Re: Idiots in http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r15920193 en Fri, 04 Dec 2009 06:35:19 EDT Fri, 04 Dec 2009 06:35:19 EDT Re: Idiots http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16071279 moonpuppy :
said by AJ_CHICAGO See Profile :

Was the village going to rent the fiber in their private network to AT&T and Comcast? Maybe I missed that part. The villages have concerns. Some are ligit. They need to be worked out. Stating that franchise agreements are in order is taking a stand and not "working it out in good faith". Slapping on an upgrade moritorium for 6 months is also not what I would consider trying to "work things out in good faith". What the villages have done is to force the question of franchise agreement relevance to the courts. AT&T has no other viable option on that issue. It must be legally decided, now.
ATT was trying to make sure no one else put in any other type of fiber network. They cry about not wanting to deal with franchise agreements HOWEVER, they want to be the only game in town. Sorry, but if the only way ATT can compete to to bully their way around, then they need to be regulated out.

ATT can't have it both ways. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16071279 Wed, 10 May 2006 19:52:16 EDT Re: Idiots http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16070175 AJ_CHICAGO : Again, was the village going to rent their fiber network capacity to some carrier with the ability to load it with high bandwidth video products? If not, then they were planning on building a network with "black bandwidth" (to coin a phrase) not required for the common internet use of their citizens. I don't get it, and I don't see this fact discussed anywhere in this thread. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16070175 Wed, 10 May 2006 17:08:27 EDT Re: Idiots http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16069870 AJ_CHICAGO : Was the village going to rent the fiber in their private network to AT&T and Comcast? Maybe I missed that part. The villages have concerns. Some are ligit. They need to be worked out. Stating that franchise agreements are in order is taking a stand and not "working it out in good faith". Slapping on an upgrade moritorium for 6 months is also not what I would consider trying to "work things out in good faith". What the villages have done is to force the question of franchise agreement relevance to the courts. AT&T has no other viable option on that issue. It must be legally decided, now. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16069870 Wed, 10 May 2006 16:21:42 EDT Re: Idiots http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15936838 Odie97 : I guess I am part of the meaningless banter ... so I will stop now.

Though one item that you may find of intreest is that I actually quit my day job ... bet the ranch via a second and third mortgages on the house (invested about $250K) of my own money to get something started ... because everyone talked but no-one put there money where there mouths were ... and to this day everyone continues to just sit by and watch ... so now I'm a frustrated bantering fool I guess ! So much for trying to actually do something. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15936838 Thu, 20 Apr 2006 16:44:45 EDT Re: Idiots http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15935286 garagerock :
said by Odie97 See Profile :

Whenever anybody elaborates around the tricitybroadband debacle or fiber-for-our-future assembly and their 15 minutes in the spotlight it simply becomes more bulletin board banter, something new to post on a web site ... it all goes nowhere and serves no purpose, other than to inflate some inexperienced ego's.

It would be really great to see the whole tricitybroadband and fiber-for-our-future "one hit wonder parade" to just go away. (oh yea, and that "one hit" was a foul ball ... matter of fact, you hit two foul balls and the last pitch was a called third strike ... your out!

This whole discussion is just like the GIO list group ... a bunch of meaningless voices ... lots of talk ... unable to put forth anything or take any action, with no money, no direction and no meaning. Just of bunch of chatter from people who can't do anything.

No need to elaborate further ... it is all well documented !


curious post...do you take your own advice? so you're just part of the meaningless banter? ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15935286 Thu, 20 Apr 2006 12:37:28 EDT Re: Idiots http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15934131 Odie97 : Whenever anybody elaborates around the tricitybroadband debacle or fiber-for-our-future assembly and their 15 minutes in the spotlight it simply becomes more bulletin board banter, something new to post on a web site ... it all goes nowhere and serves no purpose, other than to inflate some inexperienced ego's.

It would be really great to see the whole tricitybroadband and fiber-for-our-future "one hit wonder parade" to just go away. (oh yea, and that "one hit" was a foul ball ... matter of fact, you hit two foul balls and the last pitch was a called third strike ... your out!

This whole discussion is just like the GIO list group ... a bunch of meaningless voices ... lots of talk ... unable to put forth anything or take any action, with no money, no direction and no meaning. Just of bunch of chatter from people who can't do anything.

No need to elaborate further ... it is all well documented !

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15934131 Thu, 20 Apr 2006 09:28:50 EDT Re: Idiots http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15931147 Octopussy2 : I really have no clue what you are talking about. Please elaborate.
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It's muni-licious! »www.tricitybroadband.com]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15931147 Wed, 19 Apr 2006 20:13:35 EDT Re: Idiots http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15930450 Odie97 : I'm sorry Octopussy2 ... but the gig is up,

There were several people and organizations before you that offered assistance and advice, albeit for a fee, for this is how professionals in this business make a living, and you said just volunteer and give us your knowledge and expertise for free, while some started to do this (foolishly) and quickly found that all of what was offered was being disregarded, (plagiarized) not only by the community leaders but most certainly by the Fiber for our Future assembly.

