dslreports logo
site
 
    All Forums Hot Topics Gallery
spc

spacer




how-to block ads


Search Topic:
uniqs
2587
share rss forum feed

joco2

join:2006-02-20
Culpeper, VA

AT&T (ACC Business) T1 Questions

Ok folks check this out... I got a great deal from AT&T (ACC Business for a T1) for $390/month for a T1. However, it took 3 months for the install because the LEC (Verzion )had to build out to support the T1... which I can understand....

So Verizon comes to the house and does the install, the service guys tells me thath Yea you have a T1 to the CO, but you are on ADSL to the house....

So my questions is, dont you think I should be paying DSL prices instead of T1 prices... I mean when you sigh the contract its for a T1... not T1 speed....


LBDSL
Lightning Bolt

join:2002-01-07
Auburn Hills, MI
First, just because one "Tech" tells you something, that doesn't mean it is true

What speeds do you have? If you have over 1.0 upload, I can gaurentee you are not on an ADSL circuit.

What type of equipment do you have at your location?

Have you called ACC to ask them?

What type of SLA do you have?
--
Lightning Bolt Technologies

joco2

join:2006-02-20
Culpeper, VA
I do not see speeds over 1.2 upload. If I look at the box on the house inside there is a smart card... no other place that I have had a T1 had a smart card.... I have called ACC and they do not know, as Verizon is the CO and its their equipment from the CO to the house. As for an SLA, I have business SLA is that what you mean?


LBDSL
Lightning Bolt

join:2002-01-07
Auburn Hills, MI
From what you have just said, you have a T1.

joco2

join:2006-02-20
Culpeper, VA
How do you know? According to Verizon, they do not support T1 to the house, they do not have the equipment for it... only ADSL....

joco2

join:2006-02-20
Culpeper, VA
Also, you can get 1.5 mbps upstream with DSL.. my buddy has it with Covad....


LBDSL
Lightning Bolt

join:2002-01-07
Auburn Hills, MI
said by joco2:

Also, you can get 1.5 mbps upstream with DSL.. my buddy has it with Covad....
On SDSL, yes, not ADSL.

If you want to believe the one tech, then your only solution is to talk with the provider ACC.

I assume you came here for advice and info, I have given you that, whether you choose to listen or not, is up to you, I can only tell you what the info you provided tells me, and that is, you have a T1 (1.2m with TCP overhead is 1.5m)

Also, just a little friendly advice, ACC only uses Verizon (your ILEC) for the local loop, your provider is ACC, talk with them, not Verizon.
--
Lightning Bolt Technologies

joco2

join:2006-02-20
Culpeper, VA
Sorry... the tech said I did have SDSL from the house to the CO. But not a true T1. I spoke to ATT they said it is customary to have an SDSL line from the CO to the house. But I have never heard that. And really my question is if ACC (ATT) says that I have SDSL to the house, then why should I be paying T1 prices.


RockyBB
Premium
join:2005-01-31
Steamboat Springs, CO
If your access is running on SDSL protocol, but at the central office it's cross connected over to AT&T dedicated MIS, then you're fine. If your circuit is run into a DSLAM at the local central office, that is something else indeed.

you really need to take this up with your ACC Business agent. notwithstanding what I said above, ACC is paying for a private line to your location, not a SDSL connection.

joco2

join:2006-02-20
Culpeper, VA
reply to joco2
Thats my problem.... I purchased and pay for a T1 all the way to my location, but somehow I have an SDSL line to the house.

But the real issue is this, if I was not told by my Verizon tech, I would be paying for something I do not have. And when I talk to ACC they tell me its customary to have a SDSL line to my location but from the CO its a T1. All of this is the problem, I have no idea what I have, there is no way that I can verify any of this. Honestly I think these telcos do what they want and really just pull the wool over the eyes of us customers.

mikebb278

join:2002-06-17
Marana, AZ
reply to joco2
A good question, that I am suprised that no one has asked is, what equipment are you using as CPE?

Mike


LBDSL
Lightning Bolt

join:2002-01-07
Auburn Hills, MI

2 edits
said by mikebb278:

A good question, that I am suprised that no one has asked is, what equipment are you using as CPE?

Mike
*Cough*

said by »AT&T (ACC Business) T1 Questions LBDSL See Profile :

What type of equipment do you have at your location?
--
Lightning Bolt Technologies

joco2

join:2006-02-20
Culpeper, VA
At my location, ACC provided me with a Cisco router, which is connected to my Firewall which is connected to the Win network

mikebb278

join:2002-06-17
Marana, AZ
reply to LBDSL
Sorry...Didnt see that...

Look at the interface on the router, what does it say above it or below it.

