Whole House Surge Protector? in Electronics

Whole House Surge Protector? in Electronics http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r16590828 en Sat, 28 Nov 2009 16:47:00 EDT Sat, 28 Nov 2009 16:47:00 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16783073 Splitpair :

said by ArthurS

:

Be aware that the price of copper has skyrocketed recently, so heavy gauge wire that I would prefer in an isolation ground system can be rather expensive (I just had a church client flip out when they got quotes from a few electricians)!

No kidding #2 stranded THHN 4kf almost $10 grand.

Wayne
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16783073 Sat, 26 Aug 2006 10:17:27 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16774807 nonymous : No new subdivisions I know of in Phoenix has lightning protection even thou Arizona has alot of lightning. So no builder demand no electricians caring. Special jobs as cell sites etc. of course and more money. Little homeowner well ???]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16774807 Thu, 24 Aug 2006 23:03:59 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16774745 nonymous : ok.I know telephone more than power. But the builders in Phoenix hire electricians to do all. The phone well is sometimes bad on a certain crew by crew basis. If phone is bad the electric must be much worse.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16774745 Thu, 24 Aug 2006 22:55:41 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16754810 signmeuptoo : Thanks. I don't own a house but this is stuff I never learned, I worked for an electrician and we did residential, but he wasn't a genius, let's put it that way...
--
Let's be nice to each other, k? Life's too short.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16754810 Tue, 22 Aug 2006 04:53:49 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16754766 ArthurS :

said by signmeuptoo

:

In that zip file, the annotation to the diagram, item #9:

A question, they are talking about a three phase system there, right? So that bond/run #9 is to the Neutral Bus with the connection to the service feed? If so, then #9 doesn't apply to us in residences, right? Or does it, because I am wondering how dangerous it might be to misinterpret that and use the house neutral that way...

Also, in the image you posted: I assume, as I don't know ANYTHING about Commerical electrical installations, that the reason that is called an "isolation" is becuase you are saying the the ground bus is in a totally separate compartment with the bus in it, instead of in the distribution panel? If so, you are saying that we want to get our own little box with a ground bus and make it a secondary isolated ground bus box? I am a bit unclear on what you are saying, I apologize for being so dense!

No apologies necessary! ;) The diagram I posted earlier is just a tiny detail of a much larger drawing set that is my specification for isolation ground and technical power system specifically designed for professional A/V systems that are a part of my consulting practice (think performing arts theatre, large church, concert hall, sports stadium). That said, it's assuming a commercial installation, where typically a shielded isolation transformer is being used to provide a separate technical power service complete with sequencing panel and isolation ground.

I think part of the confusion here is that whenever you put a transformer for a sub panel into the equation (common in large commercial buildings), electrical code requires that your ground (both building and isolation ground) and neutral be bonded together at this point (at the transformer), then run separate conductors to the breaker (sub) panel. Your transformer in residential applications is found on the street either on a pole or in an underground vault! So depending on how things are wired up in your panel, you might have your electrical wiring coming into your house from the electrical provider, with a separate ground tied to your water pipe or separate grounding rod, with neutral and ground being bonded together according to code.

That said I have a number of smaller installations where I have the electrician install an additional isolation ground buss bar within an existing electrical service panel, no extra compartment needed! The isolation of the isolation ground buss bar is achieved through insulative bushings between it and the panel/box it's physically mounted to (to keep it from shorting the isolation ground to the building ground at this point). The key here is that you don't want your isolation ground buss bar to short to building ground at the breaker panel, you *only* want it to be bonded to building ground (and ultimately neutral) either at the transformer (in commercial installations) or at the main service entrance grounding conductor. (Read this last sentence over and over until you have it memorized!)

The breaker panel of which I attached a link to has the isolation ground buss bar in a separate enclosure (the case of which is bonded electrically to the main breaker panel case). The primary goal here is to make sure some meathead electrician doesn't mix up the grounds, and help keep things separate, neat and tidy. There is no reason why this isolation ground buss bar can't be inside the main breaker panel (or a household breaker panel) if properly installed and maintained (make sure it's insulated from the panel itself). A very heavy gauge insulated grounding conductor should be run directly from your breaker panel isolation ground bus bar and bonded to your grounding point at your service entrance. You should have the electrician make sure you have a really good grounding point at the service entrance, and not just some cheapo wire clamped to your water pipe!

said by signmeuptoo

:

Could you create a schematic or graphic, please?

Edit:

So after all is said and done, these are the devices that are most advisable for a home owner to install:(?)

»https://currenttechnology.com/product.xh···entGuard

Thanks.

If I had more time, I might be able to draw something (the drawing I posted was a simple copy and paste I did in a matter of seconds), but alas, I'm up to my eyeballs with work and a kitchen renovation this week (I promised my wife a working sink by the end of the week)! :D I hope with the information I provided, you can have a licensed electrician put together an isolation ground system for a residential application that meets local codes and keeps the inspector happy. Just make sure he/she knows and understands NEC 250-75 really well.

Be aware that the price of copper has skyrocketed recently, so heavy gauge wire that I would prefer in an isolation ground system can be rather expensive (I just had a church client flip out when they got quotes from a few electricians)!

The whole house solution from current technology seems to offer good protection.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16754766 Tue, 22 Aug 2006 04:16:58 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16748520 whizkid3 :

quote:
because the safety ground and neutral wires were bonded at the outlet...

This is a verybad idea. The safety ground and neutral are never to be bonded (connected together) at the outlet. They are only supposed to be bonded together at one place, the enclosure containing main disconnect switch/circuit breaker, where the grounding electrode system is also connected.

Having them connected at the outlet is a fire and an electrocution hazzard.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16748520 Mon, 21 Aug 2006 07:49:41 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16747974 signmeuptoo :

said by ArthurS

:

Hmmm, I would have to do a lot of digging to find pictures of completed system, but here is a great pic of a sequencing technical power panel with a separate isolation ground compartment (on the right side). For my systems I always go with a single phase three wire panel instead of the three phase panel shown.

Attached you will find a detail from my technical power drawing set showing what's involved in wiring an isolation ground receptacle.

In that zip file, the annotation to the diagram, item #9:

A question, they are talking about a three phase system there, right? So that bond/run #9 is to the Neutral Bus with the connection to the service feed? If so, then #9 doesn't apply to us in residences, right? Or does it, because I am wondering how dangerous it might be to misinterpret that and use the house neutral that way...

Also, in the image you posted: I assume, as I don't know ANYTHING about Commerical electrical installations, that the reason that is called an "isolation" is becuase you are saying the the ground bus is in a totally separate compartment with the bus in it, instead of in the distribution panel? If so, you are saying that we want to get our own little box with a ground bus and make it a secondary isolated ground bus box? I am a bit unclear on what you are saying, I apologize for being so dense!

Could you create a schematic or graphic, please?

Edit:

So after all is said and done, these are the devices that are most advisable for a home owner to install:(?)

»https://currenttechnology.com/product.xh···entGuard

Thanks.
--
Let's be nice to each other, k? Life's too short.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16747974 Mon, 21 Aug 2006 02:15:37 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16747908 whizkid3 :

quote:
How does it work with a sub panel? Do you still have to run the isolated ground back to the main panel even though the circuit breaker is in a sub panel?

Yes. You must have a separate isolated ground bus in each sub-panel, insulated from contact with the metal panel. The isolated ground system is kept isolated except at the point where the main building grounding electrode system (your ground rods, etc) is bonded to the equipment safety ground system.

quote:
If you only have a main panel and no sub panels, can you just bond the isolated grounds to the regular ground & neutral bus? Wouldn't it be the same as having a separate one right next to it and bonding both buses?

No, you can not. You must have a separate isolated ground bus bar. Is it the same? No, not exactly.

Of course, as Arthur S. described, things are different when you have a separately derrived source (i.e. the case of the isolation transformer he discussed is one example.)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16747908 Mon, 21 Aug 2006 01:50:13 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16747446 steve1515 : Ground (isolated or not) and neutral should never be bonded at the outlet. I don't think those inspectors know what they're doing.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16747446 Sun, 20 Aug 2006 23:50:00 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16747321 91439306 : And how! This last point is absolutely true and I had a very effective demonstration of it when I converted my sound system racks' electrical system over to 240 split phase. For kicks, I tried it with the existing 3-wire cable, but because the safety ground and neutral wires were bonded at the outlet, the system produced a very loud 60Hz hum when powered on.
Upon running a new 4-wire cable across the studio auditorium to the breaker panel, and isolating the grounds from eachother, the hum was vanquished. I wish I could have had the foresite to videotape that effect and include it in an expert opinion before a court, or before some of these building inspectors who insist on bonding at the outlets...
--
Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

My Kurzweil Music at: '»www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm

'»www.basspig.com Bass Pig's Lair

'»www.mwcomms.com

'»www.adventuresinanimemusic.com Stereo Feed!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16747321 Sun, 20 Aug 2006 23:27:52 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16743734 ArthurS :

said by steve1515

:

I see.

So, how do these breakers know that you turned on the mixer so that they can turn on the amps.

It doesn't know anything about the operation of the system, it simply provides an elegant solution for AC power and power sequencing. In the control booth you have one of these remote control switches to turn the system on or off, which is manually controlled by the operator. It even has a key switch to prevent the custodians from cranking the system late at night! ;)

said by steve1515

:

I was looking at that panel in the picture and it looks like there are many breakers/circuits available, but there are very few terminals for neutral connections. Strange. Maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way.

It is a standard Square D load centre, they added on the low voltage control compartment and the isolation ground compartment, but have not subtracted anything from the load centre itself (it has to meet code requirements). I have never received any complaints from electricians that they were short on neutral buss bar space.

said by steve1515

:

A few more questions about the isolated ground stuff...
How does it work with a sub panel? Do you still have to run the isolated ground back to the main panel even though the circuit breaker is in a sub panel?