You were a large enough market with a large enough footprint and you elected to do battle with a force that you had absolutely no real life experience in going against and you elected to tell all that could have helped, to go away, unless they volunteered and gave for free for you to take credit for ... and that you were smarter the all because you lived in the community and had "inside" connections.

I call this naive and can add some other adjectives that I shall refrain from stating. In any event ... now you claim to be experts after having been through simply one project ... a project that you failed to boot, due to blind stupidity and lack of any real experience ... and now these are heralded as lessons learned ... well documented to cover you own foolish tails in my opinion. Now people like you sit on the State of Illinois broadband task force ... my God help Illinois for they are being lead by the blind and foolish.

You guys had an opportunity to do something really good and you blew it!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15930450 Wed, 19 Apr 2006 18:32:43 EDT Re: Idiots http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15929164 Octopussy2 : Odie97,

No one was being nieve here in the Tri-Cities about our referendums and what SBC and Comcast was going to do to us. In fact, many other communities, like our friends in Lafayette, LA benefitted from learning about what we did right, wrong, and what they could expect. I am not saying we were the first munis to try to deploy FTTH, but we were certainly a large enough footprint in a big enough market that a giant battle was waged on us...and we documented it all. Find a bigger one before us...and one our citizen group has not helped educate.

It is because of our very documented battles that others are able to learn from US. Other munis can look at our web site and see what such a battle might cost, what literature from incumbents will look like, etc.... I am proud of our citizens who continue to participate in Fiber For Our Future. We continue to make a difference in IL and elsewhere in the country. Thank you!
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It's muni-licious! »www.tricitybroadband.com]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15929164 Wed, 19 Apr 2006 15:17:55 EDT Re: Idiots http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15928981 Odie97 : NOTE: "primary" mission ... they do all sorts of "other" things (and should be doing a whoile lot more, besides sponsoring Monday Night Football) ... and will always claim they are good corporate citizens. But at the end of the day it is all about the money ... all about the profit ... all about executive mgt. bonus's ... and all about the "market" (Wall Street).

Have our corporate conglomerates (especially the ILEC's)lost sight of "doing good by being good" ... you bet your sweet bippy! Don't get me wrong, I hate them SOB's as much as anyone ... we simply need to stop playing into their hands.

The customer is unfortunately speaking loudly and way too many of us continue to buy their services and drink their brew.

Imagine what would (could) happen if there was a "universal cancellation day" and consumers across America spoke loudly and simply cancelled their service ... you would see them jump if they lost 10 million customers over the course of 2-3 days ... shareholder value would plummet and they would start paying attention. This sill never happen in our lifetime but it sure would be cool to see happen.

We need to change the rules ... not legal or legislative rules ... just simply start acting upon some alternative business models that would stick it to them ... there are several solid and interesting "alternative" models and strategies out there right now, unfortunately everyone is still running around trying to create or re-create strategies that have already been seeded and doing nothing more than creating conflicting plays and not working in effective collaborations.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15928981 Wed, 19 Apr 2006 14:50:08 EDT Re: Idiots http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15928574 guitarzan : AT&T spent a boatload of money on those push/pull polls,and also a nice chunk of change on politicians for their back pockets.
This makes me wonder did they run out of money to buy off the local press and squash, those news reports that make them look as if they're a bunch of hypocritical nitwits.?
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quote:
AT&T's business and mission as a publicly traded entity is to strive to establish shareholder value ... this is their primary mission and objective ... welcome to America


No, really? I hadn't noticed. HOWEVER (and I suit up in my flameproof suit for this one), all corporations in this country also have other responsibilities. There's no shareholder value without customers. There's no customers without providing attractive services/products. This skewering of local community's interests in the name of the almighty profit motive just goes to show they (and others) have forgotten that.

The Robber Baron age is just about over, so they better think up really quick how they are going to repair their image of being the Deathstar in search of profit only pretty fast.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15927847 Wed, 19 Apr 2006 12:02:42 EDT Re: Idiots http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15927802 Odie97 : While the whole story around the Tri-City Broadband debacle is now just an amusing "what not to do" discussion it could have gone much better it it were not lead by amateurs and inexperienced people who played right into the ILEC's hands and trap. And you are still playing right into their hands ...

The statement of ... AT&T definitely does not have the consumers interest in mind and unfortunately their pockets are deep enough to make politicians look the other way, AGAIN AND AGAIN in every state ... is exactly right! AT&T's business and mission as a publicly traded entity is to strive to establish shareholder value ... this is their primary mission and objective ... welcome to America.

