Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product? in Electronics

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 07 Oct 2006 17:27:53 EDT

said by vader716 :

It's saturday morning and I'm trying to learn about Inductive loads....what kind of life do you think I have? .....
I figure I've wasted more than $250 bucks in my life on worse things.

The magic device is a box of caps.
Connecting the caps to an inductive load will reduce the current, but not the power, except for some losses in the wiring. Therefore there should not be much difference in the electric meter readings.
Thus far nobody posted any measurable savings data showing otherwise.

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 07 Oct 2006 10:23:11 EDT

vader716 : It's saturday morning and I'm trying to learn about Inductive loads....what kind of life do you think I have? :)

I'm guessing what I will save on is

Furnace/AC motor
refrigerator
washing machine & dryer
Microwave - maybe?
Pool pump
Ceiling fans?
Blower for my fireplace fan
Tvs, computer - maybe?

I figure I've wasted more than $250 bucks in my life on worse things.

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 07 Oct 2006 10:10:49 EDT

SparkChaser : If it has a motor it's inductive,e.g washing machine, refrigerator, air conditioning, dehumidifier, etc. These big items are the ones where it's suppose to help. Regular light bulbs, electric radiant heat, electric hot water are resistant.

Newer electronics and the CFL bulbs are sort of their own class

I don't have a PS1200, so I can't give you results. I did buy my own electric meter :D to tinker with and run some experiments. I don't have a life :p
--
Proud Secular Progressive

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 07 Oct 2006 09:58:36 EDT

vader716 : I bought one of these PS 1200 and installed it. I figure if I get 5% savings and my electric bill is $200-$250 than it is worth it.

I read this whole thread...you guys appear to be really well informed. Wow...

So have the users who have installed the unit realized a savings?

I'm off to go find out what in my house is inductive vs resistive (don't really understand it).

Great thread...it was worth the read

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Thu, 07 Sep 2006 13:53:06 EDT

SparkChaser :

said by public :

So does it save energy as advertised?

I don't have one, you'll have to check out the recent posts by by Anonuser and judge for yourself.

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Thu, 07 Sep 2006 13:07:30 EDT

public :

said by SparkChaser :

The original purpose of the thread was to understand if/how the "Power Save 1200" did anything to the perceived (read measured) power consumption.

So does it save energy as advertised?

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Thu, 07 Sep 2006 08:22:35 EDT

SparkChaser :

said by public :

You do not seem to understand.
Electric meters are specifically constructed to measure actual power usage.

We understand, if you read the thread that statement is expressed several times. It is also here: »www.themeterguy.com/Theory/watth···0Diagram

The original purpose of the thread was to understand if/how the "Power Save 1200" did anything to the perceived (read measured) power consumption. I can't speak for the other contributors but I'm just tinkering. I've learned a few things about the current waveform along the way. You are taking it way too seriously. IMHO :)
--
My computer has more memory than I do!

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Thu, 07 Sep 2006 06:11:44 EDT

jig : and the overall actual power usage might be reduced if conditioning the power (correcting) at the motor reduces losses contributing to heat in the windings rather than mechanical power output.

what's your beef? the only questions left now are if this method of correction is 1) lowering the overall bill in a residence, and 2) doing anything else tangibly beneficial
--
A man compounded of law and gospel is able to cheat a whole country with his religion and then destroy them under color of law. -Ben Franklin

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Wed, 06 Sep 2006 23:36:46 EDT

public :

said by Tursiops_G :

said by public :

said by Tursiops_G :

It's just a matter of balancing the Inductive Reactance of the Motor with the proper amount of Capacitive Reactance...
The Ideal goal is to achieve a Power Factor (PF) of 1.0 (Neither Inductive, Nor Capacitive)... The same as a Purely Resistive Load. ;)

But how will that reduce power consumption?

By having a "Unity" (1.0) Power Factor on an Electric Motor, you will maximize it's Efficiency, resulting in lower Power Consumption...

See Here for more info: »www.lmphotonics.com/pwrfact.htm

-Tursiops_G.

You do not seem to understand.
Electric meters are specifically constructed to measure actual power usage. If an electric meter does not reject reactive power, you can call the utility and have the meter replaced.