The isolation ground systems I design follow a star topology with sub panels, so from the *main* system isolation ground buss bar, a very heavy gauge copper wire is run to the sub panel isolation ground buss bar, and from there isolation ground is routed to receptacles serviced by the sub panel. It all comes down to keeping wire resistance as low as possible.

said by steve1515

:

If you only have a main panel and no sub panels, can you just bond the isolated grounds to the regular ground & neutral bus? Wouldn't it be the same as having a separate one right next to it and bonding both buses?

Ultimately the isolation ground must be bonded to the neutral and building ground at *one* point, and one point only. On smaller systems, this may be the main grounding rod(s) for the entire building, on larger systems serviced by an isolation transformer, the isolation ground gets bonded to the neutral and ground at the transformer. One way or another, isolation ground must meet neutral and regular ground, but the key here is it must meet it at one point only, and that the wire resistance is as low as possible to keep the ground plane low and noise to an absolute minimum.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16743734 Sun, 20 Aug 2006 11:15:13 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16742376 steve1515 : I see.

So, how do these breakers know that you turned on the mixer so that they can turn on the amps.

I was looking at that panel in the picture and it looks like there are many breakers/circuits available, but there are very few terminals for neutral connections. Strange. Maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way.

A few more questions about the isolated ground stuff...
How does it work with a sub panel? Do you still have to run the isolated ground back to the main panel even though the circuit breaker is in a sub panel?

If you only have a main panel and no sub panels, can you just bond the isolated grounds to the regular ground & neutral bus? Wouldn't it be the same as having a separate one right next to it and bonding both buses?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16742376 Sun, 20 Aug 2006 01:17:40 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16742294 ArthurS :

said by steve1515

:

Cool pictures!

I have a few questions...

So when installing isolated ground receptacles, each one must have a separate ground that goes back to the panel? Or, can you connect the isolated ground from one plug to the isolated ground of the next outlet down the line as long as you don't bond it to the regular ground?

Each receptacle should have it's own separate isolation ground conductor that goes back to the panel, however if two immediately adjacent receptacles are sharing the same circuit, it is acceptable in some cases to "daisy-chain" the isolation ground conductor to another isolation ground receptacle as long as the electrician is careful to preserve the integrity of the isolation ground.

said by steve1515

:

In the diagram, you're using the the metallic conduit as a regular ground. Can you just use regular cable and add a fourth wire for the regular ground instead? What about using plastic boxes and leaving out the fourth regular ground wire?

Yes to both cases, and in the case of a separate non-insulated ground conductor bonded to the metal back box, it provides an extra layer of protection, and may appease the demands of an electrical inspector. I prefer the use of EMT conduit and metal boxes over plastic ones since the layer of metal helps with shielding.

said by steve1515

:

What's a sequencing panel? I've never seen one before. It looks like the breakers are outputting low voltage, but without a transformer. How do these things panels work?

Sequencing panels are a very unique product, I use them to turn my professional audio systems on and off in a certain sequence to prevent any loud "bangs" that may ruin the loudspeakers. Mixer on first, amps on last, amps off first, mixer off last. The breakers in this panel are motorized, using a low voltage relay system (the circuit boards on the left compartment) to turn on/off each individual AC circuit breaker. Other than the "special" breakers, this is an ordinary Square-D panel with two separate side boxes attached, in fact there may be a bunch of circuits within this panel that remain on at all times, and are not part of a sequenced on/off. There are some fancy added features, including an immediate shut down when a fire alarm is activated, or a properly sequenced system turn on should power be restored after an electrical outage. You can "daisy chain" these sequencing panels with other similar panels, and remotely control them as well.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16742294 Sun, 20 Aug 2006 00:52:45 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16742190 ArthurS :

said by SparkChaser

:

The purpose of this kind of system is to keep any building noise on the ground system isolated from the ground on your equipment, is that the idea?

Thanks for the education :)

Yes, that's one reason, the other is to keep all grounds at the same plane, ideally as close to the main building ground as possible. Careful management of the resistance of the ground conductor must be followed, which is why on very sensitive systems you will find a very large wire gauge (00 gauge) being used between the main isolation ground buss bar and the main grounding point. On longer runs I will insist on a large gauge wire to the receptacle.

Having all your electronic equipment on the same ground plane (consider that most electronic equipment has it's chassis connected to ground) helps keep noise potential on interconnecting wiring to a minimum. This particularly holds true with professional audio and video equipment, where ground loops can be troublesome if equipment chassis are at different ground potentials.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16742190 Sun, 20 Aug 2006 00:27:08 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16739086 whizkid3 :

quote:
Well it is the same exact device Florida Power & Light is leasing to their subscribers for $8.95 per month. I got the link and model off the side of the one my next door neighbor installed.

So? Sounds like they are making a fortune. Obviously, FP&L requires only a 10KAIC rating. Still not a very good SPD for service entrance, regardless of who is selling or leasing them.

said by steve1515

:

So when installing isolated ground receptacles, each one must have a separate ground that goes back to the panel?

Yes. Its the best way to do it, rather than daisy chaining the ckts together. You can also 'home run' the isolated grounds.

quote:
Or, can you connect the isolated ground from one plug to the isolated ground of the next outlet down the line as long as you don't bond it to the regular ground?

Yes, not the best, though.

quote:
In the diagram, you're using the the metallic conduit as a regular ground. Can you just use regular cable and add a fourth wire for the regular ground instead?

Yes. You'll have to have a green wire, and a green with yellow stripe wire. (Or you can tag one of the green wires at every box with a yellow stripe.)

quote:
What about using plastic boxes and leaving out the fourth regular ground wire?

Its not unlawful. But you will lose any of the big advantages of noise reduction from having the isolated ground inside of a grounded conduit (shield).

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16739086 Sat, 19 Aug 2006 13:10:17 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16739016 steve1515 : Cool pictures!

I have a few questions...

So when installing isolated ground receptacles, each one must have a separate ground that goes back to the panel? Or, can you connect the isolated ground from one plug to the isolated ground of the next outlet down the line as long as you don't bond it to the regular ground?

In the diagram, you're using the the metallic conduit as a regular ground. Can you just use regular cable and add a fourth wire for the regular ground instead? What about using plastic boxes and leaving out the fourth regular ground wire?

What's a sequencing panel? I've never seen one before. It looks like the breakers are outputting low voltage, but without a transformer. How do these things panels work?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16739016 Sat, 19 Aug 2006 12:54:35 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16738385 Splitpair :

said by whizkid3

:

The meter-pan SPD in your link is not UL listed as a 'primary protector', but rather is listed as a 'secondary protector'. Thus it doesn't even meet the UL requirements for protecting your service entrance, although that is what the mfr wants you to think.

Well it is the same exact device Florida Power & Light is leasing to their subscribers for $8.95 per month. I got the link and model off the side of the one my next door neighbor installed.

Wayne
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16738385 Sat, 19 Aug 2006 10:31:19 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16738334 Splitpair :

said by ArthurS

:

I have a spendy AC circuit tester that plugs into a isolation ground receptacle, I sometimes catch a few "short cuts" that a few electricians have taken in wiring up isolation ground receptacles,

Isolated ground receptacles grrrrrrrr.

If I had a buck for every time I caught a cub electrician bonding the isolated ground to the metallic box I would buy you all a round.

But what really pisses off the Good Humor Man is when the electrical inspector red tags the work for not being bonded.

Then you have two options go before the BRA and have the inspector over-ruled (maybe a 30 day process) or get the permit signed off and rip out the bonds now that's profitable.

P.S. It's rumored that in Miami-Dade County they have the best inspectors money can buy so that sort of adds a third option.

»www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/ne···0702.htm

Wayne
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16738334 Sat, 19 Aug 2006 10:19:25 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16738158 whizkid3 : IMHO, Current Technology makes the best SPDs on the market. You can tell simply by their specs. I have been to a few technical presentations by them on SPDs. They have perhaps the best SPD testing lab in the country, and love to blow these things up. In the process, they have learned how to build the best.

Don't know the ansers to your questions, though.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16738158 Sat, 19 Aug 2006 09:29:16 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16737770 SparkChaser :

said by whizkid3

:

Square-D and Current Technology make very good whole-house SPDs:
Square-D

Current Technology

Wow a selenium stack! I haven't seen those in a lot of years :D Do you know how Current Technology is using it? I couldn't find anything on the site. Also, I wonder if their filtering affects line signaling devices like X10.

Interesting link.
--
My computer has more memory than I do!

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16737770 Sat, 19 Aug 2006 05:54:14 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16737737 SparkChaser :

said by ArthurS

:

More to it than that. You need an isolated ground receptacle as well as an insulated grounding conductor.

Doh! I forgot about the receptical. I didn't even know they made them :( good explaination and pics.

The purpose of this kind of system is to keep any building noise on the ground system isolated from the ground on your equipment, is that the idea?

Thanks for the education :)
--
My computer has more memory than I do!

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16737737 Sat, 19 Aug 2006 05:18:09 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16736925 ArthurS : Hmmm, I would have to do a lot of digging to find pictures of completed system, but here is a great pic of a sequencing technical power panel with a separate isolation ground compartment (on the right side). For my systems I always go with a single phase three wire panel instead of the three phase panel shown.

Attached you will find a detail from my technical power drawing set showing what's involved in wiring an isolation ground receptacle.

IsolationGnd···cept.zip 296,025 bytes
(IsolationGndRecept.pdf)

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16736925 Sat, 19 Aug 2006 00:08:33 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16736815 steve1515 :

said by ArthurS

said by SparkChaser

:

Terms check :) by isolated ground, do you mean a single (undisturbed) ground from the outlet to the panel?