I continue to be perplexed as to why people and communities keep playing their (the ILECs) game. The only way that anything positive is going to happen is if communities start working around and through NEW AND DIFFERENT models and paths that can navigate around the mine field that has been placed "by the ILECS" over many years. The whole Geneva, Batavia, St Charles discussion is nothing more than the same people saying the same thing around a path and strategy that they screwed up through being inexperienced and naive to the game they were playing and with the teams they were playing against. When people (citizen groups with no experience, money or valid strategies) refuse to listen to people who had been through it before ... are really nothing more than certain individuals attempting to build a name for themselves, while really doing nothing of good or value for their community.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15927802 Wed, 19 Apr 2006 11:55:12 EDT Re: Idiots http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15922874 T1 Rocky : Way to go Peter! It's nice to see someone finally stand up against them and you know your in the right. Your one of the few cities establishing the precedents that will dictate what happens nationwide.
AT&T definately does not have the consumers interest in mind and unfortunately their pockets are deep enough to make politicians look the other way, AGAIN AND AGAIN in every state in the US. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15922874 Tue, 18 Apr 2006 17:32:48 EDT Re: Idiots http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15922725 Octopussy2 : One thing I wanted to add about the citizen-driven referendum in Nov. 2004....A few newspapers serving the Tri-Cities inaccurately reported the broadband referendum was "defeated" by a vote of 55%-45% in St. Charles. As a HUGE point of clarification...the broadband referendum vote WAS NEVER CERTIFIED by the Mayor or City Atty. for St. Charles because of ballot errors made by the Kane County Clerk's office.

The broadband question was to be voted on by those residents living within city limits of St. Charles. The problem was that voters outside the city limits of St. Charles also received the broadband question in 17 precincts. Over 4,100 votes were known to have been cast by those living outside of the city limits. A true outcome will never be known for the broadband question in St. Charles. One cannot GUESS about an outcome, or theorize how things might've gone had the ballots been correct. The fact remains ineligible voters were allowed to vote on the question (more than double the difference between yes and no votes originally tallied).

This ballot error also occured in a precinct in Batavia.
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It's muni-licious! »www.tricitybroadband.com]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15922725 Tue, 18 Apr 2006 17:09:23 EDT Re: Idiots http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15922050 BVT : Tennessee One Call is similar. There is a centralized service that directs the member utilities & underground ROW owners to mark their property themselves.

If they miss mark or do not show up, they shoulder the costs of any damages. They also have to bear the costs of marking their ROW.

A contractor can jerk the utilities around by calling in an emergency order. Then, for whatever reason, let their excavation permit lapse & go get another. Then all utilities have to remark the ROW. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15922050 Tue, 18 Apr 2006 15:24:53 EDT Re: Idiots http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15921863 Octopussy2 : Mr. Brannock used those statements as part of a massive FUD campaign against the citizen group, Fiber For Our Future, who proposed (and wrote the question on the ballot in the case of Batavia and St. Charles) the broadband referendum in November 2004. The grassroots citizen organization proposed a muni utility to bring FTTH and FTTB in Geneva, Batavia and St. Charles, IL. It was not a requirement for residents to take service, it would've been a choice to take service (voice, video, or data services).

The citizen's group met with several private financing groups to fund the utility and built a financial model. But muni revenue bonds were also an option. The referendum question prohibited "tax-backed financing" by the cities. In other words, the utility could not be funded by general obligation bonds. The Nov. 2004 referendum was only advisory, and had it passed, was to be used by the cities to begin exploring the possibility of creating a broadband utility without tax-backed financing. If no way could be found to create such a utility, or no vehicle of financing was available, then the utility would not have been created.
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It's muni-licious! »www.tricitybroadband.com]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15921863 Tue, 18 Apr 2006 14:58:15 EDT Re: Idiots http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15921754 djdanska : Thanks for posting this. It's nice to hear from the other side. (And welcome to dslreports!)
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He who would sacrifice freedom for security deserves neither freedom nor security.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15921754 Tue, 18 Apr 2006 14:43:03 EDT Re: Idiots http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15921726 Octopussy2 : That simply isn't true. You do not understand revenue bonds.
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It's muni-licious! »www.tricitybroadband.com]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15921726 Tue, 18 Apr 2006 14:37:35 EDT Re: Idiots http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15921415 rahlquist : While I see and hear your arguments I find it flawed to say that no municipal programs like broadband can work. The simple solution in my book would have been to let the city do its rollout, include a performance mandate to be met. If they couldnt provide the profits needed to be self sustaining then require them after X period of time to shut the network down and sell the fiber to the competition. If anyone at AT&T had half a brain in their head this is what they would encourage if its truly impossible fore muni broadband to make a profit.