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Wed, 06 Sep 2006 23:08:50 EDT

anon : And it still depends on whether the meter is effected by power factor. Supposedly residential meters aren't...

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Wed, 06 Sep 2006 22:53:50 EDT

Tursiops_G :

said by SparkChaser :

said by Tursiops_G :

It's just a matter of balancing the Inductive Reactance of the Motor with the proper amount of Capacitive Reactance...The Ideal goal is to achieve a Power Factor (PF) of 1.0 (Neither Inductive, Nor Capacitive)... The same as a Purely Resistive Load. ;)

I think most of us here know what has to be done fro PF correction. The question (if you read back through the thread) is several fold. First was whether the Power save 1200 would work or not. It is a bank of capacitors without any control (as far as we know) attached to the power distribution box. This means that the load could go from capacitive to resistive to inductive depending on the types of loads. The main question was, how does the power meter react? Supposedly, it measures true power not apparent power. So, the caps may not have any affect.

I took several appliances around the house and looked at the voltage and current waveforms and the PF. The result vary greatly depending on the type of motor and load. I've sort of let it lay there :) but want to get back to it( I need more caps).

Splitpair and Anonuser are running different experiments but to the same goal, save money :D

Ron

Ron, I think that you may have hit it squarely on the head... ;)

If the PowerSave 1200 Doesn't have Active Power Factor Sensing, and can't dynamically apply the appropriate amount of capacitance to accomodate changing Load PF conditions, then I'd think that it is probably designed more to accomodate the "Average Joe" Homeowner, that has the Usual Refrigerator/Freezer, Washer, Dryer, (and perhaps a Central Air Conditioner) type of setup... ;)

In that case, It's Overall Effectiveness on Energy Cost Savings would be dependant on the Actual Load conditions of the Home that it is installed into... :huh:

-Tursiops_G.
--
If You're Unsure, "RTFM"... If You're SURE, "RTFM" Anyway. ;)

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Wed, 06 Sep 2006 21:48:25 EDT

Tursiops_G :

said by public :

But how will that reduce power consumption?

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Wed, 06 Sep 2006 11:26:39 EDT

anon : You guys are the biggest electro geeks I have ever seen.

I salute you.

I'm thinking about the power-save 1200 for my house. Any other results to speak of?

How about the surge protection aspect? It seems the stupid box would be worth it just for that.

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Wed, 06 Sep 2006 06:21:47 EDT

SparkChaser :

said by Tursiops_G :

It's just a matter of balancing the Inductive Reactance of the Motor with the proper amount of Capacitive Reactance...The Ideal goal is to achieve a Power Factor (PF) of 1.0 (Neither Inductive, Nor Capacitive)... The same as a Purely Resistive Load. ;)

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Wed, 06 Sep 2006 03:16:56 EDT

public :

But how will that reduce power consumption?

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Tue, 05 Sep 2006 22:40:22 EDT

Tursiops_G : It's just a matter of balancing the Inductive Reactance of the Motor with the proper amount of Capacitive Reactance...
The Ideal goal is to achieve a Power Factor (PF) of 1.0 (Neither Inductive, Nor Capacitive)... The same as a Purely Resistive Load. ;)

Of course, If you can get access to a Power Factor Meter, That would be the easiest way to tell... »www.yokogawa.com/us/mi/Metersand···ries.htm

-Tursiops_G.
--
If You're Unsure, "RTFM"... If You're SURE, "RTFM" Anyway. ;)

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 02 Sep 2006 19:25:37 EDT

Splitpair :

said by public :

The current may drop, but actual power may stay the same.
That is why power measurement is needed.

Thats why I am setting a testbed using both an amprobe and a watthour meter.

While I do see a slight reduction in amperage until I get the WM hooked up my jury is still out.

Wayne

--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician.

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 02 Sep 2006 14:19:23 EDT

SparkChaser :

said by public :

The current may drop, but actual power may stay the same.That is why power measurement is needed.

That's why I was using the scope. I could see the V-I phase shift and compute the power. You're right though, I never did see how the "electric meter" responded. The wife gets upset when I kill all the power. :D

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 02 Sep 2006 12:58:05 EDT

public :

said by SparkChaser :

I've experimented with my single 60uF cap :D. I think my results have been like Wayne's. I haven't tried seeing the effect on the power meter but I used an oscilloscope and amp meter. I've tried it on the washer, 2 dehumidifiers, air compressor and fans. The most significant decrease was on the washing machine, the fans next. Anything with a compressor did not do well. It has a distorted I waveform and does not appear to be as out of phase as the other motors. In fact, the current on the air compressor went up at one point.

The current may drop, but actual power may stay the same.
That is why power measurement is needed.

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 02 Sep 2006 07:37:32 EDT

SparkChaser : I've experimented with my single 60uF cap :D. I think my results have been like Wayne's. I haven't tried seeing the effect on the power meter but I used an oscilloscope and amp meter. I've tried it on the washer, 2 dehumidifiers, air compressor and fans. The most significant decrease was on the washing machine, the fans next. Anything with a compressor did not do well. It has a distorted I waveform and does not appear to be as out of phase as the other motors. In fact, the current on the air compressor went up at one point.

I'll continue to tinker as time allows.

Ron
--
My computer has more memory than I do!

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 02 Sep 2006 04:24:50 EDT

Splitpair : FWIW I did receive my cap banks and while they do cut back on the number of amps drawn by the various motors I tested them on it is nothing dramatic as of yet.

Wayne

--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician.

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 02 Sep 2006 04:21:39 EDT

Splitpair :

said by Anonuser :

Besides that, all other usage stayed the same or increased as business has been picking up lately since our advertising kicked in.

Yes but you haven't even had it connected for even an entire billing cycle. Considering read date to bill print the actual time has been only a week or two which puts the claimed savings beyond the possibilties of the unit based on your own measurements.

Wayne
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician.

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 02 Sep 2006 00:53:46 EDT

public :

said by Anonuser :

Yes, I can. I connected it during the billing peroid of the major heat wave here, where we had our AC's running 25-50% longer then normal. Besides that, all other usage stayed the same or increased as business has been picking up lately since our advertising kicked in.

Why not take actual electric meter readings rather than just speculate?

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Fri, 01 Sep 2006 11:49:55 EDT

Anonuser : Yes, I can. I connected it during the billing peroid of the major heat wave here, where we had our AC's running 25-50% longer then normal. Besides that, all other usage stayed the same or increased as business has been picking up lately since our advertising kicked in.
--
Do the Do!

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:45:03 EDT

Splitpair :

said by Anonuser :

Well, got the power bill. Just over $50 cheaper then the last one. And we used more AC during this bill (The nasty heat wave!). So, thats $50 banked already twords this product!

Based on your own measurements with the device applied and not and the time between installation and savings considering there is a lack of a full month and or to month billing can you really attribute that "savings" to the device?

Wayne
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician.

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Mon, 28 Aug 2006 14:20:57 EDT

Anonuser : Well, got the power bill. Just over $50 cheaper then the last one. And we used more AC during this bill (The nasty heat wave!). So, thats $50 banked already twords this product!
--
Do the Do!

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Tue, 15 Aug 2006 18:34:59 EDT

Splitpair :

said by SparkChaser :

said by Anonuser :

Any more discoveries?

Nothing here, waiting to get some caps. Maybe Wayne has got something going. Is the "1200" is doing the do? ;)

I’m waiting on the cap bank to arrive home the guy is a neighbor so I am not going to “bug” him. Being the cheapskate I am I sincerely appreciate the offer to borrow the unit. He did express doubts about it having any effect on a residential service but he does admit as I do that either of us know enough about this (pf correction) to make an informed decision one way or the other so we will see.

BTW for those of you who have a non-digital watthour meter and might want to watch a spinning disk vs. time to determine power usage I received this info from the meter-man Dave Dahle.

To determine watthours per disk revolution locate the “Kh” marking on the nameplate. In the case of my meter the number is 7.2 so each revolution of the disk equals 7.2 watthours.

That number of turns and a set period of time will make it real easy to determine the effect and possible savings of a cap bank on any inductive appliance I can get my hands on.

FWIW the “meter” site »www.watthourmeters.com/

Wayne
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician.

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Tue, 15 Aug 2006 15:41:51 EDT

Anonuser : I'm placing my order for a bunch of units, turns out, going to need more then 4. Gransparents house is 1, parents house, thats 2, my house (moved mine to the shoppe) thats 3, parents business has 3 incomming services, thats 6, but one of the services is 400 amp single phase (they own a small resort), so i calld up power save company, the PS1200 is made for 200 amp service, but If I put one on each load center (the 400 amp just splits into 2x200 amp load centers for each building), that would work just fine, and would auctually be better then having it at the feeder from the Utility.

So i'm up to 7 boxes.

I'm getting a good wholesale price, of 227 each + shipping. If any of you want one, it will drop ship right to your house, join in on my wholesale order and thats 70 cheaper then they sell it on their site. Shipping is about $15 ish each.
Planning on ordering wed or thursday. I make no money, it's 227 is the price their selling them to me for (just to be clear on that),

So if any of you other electronics doctors want to disect one of these suckers, let me know asap!
--
Do the Do!

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Tue, 15 Aug 2006 15:26:51 EDT

Anonuser : Yep, sure is. Still showing a 8 amp total drop when the AC's running, and about 1 amish drop with just the exhaust fans running.

I picked up a digital meter this weekend. It was $6, results with the digital meter were as expected---it's good for crap reading the amps.

It was about 5 amps off from my radio shack analog meter, and my kill a watt meter. so i'm not using that thing any longer.
--
Do the Do!

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Tue, 15 Aug 2006 14:17:53 EDT

SparkChaser :

said by Anonuser :

Any more discoveries?

Nothing here, waiting to get some caps. Maybe Wayne has got something going. Is the "1200" is doing the do? ;)

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Tue, 15 Aug 2006 13:54:14 EDT

Anonuser : Any more discoveries?
--
Do the Do!

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Mon, 14 Aug 2006 11:27:10 EDT

SparkChaser : Just for the interest of the techies here :). I don’t have a power or PF meter, nor any large caps, so I did the next best thing and hooked up a scope and measured a few inductive loads, e.g fans, dehumidifiers, air compressor. A couple of sample pictures above.

I didn’t pull them open to see what kind of motors they were, except for one.

The worst one was a small fan that had a shaded pole motor, about .78

The dehumidifiers and compressors had a distinctive distortion to the current waveform. The PF was around 85-92.

On interesting fan was a 3 speed. At the high speed the current was inductive on the 2 other speeds it went capacitive.

I still want to get some larger caps to test :D

In regards to a cap across a motor when its starting, a 120uF cap should charge in less than a ms and the current lag in the motor is usually more that that. I don’t think it will affect it that much, of course the relay contact may suffer.
--
My computer has more memory than I do!

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Mon, 14 Aug 2006 11:20:28 EDT

anon : »www.dansdata.com/danletters171.htm

Scroll to the middle of the page

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Mon, 14 Aug 2006 07:07:49 EDT

Splitpair :

said by SmokChsr :

The Question I have is did you happen to open it up to see what the value of the Caps are and how they are connected. Ie 120 to ground each side, across the 240, or both?

The unit they show on the web site has three leads two black hot leads and a green ground so I'm guessing it is only placed across the hot legs. The green lead should only be connected to the case of the unit.

Wayne
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician.

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Mon, 14 Aug 2006 03:03:08 EDT

jig : you'd still be better off trying to quantify the rate change over 24 hours... which you should be able to do with analog and digital utility meters...
--
A man compounded of law and gospel is able to cheat a whole country with his religion and then destroy them under color of law. -Ben Franklin

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sun, 13 Aug 2006 19:49:46 EDT

Anonuser : I would post my meter, but both my meter at my home at at my shoppe are electronic, with no way to noticably see the rate change!

Once my order of 4 more come, I will put one on my grandparents house, and then be able to do that, as they still have a analog meter.
--
Do the Do!

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sun, 13 Aug 2006 18:46:21 EDT

Splitpair :

said by electric6 :

For $250 one should be able to get a box with not just caps, but also a couple of switches and a controller to switch the caps in and out.

I would tend to disagree with that. The total materials 3 caps and a NEMA box are probably 50-60 bucks add labor to assemble the U.L. listing and liability insurance you would be at about 150 or so add profit to your dealers and 250 is on the mark.

It is interesting that nobody posted data showing the electric meter rate change when the caps are connected.

Having the capability to do so and considering the concern for energy savings here I can assure you I will post my actual findings.

Wayne
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician.

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sun, 13 Aug 2006 18:28:48 EDT

jig : just one thing about switching the caps in and out with the inductive load... i remember reading that it's best to switch them in after the motor is up and running rather than trying to switch them in right at the front when the motor is trying to draw a large current to get rotating. so it might require a timer relay... just like an oil pressure switch relay.
--
A man compounded of law and gospel is able to cheat a whole country with his religion and then destroy them under color of law. -Ben Franklin

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sun, 13 Aug 2006 17:58:57 EDT

anon :

My opinion is proper application requires the cap bank to work in tandem with the inductive load. That is when the load is off-line so is the bank and that is what I see as the largest roadblock to deploying them in a residential application

For $250 one should be able to get a box with not just caps, but also a couple of switches and a controller to switch the caps in and out.

It is interesting that nobody posted data showing the electric meter rate change when the caps are connected.

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sun, 13 Aug 2006 08:35:54 EDT

Splitpair : One thing that needs to be remembered is cap banks are nothing new they are not some suddenly discovered 21 century solution. Heck my 1917 pre-edition of the “code” addresses the proper and safe use of cap banks for pf correction.

The primary reason for not deploying them as always has been money. Cap banks are not inexpensive and require some maintenance as such with electricity at a low price per kwh the only users of the banks where utilities for distribution and large industrial users for required pf correction. Now with the price of electricity going-through-the-roof it may make sense to use them in certain residential applications such as a/c units and pumps.

Again proper application is the key to making them work profitably. As already pointed out in this thread they do draw power in of themselves though G.E. claims the loss is insignificant at .5 watt per kVAR it is still a loss.

My opinion is proper application requires the cap bank to work in tandem with the inductive load. That is when the load is off-line so is the bank and that is what I see as the largest roadblock to deploying them in a residential application.

Nothing that cannot be solved with a little raintite conduit and some 12 gauge wire or a relay installed the right location but a complication none the less.

Wayne
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician.

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sun, 13 Aug 2006 07:55:09 EDT

Splitpair :

said by SmokChsr :

You didn't happen to see the value of those caps?

Na that is just a photograph I found on the Net showing the inside of a G.E. GEM cap bank.

My guess is the OP’s unit is a 1.2 kVAR based on the nameplate information and the model number. It seems the nameplate says may contain 3 x 40mf caps and the 7 amp works out close to 1.2kVAR.

That said I have located a G.E.GEM 3kVAR unit that I can borrow and if it makes enough of a difference I may buy it. The guy wants $75 which seems like a fair price.

Theoretically FWIW assuming an 80% pf my total inductive load here would require a 4.137 kVAR bank to correct to 99% pf.

When I pick it up I will let you all know how that works out.

I have the feeling ones mileage may vary depending on ones distance from the transformer feeding their premises and the sizing of that transformer. In my case I’m only 100 or so feet away from a 25Kva transformer so I may not see a significant change with inductive loads but who knows. I also contacted a friend who is fed from a URD transformer almost a block away and I plan on trying it at his home as well to see if it can make a difference.

My plan is to take the cap bank and wire it thru a 20 amp 240 vac breaker installed in a two position Square D sub panel I have here. Then feed it with a dryer cord to make a temporary connection to the 240 service in the test homes. The sub panel will allow me to prevent any arcing and sparking while connecting to the line and gives me the ability to easily insert and remove the cap bank from the homes electrical system. I will post my findings after the next week or so.

If it does work I will then calculate how and what sized banks are require to correct the pf of the larger inductive loads here with caps for each load. The caps will be connected to the load side of the motor controller this way the caps are only present to the feed when the motor is running.

Wayne
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician.

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sun, 13 Aug 2006 06:30:30 EDT

SparkChaser : Wayne, thanks for the links.

SmokChsr, Glad to see somebody trying this :) What change in COS did you see? Also

said by SmokChsr :

I had a couple 35uF motor run caps on the shelf so I broke them out.... When I reduced the load to strictly the AC unit the power consumption actually increased very slighting with the cap on line.

Did you try 2 caps in series (17uf) or parallel (70uF)at all?

said by SmokChsr :

Now one contributing factor may be that my shop is pretty much the first stop for the feeder after it leaves the substation. that might tend to keep the PF very close to 1 on the line, which may negate the benefit of having a capacitor on line.