More to it than that. You need an isolated ground receptacle as well as an insulated grounding conductor. This separate, insulated ground conductor is run with the hot and neutral to the receptacle and connected directly to the isolation ground terminal. The wallbox that houses this isolated ground receptacle still needs to be bonded to building ground, but is kept separate from the ground terminal on the isolated ground receptacle. Inside the breaker subpanel you will typically find a separate isolation ground bus bar (might be in a separate compartment) that is insulated/isolated from the panel case, with a grounding conductor that bonds it to the main ground for your electrical service.

In essence, your isolation ground provides a insulated, direct path from the receptacle isolation ground terminal to the main ground of your electrical service. With the technical power systems I design for professional audio, I have very specific requirements on the wire resistance/ ground conductor size to minimize noise in the system, and I require the electrical contractor to test the integrity of the main building ground. I have a spendy AC circuit tester that plugs into a isolation ground receptacle, I sometimes catch a few "short cuts" that a few electricians have taken in wiring up isolation ground receptacles, all it takes is one inadvertent short to building ground (other than the connection made at the main electrical service), or a mis-wired junction to bring the integrity of an entire isolation ground system down the toilet!

Can you get pics of the isolated ground installations? I'd like to see this stuff.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16736815 Fri, 18 Aug 2006 23:44:28 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16736650 ArthurS :

said by SparkChaser

:

Terms check :) by isolated ground, do you mean a single (undisturbed) ground from the outlet to the panel?

quote:
So, you are saying that this is not a series device?

Don't think so, other than fuses if it has them, but I don't believe it does.

Like all other surge protectors I've seen, its goal is to 'shunt' transients to ground; hence the ground wire.

The meter-pan SPD in your link is not UL listed as a 'primary protector', but rather is listed as a 'secondary protector'. Thus it doesn't even meet the UL requirements for protecting your service entrance, although that is what the mfr wants you to think. Perhaps there is not enough room in the socket for the heavy-duty components necessary for primary protection rated equipment.

The meter pan SPD is only rated at 10kAIC short circuit current, which will violate utility company requirements if they require 20kAIC (Which could be disastrous should you have a short circuit between the meter pan and your main circuit breaker).

Better suggestion - get a 'whole house' surge protection device that attaches to a two-pole circuit breaker in your main panel board, and is rated as a 'primary protector', and thus is beefy enough to really protect your system. Square 'D' and Current Technologies make good one. And make sure your electrician keeps the wires between the panel board and the device as short as possible, ideally the length of the leads that come with the device (this is very important). Believe it or not, the gauge is not as important. Use a #6 minimum ground wire.

Square-D and Current Technology make very good whole-house SPDs:

Square-D

Current Technology]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16735820 Fri, 18 Aug 2006 20:55:31 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16730983 SparkChaser :

said by whizkid3

:

- installation of isolated ground circuits for computer and other sensitive equipment. (Proper installation. Unfortunately, from what I have seen, it is the rare electrician that understands proper installation of isolated grounding. To do so right, may require details from a qualified engineer.)

Terms check :) by isolated ground, do you mean a single (undisturbed) ground from the outlet to the panel?
--
My computer has more memory than I do!

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16730983 Fri, 18 Aug 2006 05:48:42 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16730403 signmeuptoo : Ah.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16730403 Fri, 18 Aug 2006 01:03:46 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16730388 ArthurS :

said by signmeuptoo

:

So, you are saying that this is not a series device?

That is correct, it is not a series type device. Read the spec sheet carefully, especially under "Circuit Type."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16730388 Fri, 18 Aug 2006 00:58:45 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16729052 signmeuptoo : So, you are saying that this is not a series device?

»www.efinet.com/index.php?mode=pr···ly_id=36

I thought it was from the conversation here.
--
Let's be nice to each other, k? Life's too short.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16729052 Thu, 17 Aug 2006 21:06:54 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16728845 whizkid3 :

said by signmeuptoo

:

see now that a series solution that attaches in series with a house meter exists, and is very desirable. Wouldn't it be good to have an additional line of defense such as the intermatic some of you posted or the Deltas I posted?

There is nothing (I know of) that attaches in series to your house's electrical distribution system to protect it from transients. Service entrance surge protective equipment (known as 'whole house surge protectors') attach in parallel, and almost universally via a two-pole circuit breaker in the primary distribution panel (circuit breaker panel). And its a very good idea.

quote:
Also, what do you guys think about upgrading a home's grounding, what steps could and should be done to add a layer of improvement in that area.

Making sure its up to code, should be the first step. Assuming this is the case, there are other steps that can be taken if you want to go to the extreme. Some additional ideas to improve grounding and surge protection:

- increase the size, where possible, of grounding conductors.

- increase the size, and quantity of ground rods. (The soil can also be prepared for lower resistivity.) A ground loop can even be put in around the house.

- installation of isolated ground circuits for computer and other sensitive equipment. (Proper installation. Unfortunately, from what I have seen, it is the rare electrician that understands proper installation of isolated grounding. To do so right, may require details from a qualified engineer.)

- Mulitple levels of AC power surge protection. Surge protectors are available that replace standard 15A and 20A receptacles.

- proper installation of primary surge protectors and grounding at low voltage cable (i.e. telephone, cable TV, satellite dish) entrances to the house. Ideally, a metallic entrance plate (I prefer annodized alluminum) with heavy grounding to the house's grounding electrode system. On this will be mounted gas-discharge-tube surge protectors for all coaxial cables, and telco-style lightning protectors for telephone lines and extensions.

- And if it warrants, a professionally designed lightning rod system.

These are all items that are improved a such for data centers, and telco central offices; no reason the same can't be done for a residence.

quote:
Next question: What about telephone line and Cable TV line protection. What products are there that can install at the service entrance for each of them? I know of the delta product for the telco line, but is there anything better? And I don't know of anything for Cable TV/ Dish TV.

Already answered, see above.

quote:
One more question: Isn't it true that it is very bad to have 2 MOVs protectors in series, or something to that effect?

No. In fact proper protection dictates multiple levels of surge protection; at the service entrance, and at the equipment for a household.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16728845 Thu, 17 Aug 2006 20:35:52 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16726731 signmeuptoo : No, I am a disgrace to my college instructors and professors, heh, it has been nearly a decade and a half and I am very rusty on my electronics. I suppose we could dig up some information if others here don't have something to offer. I no longer have my electronics components catalogues, if I did I could look up stuff. And my textbooks are so buried it ain't funny.
--
Let's be nice to each other, k? Life's too short.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16726731 Thu, 17 Aug 2006 16:03:52 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16726673 SparkChaser :

said by signmeuptoo

:

For now on I am going to link people to this thread when they talk about surge protection in other threads, and not just suggest the Delta branded products. This is a very informative thread, one of the best ones EVER at DSLR, but it seems there are questions left hanging here...

I have a question for you since I gave the link for the Delta based on your recommendation :)
Do you know what the difference is between the SOV (silicon oxide varistor and the MOV (metal oxide varistor)? Delta seems to use the SOV in many of their products. There's tons of stuff on the MOV but not much on the SOV. Thanks!
--
My computer has more memory than I do!

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16726673 Thu, 17 Aug 2006 15:56:17 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16724176 signmeuptoo : Guys, I hope it is ok to jump in here again, I have some questions from those of you with more hands on experience and knowledge than me:

I see now that a series solution that attaches in series with a house meter exists, and is very desirable. Wouldn't it be good to have an additional line of defense such as the intermatic some of you posted or the Deltas I posted?

Also, what do you guys think about upgrading a home's grounding, what steps could and should be done to add a layer of improvement in that area.

Next question: What about telephone line and Cable TV line protection. What products are there that can install at the service entrance for each of them? I know of the delta product for the telco line, but is there anything better? And I don't know of anything for Cable TV/ Dish TV.

One more question: Isn't it true that it is very bad to have 2 MOVs protectors in series, or something to that effect? I remember reading that it is bad to have a surge protector of MOV type in series with a UPS because the UPS would be damaged if it is of a certain type. Which types of UPS would be damaged and what other types of surge protectors and UPSs are there, and do you have links explaining the technologies, because it has been many years since I have been exposed to anything on the topic.

Thanks and sorry to pepper you all with so many questions.

For now on I am going to link people to this thread when they talk about surge protection in other threads, and not just suggest the Delta branded products. This is a very informative thread, one of the best ones EVER at DSLR, but it seems there are questions left hanging here...
--
Let's be nice to each other, k? Life's too short.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16724176 Thu, 17 Aug 2006 09:19:54 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16676435 whizkid3 :

quote:
The word surge suppressor is sort of a misnomer (IMO). There is another term used TVS (Transient Voltage Supressor) which is closer to reality.

Just an FYI - the industry is moving away from the former 'TVSS' (transient voltage surge suppressor) terminology, to the more encompassing terminology: SPD (surge protective device). I am not really sure, but this is where things are headed.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16676435 Wed, 09 Aug 2006 19:39:42 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16661847 ArthurS : LOL, you guys are funny! I forgot to include the word "-free" after the word "oxygen" doh! I guess I need more oxygen before I type! :p :D]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16661847 Mon, 07 Aug 2006 17:15:14 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16661184 SparkChaser : I think you have to inhale pure oxygen while you're listening to the music :)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16661184 Mon, 07 Aug 2006 15:49:09 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16660966 jig : i think it's actually oxygen "free" copper they go on about. it actually is a better thermal conductor, though i'm not sure how that would translate into a "better listening experience".

;)
--
A man compounded of law and gospel is able to cheat a whole country with his religion and then destroy them under color of law. -Ben Franklin]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16660966 Mon, 07 Aug 2006 15:21:09 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16659488 ArthurS :

said by electric6 :

MOVs have a voltage clamp rating, but the main rating is the I^2*t surge rating(proportional to energy). Sometime this is specified as actual Joules.
MOVs need a fuse in the power supply to disconnect service when the I^2*t value is exceeded to prevent disintegration of the device. MOVs convert the surge energy into heat.