Instead the minute they feel threatened they roll out the steamrollers and smash every little iota of competition in their path. No worries though because at the current rate AT&T will be on big fat #@$#@$ Ma Bell again soon and cities will have little choice other than to allow them to do whatever they want. Otherwise AT&T can simply offer to pull out and let the city handle their own infrastructure.
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said by axus See Profile :

Isn't this how school districts are funded? Not everyone has school-age children, and not everyone uses broadband, but they are worthwile things to spend for the benefit of society as a whole.
No one is debating that governments have to spend money on things. The debate is... why would you spend money on things that are being provided at no cost to the government (such as privately funded broadband) at the expense of other things that the private sector won't provide (universal education)?
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Rove / Rumsfeld 2008!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15921379 Tue, 18 Apr 2006 13:42:16 EDT Re: Idiots http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15921255 axus : Isn't this how school districts are funded? Not everyone has school-age children, and not everyone uses broadband, but they are worthwile things to spend for the benefit of society as a whole.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15921255 Tue, 18 Apr 2006 13:22:01 EDT Re: Idiots http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15921157 pnh102 :
said by marigolds See Profile :

Um, muni utilities are built with revenue bonds, not GO bonds.
The muni people are not expecting the people who aren't subscribing to the service to pay them for anything either.
It doesn't matter how the government tries to pass them off as not costing people money, they do. EVERY municipally run broadband operation is either subsidized by taxes or by siphoning funds from some other municipal service. In the end, non-subscribers in such a model are are paying for service they do not use.
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Rove / Rumsfeld 2008!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15921157 Tue, 18 Apr 2006 13:06:22 EDT Re: Idiots http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15921092 gao16 : Kirk Brannock's statements, including the “What are you going to do with 20 megabits?” are examples of either corporate stupidity or corporate greed.
If AT&T executives truly believed that people would not want or need higher speeds than those offered at the time they are a bunch of morons. If they used those statements to dissuade voters from using tax money to pay for that infrastructure until they were ready to offer it, that's pure greed. I don't know which is worse.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15921092 Tue, 18 Apr 2006 12:55:23 EDT Re: Idiots http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15920985 gao16 : I will say that I am unsure of the obligations of cities in Illinois to map private infrastructure in the ROW, and the costs involved. Your example of costs incurred by the city of Geneva is flawed, however, because they own their own electric utility.

In Illinois a service named JULIE operates as a one call center for excavators to provide information to all utilities.
JULIE is a non-profit company that does not do their own locating, their costs are covered by the member utilities as are the costs to locate the facilities. JULIE covers the entire state except for the city of Chicago. You can find more detail at »www.illinois1call.com/about_us/c···file.htm. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15920985 Tue, 18 Apr 2006 12:38:20 EDT Re: Idiots http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15920892 moonpuppy : What you have posted here is first hand accounts of either the complete ignorance or sheer stupidity of ATT.

"What are you going to do with 20Mbits" means "why offer it when we don't have to."

Twenty three years of networking experience? Sounds like 23 years of penny-pinching to me.

Verizon is making it work. ATT doesn't want to make it work and refuses to let anyone else try.

Mr. Collins, it is time to tell ATT to take a hike. :D]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15920892 Tue, 18 Apr 2006 12:24:35 EDT Re: Idiots http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15920776 marigolds :
said by gao16 See Profile :

First, I believe it is the responsibility of the company placing the facilities to map the location of their facilities. If the city govt is keeping digital records, they should already have most of the cost built in to track where the public utilities are placed.
Second, I know it is the responsibility of the owner to locate their own facilities or contract a company to do it at their own expense. The owner(or contracted company) is also responsible for cuts due to bad locates.
Third, generally private utilities like phone,gas,electricty , and cable are put in at about 1'-5'. Water and sewer are usually placed much deeper.
I don't know if these points apply outside of Illinois, but since the story is about a city in Illinois, this should apply in this case.
All of that depends completely on the state.
In Illinois:
Cities are required by law to map private infastructures in ROWs (common for midwest states). I don't know of any state actually that places the responsibility on the private company beyond supplying paper records. Even if the city has a full GIS department, the cost is pretty significant for creating the layers (if they do not have a full GIS department or have to do the mapping in CAD, the cost gets much bigger). To take an example from Geneva, they recently contracted out the electric utility GIS conversion maintenance (not mapping, but conversion), and the cost of maintenance alone was $86k. They choose to contract act because the conversion would have required 100% of staff time for a full year.
»www.geneva.il.us/minutes/PDF_min···0822.pdf

Cities are required to operate or fund the locating service, not the utilities, but can collect franchise fees from utilities to fund this (but AT&T is refusing to pay franchise fees) (might only be true of Illinois, but in other midwest states cities are liable for cuts in their ROW if the locate is bad). Geneva might not be a big enough city to be required to provide a one-call service, yet since they have multiple municipal utilities (water, sewer, garbage, electric) they probably do have their own one-call service. Also, statewide one-call bears no liability at all in Illinois.

As you said, water and sewer are placed deeper than utilities like fiber lines. That means that the city will have to get access through that part of the ROW to do water and sewer upgrades.
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Toolmaster of La Grange.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15920766 Tue, 18 Apr 2006 12:07:32 EDT Re: Idiots http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15920682 PeterCollins : To lend to your point, here's a little recent history firsthand.

Voice Mail Message from David Strahl of AT&T to Mayor Kevin Burns & All Geneva City Council members

Friday, April 14, 2006
11:30 a.m. CST


Mayor Burns this is Dave Strahl with AT&T.

I’m calling with regard to the proposed moratorium on the build out of our project Light Speed in the City of Geneva. As taxpayers and property owners in the City of Geneva we obviously think that is an ill-advised strategy we would much prefer to be able to sit down with city staff and address whatever issues or concerns they may have with regard to that project.

As you probably know, Project Light Speed offers a video alternative to Comcast cable as well as provides residents with much higher speed DSL, high-speed internet access. I think both of those are things the community was crying out for during the TriCity broadband referenda. We don’t think that a moratorium advances the issue for our company or your residents. In fact, we’ve had to resort to law suits in three communities in the Chicago area who have imposed that moratorium. That’s with regret and we do believe that we can work out whatever issues or concerns whatever issues the city may have simply by sitting down and discussing those alternatives.

That would be my hope…that at your board meeting on Monday that you would direct staff to set a meeting and see if there is a way to work around any issues or concerns the City may have and allow us to get on with the work of providing your residents with some exciting new services.

I can be reached at 847.2XX.XXXX. Give me a call if you have any questions. Thanks a lot and have a great Easter. Bye Bye.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Peter Collins [mailto:pcollins@geneva.il.us]
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 4:55 PM

Dear Mayor Burns:

First off, I think it’s important to note that Geneva is anything but “anti-competition.” We welcome AT&T’s proposed investment in our community to provide another option for our citizens. It’s in this same mode that we are also exploring bringing wireless internet providers to Geneva as well.

Our issues with AT&T’s Project Lightspeed, however, stem from trying to do what is proper for our citizens and legal in our Rights of Way. AT&T appears to have real issues with guaranteeing equal services for all of Geneva – a point of contention not present in our existing franchise agreement with Comcast.

In addition, Illinois has a “Level Playing Field Statute [65 ILCS 5/11-42-11(e)], Subsections (4) and (5) which state, with emphasis added:



(4) ... Except as provided in paragraph (5) of this subsection (e), no such

additional cable television franchise shall be granted under terms or conditions more favorable or less burdensome to the applicant than those required under the existing cable television franchise, including but not limited to terms and conditions pertaining to the territorial extent of the franchise, system design, technical performance standards, construction schedules, performance bonds, standards for construction and installation of cable television facilities, service to subscribers, public educational and governmental access channels and programming, production assistance, liability and indemnification, and franchise fees.

Allowing AT&T to enter our video market without regard to the language above could be construed as allowing AT&T to have an advantage over the existing franchise holder, Comcast, and could be grounds for Comcast to stop adhering to the requirements of our existing franchise with them.

Another point to pay close attention to is the number of potential cabinets we could end up with in our r.o.w. Using AT&T’s estimates, and trying to be as generous as possible, each new Lightspeed box will serve approximately 300 - 400 customers. Using 8,800 as an approximate count of residential customers, Geneva could see roughly 22 to 29 of these pads/network ops boxes in our R.O.W. just for serving homes in Geneva. The approximate size of each one of these boxes is 63"H X 44"W X 20"D sitting on a 90"L X 68"W X 5"D concrete slab. This number excludes, of course, any additional boxes need to serve business or industrial customers.

In addition, because of last year’s ruling by the FCC that new fiber builds do not have to be shared, any new provider that might come to Geneva could quite possibly have to build their own cabinets in similar numbers, should AT&T decide not to share facilities with that new provider. (An unfortunate aside of all this is that as while we get fiber further out into the neighborhoods, I fear we will begin to lose what little semblance of competition we have in the EarthLink/Covad dsl market. New fiber means less copper for those providers to use.)

Per your request, I've attempted to address some of the claims of AT&T we've heard about recently.

I've heard that AT&T representatives have attempted to call you and the Aldermen, and that the gist of the message is something along the line of, "If you pass the moratorium on Monday, we'll sue Geneva."

The voice mail I heard suggested City staff would/had not met with AT&T. This is plainly false.

AT&T did come in, sat down with us, and explained their position. That meeting took place on March 9th at 1:30 p.m. at Geneva Public Works. In attendance representing the City were Mary McKittrick, Travis Parish, Jennifer Hilkemann, Dan Dinges, Chris Bong, Dave Morris, & myself. Representing AT&T were Dave Strahl, Tony Bily, Pam Summers & Bruce Brown.

AT&T also just did the same at the DuPage Mayor's & Manager's Conference on April 7th in Oak Brook. Again, among the AT&T representatives was Dave Strahl.

AT&T's position has remained the same. They feel they are not subject to local franchising because of the delivery mechanism of their services (IP) while strangely, on the federal level, they continue to push for national franchising regulations.

AT&T has only today returned to us with their model Memorandum of Understanding – their idea of an alternate agreement to a local franchise - as they suggested the would at the March 9, 2006 meeting at Public Works. This MoU is nowhere close to meeting the same standards our cable franchise does.

Most important to Geneva though is the dismissal order came last week from the courts in California regarding an SBC lawsuit against Walnut Creek, CA for actions similar to those of Geneva.


Adding more flames to the fire are AT&T’s past actions as SBC & Ameritech. I find it rather amusing that Mr. Strahl tries to sell the merits of their upgrades while invoking the TriCity Broadband referenda – an issue according to the Daily Herald they spent over $205,000 to defeat.



»www.dailyherald.com/kane/main_st···=3838567

Broadband quest cost $300,000
By Garrett Ordower Daily Herald Staff Writer Posted Wednesday, February 02, 2005

To Tri-Cities residents, the onslaught of advertising aimed at defeating last fall's municipal broadband referendum request might have seemed novel: An entire campaign dreamed up to quash a plan that itself was little more than a dream.

But to the coalition of consultants, pollsters, ad gurus and public affairs veterans employed by SBC and Comcast to create the $301,065 campaign, it was old hat.

“….All told, SBC spent $208,324 and Comcast went through $92,440 successfully fighting the municipal broadband referendum request, according to campaign disclosures filed Monday. Voters defeated the question by 60 percent to 40 percent in St. Charles and Geneva, and 53 percent to 47 percent in Batavia.”



During that same pre-election period, SBC (now AT&T) executives also stood before the Batavia City Council and added some confusing statements before their Mayor and Council. On July 6, 2004, SBC’s Midwest Network Services President, Kirk Brannock told citizens of Batavia that that fiber to the home technology suggested by TriCity staff “is not proven”, that they “can not prove it in economically,” and asked, “What are you going to do with 20 megabits?” “The technology that’s being touted….is not there yet.” “We’re going to be offering 3 meg [down in a new development] and most users won’t use that.” (See video at »www.tricitybroadband.com/videos/unproven.wmv . For the record, Mr. Strahl was also in attendance.)



Except SBC then and AT&T now doesn’t really believe that. In fact, Project Lightspeed was announced in June 2004 (»www.convergedigest.com/Bandwidth···ID=12617 ), a full month before Brannock’s statements to the Batavia City Council. At that point, Mr. Brannock knew (or should have known as SBC upper management) SBC’s (now AT&T’s offering) would require at least 25 megabits to each customer.



Even more discouraging is SBC’s announcement last December that they would begin building fiber to the home in a new subdivision in Sugar Grove, roughly 10 miles as the crow flies from Geneva. Remember, according to Mr. Brannock fiber to the home is an unproven technology.



Sugar Grove subdivision taps into speed of light By Leslie Hague Daily Herald Staff Writer Posted Monday, December 05, 2005

When new residents start moving into the Settlers Ridge subdivision in Sugar Grove, they'll have plenty of ways to keep in touch with their old neighbors.

Each of the 2,678 homes in the subdivision south of Route 56 and east of the Chelsea Meadows and Mallard Point subdivisions will be wired with fiber-optic cable for high-speed Internet, phone and cable service.

It reflects the newest step forward for communications technology, said Virgil Pund, vice president and general manager of AT&T Illinois, formerly SBC.

"As we build out, fiber to the home will become standard," Pund said.

Fiber-optic networks allow for faster Internet use, and all household communications go through the same line. Fiber optics will also be able to handle new technology as it progresses, like VoIP phone service, or interconnected electronics, such as calling your house from your cell phone to record a show on TV, Pund said.

The fiber optics in the Settlers Ridge subdivision will offer a speed of 3 to 6 megabits per second and Dish network for television, Pund said.

Many files will download in a matter of seconds through those lines, AT&T spokeswoman Blair Klein said.

DSL lines carry about 1.5 megabits per second, and cable lines carry about 3 megabits per second.

AT&T is working on laying fiber optics to three different subdivisions in the state now, and plans more in the future, Pund said.

"It's a huge value add," said Frank Scaramuzza, chief information officer for Kimball Hill Homes, which is building the subdivision. "It's a pretty big selling point."

Because the fiber is going in as the homes are built, it won't add much to the home price, he said.

"If there's any increase in price, I'd say it would be in the hundreds, not thousands, if even that," he said.