Mike
--
CEO, Network Admin, Website Designer, Chief Cook and Bottle Washer, MPH Network, Inc.


davoice

join:2000-08-12
Saxapahaw, NC

1 edit
reply to joco2
Sounds like the tech here wasn't quite aware of what he was saying. Based on the fact that you have a smartjack and a Cisco router, you have what's called a "PairGain" circuit. That is SHDSL or HDSL. It's often used to deliver a T1 in places where either 1) there are not enough wire pairs in the area to service a standard 4-wire T1 circuit to your home or 2) your home is served by a DLC (digital loop carrier) such as Alcatel's Lightspan unit. PairGain loops can deliver any type of T1 - clear channel, PRI voice, robbed bit, etc.

Based on where you are in Virginia, I would guess you are on a DLC.

There's nothing to worry about in this case. I am an agent for and on the staff of the ACC Business' largest sales agent. ACC/ATT won't know you're on PairGain b/c to them it looks, smells and works just like a traditional T1. And their interconnection contract with Verizon provides all the same SLAs for a PairGain circuit as it does for a 4-wire traditional T1. Only the LEC will know the circuit is not a 4-wire circuit.

Also, ACC only sells 'private line' connections for their internet connections. They do not sell SDSL or DSLAM based products. Meaning your T1 does go directly back to ATT's POP (across Verizon's CO network) instead of going through a aggregator (like Covad).

Try this SpeakEasy speed test and test your speed to the Washington, DC location.
»www.speakeasy.net/speedtest/

Something else, take a digital camera and get pictures of the card that's in the smartjack - the thing your Cisco router is connected to. Post those online here. That will tell those of us who deal with this daily more than any words can ever say.

FYI...In Bellsouth territory, we're seeing more PairGain circuits being installed than anything else. In fact in reasonably sized cities in Bellsouth territory it's almost impossible to get them to install a 4-wire circuit. They switched to PairGain circuits for most of their new installs to conserve copper and interfer less with DSL lines that might be in the same wire bundle..

PS... Across our thousands of ACC T1 customers, we haven't noticed any reliability difference between PairGain circuits and 4-wire circuits. We have PRI (23B+1D voice ISDN T1) circuits being delivered over PairGain lines that have been up and running 24/7 for the past 3 years without even 2 seconds of outage.

Edit: I mentioned it above in passing but I'll mention it again for clarification... SHDSL/HDSL/PairGain has a couple benefits for the LEC. 1) It only uses 2 wires instead of 4. 2) It interfers MUCH less with other T1, ADSL and SDSL lines that might be in the same wire bundle. A 4-wire T1 in a wire bundle with a handful of DSL lines is just wishing for headaches for the DSL customers. The 4-wire T1 produces enough interference that it can drive those DSL lines crazy. 3) Due to purchasing volumes, a PairGain T1 card for a DLC unit is usually cheaper for the LEC than a regular 4-wire T1 card (if one is even available). When the newest LightSpan units came out Alcatel initially only made PairGain cards for them. The carrier couldn't even buy a 4-wire T1 card for their LightSpan DLCs b/c there wasn't one available. That meant everyone behind a LightSpan got PairGain circuits whether they wanted them or not.

}Davoice

joco2

join:2006-02-20
Culpeper, VA
Davoice,

Thanks for the info. From what you are saying that sounds about right... I will however, take some pics so you can see exactly what I have.

But here is my concern.... I paid for a 4 wire T1, and not some PairGain HDSL equivalent. Otherwise why would I not have just gone to Covad and gotten a SDSL line for about $250 less per month?

But again, thank you for your help, its great to hear that some people actually do know what they are talking about.


davoice

join:2000-08-12
Saxapahaw, NC
Actually... read the contract. You paid for a T1, with a T1 SLA. There are no specifications on how the T1 is to be delivered. It could be delivered over SONNET, single mode fiber, 4 wire copper, PairGain, or microwave. The transmission method is irrevelant to the contract and is at the local telco's discretion. The only specification is on the delivery interface that your CPE connects to and the performance characteristics of the network you're connecting to.

Them's the breaks. In our world of changing telecommunications, you can't always expect things to be done as they always have been.

PS... SDSL is less expensive b/c the connection goes into a shared DSLAM (thus there is contention for network resources) and the downtime and time-to-repair SLA is much more loose (i.e. 99% instead of 99.9%).

}Davoice

joco2

join:2006-02-20
Culpeper, VA
Understood....

But I do have a problem and so does my attorney, that I was promised a T1 and to me that includes SLA, Delivery via 4-pair and speed....

Again I am not trying to slam you, its just a bit unnerving when no one know anything, especially on the ACC and LEC side.....


davoice

join:2000-08-12
Saxapahaw, NC
Ok... Have your attorney go read the tariff regarding T1 loops and explain it to you. The short version is the carrier is free to use whatever delivery method they see fit, provided the service meets the existing tariffed T-1.403-1989 service interface specifications for delivery of DS1 service. There is no legal or implied requirement for them to use a 4-wire copper delivery method.