The common mode current flows into ground, and raises the local ground. For best protection obviously any site should have a low impedance ground.

Any device which is not ground referenced cannot possibly clamp common mode surge voltages common in lightning strike type events.

Any active clamp device using semiconductor devices needs to be much bigger for given I^2*t rating compared to MOVs, because energy is dissipated only in the junction area.

Power quality is not cheap. It is always a trade off between the cost of proper protection, or the cost of downtime and replacing equipment.
MOVs are currently the most cost effective choice for service entrance protection.

The surgeX site somewhat resembles audio "expert" sites where the experts claim to be able to hear oxygen atoms dissolved in copper cables.

Good for you to clarify yourself on the finer points of MOV's (and reiterate some of the weaknesses of MOV based designs), however you still haven't shed any light on what pseudo science or confusion you have found on the Surgex site. Instead I still read insinuation and innuendo from you. Surgex's market focus is very different than what you assume it is.

Surgex is a very well respected brand in the professional AV community, and openly embraced by some of the brightest EE's who vehemently oppose the nonsense spewed by the ultra pure oxygen cable crowd. Even though Surgex may be a bit pricey, they are not the same as "high futility" type power conditioners you see out there that are considerably more expensive than the most expensive Surgex product. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16659488 Mon, 07 Aug 2006 11:58:18 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16658356 SparkChaser :

said by electric6 :

MOVs have a voltage clamp rating, but the main rating is the I^2*t surge rating(proportional to energy).

Thanks for the clarification, the joule integral makes more sense than I^t.

said by electric6 :

MOVs need a fuse in the power supply to disconnect service when the I^2*t value is exceeded to prevent disintegration of the device. MOVs convert the surge energy into heat.

The common mode current flows into ground, and raises the local ground. For best protection obviously any site should have a low impedance ground.

Any device which is not ground referenced cannot possibly clamp common mode surge voltages common in lightning strike type events.

Any active clamp device using semiconductor devices needs to be much bigger for given I^2*t rating compared to MOVs, because energy is dissipated only in the junction area.

Power quality is not cheap. It is always a trade off between the cost of proper protection, or the cost of downtime and replacing equipment. MOVs are currently the most cost effective choice for service entrance protection.

Agreed

said by electric6 :

The surgeX site somewhat resembles audio "expert" sites where the experts claim to be able to hear oxygen atoms dissolved in copper cables.

I don’t own or plan to buy one of their devices so this is just an academic discussion :) . The SurgeX is a series device. It does not use clamping to stop the “spikes”. Therefore the current rating is not the important number but what voltage can it handle before breaking down, they spec 6000 volts. I never did any power work but I do see some “hockey pucks” rated that high.
--
My computer has more memory than I do!

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16658356 Mon, 07 Aug 2006 07:06:05 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16657344 alphapointe : Are those the ones where the inverter runs all the time and the load runs off the battery with the battery being constantly charged with no direct connection between load and line?

I'll have to check into that before I blow up a PA or controller.
--
Resistance is NOT futile...It's voltage divided by current.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16657344 Sun, 06 Aug 2006 23:41:33 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16657328 anon :

I'm considering getting one of those big-ass isolation transformers and putting it in the line between the meter base/disconnect and the inside panel.

The ultraisolation transformer works best with higher frequency noise, not the low frequency surges and sags you probably see.
A more effective solution is to use a full on line UPS rather than the APC cheapos with mechanical relays.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16657328 Sun, 06 Aug 2006 23:37:19 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16657274 anon : MOVs have a voltage clamp rating, but the main rating is the I^2*t surge rating(proportional to energy). Sometime this is specified as actual Joules.
MOVs need a fuse in the power supply to disconnect service when the I^2*t value is exceeded to prevent disintegration of the device. MOVs convert the surge energy into heat.

The common mode current flows into ground, and raises the local ground. For best protection obviously any site should have a low impedance ground.

Any device which is not ground referenced cannot possibly clamp common mode surge voltages common in lightning strike type events.

Any active clamp device using semiconductor devices needs to be much bigger for given I^2*t rating compared to MOVs, because energy is dissipated only in the junction area.

Power quality is not cheap. It is always a trade off between the cost of proper protection, or the cost of downtime and replacing equipment.
MOVs are currently the most cost effective choice for service entrance protection.

The surgeX site somewhat resembles audio "expert" sites where the experts claim to be able to hear oxygen atoms dissolved in copper cables.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16657274 Sun, 06 Aug 2006 23:26:55 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16652950 SparkChaser :

said by electric6 :

Somebody at SurgeX is seriously confused.
The snippets of pseudo science are not very helpful.

I’m not sure what documents you are calling pseudo science. As with any literature, one has to consider the source and any bias. It is after all a business.

said by electric6 :

MOVs do not shunt any surges, but rather clamp voltage and dissipate energy by conducting the surge current. The surge energy is measured in I^t, not voltage. A basic single center tapped phase service surge protector consists of three MOVs, one from each side to ground, and one across the ends. This arrangement clamps differential and common mode voltage. It does not "redirect" surges

Would you define I^t for me, are you trying to say Joules? While energy is definitely dissipated in the MOV, as with all electric circuits, it is 2 wires and if a 500 amp pulse is on the hot phase and goes “through” the MOV it is going to be present on the neutral/ground. This current and ground resistance will cause a voltage.

said by electric6 :

MOV is basically a mesh of diodes which partially short after a big surge. Failure mode is a short. Normally there is a disconnect fuse which disconnects service when the MOV shorts. The fuse limits I^t and prevents vaporizing the MOV by unlimited current.

MOV do definitely fail shorted but they also fail open from overwork. There is an accumulative effect which renders it ineffective. There have been advances since they were introduced 30+ years ago. The original ones used to die rather quickly. (I found out the hard way :D )

The thread seems to have drifted far from the OP's question ;) but interesting dialog as usual.

The Surgex or any series device is certainly good protection. However, the cost ($500+ per box) is prohibitive for typical residential users. The MOV’s type protection is far better than no protection and at a cost of $50-$100 for the whole house, a worthwhile investment IMHO
--
My computer has more memory than I do!

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16652950 Sun, 06 Aug 2006 07:51:17 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16652758 alphapointe : I have a repeater site just outside of town that is plagued by power problems (very long line with no transformers.) I have the meter-socket protector, a whole-house protector in the service panel, and APC UPS's in the rack. All coax cables have protectors on them, obviously. I still get power issues. The UPS's are showing lots of noise and spikes from the power line. I'm considering getting one of those big-ass isolation transformers and putting it in the line between the meter base/disconnect and the inside panel. What do you all think?
--
Resistance is NOT futile...It's voltage divided by current.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16652758 Sun, 06 Aug 2006 05:22:23 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16652382 91439306 : Indeed, location is a huge factor. Even where I live, both of my nearest neighbors suffer catastrophic damage to appliances almost yearly, while we, in 40 years, have had none at all. I'm attributing this to the two transformers on either side of our lot. We're isolated from the neighbors, interestingly enough and are the only home on that short stretch of line.

We have a high water table, even though we're mountaintop, so ground conductivity is pretty good here too, but so do the neighbors. But I've always believed in multiple layers of protection because I have far too much invested in rare, somewhat hard to replace electronics.

One of the issues with solid state transmitters is the fact that PA modules can and do fail with these hits. I had an Energy Onix 300W PA fail at a translator site not long ago, and upon inspection, it was a solder joint that lifted off the airline trace at the output of the PA combiner. I resoldered it and the amp worked fine after that.

Spark Gaps:
gas tubes are another possible aid in this challenge. They are used in some pretty heavy surge suppression applications and are reusable to a great extent.
However, I'd like to have spark gaps at the entrance to the building's utility line, as additional protection in case of a direct hit on the line.
The MOVs we're losing at the station are a rather expensive 3-phase Islatran unit, which was purchased by the station a few years ago and installed by an electrician. While there is a lot of room in the large NEMA box for larger devices, Islatran only makes certain replacements for this unit.

The actual hits seem to come in via power and phone lines. One particular summer, two of three phases burned up on the Islatran protection modules for those phases. Anything that hits the 300' tower, goes staight into the ground, as it's a grounded FM tower. We lose a lot of Burk ARC 16 dialup voice units as well as the 2 wire dedicated modems. We finally added an optical isolator for the phone lines and that's a much less expensive sacrificial lamb.

The station was originally built in 1982 by a couple of fanatical engineers, one who was an Avionics engineer at Sikorsky and they used textbook engineering practices for wiring and grounding. The entire building has copper strapping round the whole structure, tied to a common ground that everything else is tied to. The location is just fraught with power problems. Probably a long run of lines with no transformers nearby to absorb the brunt of the shock.
--
Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

My Kurzweil Music at: '»www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm

'»www.basspig.com Bass Pig's Lair

'»www.mwcomms.com

'»www.adventuresinanimemusic.com Stereo Feed!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16652382 Sun, 06 Aug 2006 01:49:30 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16652102 Splitpair :

said by dervari

:

Seems to be a transmitter site with a 100' steel tower would be more at risk than a residence. :)

Actually while the chances of being hit are greater the chances of damage can be considerably lower due to the proper grounding and bonding that can be found at a properly engineered transmitter site vs. the average home.

»Well Grounded PCS Site.

Wayne
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16652102 Sun, 06 Aug 2006 00:34:12 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16652067 Splitpair :

said by electric6 :

A spark gap is the primary protective device used by utilities. A spark gap will limit direct lightning hit to several kV on the line, which is expected to be clamped by end user equipment.

Spark gaps have a tendency to not self extinguish at distribution voltage levels and above as such MOV's based units are the most popular surge protectors used by utilities.

The actual MOV's used in 7.6/13.2 Kv distribution are round about the size of a hockey puck (3.5" wide x 1.5" high) and are stacked under pressure from a stainless steel spring inside a rather heavy duty ceramic or silicone/fiberglass tube.

Wayne
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16652067 Sun, 06 Aug 2006 00:27:48 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16651161 dervari :

said by 91439306

:

At one of my client radio stations, the transmitter site took multiple hits in July, with thousands in equipment damage. No sooner do we replace the MOV units in the Islatran, then another storm hits that very night and takes out not only the MOVs, but the HV rectifier bank in the Harris transmitter. Multiple hits DO happen,

Where was the actual hit at? Seems to be a transmitter site with a 100' steel tower would be more at risk than a residence. :)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16651161 Sat, 05 Aug 2006 21:22:07 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16650198 ArthurS :

said by electric6 :

Study the principles behind series mode protection, a ground is *not* necessary at the equipment end for proper protection using a series mode device (and can prove to be an advantage in older homes that do not have grounded receptacles)!

Somebody at SurgeX is seriously confused.
The snippets of pseudo science are not very helpful.

MOVs do not shunt any surges, but rather clamp voltage and dissipate energy by conducting the surge current. The surge energy is measured in I^t, not voltage.

A basic single center tapped phase service surge protector consists of three MOVs, one from each side to ground, and one across the ends. This arrangement clamps differential and common mode voltage.
It does not "redirect" surges.

MOV is basically a mesh of diodes which partially short after a big surge. Failure mode is a short. Normally there is a disconnect fuse which disconnects service when the MOV shorts. The fuse limits I^t and prevents vaporizing the MOV by unlimited current.

Exactly what pseudo science are you referring to on the Surgex site? Some of the white papers are written by some of the brightest in the industry, Neil Muncy for one is an independent consultant, is world re-known in the field of technical power, and openly embraces this technology, if there is anyone who would smell a hint of BS, it would be him (and I have known him for many years).

If surge energy is not measured in voltage, then why does IEEE/ANSI C62.41-1991 quantify power protection standards using voltage (and current)?

In one paragraph you say MOV's clamps voltage and dissipates energy, yet the next paragraph you say the arrangement of MOV's clamps differential and common mode voltage, yet it doesn't redirect surges. So where does all that energy go while the MOV remains active in the circuit?

There may be a disconnect fuse on a few surge protector designs, but I also have seen plenty of vapourized MOV's! ;)

Oh, and how about identifying yourself as a regular user and not anon? ;)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16650198 Sat, 05 Aug 2006 17:44:37 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16650067 anon :

Personally, I'd like to see big 'ol spark gaps as a first line of protection, like we have on end fed AM towers.

A spark gap is the primary protective device used by utilities. A spark gap will limit direct lightning hit to several kV on the line, which is expected to be clamped by end user equipment.

If you are frequently loosing MOVs, you need to spec a bigger size.
For best results specify multilayer MOVs, which have a better defined clamp voltage, and can dissipate more energy for the same size compared to std bulk MOVs.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16650067 Sat, 05 Aug 2006 17:10:19 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16650036 anon :

Study the principles behind series mode protection, a ground is *not* necessary at the equipment end for proper protection using a series mode device (and can prove to be an advantage in older homes that do not have grounded receptacles)!

said by 91439306

:

It depends on the location and the utility system in that area. At one of my client radio stations, the transmitter site took multiple hits in July, with thousands in equipment damage.

You hit a good one with location.

I work with a number of sites here in SFL that take direct hits on a regular basis yet we suffer little damage and I believe that is due to the fact that here we work with a rather conductive soil close to the underground water.

While we may be in the lightning capitol of the U.S. we also have one of the best grounding conditions an engineer could ask for.

Multiple hits DO happen, and if you're in an area with a history for this, then you need to be concerned about rapid replacement of your protective devices.

You have that right after getting a e-mail I logged into a system and noticed we lost two mods in a Nautel got kicked out and after logging back in it was three. Zap zap and zap again. Hello Nautel.

Wayne
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16649830 Sat, 05 Aug 2006 16:17:12 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16649825 ArthurS :

said by 91439306

:

My approach is to use a shunt at the mains panel, and series protection on critical devices upon which a large investment exists, or which are critical to business function.

A wise and cost effective plan, though get a shunt at the main panel that has a contact closure to a warning light/buzzer telling you when it needs servicing like the one mentioned above. :)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16649825 Sat, 05 Aug 2006 16:16:02 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16649745 91439306 : I agree that series mode protection is superior to shunt mode, however, the practicality of installing one of these on EVERY power outlet in a home or business needs consideration.
My approach is to use a shunt at the mains panel, and series protection on critical devices upon which a large investment exists, or which are critical to business function.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16649745 Sat, 05 Aug 2006 15:49:24 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16649727 91439306 :

said by dervari

said by 91439306

:

If you have to call the utility company every time it takes a hit, you're not protected for days, and with daily severe thunderstorms, you're at risk.

How many times are you actually going to get a hit that would completely knock it out and require a replacement?

It depends on the location and the utility system in that area. At one of my client radio stations, the transmitter site took multiple hits in July, with thousands in equipment damage. No sooner do we replace the MOV units in the Islatran, then another storm hits that very night and takes out not only the MOVs, but the HV rectifier bank in the Harris transmitter. Multiple hits DO happen, and if you're in an area with a history for this, then you need to be concerned about rapid replacement of your protective devices.
Personally, I'd like to see big 'ol spark gaps as a first line of protection, like we have on end fed AM towers.
--
Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

My Kurzweil Music at: '»www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm

'»www.basspig.com Bass Pig's Lair

'»www.mwcomms.com

'»www.adventuresinanimemusic.com Stereo Feed!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16649727 Sat, 05 Aug 2006 15:46:12 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16649496 ArthurS :

said by Splitpair

said by ArthurS

:

Study the principles behind series mode protection, a ground is *not* necessary at the equipment end for proper protection using a series mode device (and can prove to be an advantage in older homes that do not have grounded receptacles)! ;)

I understand series mode and while it is not the end all of surge protection it can be counted as a piece in the puzzle.

As for not having proper grounding I totally disagree as proper grounding and bonding are key components to a good surge protection system.

For a regular shunt mode surge protector, yes proper grounding and bonding are absolutely crucial, but for series mode it isn't, because the surge is slowly released over the neutral conductor, the ground is completely untouched by the surge (this is not to say that safety grounding of equipment can be avoided):
»www.surgex.com/library/32001.html

said by Splitpair

said by ArthurS

:
More than likely the whole house protector will be out of sight, out of mind, hidden in a closet or basement, only to be seen when a breaker blows on your service panel!

Like the engine under the hood it pays to open it up once in awhile and check to be sure all is ok.

Many units such as the Joslyn I installed on my service entrance have in addition to the LED indicators have relays that can be wired to a remote alarm or indicator very handy for use in an un-attended applications such as remote transmitter sites.

For those in the know checking protection circuits is standard and regular procedure, but for an average user the only time they typically check is when they smell something burning! ;) Funny how UPS's have a buzzer that beeps during power failure, yet most surge protector manufacturer don't have a similar sounding device when it requires replacement. Good to see the Joslyn has a contact closure for this purpose!

said by Splitpair

said by ArthurS

:
Besides this, the ground still gets polluted by this "shunted" surge, thus any other equipment that shares the same ground potential may sustain damage.

Not with proper bonding.

If all equipment plugged directly into the whole-house-surge-protected-breaker-panel (within a a few feet), then yes, your statement regarding bonding is true and applicable. Plug an additional shunt mode surge protector anywhere in the house on a branch circuit far enough away, and now you're dealing with wire resistance to your ground bonding point, hence the potential for elevating the ground plane when a surge is shunted to ground. Add to this any interconnections between equipment, how chassis are grounded between said equipment, and now you have a mess on your hands. Study some of the research that Henry Ott has produced on this.

Furthermore, get a sufficient enough surge happening (lighting strike close by), and all bets are off on how it behaves and what path it finds to ground (path of least resistance). Then again, a direct strike (or one immediately adjacent to house or building) will bypass any protection you have in place (you say power cable, speaker wire, ethernet cable, etc., lightning says "antenna" for thousands of volts of inducted energy)! You are better off just unplugging things! ;)

said by Splitpair

said by ArthurS

:
This reason alone is a significant factor why most surge protector warranty claims are declined by the manufacturers. The moment your computer or TV is hooked up to any other device that has a ground, your warranty becomes invalid according to the manufacturer of the surge protector. Nice loophole to appease the shareholders! :o

I wouldn’t bother with a surge protector equipment warranty they are all fluff and no action.

Wayne

You and I agree definitely on this one! :D]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16649496 Sat, 05 Aug 2006 14:57:23 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16649115 Splitpair :

said by ArthurS

More than likely the whole house protector will be out of sight, out of mind, hidden in a closet or basement, only to be seen when a breaker blows on your service panel!

Besides this, the ground still gets polluted by this "shunted" surge, thus any other equipment that shares the same ground potential may sustain damage.

Not with proper bonding.

This reason alone is a significant factor why most surge protector warranty claims are declined by the manufacturers. The moment your computer or TV is hooked up to any other device that has a ground, your warranty becomes invalid according to the manufacturer of the surge protector. Nice loophole to appease the shareholders! :o

I wouldn’t bother with a surge protector equipment warranty they are all fluff and no action.

Wayne
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16649115 Sat, 05 Aug 2006 13:38:54 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16648380 ArthurS :

said by Splitpair

said by ArthurS

:

Surgex does not have whole house products, particularly because the series mode technology used by Surgex is a feed through protection device, whereas whole house protectors use MOVs in an attempt to shunt surges to ground or neutral.

Ok then that would be excellent at the point of use if proper grounding was available. Still I would want a whole home unit at the service entrance.

Study the principles behind series mode protection, a ground is *not* necessary at the equipment end for proper protection using a series mode device (and can prove to be an advantage in older homes that do not have grounded receptacles)! ;)

said by Splitpair

said by ArthurS

:

whereas whole house protectors use MOVs in an attempt to shunt surges to ground or neutral.

Despite the many flavours of how these devices are constructed, they still depend on destructive technology, of which you spin the roulette wheel hoping that the protected equipment does not sustain damage should you be very close to the end of life of your surge protector and it's unable to clamp down on the surge completely. Apart from the plume of smoke from a humongous "hit", how do you know the condition of your surge protector apart from looking at the indicator lights? More than likely the whole house protector will be out of sight, out of mind, hidden in a closet or basement, only to be seen when a breaker blows on your service panel! The power strip kind sits on the floor under your desk, perhaps hidden from view. IMHO, a false sense of security!

Besides this, the ground still gets polluted by this "shunted" surge, thus any other equipment that shares the same ground potential may sustain damage. This reason alone is a significant factor why most surge protector warranty claims are declined by the manufacturers. The moment your computer or TV is hooked up to any other device that has a ground, your warranty becomes invalid according to the manufacturer of the surge protector. Nice loophole to appease the shareholders! :o]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16648380 Sat, 05 Aug 2006 10:40:54 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16648274 Splitpair :

Ok then that would be excellent at the point of use if proper grounding was available. Still I would want a whole home unit at the service entrance.

said by ArthurS

:

whereas whole house protectors use MOVs in an attempt to shunt surges to ground or neutral.

A number use solid state surge protectors with MOV as a failsafe backup. The solid state unit takes the bulk of the hits and is monitored that is backed by a crowbar which can handle a few cycles and then the MOV’s come into play for the hard crosses to power that sometimes follow a severe hit. By that time the surge protector has done it job it is shot and will indicate such a condition.

Wayne
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16648274 Sat, 05 Aug 2006 10:11:41 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16648176 ArthurS :

said by Splitpair

said by ArthurS

:

As an alternative, you may want to consider using surge protectors that are not MOV based, that use a non-destructive protection technology to keep equipment safe. Expensive yes, but I have yet to find a failed device in the 8 years I have been specifying/using them in mission critical systems, some in areas where electrical storms can be very nasty!

One problem I see is they do not seem to have anything over twenty amps which is not too practical for protecting an entire structures electrical system.

Wayne

Surgex does not have whole house products, particularly because the series mode technology used by Surgex is a feed through protection device, whereas whole house protectors use MOVs in an attempt to shunt surges to ground or neutral. Read Surgex's white papers on the differences, they're huge (particularly the one written by Neil Muncy, a world reknown authority on technical power). Besides the big problem of MOV's being a component that loses it's effectiveness after sustaining enough surges, note that shunt based protection puts the surge on the ground and/or neutral conductors, potentially providing another path for the surge to enter equipment and causing damage!

While everyone is entitled to their opinions on the validity of one approach vs another approach, I personally favour series mode protection, furthermore it is my belief that protection at the equipment end is a better albeit more expensive approach than the "12 gauge shotgun" approach of a whole house surge protector. Just another point of view to muddy the waters here! :D]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16648176 Sat, 05 Aug 2006 09:42:53 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16648145 SparkChaser : They say they want the equipment close to the protected device.

I think another reason is that if you are trying to do this series mode protection on a 200A service you'll need some "industrial strength" semiconductors and inductors ;)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16648145 Sat, 05 Aug 2006 09:34:05 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16648061 Splitpair :

said by ArthurS

One problem I see is they do not seem to have anything over twenty amps which is not too practical for protecting an entire structures electrical system.

Wayne
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16648061 Sat, 05 Aug 2006 09:07:06 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16648048 Splitpair :

said by dervari

:

How many times are you actually going to get a hit that would completely knock it out and require a replacement?

My guess is if it took a hit that bad the utility company will be showing up anyhow to replace some of their equipment. Anyhow worst case would be open the main cut the meter seal pull the surge protector replace the meter and power back up. Then have the utility reseal the meter and maybe have a new surge protector there waiting on them.

Wayne

--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16648048 Sat, 05 Aug 2006 09:02:19 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16647947 dervari :

said by 91439306

:

If you have to call the utility company every time it takes a hit, you're not protected for days, and with daily severe thunderstorms, you're at risk.

How many times are you actually going to get a hit that would completely knock it out and require a replacement?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16647947 Sat, 05 Aug 2006 08:26:28 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16637788 91439306 : I think that quite a few major disadvantages of the meter socket arrestor have been brought up here and are as I thought. If you have to call the utility company every time it takes a hit, you're not protected for days, and with daily severe thunderstorms, you're at risk.
The user replaceable version that ties to the panel at least can be maintained regularly.
While a motor generator combo offers isolation, it is also costly to operate and noisy.
--
Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

My Kurzweil Music at: '»www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm

'»www.basspig.com Bass Pig's Lair

'»www.mwcomms.com

'»www.adventuresinanimemusic.com Stereo Feed!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16637788 Thu, 03 Aug 2006 17:34:08 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16636551 anon : I should clarify that the above reply is in the context of needing to replace the under meter surge protector if fried by a transformer outage]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16636551 Thu, 03 Aug 2006 14:42:15 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16636472 jig : the service still works when the meter socket protection is burned out? so really you're just waiting to get protected again, not to get power back, right?
--
A man compounded of law and gospel is able to cheat a whole country with his religion and then destroy them under color of law. -Ben Franklin]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16636472 Thu, 03 Aug 2006 14:27:40 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16636292 anon : The meter socket version is the most effective and simplest to use. It can be installed or replaced by a complete idiot in seconds.
The only drawback is the truck roll by the utility to replace the meter seal.

If many neighborhood transformers takes a hit, as it does when there is a heatwave, getting a truck roll could take many days. It would be a different truck roll than the transformer replacement crew too. If one breaks the seal out of desperation, that could cause billing disputes with the utility.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16636292 Thu, 03 Aug 2006 14:02:51 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16634272 dervari :

said by Splitpair

:

Use the correct product and you should have no problem.

»www.efinet.com/index.php?mode=pr···ly_id=36

Wayne

I called Georgia Power and they said they would have no problems with me having this device installed. I would just have to arrange a time for one of their people to come out and pull the breaker on the pole and unseal the meter. I have a shooting buddy that's a licensed electrician and he said it would take about 10 minutes to install. I did find somewhere that sells them to consumers for $179 with a 7 day lead time for orders.

»www.omnicontrols.com/lists/Efi-H···VSS.html

I'm going to be ordering one when I get back in-town. :)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16634272 Thu, 03 Aug 2006 07:48:06 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16618513 jig : hmm.well, the best surge protection ever, and best noise reduction system, is to have 1 motor and 1 generator per phase and a really heavy yet very well balanced and bearing'd flywheel in-between. some mechanical replacement parts over time, and you might lose a motor now and again, but nothing bad from the power company ever gets through.

anyway. to be clear, when these surge protectors go, they short to ground in a way that pops the circuit breaker they are associated with, including if they are tied to the house breaker?
--
A man compounded of law and gospel is able to cheat a whole country with his religion and then destroy them under color of law. -Ben Franklin]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16618513 Tue, 01 Aug 2006 01:08:31 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16617998 91439306 : Very good advice about the MOV-based protectors, however, the Surge-X products are not 'whole house' arrestors, so they don't really fit into the scheme of things here. Although they are an excellent choice for downline protection of critical pieces of equipment, or perhaps to protect a branch circuit. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16617998 Mon, 31 Jul 2006 23:28:42 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16615940 Splitpair :

said by 91439306

:

I still haven't found out how the meter-mounted surge arrestor indicates it's functional condition. If it takes a big enough hit and is no longer functional, by what means does the owner determine whether it's replacement time?

»www.efinet.com/pdfs/wi_hg.pdf

I would say by this it does

Wayne
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16615940 Mon, 31 Jul 2006 19:06:13 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16615880 Relkin : Our utility company here offers a whole house surge protection service. It covers cable, phone, and electric. For the electric they use one of the meter mounted units and it had two red leds on the bottom of the unit to indicate it was functional.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16615880 Mon, 31 Jul 2006 18:57:41 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16615850 ArthurS :

said by 91439306

I think this is an issue with any MOV based surge protector, whether or not it has LED indicator lights showing the protection circuit is working or not. The problem lies with the fact that the damage that occurs inside an MOV is *accumulative*, so depending on how much/many surge events the MOV has been hit with, you may be on the last legs of what the surge protector can perform, so perhaps the last hit (even a small one) can cause damage to the equipment it is supposed to protect! No LED indicator I know of will tell you that the MOV is almost at the end of it's life and that you're at greater risk.

The moral of the story, if you're using MOV based surge protectors to protect your house/equipment, replace them with some frequency (perhaps every few years), the 10 year old surge protector you have kicing around may very well be just an expensive power strip as far as a surge is concerned! ;)

As an alternative, you may want to consider using surge protectors that are not MOV based, that use a non-destructive protection technology to keep equipment safe. Expensive yes, but I have yet to find a failed device in the 8 years I have been specifying/using them in mission critical systems, some in areas where electrical storms can be very nasty!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16615850 Mon, 31 Jul 2006 18:53:13 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16615705 anon : A meter mount arrestor where you pull the meter is not a homeowner install. The meter has no fusing so well an error and it will just sit there frying.
Setting and replacing a meter is not rocket science yet an untrained homeowner should not do this.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16615705 Mon, 31 Jul 2006 18:31:44 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16615510 91439306 : I still haven't found out how the meter-mounted surge arrestor indicates it's functional condition. If it takes a big enough hit and is no longer functional, by what means does the owner determine whether it's replacement time?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16615510 Mon, 31 Jul 2006 18:04:03 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16614982 signmeuptoo : Yuppers, MUCH more expensive to install, as a homeowner can actually install the ones I pointed out. I didn't know that the type you are talking about were available for residences. Do you have models and weblinks, by any chance?