Settlers Ridge will likely be their first subdivision selling houses with fiber optics, he said.

With the cost of laying fiber optics decreasing every year, providing it to entire subdivisions is more plausible, and as new services come along, more and more require a higher bandwidth, Pund said.

AT&T is working with a handful of subdivisions to install the fiber optics to the home technology, Pund said. Settlers Ridge is one of the first because of the company's relationship with Kimball Hill, he said.

Residents won't have to sign up for all the services offered, or even use the fiber optics access from AT&T, but will be encouraged to, Pund said.

"But what we're finding is that most households are becoming more dependent on broadband access," he said. "Everything from having kids in school to managing the household."

Voters in Batavia, Geneva and St. Charles twice voted against - in March
2003 and November 2004 - looking into creating a municipal broadband system that would provide high-speed Internet, phone and cable service to the towns' residents.

Both SBC and Comcast lobbied hard against that proposal during both elections.

>www.dailyherald.com/news/kanesto...d=128912



Where does all this leave us? I would suggest extreme caution with all proceedings concerning the future of Geneva’s Rights of Way. Until agreements can be ironed out that protect the rights of the citizens and the city, while also emcompassing the fair playing field laws we are required to uphold in Illinois, I would urge the Council to allow for time via this moratorium to clarify points of contention before any construction is allowed.

Regards,

Peter I. Collins
Information Technologies Manager
City of Geneva, Illinois
22 South First Street
Geneva, IL 60134
pcollins@geneva.il.us
Phone: 630.232.1743]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15920682 Tue, 18 Apr 2006 11:56:02 EDT Re: Idiots http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15920659 marigolds :
said by pnh102 See Profile :

The major difference between what AT&T is doing and what muni people wanted to do is that AT&T is not expecting the people who aren't subscribing to the service to pay them for anything.
Um, muni utilities are built with revenue bonds, not GO bonds.
The muni people are not expecting the people who aren't subscribing to the service to pay them for anything either.
--
ISCABBS - the oldest and largest BBS on the Internet
telnet://whip.isca.uiowa.edu
Professional Geographer
Geographic Information Science researcher]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15920659 Tue, 18 Apr 2006 11:52:12 EDT Re: Idiots http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15920584 gao16 :
said by marigolds See Profile :

said by Cod See Profile :

said by claudeo See Profile :

How do you figure "at no costs to its citizens"? Any use of public right of way (over, under or through it) has a cost to the citizens.
What exactly is that cost? Not disputing your claim, but perhaps you could elaborate.
Well, for one, since this is Illinois the city will be required to map out and digitize the location of all the fiber with no reimbursement (depends on the size of the city, but easily a six figure cost with about $20k/year recurring costs depending on how often AT&T adds infrastructure).
Also, the city will be required to provide (normally through a contractor) locating services on that fiber and be liable for any cuts from bad locates.
Lastly, the ROW that AT&T uses will not be available for other services and if the city wishes to place any services into that ROW (such as sewer and water upgrades) they will have to pay AT&T for that access.
No offense, but I would take some issue with all of your points.
First, I believe it is the responsibility of the company placing the facilities to map the location of their facilities. If the city govt is keeping digital records, they should already have most of the cost built in to track where the public utilities are placed.
Second, I know it is the responsibility of the owner to locate their own facilities or contract a company to do it at their own expense. The owner(or contracted company) is also responsible for cuts due to bad locates.
Third, generally private utilities like phone,gas,electricty , and cable are put in at about 1'-5'. Water and sewer are usually placed much deeper.
I don't know if these points apply outside of Illinois, but since the story is about a city in Illinois, this should apply in this case. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15920584 Tue, 18 Apr 2006 11:40:48 EDT Re: Idiots http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15920485 pnh102 :
said by G_Poobah See Profile :

Well, DUH, that's exactly what AT&T wants. Remember, the whole '2-tier' internet. You can't use the crosswalk unless you pay AT&T.
Well yea... no one is saying AT&T is supposed to offer the service for free and no one is saying that subscriber fees won't be used to offset the costs of the rollout, but the major difference between what AT&T is doing and what muni people wanted to do is that AT&T is not expecting the people who aren't subscribing to the service to pay them for anything.
--
Rove / Rumsfeld 2008!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15920485 Tue, 18 Apr 2006 11:27:28 EDT Re: Idiots http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15920438 G_Poobah : for example : "every time I crossed the sidewalk I should have to pay a tax"

Well, DUH, that's exactly what AT&T wants. Remember, the whole '2-tier' internet. You can't use the crosswalk unless you pay AT&T. Of course, you could walk 8 blocks out of your way, and maybe get across the street, but AT&T has decided that you need to pay an AT&T 'crosswalk' tax to use 'their' crosswalk.