Oh, and I forgot in my last post to include coax as a potential delivery medium. I've seen some rural T1s run over coax (though coax is usually reserved for DS3s).

If the agent who sold you the T1 promised you a 4-wire circuit then he/she is either uninformed or for lack of a better way to put it... is an idiot. PM me with the name of the agency from which you bought your circuit and I'll inform their ACC channel manager they need to be educated on the subject.

Best wishes!

}Davoice

joco2

join:2006-02-20
Culpeper, VA
Thanks again... I will forward that info on....

Well if this is the case, and I can get the same performance with an SDSL line (1.5mbps up/down) then I will just switch to Covad at the cheaper price for a SDSL line.

But this is all great information, I wish I knew this beforehand, it would have saved me waiting for 4 mos while the CO built out....


davoice

join:2000-08-12
Saxapahaw, NC
reply to joco2
Hint #1 - SDSL may or may not provide the same performance. Different Covad POPs are more oversold than others. Since SDSL service is a contention service - like ADSL - your performance will vary depending on the conditions on Covad's transit network and usage levels in the DSLAM where you are connected. 1/2 of the people we hear from on Covad circuits love it. 1/2 of the people hate it. (FYI, we hear proportionally more complaints from the northeast corridor and from California than from anywhere else.)

Hint #2 - This just underscores how important it is to chose a knowledgeable agent. Next time you're in the market, PM me and I'll get one of our guys to steer you clear of these sorts of hidden potholes.

On a final note, don't knock your HDSL fed circuit. As I stated originally, we have not seen any performance differences between 4-wire digital and 2-wire PairGain circuits. And depending on the area, I often actually prefer them b/c it tends to be an indication you are served by a DLC. Being served by a good DLC is beneficial b/c the loop length is usually pretty short. Shorter loop lengths generally equate to fewer problems (and fewer opportunities for a telco technician to screw up your physical cross-connects in the field).

Plus in areas where copper is in short supply, having a PairGain circuit *significantly* reduces the chance that some tech will accidentally grab one of your pairs to use for activating POTS service for someone. I have a whole file of complaints we've had to file over the years for 4-wire customers (mostly in Verizon/AmeriWreck territory) in the past where it was discovered that their T1 started acting up b/c 2 of the 4 wires were re-appropriated 'accidentally' in the field to fix/provision service for another customer. (B/c the field tech didn't hear anything on his/her old butt-set and assumed the copper was free.)

}Davoice

joco2

join:2006-02-20
Culpeper, VA
reply to joco2
well once again you are THE source of information. BTW, who do you work for and what areas do you cover so I can be sure to recommend them to you....

wierdo

join:2001-02-16
Tulsa, OK
reply to joco2
Uh...I haven't seen a 4 wire T1 around here in years. They're all HDSL. That's just how it's done these days. You (should) still get the same service.


RockyBB
Premium
join:2005-01-31
Steamboat Springs, CO
reply to joco2
said by joco2:

I was promised a T1 and to me that includes SLA....
as I understand it, ACC Business has no SLA for MIS (internet T1) accounts. Do you have a written SLA from ACC Business for your circuit? I'm don't mean to alarm you...I've said before that SLAs aren't worth much. Just wanting to avoid confusion of others who are told that ACC Business doesn't have a SLA.

joco2

join:2006-02-20
Culpeper, VA
reply to joco2
Yes I do have a contractual SLA for my T1


RockyBB
Premium
join:2005-01-31
Steamboat Springs, CO
would you mind sharing that? black out all the info about you, but I would like to see the document that ACC tells me is not available.


sporkme
drop the crantini and move it, sister
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-01
Morristown, NJ
reply to wierdo
said by wierdo:

Uh...I haven't seen a 4 wire T1 around here in years. They're all HDSL. That's just how it's done these days. You (should) still get the same service.
Not "should" but "do". Any modern buildout I've seen in the last 7 years or so has always been an HDSL or SHDSL circuit. I think the OP is really not grasping the technology. He bought and paid for a point-to-point T1 circuit from his house to the ATT PoP, and that's what they delivered.

It's common practice these days to use (S)HDSL for T1 delivery. As everyone else here has said over and over, it's a T1. One of the variations is even better than a real T1 - it still runs 2 pairs but rather than splitting TX/RX over the pairs, it puts symmetric 768Kb/s on each pair and the line continues to work at 1/2 capacity if you lose one pair.

Anyhow, comparing Covad SDSL to an ATT T1 is just silly. The underlying T1 access method really matters little; the end user is not going to be able to see any performance difference between a "real" T1 and one delivered in a modern fashion.
--
Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity