Are You Getting the Speed You Pay For? > Evidentally education isn't worth much these days

Evidentally education isn't worth much these days

Is "best effort" a license to misrepresent the capability of the network? If not, then why object to measuring the actual performance?

There can be a fine line between "best effort" and "no effort". This measurement would increase the visibility of that line a little.

reply to GhostDoggy
Agreed, but then no mechanism exists to determine if network-side is deemed debatable.

reply to GhostDoggy
Re: Evidentally education isn't worth much these days

Evidently , you're right.
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Burrow owl...burrow owl...

reply to JTRockville

Home computer problems could be avoided if the PNC did the tests. Or if the provider did, similarly to how FCC proof tests are conducted.

Your concerns are easily addressed. They aren't an excuse for the lack of accountability.

I understand that. However, there is still one thing that you have avoided. The speeds are not the top speeds - the top speeds are the up-to speeds.

Are you conveninetly not reading the entire package detail as required? Are you not noticing that they are required to give you 256kbps and thats it?

Where I see they are failing to provide service is when the speeds drop below 256kbps, "broadband speeds" and when that happens, they fix the service.

I COMPLETELY agree that ISPs should be held accountable when their service isn't delivered. However, the election year policital idea, which is designed to flame their angry broadband users to vote for their re-election, is not going to cut it. The idea and approach they are taking is more flawed than them not providing the speeds they are in fact required to.

As for the "avdertised speeds" that so many people think they are going to get (and are high in their entier thought process) these people deserve head ache when they sit on the phone for hours because they are only getting 5.5 of the 6mb speeds.

You'd have to have comercials for broadband that start sounding like Levitra comercials. The comercials are going to become nothing but "Get our fast internet" and then 29 seconds of terms and conditions. But why stop at broadband? Why not do it with Hostess Twinkies? You see the twinkie for 1 second and then 29 seconds of how this product will kill you.

I have NO sympathy for IDIOTS in this world that don't ask questions or read the entire offer of the prouct they are going to purchase and then they bitch about not understanding what they are getting. These people should be moved to an island in the southern pacific to form a new nation of complete idiots.

I am SICK and TIRED of people who don't take thier own responsibility. It's been said here before, to which I agree.. there are in fact people that get horrible speeds on their service. However, I would have to say that those people are FAR out-numbered by those that get excellent service.

This is not as big of a problem as it's being made into. There are MILLIONS of broadband users out there and most are satisfied. You don't hear about those people because they aren't here spending their waking life bitching about how good thier broadband service is. You DO, however, have more people that are entitlests that sit here and bitch every time their broadband connection falls 100kbps.

Is there a problem? Yes, but it's not another item that our government should "react" to in order to change. The approach of a speedometer is rediculous. What they SHOULD do is simply this... open up the market place to more providers, as they should, and let the marketplace decide who they want for a service provider. THAT alone will cause broadband providers to ramp up and provide better service to their customers or be lost in the dust by those that will.

My problem is two fold: 1) The silly proposition to add the so-called speedometer. Any good network person would say that this is a flawed idea. 2) People that would not understand, or abuse the so-called speedometer and start tying up the provider causing rates to rise and fees to be put in place or go up. This would ultimately make it bad for EVERYONE around and those who actually DO have a valid problem.

I agree that an ISP-provided speedometer is silly - especially since they're so readily available.

Do you have any objections to the state PSC/PUC publishing the average achievable speeds, which ISP advertisements could not exceed?

Re: Evidently Neither is IGNORANCE

I resent being lumped into your response (ex: "Reading all of your comments").

Sorry just following the thread, so don't be so thin-skinned. Hopefully, you read the rest of that response and picked up some things.

Commenting about the statement "Any good network person would say that this is a flawed idea." makes me laugh.

Any good network person should want to know what the network is doing 24/7 in a real mission critical environment, so I really question the criticism.

As to fiberguy's other criticisms: Hey fiberguy - you cannot manage, what you cannot measure. You take it for granted you are getting what you are paying for? Who do YOU work for?

Just based on some of the comments on this thread, no one is thinking too strategic. You need metrics to measure quality of service.

"We're striving for the status quo.....or less." Duhhh.

Does that sound like a Best Practice to you?

reply to carlini7
I am not sure how to follow your post, but let me answer your pump 6 pay for 10 comment.