Why does that affect it?
--
My computer has more memory than I do!

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sun, 13 Aug 2006 01:48:17 EDT

SmokChsr : Ok I couldn't resist any longer, I went to my shop and started playing. I had a couple 35uF motor run caps on the shelf so I broke them out. Using my clamp on power meter I didn't see any real difference with the cap in or out of the circuit. I must note my power meter is a tenma that I've never had a whole lot of faith in. The power meter did show a shift in cos, and PF, but not much of a change in power. Since the final verdict is given by the power company's meter I decided to run some time trials on it. The results came back mixed, under a heavy load All lights on (florescent transformer ballast) AC on and Fridge on, their was a slight reduction in power consumption. When I reduced the load to strictly the AC unit the power consumption actually increased very slighting with the cap on line. Now one contributing factor may be that my shop is pretty much the first stop for the feeder after it leaves the substation. that might tend to keep the PF very close to 1 on the line, which may negate the benefit of having a capacitor on line. In my test I used a single 35uF cap across a 240V line. It drew about 2 amps as expected. I guess my next test should be at the house where I'm much further from the sub and draw quite a bit more power.

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 12 Aug 2006 20:43:06 EDT

SmokChsr :

said by Anonuser :

If seeing the value of the caps entitles opening the PS unit, then no, I didnt see them.

That comment was aimed at Wayne, and the pics of the 3 phase unit.

As for adding more units increasing savings, at some point you will over correct the power factor and start increasing consumption. Also while it's not a large number, the caps are dissipating power as well do to losses and internal resistance.

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:36:33 EDT

Anonuser : Do you think that if I put 2 on one line, I will be able to save more? or somehow increase the effectivness?
--
Do the Do!

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:35:43 EDT

Anonuser : If seeing the value of the caps entitles opening the PS unit, then no, I didnt see them. I'm not planning on opening my unit.
--
Do the Do!

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:31:57 EDT

SmokChsr : Ahh ok.. Electrically what you have pictured, (in spite of the convoluted wiring) is simply 3 Caps, phase to phase, with no neutral reference. From each phase to phase their are 3 in parallel. You didn't happen to see the value of those caps?

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 12 Aug 2006 16:29:54 EDT

Anonuser : Click view orignal to see it in the full screen.
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Do the Do!

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 12 Aug 2006 16:28:19 EDT

Anonuser : Here are the pictures.
»pictures.sprintpcs.com/share.do?···ETRIEVED
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Do the Do!

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 12 Aug 2006 16:24:40 EDT

Anonuser : no tape measure with me :(

Unit is aprox 8 inches long, 5-6 inches high, and 4 inches deep.

Picture coming in a few minutes.
--
Do the Do!

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 12 Aug 2006 16:21:49 EDT

Splitpair :

said by Anonuser :

Going to my truck to get my tape measure, and will take another picture of the unit with my cell phone.

Thank you I appreciate that.

Wayne
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician.

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:33:37 EDT

Anonuser : Going to my truck to get my tape measure, and will take another picture of the unit with my cell phone.
--
Do the Do!

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:33:13 EDT

Anonuser : Yah, was expecting lower energy loss through heat. seem to be able to tell the difference in here in general.
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Do the Do!

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:24:35 EDT

Splitpair :

said by Anonuser :

Ran the AC for another hour. MUCH cooler. The AC was warm, like putting your hand on your forehead warm or sitting on your hand warm.

That would be expected with a corrected power factor.

Wayne
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If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician.

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:21:45 EDT

Splitpair : What does it say on the bottom right of the label. It looks like it says "may hold 3/40 MF units".

How big is that box?

Thanks
Wayne
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If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician.

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 12 Aug 2006 14:50:06 EDT

Anonuser : Air conditioner test is done. digital thermometer didnt work very well.

However, tested temp by touching after the AC has been running for 1 hour. First, did it without the power save unit, and the AC motor was hot to the touch, like, coffee thats been sitting on the table for 10 minutes hot. didnt really want to keep my hand on it.

I then, let the AC unit "cool" down to outside temp again.

Ran the AC for another hour. MUCH cooler. The AC was warm, like putting your hand on your forehead warm or sitting on your hand warm.
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Do the Do!

