of the closet once and for all.:mad:
And are you in Canada? Your profile location says Wisconsin, USA. So how is Rogers or Shaw stopping you from using YOUR connection? Mental telepathy, perhaps??
Something tells me you aren't in Pocono Pines, PA, nor have service from "Northwestel Cable" (a Canadian cable operator) either... ;)

This cat and mouse game always ends badly for the mouse. Guess who isn't the mouse.
--
Toolmaster of La Grange.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15476695 Tue, 14 Feb 2006 17:58:13 EDT Re: I love the new encryption scheme! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15476674 GigahertZ420 :
said by TKJunkMail See Profile :

said by SSX4life See Profile :

let us use our connection how we want, and don't dodge the Fu@#$ issues rogers/shaw!!! We know you did it, and we know you lie to us, come out of the closet once and for all.:mad:
And are you in Canada? Your profile location says Wisconsin, USA. So how is Rogers or Shaw stopping you from using YOUR connection? Mental telepathy, perhaps??
It doesn't matter where he is located, that is a fallacy. He/she doesn't want these policies to find their way to the USA.

Traffic shaping and throttling (either concurrent connections or byte caps) are not a substitute to upgrade your network.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15476674 Tue, 14 Feb 2006 17:56:21 EDT Re: I love the new encryption scheme! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15476640 TKJunkMail :
said by SSX4life See Profile :

let us use our connection how we want, and don't dodge the Fu@#$ issues rogers/shaw!!! We know you did it, and we know you lie to us, come out of the closet once and for all.:mad:
And are you in Canada? Your profile location says Wisconsin, USA. So how is Rogers or Shaw stopping you from using YOUR connection? Mental telepathy, perhaps??
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*note* you need to be on the exact same connection and client for the packet shaping and encryption to work.

However overall I'm VERY pleased and I can't wait for future releases.

let us use our connection how we want, and don't dodge the Fu@#$ issues rogers/shaw!!! We know you did it, and we know you lie to us, come out of the closet once and for all.:mad:

--SSX--
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FU*K SONY/BMG!
 Due to Sony's backhanded tactics, horrid EULA's
and lack of respect please boycott all Sony pructs!
Bender - Sony can bite my shiny metal ass
Boycott Sony's Webpage ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15476597 Tue, 14 Feb 2006 17:43:39 EDT