AT&T wants to install all these crosswalks, but they don't want to do it in a way that benefits the citizens. AT&T is allowed to put in a crosswalk, but it's using the towns streets to do it. And it's the citizens of the town that use the sidewalks, that may or may not use the crosswalk. The town has said "yes, you can put in a crosswalk, but no, you can't make all the laws involving that crosswalk, because we the citizens will determine whats the best public interest use of that crosswalk. It's not to say you can't make money with the crosswalk, it IS to say that you will live by the rules we make when 'operating' that crosswalk'.
--
Flabby? pastey-skinned? riddled with phlebitis? Then you've got a good Republican body! So compare your lives to mine, and then kill yourself.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15920438 Tue, 18 Apr 2006 11:21:10 EDT Re: Idiots http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15920433 Talis : That's what is most galling to me - and maybe the government of Geneva - about this whole story. AT&T goes out of their way to denigrate their fiber project then several years later come in and install the very same fiber they said was totally unnecessary. Talk about two-faced. This makes me wonder why anyone believes a thing AT&T says.

Personally I think the city of Geneva should use the same tactics AT&T did and accuse them of providing porn to the neighborhood. I wonder how long it would be before AT&T sued.

I have no respect for corporations that treat people with such contempt and disregard.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15920433 Tue, 18 Apr 2006 11:20:32 EDT Re: Idiots http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15920328 marigolds :
said by Cod See Profile :

said by claudeo See Profile :

How do you figure "at no costs to its citizens"? Any use of public right of way (over, under or through it) has a cost to the citizens.
What exactly is that cost? Not disputing your claim, but perhaps you could elaborate.
Well, for one, since this is Illinois the city will be required to map out and digitize the location of all the fiber with no reimbursement (depends on the size of the city, but easily a six figure cost with about $20k/year recurring costs depending on how often AT&T adds infrastructure).
Also, the city will be required to provide (normally through a contractor) locating services on that fiber and be liable for any cuts from bad locates.
Lastly, the ROW that AT&T uses will not be available for other services and if the city wishes to place any services into that ROW (such as sewer and water upgrades) they will have to pay AT&T for that access.
--
ISCABBS - the oldest and largest BBS on the Internet
telnet://whip.isca.uiowa.edu
Professional Geographer
Geographic Information Science researcher]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15920328 Tue, 18 Apr 2006 11:03:30 EDT Re: Idiots http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15920305 L Supreme : That video was priceless. "What can you do with 20mbs?its like a race car with no track" lol. Their tune sure changed.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15920305 Tue, 18 Apr 2006 11:00:08 EDT Re: Idiots http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15920245 garagerock :
said by pnh102 See Profile :

First this town wants to impose the costs of deploying a broadband network on its citizens. Now it wants to stop a private company from deploying such a network at no cost to its citizens. What is wrong with these people?
quote:
Geneva, Illinois was at the center of a debate over municipal broadband, when AT&T (then SBC) ran an expensive PR campaign to turn public opinion against two local plans to offer fiber and IPTV service (once with taxpayer funds, once without)


Obviously, the local gov't/voters (or at least a portion of them) disagree with that assumption. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15920245 Tue, 18 Apr 2006 10:47:53 EDT Re: Idiots http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15920241 pnh102 :
said by claudeo See Profile :

How do you figure "at no costs to its citizens"? Any use of public right of way (over, under or through it) has a cost to the citizens.
Say AT&T deploys this service in your area but you decide you don't want to use it. Does AT&T send you a bill? Of course not.

As for using the right of way costing people money, if we followed your example, every time I crossed the sidewalk I should have to pay a tax. When any company comes and tears up a street to do any kind of work, its that company that has to pay to fix it, not the government.
--
Rove / Rumsfeld 2008!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15920241 Tue, 18 Apr 2006 10:47:28 EDT Re: Idiots http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15920225 Cod :
said by claudeo See Profile :

How do you figure "at no costs to its citizens"? Any use of public right of way (over, under or through it) has a cost to the citizens.
What exactly is that cost? Not disputing your claim, but perhaps you could elaborate.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15920225 Tue, 18 Apr 2006 10:45:11 EDT Re: Idiots http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15920193 claudeo :
said by pnh102 See Profile :

First this town wants to impose the costs of deploying a broadband network on its citizens. Now it wants to stop a private company from deploying such a network at no cost to its citizens. What is wrong with these people?
How do you figure "at no costs to its citizens"? Any use of public right of way (over, under or through it) has a cost to the citizens.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15920193 Tue, 18 Apr 2006 10:39:23 EDT Idiots http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15920172 pnh102 : First this town wants to impose the costs of deploying a broadband network on its citizens. Now it wants to stop a private company from deploying such a network at no cost to its citizens. What is wrong with these people?
--
Rove / Rumsfeld 2008!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15920172 Tue, 18 Apr 2006 10:35:49 EDT