Thanks.
--
Let's be nice to each other, k? Life's too short.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16614982 Mon, 31 Jul 2006 16:36:11 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16614750 anon :

Delta "Lightning arrestor"
3 wire single phase. 60,000 amps maximum current 2,000 joules per pole Unlimited number of surges. No leak current at double the rated voltage. PVC case material.

This appears to be just a "patented" MOV in a plastic can.
It is not a lightning arrestor, it is only a transient voltage surge suppressor.

The thin little wires instead direct mount on the bus bars do not inspire confidence either.

The main reason for using a whole house surge protector is to clamp surges at the entrance. Secondary surge protectors will then be subjected to much lower surges and will clamp at a lower voltage, thus offering better protection to the end user equipment.

The meter socket version is the most effective and simplest to use. It can be installed or replaced by a complete idiot in seconds.
The only drawback is the truck roll by the utility to replace the meter seal.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16614750 Mon, 31 Jul 2006 16:04:01 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16614106 signmeuptoo : Actually, steve1515, I have posted the below link about 1/2 dozen times here at DSLR trying to spread the word, I used to install a different brand of these when I worked as an electrician way back in the day:

»www.deltasurgeprotectors.com/

They are "passive" devices, therefore they don't actually consume electricty or turn on/off per se. They work somewhat like a valve that shorts the spikes, surges, and transients **Directly** to your ground stake or ground loop of your house. You want to have a VERY GOOD ground stake implanted for these to work most optimally.

IMHO, EVERY residence in the USA should have these, by law! As a juiceman, I saw a few different houses that burned partially or completely down due to lightning, saw homes with lots of damaged electonics and appliances INCLUDING refridgerstors and things with motors, and so on. I became really convinced of these products after seeing what the *can* prevent.

Keep in mind that surge protectors, some types (most?) depend upon the ground lead to protect your electronics. But what happens when the lightning bolt flows down your service drop from the pole, or across the underground line at the ground level transformer (yet, IT DOES HAPPEN, and I have seen terrible aftermaths!) and flows along BOTH Service legs of 120VAC AND the Neutral, which is terminated to ground in your electrical panel?

That is where these protectors come in. You MUST buy the four+lead models (if you have a non-120VAC run to, as some homes do around the country, you will need one specifically for that as well). There will be a lead for each of the two hot 120VAC leads, one for the Neutral, and one that runs ***DIRECTLY*** to ground, rather than to the ground bus of the panel.

I VERY strongly urge all homeowners and any renter possible to install these three items.

Oh, and BTW, no, they don't produce a Cable TV product as well, and seem uninterested in making one, for some reason, as I have asked and suggested...
--
Let's be nice to each other, k? Life's too short.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16614106 Mon, 31 Jul 2006 14:25:53 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16609471 Splitpair :

said by jig

Residential 2 hot 1 neutral 120/240 service is considered single phase.

Wayne
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16609471 Sun, 30 Jul 2006 20:04:47 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16609452 Splitpair :

said by jig

:

also, question: for you guys that have 2 or three of the 1240s installed... do you install them on the same circuit/breaker as (for example) the washing machine? so you don't actually put in a new breaker, you just piggy back on what's already there?

In my case the primary surge protector is an older Joslyn model is bridged on the load side of the main breaker at my service entrance panel. The secondary surge protectors are bridged on the load side of the breaker on the circuit they protect.

The idea is to cascade the protection if the surge knocks down one wall maybe the next will block it.

The only step to raise that level would be to replace the main breaker with equally rated fuses.

Wayne
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16609452 Sun, 30 Jul 2006 20:00:34 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16608441 nonymous :

said by jig

:

when they say single phase, does that include two phases that are 180 degrees apart?

it just seems strange to offer a product for single phase at 200A. i though that the vast majority of residential service drops are 2 phase 240 (180 degrees apart).

also, question: for you guys that have 2 or three of the 1240s installed... do you install them on the same circuit/breaker as (for example) the washing machine? so you don't actually put in a new breaker, you just piggy back on what's already there?

if you just want to use one to protect the whole house, do you need a whole house breaker? we don't have either a mechanical switch OR a master breaker between the mains and any of the branch breakers. sucks for self wiring. i've wondered if i could have the power company come put in at least a master switch for free.... cause if they won't do it, then i'd just rather replace the whole thing to make room for stuff like the surge protection and a better organized distribution of power.

You need a master breaker. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16608441 Sun, 30 Jul 2006 16:49:21 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16605428 91439306 : Breakers work in this application because of the crest factor with spikes--it's extremely high and ckt breakers can handle momentary spikes many, many times their rated hold capacity. A spike will probably not trip the breaker. The breaker would definately trip if the transient suppressor were to fail in the shorted mode. That would be a continuous high current load (a short circuit) and the breaker would do its job.
Case in point, my sound racks have multiple 20A breakers. Each breaker has a QSC Powerlight amplifier running off it. The amplifier can draw 95 amperes if driven to full power. A short musical burst at full power won't trip the 20A breaker, but if the program is too dense and unrelenting, the breakers will trip in seconds. The lights dim rather scarily when it's cranked up very loud, but the breakers hold because the crest factor is over 9dB, nearly a ten to one power ratio, so the average current at the breaker is under 20A and everyone is happy.
--
Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

My Kurzweil Music at: '»www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm

'»www.basspig.com Bass Pig's Lair

'»www.mwcomms.com

'»www.adventuresinanimemusic.com Stereo Feed!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16605428 Sun, 30 Jul 2006 02:18:27 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16603752 jig :

said by 91439306

:

but I don't recommend piggybacking, unless you don't mind having to track down the tripped circuit or wonder why your fridge is off.

the problem i have with not piggybacking, if i understand everything correctly, is that if the power company is futzing with stuff, hits you with one surge that take out your protection, then you are completely unprotected when (not if) they hit you with a second surge as they put everything back together.

having the breaker go when the protector goes seems safer, unless you think that that kind of pop would cause significant damage to wound motors and such (should as long as there is a ground path, right?).
--
A man compounded of law and gospel is able to cheat a whole country with his religion and then destroy them under color of law. -Ben Franklin]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16603752 Sat, 29 Jul 2006 20:42:42 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16602965 91439306 : I chose to install one dedicated dual 20a breaker for mine. You could add multiple units, but I don't recommend piggybacking, unless you don't mind having to track down the tripped circuit or wonder why your fridge is off.

Residential power is split-phase (single phase) 240.
At work, I work with mostly 3-phase power for radio and television transmitters. There are three separate phase angles, not one half of the same phase as with residential power.
--
Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

My Kurzweil Music at: '»www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm

'»www.basspig.com Bass Pig's Lair

'»www.mwcomms.com

'»www.adventuresinanimemusic.com Stereo Feed!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16602965 Sat, 29 Jul 2006 18:30:31 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16602949 91439306 : You misunderstood me. I wasn't talking about the Intermatic. I was referring to the EFI model that installs at the utility meter. I believe that requires an electrician to install. And after a surge happens, say, when you're at work, the smoke would be long gone and I wonder how you would determine whether the unit is still protecting. If you reread my two points, I think you'll be able to answer those questions.
--
Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

My Kurzweil Music at: '»www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm

'»www.basspig.com Bass Pig's Lair

'»www.mwcomms.com

'»www.adventuresinanimemusic.com Stereo Feed!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16602949 Sat, 29 Jul 2006 18:27:08 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16602767 jig : when they say single phase, does that include two phases that are 180 degrees apart?

it just seems strange to offer a product for single phase at 200A. i though that the vast majority of residential service drops are 2 phase 240 (180 degrees apart).

also, question: for you guys that have 2 or three of the 1240s installed... do you install them on the same circuit/breaker as (for example) the washing machine? so you don't actually put in a new breaker, you just piggy back on what's already there?

if you just want to use one to protect the whole house, do you need a whole house breaker? we don't have either a mechanical switch OR a master breaker between the mains and any of the branch breakers. sucks for self wiring. i've wondered if i could have the power company come put in at least a master switch for free.... cause if they won't do it, then i'd just rather replace the whole thing to make room for stuff like the surge protection and a better organized distribution of power.
--
A man compounded of law and gospel is able to cheat a whole country with his religion and then destroy them under color of law. -Ben Franklin]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16602767 Sat, 29 Jul 2006 17:55:58 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16601646 Splitpair :

said by 91439306

:

1. when it fails, how do you know it's failed (LED? Where?)

What’s the model? On the IG1240RC which is a common consumer model if either green light is out or the red light is on the unit is pooched another is by smell.

I had a 1240 go hard fault after a power company transformer failure. I ended up with two breakers tripped the main and the branch circuit the 1240 is on In addition to that there was a pungent odor of electronics turned to smoke emitting from somewhere around the breaker panel.

After transferring to generator and determining the power companies transformer was off-line (the cutout was laying in my yard again) I left the main (mine) open and reset the branch circuit. Instantly the generator loaded up the breaker tripped and another puff of smoke emitted from the 1240 reminding me not to do that again.

2. probably requires an elecrician to install and replace every time it takes a hit and sacrifices itself.

If you wired it you should be able to replace it.

not to mention the wife's new washing machine, with all its computerized wizardry.

I have a single 1240 on the utility room circuit due to in part an LG washer in there. Very nice machine low power and water consumption but will all of it’s electronic magic it cannot recover from a simple power failure I ended up putting an APC UPS on it to compensate for our power companies lack of reliability.

BTW Intermatic replaced the toasted unit no charge.