You are not purchasing gas at a verified pump. Internet can't be compared to gas. You are assuming that your residential service is going to run better than corporate or comercial internet service with an SLA. A residential class of service is not going to run full steam and without problems all the time. If you ahve listened to the people in this tread, to which I mostly reply to, demand rock solid always at the top speed internet service - it's just not going to happen.

Resitential service is sold at maximum, or up-to, speeds. People, however, look at the ad and graze past the terms of the offer. So, in this case, you are really purchasing 256kbps internet and getting UP TO 6mb or 8mb or what ever your top advertised speeds are.

Advertising does this all the time. They put out their best foot forward and go from there. It's up to the consumer to read the terms of the offer - as we know most don't.

Unsophisticated consumers... Who's job is it to educate the consumer on how to use the internet? The ISP? or the consumer? If you are unable to figure out how to test your speed, I am sure that you are able to use a phone book and look for a technical support company to test or set up your network, or teach you how to use the internet or how it works. There are also classes at your local comunity centers or Jr. College. Further, you can call your ISP's tech support and ask them to test the line. One thing is for certain, it's not the job of the ISP to ensure people know who to find speed tests, ensure their networks are working properly, or teach them how to secure their computers (though most do or at least give them the tools to do so)..

I think this is also where I disconnect with many here. I do not beleive that broadband service needs to be dummed down to be idiot proof. It's time that people actually "learn" and keep up with the times and technology.. or simply not use it. I personally am tired of those that take no responsibility for their own world.. it happens all over the place.

Fiberguy
The problem is that if the service is a ubiquitous service - there has to be some assurances that you (the consumer) are getting what you paid for.

Most people are not going to go to any courses to "learn" the intricacies and should not have to. Do people go to courses to learn how to plug in a toaster? If this is truly just another "utility" you should not need to have a certificate. How many have a certificate of mastery in electricity? AND - having meters goes back decades as people back then were more concerned about getting what they paid for.

People need to have this "broadband" as a simple tool with simple ways of knowing it is working - and working up to what it was sold for.

The way telecom has been marketed to the masses is that it is something "mystical" and no one understands it except those that are intimately involved.

And yes - there have been people responding to my article about questionable activities like this:

SBC will call on the telephone and ask if you would like to double the speed
of your DSL for $5.00. But in every case of checking for friends, I never see an increase in speed.
SBC knows that most people don't check or don't know how to check the down/up speed of the connection. They increase the price and the customers think they got
a great deal. Most of my friends are too far from the CO to get the higher speed but
SBC doesn't tell them that!

Regards,
Name Withheld
Columbus,Ohio

Again - You cannot manage what you cannot measure, and this article seems to have hit more of a critical nerve than I ever thought it would.

Let me say this to your toaster example, which is silly, because I even disagree with you there.

We all are responsible to know what we have. Ever head of buyer beware? Ever heard of buyer responsibility? Even cars have owner manuals that you are supposed to read and you even need to complete some sort of drivers course or training and to be tested before driving. Further, you can buy Adobe Photo Shop at a price tag of about $799.00 but is adobe responsible to teach you how to use it?

This is where you and I disagree with. Why do you buy a computer and not learn the ways of it's function. People do not "need" broadband as you stated. There is NOTHING that has been deemed by society that broadband, at this time, is a necessity. It's our government and our people that will deem it a necessity. Until then, it's an option. People get along without broadband every day! Don't even get me started on this.

If people want or need broadband, they should learn how to use it. They should also know that being connected to the interent all the time comes with other responsibilities like learning and understanding safe browsing, how to keep adware safe systems, how to protect their computers from viruses - at minimum to simply install and keep updated virus protection.

Based on your assertion, why shouldn't the government also make the ISP responsible to ensure your computer is clean and safe to be online? At what point is it your responsibility to know basic concepts of how the internet works? After all, you are not just plugged into your small world of websites and email partners when you plug in, you are connected to EVERYONE in the world that is on the internet. YOUR computer is capable of doing damage to others if you don't understand the basics.

If you don't want to, or don't simply know how to, check your speeds, that's your fault. Our own government works on a system of checks and balances. The consumer is going to act as their own check on their internet. If your cable tv picture goes fuzzy, do you not call the company to have it serviced? IF your computer is running slow, why should you not learn how to test the speed of your own connection? Why WOULDN'T you want to know this?

It's the everyone else's responsibility to ensure you know everything around you. It's not "time for people to take responsibility for their own actions and world"... that's to imply that it never has been. People are responsible for their own affairs. I beleive in survival of the fittest.

If you want a society where everyone else is responsibile to take care of your affairs, may I suggest you head to France and join in with the protests of those silly and unruley kids who believe that you have the right to guaranteed employment? Is this what you want here? I don't.. and I will fight tooth and nail aginst people like you.

Take responsibility for your self and learn. If you are unwilling to do so and to educate your self, then you deserve to be screwed at every turn! I don't feel sorry for these people. And, if you beleive that someone else should watch your speeds, then I believe that others should be responsible to stop open wi-fi routers too.

By the way, if you don't know how to, and haven't learned how to plug in a toaster, then you should not use one either. But, to compare a toaster to the internet is like sizing up pennies to hundred dollar bills.

Fiberguy

You get hooked on the minutsia. If telecom (Broadband) is looked at like a utility then there are certain things people expect (and maybe demand) in order for it to be of value.

I should not have to be an certified electrician to use electricity - or plug in a toaster. Your argument about "learning everything' is bogus. Survival of the fittest??? I just want simplicity.

And I did not say someone ELSE should watch my speeds - I said put in a speedometer so I CAN watch my speeds. I don't need to depend on the government or a techie and I don't want sophisticated tools that I have to buy a manual for and spend 80 hours trying to figure things out - that is a supreme waste of time. I want something simple that I can glance at. Am I getting my money's worth? Fine. If not, we have a problem.

Start thinking out-of-the-box and look for simplifying things instead of keeping the complex complicated.

I graduated from being a "techie" long ago. I don't need (or want) to be a network engineer anymore. I want to just use the technology to its maximum and believe it will benefit more if it is simplified and not kept complex.

With your logic, everyone should still be an Assembler programmer knowing how to do bit shifts in order to add two plus two. That may have been an important skill 30 years ago but it is worthless today. Everyone should have "techie" skills? Get real.

Here's your free education on speed tests and speedometer:

»www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=ba···peedtest

Simple, huh?

No where did I state people need to be a network engineer, however, I find it VERY funny that people here look at what Japan and China and other countries are doing for bandwidth speeds on broadband. At the same time, peopl here want what they.. when are people here going to start matching them selves with these other countries on skill levels? The US is populated with low educated lazy people that don't "care" to learn.

Look at McDonalds.. instead of teaching people how to use a cash register, they put a picture of a hamburger and fries on the machine so they can push a picture instead. I am NOT for dumming down America like you, sorry.

Ever wonder why people can't talk on the phone and drive at the same time? They're too stupid to figure out how to. Same with why people don't read their contracts and later claim they were a victom - it's because they are too stupid to learn to operate in a simple society.

Yes, I will continue to hold people responsible to a level that is acceptable. If you are too stupif to know how to find your speeds, then you deserve to get what you get.

It's no secret how to test your speeds. It's on the news, it on the internet, you can google the phrase of anything you want to learn and find your answer. Many people know how to google. Those that don't are there to check their email and do their banking.. to them, they could really care less about speed.

You are putting more into this debate based on your level of thinking and not that of the population in general. There is NOTHING complicated about googling anything. There is no NEED for a school, however, if you don't know how to use something, then it's up to YOU to educate your self. It's NOT the ISP's place to educate you and I certainly DON'T want the ISP to control the speed test either! Yea.. the mouse guarding the cheese.

Why do the ISPs need to have a tool to tell you if you are getting your money's worth? VERY VERY few related industries, and I can't even think of any, are required to tell you if you are. There is going to be NO accurate way to tell if you are getting your proper speed.. it's almost impossible! Why? You are a techie, you should know. Yes, you can tell how fast YOUR computer is to the network, but what happens when YOUR computer is causing the slow down? Are you going to call intot he ISP and bother them with your problems? Turn your back tot his fact as many do, but speeds ARE based on MANY factors and the last mile line is only one piece. A simple cat5 cable in your system can cause a slow down, but you knew that already because you have graduated to techie, right?

This is nothing more than another group of public officials that want to drive an issue to keep their jobs... "see what I did? I gave you a speed test, even though they are already available, but I developed the speed test so you can keep an eye on your ISP. It only cost the tax payers a but laod of money to deliver something that won't work any way... but oh yea.. remember to keep me in my public official job next round would you?"