Wayne
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16601646 Sat, 29 Jul 2006 14:15:45 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16601423 91439306 : Did I say that I connected it to the main breaker? No. I said I placed it as close as possible, so that the wire length would be as short as possible, and that the protection is at the main breaker end of the panel, ahead of the rest of the breakers. The instructions called for a dual 20A breaker for its connection to the panel, which I used.

The EFI surge protector certainly is functionally great, however, I have two issues with it:

1. when it fails, how do you know it's failed (LED? Where?)
2. probably requires an elecrician to install and replace every time it takes a hit and sacrifices itself.

If anyone can answer to the two issues above, then I'd be more apt to look into it.

In forty years at this address, we have never had even one ac powered device fail due to lightning down a power line, however, I am not taking chances with the sheer quantity of costly equipment I have in service in my studio, not to mention the wife's new washing machine, with all its computerized wizardry. We're fortunate to have a good electrical drop (albeit somewhat inadequate to power my stereo to full power, but that's an extreme situation) as far as surge hazards and while neighbors to either side of us regularly lose TVs, well pumps and stereos during storms, for some reason, we have had none of that. Perhaps it's due to the pole pigs on either side of us--we're isolate from both ends of the power line.
--
Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

My Kurzweil Music at: '»www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm

'»www.basspig.com Bass Pig's Lair

'»www.mwcomms.com

'»www.adventuresinanimemusic.com Stereo Feed!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16601423 Sat, 29 Jul 2006 13:32:53 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16600806 SparkChaser : That's a nice solution, Wayne! Definitely the way to do a meter.

Ron]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16600806 Sat, 29 Jul 2006 11:34:25 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16600636 Splitpair :

said by SparkChaser

:

The meter box may be an ideal location, however opening it up to add a couple of MOV's would probably be against code and fairly dangerous. I believe MOV's when hooked to the mains require a "protection" device to prevent a shorted or burning MOV hanging on the main feed.

Use the correct product and you should have no problem.

»www.efinet.com/index.php?mode=pr···ly_id=36

Wayne
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16600636 Sat, 29 Jul 2006 11:09:33 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16600048 SparkChaser :

said by electric6 :

Use caution in relaying on these little things.
First of all 60kA abs max is a bit low, and surge spec (I^2)t rating is not included. Also the connecting wires are too thin.
MOV elements are not expensive, and using bus rails and wide Cu straps you can construct a high rating inexpensive suppressor.
By the way the best location is the socket under the electric meter.

60KA per leg is in the middle to high end of the recommended range for 220V residential service.

The wire size doesn't bother me if it's kept short. It's going through the breaker which is probably going to have more effect on the response than the wire. One could certainly construct their own but I'm not sure how that would sit with the NEC and your insurance company.

The meter box may be an ideal location, however opening it up to add a couple of MOV's would probably be against code and fairly dangerous. I believe MOV's when hooked to the mains require a "protection" device to prevent a shorted or burning MOV hanging on the main feed.

--
My computer has more memory than I do!

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16600048 Sat, 29 Jul 2006 08:33:58 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16599991 Splitpair :

said by 91439306

:

I took issue with the wire size too, which is why I mounted mine as close as possible to the main ckt breaker and cut the wires to the shortest possible length to make a direct run to the breaker pair and ground bus.

You don't want that device on the main breaker. If goes into a hard fault it needs a breaker that sized to the unit per the instructions to trip and not become a fire hazard.

Example the IG1240RC wants either two 15 or 20 amp breakers.

»www.intermatic.com/images/instru···40RC.pdf

Wayne

--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16599991 Sat, 29 Jul 2006 08:14:35 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16599945 91439306 : Yes, 60KA is not a huge amount of protection, but for $39, it's way better than no protection.

I took issue with the wire size too, which is why I mounted mine as close as possible to the main ckt breaker and cut the wires to the shortest possible length to make a direct run to the breaker pair and ground bus.

Ideally, the best place to clamp is outside the building, but that's a costly affair. A spark gap is ideal for direct hits, but you also need a lower clamp voltage for the benefit of reducing the spike amplitude that sensitive equipment may endure.
--
Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

My Kurzweil Music at: '»www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm

'»www.basspig.com Bass Pig's Lair

'»www.mwcomms.com

'»www.adventuresinanimemusic.com Stereo Feed!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16599945 Sat, 29 Jul 2006 07:58:45 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16599761 SparkChaser :

said by 91439306

:

On this topic, I found a decent, inexpensive Intermatic surge protector

I use that one. Wayne (splitpair) has the Intermatic as well but I'm not sure of the model (actually he has 3). My computers are on UPS's and all the other electronic equipment are on protected outlets.

Speaking of musical equipment. When my son lived at home we had a fairly expensive organ that I protected with transzorbs and varistors (before the intermatic was installed) During a storm it got hit and the transzob did it's job saving $1000's
--
My computer has more memory than I do!

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16599761 Sat, 29 Jul 2006 06:07:08 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16599739 Splitpair :

said by no_one :

It needs a very good earth ground to work properly.
How does one measure how good the earth ground is?

I use a Megger it's an older unit but works just fine.

»www.megger.com/us/story/Index.php?ID=125

Wayne
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16599739 Sat, 29 Jul 2006 05:51:14 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16599299 anon :

inexpensive Intermatic surge protector at Home Depot this week. It's rated for 60KA surge suppression capacity and protects both legs of 240vac

Use caution in relaying on these little things.
First of all 60kA abs max is a bit low, and surge spec (I^2)t rating is not included. Also the connecting wires are too thin.
MOV elements are not expensive, and using bus rails and wide Cu straps you can construct a high rating inexpensive suppressor.
By the way the best location is the socket under the electric meter.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16599299 Sat, 29 Jul 2006 01:44:30 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16599225 91439306 : On this topic, I found a decent, inexpensive Intermatic surge protector at Home Depot this week. It's rated for 60KA surge suppression capacity and protects both legs of 240vac. There are two green LEDs, indicating each 120v leg energized, and a red LED for when the unit has been sacrified to a lightning hit. $39 each at HD is cheap insurance for everything in the house.
Even though my computers, music synths, etc, are all powered by a 3kVA UPS, which is running off a Sola CVS installed on that circuit, my sound system is too big for a UPS or a Sola of any manageable size, and our other major appliances are also not on the 'clean' circuit. So the Intermatic unit appears to be a good piece of insurance in this stormy summer.
I am most familiar with the Islatran units we use in broadcast transmission facilities, and from what I can tell, this little Intermatic unit is just about as good. The Islatrans have MOV protectors, inside 3x4x6" plastic boxes, mounted in a 2 cu ft NEMA box and sell for about a grand. The specs are probably similar.
I highly recommend this little gem from Home Depot. CHeap insurance!
--
Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

My Kurzweil Music at: '»www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm

'»www.basspig.com Bass Pig's Lair

'»www.mwcomms.com

'»www.adventuresinanimemusic.com Stereo Feed!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16599225 Sat, 29 Jul 2006 01:21:33 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16596244 anon : Yes and no. The ground is at the service meter I believe usually. Installed by the builder at construction time. The utility may approve it but things happen over the years. is there a way to test it?
The utility does have other grounds on its system but this is the one the whole house would use I think.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16596244 Fri, 28 Jul 2006 16:30:53 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16595457 SparkChaser :

said by no_one :

It needs a very good earth ground to work properly.
How does one measure how good the earth ground is?

As Wayne said, it shorts across the hot e.g 230VAC or to ground. The ground is provided courtesy of your power company.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16595457 Fri, 28 Jul 2006 14:31:17 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16595343 anon : It needs a very good earth ground to work properly.
How does one measure how good the earth ground is?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16595343 Fri, 28 Jul 2006 14:14:49 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16593086 Splitpair :

said by steve1515

:

I don't see how this could protect anything. Wouldn't the surge go out to every circuit?

Can someone explain how these things work?

They work by either shunting the surge across the hots or shorting the surge to ground. The theory of operation is the surge protector takes the brunt of the surge until it either the surge clears or opens a protective device (fuse/breaker) ahead of the surge protector isolating all downstream equipment from the source of the surge.

This is one of the reasons the first line surge protector should be installed at the service entrance. Then if needed secondary protectors can be installed on branch circuits as required. Try to stop the surge ahead of the point where it enters the building and before internal distribution.

Wayne
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16593086 Fri, 28 Jul 2006 07:32:31 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16592977 SparkChaser : The word surge suppressor is sort of a misnomer (IMO). There is another term used TVS (Transient Voltage Supressor) which is closer to reality. See picture

All the ones I know of use MOVs (Metal Oxide Varistor) or SOVs (Silicon Oxide Varistor). Delta has a capacitor they sell, as well.

It basically operates as a voltage sensitive resistor. No current flows through the resistor until it reaches a trigger voltage. At that point current starts flowing and the transient is shunted through the MOV minimizing the affects of the high voltage spike.

Here are 2 suppliers first one uses MOV the other SOV
»www.intermatic.com/?action=div&did=6
»www.deltala.com/how.htm
--
My computer has more memory than I do!

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16592977 Fri, 28 Jul 2006 06:48:00 EDT Re: Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16591719 drjim : Here's a few to read:
»www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/knowhow···,00.html
»computer.howstuffworks.com/surge···tor6.htm
»www.apc.com/resource/include/tec···ku=PMP1X
--
One man's Magic is another man's Engineering.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16591719 Thu, 27 Jul 2006 23:32:02 EDT Whole House Surge Protector? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16590828 steve1515 : I've looked at whole house surge protectors and am wondering how they work. All the manuals I've read say that all you need to do is connect them to circuit breakers on each bus (and neutral & ground). I don't see how this could protect anything. Wouldn't the surge go out to every circuit?

Can someone explain how these things work?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16590828 Thu, 27 Jul 2006 21:21:23 EDT