Silly! The whole thing is silly!

FIBERGUY

You definitely have some issues.

"The US is populated with low educated lazy people that don't "care" to learn."

Wow do you stereotype like crazy. I see a lot of people trying to work hard and compete. Evidently we must live on opposite ends of the town.

You said other industries do NOT tell you if you are getting what you are supposed to. WRONG. Gas stations have pumps that are certified. Stores have scales that are certified. Electric Utilities have meters as do the gas companies. Where do you live?

How am I dumming down America? Because I demand taking the "mystique" out of all the network voodoo? You cannot manage what you cannot measure - and based on your comments it is clear you never worked in any major facility because if you were in a mission critical shop you would want everything simple so you could review it quickly, get the status and move on. Googling for tools and doing all this "techie" stuff is not where people are at. There is NO reason for people to be super techs.

Technology should work for you - you shouldn't work for technology.

I do not have issues. I understand reality. I think you don't like the truth.

My statement about low educated and lazy people.. fact bud. We have some of the lowest scores among students as compared to other countries. Where kids in other countries on a level to ours would be in school studying and paying attention to school, our students would rather be out f*ing off. Our priorities in the US are much different than those of other countries. The statistics are cold, hard, and available. Look them up.

We, in this country, don't want to take the time to learn. How many people won't take time to read instructions? How many people in our country would rather call support and be walked through something? I don't care what you see in your world.. and I am not looking in mine, rather, I am looking at the whole picture. It's the truth. Sorry if you don't like it. I never said there aren't those that do work hard. You and I are probably in the same circle of people that are hard workers.

Next - don't compare the gas pump to internet speeds. Two different issues here. Gas, you are buying a volume, hard tangible volume. Internet is NOT a guaranteed speed. Internet does fluxuate and goes up and down. Thank you, though, for bring up the gas analogy as I was waiting for that one. So far, none of those items you compared to internet speeds are valid comparisons.

Next - don't make assumptions. If you would read and follow my posts, you would know what I do for a living and what industry I have been in for about 15 years now. I can say, you are wrong. You bring up mission critical and that's fine, but not proper in a residential service. They have made it very clear since the days of DSL that the internet, in general evern, can have speed flux based on MANY factors. I have YET to ask for people to be super techs. I am asking that people take an active role and learn what they are using. Care to guess how many people can't even set up a pop3 email account? Why do you think web based email is so popular? Why do you think there are wizzards to set up your email, and why do you think AOL is still popular to many people? It's not their dial up you know.

Let's agree to disagree. You won't sway my opinion on personal involvement.

FIBERGUY

You don't have any idea of what I have worked on in the last 25 years. I am a practicing professional and an expert witness, not a full-time academic which for whatever reason seems to be viewed negatively which I think is just jealousy from those that don't have any degrees and instead wave their rinky-dink certificates as if they have some indepth knowledge base.

Please understand my pragmatic view simply looks at networking as it either works - or it doesn't. There is no "philosophy of networking" and I believe people should try to understand it -- HOWEVER - if we can make the technology simple, MORE people can use it and get benefit from that.

What is wrong with that concept? We have to keep it difficult so someone like you can pound your chest and say "I know how to configure all this from scratch" when there are tools out there to automatically configure things???

Get over it. As I said in an earlier post, understanding how to shift a bit to add "two plus two" in different registers is not a critical skill anymore. We have moved on.

You sound just like a Jr. College instructor that was concerned about having people know how to write in HTML. With all of the tools that are out there that automatically generate the HTML you really don't need to.

As to my analogy it is PERFECTLY on target. Network subscribers are consumers - they need to have a comfort level that shows them they are getting what they are paying for. Again - what is the difficulty in grasping that concept?

We need to take out the "mysticism" (read that B-LL S--T)
out of networks and start dealing with measurable and easily identifiable tools that EVERYONE can use.

You keep bringing up all these questions about "how many people can't do this?" and "how many people can't do that?" with network accounts/tools. You just don't get it. Most could care less about the techie stuff, they just want to use the "utility" and get the value out of it.

As I said in an earlier post - I don't want to be a Master Electrician to use my toaster or TV and if you cannot see the marketing strategy in that, you are the one with the limited skill set.