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 12 Aug 2006 14:48:53 EDT

anon :

however, a Box fan, Tower Fan, vaccume, and exhaust fans all showed a improvment.

The current meter is of dubious accuracy. Did you actually time the electric meter to determine any power savings?

For AC line service metalized film caps should be used. These are self healing.
Polypropylene is the preferred dielectric because of low AC losses.

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 12 Aug 2006 14:23:08 EDT

Anonuser : Front of my unit, and the only data I know besides the power save website.
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Do the Do!

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 12 Aug 2006 14:21:24 EDT

Splitpair :

said by SparkChaser :

I'm thinking of buying a couple of caps to try it out. The only I could find in my pile of junk was a 3MF oil. That didn't do anything to a dehumidifier.

Here's some more DIY fodder. A GE 30 kVAR 480 3P bank inside and out.

Wayne
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If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician.

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 12 Aug 2006 14:16:41 EDT

Splitpair : Any idea what the kVAR rating on your unit is?

Wayne

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 12 Aug 2006 13:14:54 EDT

Anonuser : Yes, please excuse me i mixed my terms up. it has a motor to pump the hot water from it's boiler, however, the motor is 1/3 hp. It does use 1700 watts to heat the water on it's 20 amp circut, but that wont much of anything.
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Do the Do!

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 12 Aug 2006 12:59:43 EDT

Splitpair :

said by Anonuser :

Inductive loads, like our Cappichino Machine,

Unless it has a five horse motor in it the maching is a resistive load not an inductive load.

Wayne
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If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician.

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 12 Aug 2006 12:58:04 EDT

Splitpair : A little research yealds some more info and maybe a few other ideas on alternative sources.

I will say one thing these folks give out a whole lot more information on their product and how these cap banks work and should be applied vs. the sealed box guys.

»www.geindustrial.com/publibrary/···974F.pdf

As for parts for a DIY job the PDF is your ticket. ;-)

Wayne

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If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician.

AerovoxPFC.zip 554,941 bytes
(AerovoxPFC.pdf)

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 12 Aug 2006 11:27:11 EDT

Anonuser : The power factor test was for the device that was plugged into my Kill A Watt only. My Kill A Watt is the only device I have to measure Power Factor, and it did change depeding on what was pluged in. Inductive loads, like our Cappichino Machine, had no change in PF, however, a Box fan, Tower Fan, vaccume, and exhaust fans all showed a improvment.
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Do the Do!

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 12 Aug 2006 11:22:35 EDT

SparkChaser :

said by SmokChsr :

I sort of figured they might have the unit sealed, or the components potted (buried in goo so you can't see it). Based on your data of 1 amp draw on each leg I'm thinking 22uf is about right.

I agree with your 22MF conclusion but I'm not sure how that is affecting the PF that much. Is it changing with different loads? Is the PS1200 just a $10-$20 cap in a NEMA enclosure? :(

I'm thinking of buying a couple of caps to try it out. The only I could find in my pile of junk was a 3MF oil. That didn't do anything to a dehumidifier.

Some caps here:
»www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/pr···itors%2C
»www.shinecapacitors.com/products···5A-1.htm
--
My computer has more memory than I do!

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 12 Aug 2006 11:04:29 EDT

Anonuser : Oh, and can do the compressor, and our exhaust fan.
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Do the Do!

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 12 Aug 2006 10:59:50 EDT

Anonuser :
SmokChsr,

I dont have a thermal thermometer :( I have a digital one. I can put that in the motor of my AC unit, doesnt get much "wind" in the center, so air shouldnt be a factor. Also the ac usually feels hot to the touch over the fan motor, so I mabe can tell by touch. I will give it a go now. Will take a few hours to get accurate reading, as I will have to test it running for a bit with and without the PS1200 running.
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Do the Do!

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 12 Aug 2006 10:51:59 EDT

Anonuser : Yah, the unit worked, so I am ordering a bunch, they gave me wholesale price, so I am making some $$$ off this on ebay ^_^ :D Thats how my mind works. Their is profit to be had here :)and I need money badly to fix my Scooter and wifes car :(

So if anyone from here wants a unit, since I'm ordering bulk, and getting wholesale price, Anyone else want one? Of cource for the wholesale price, not my raised price on ebay :)

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Do the Do!

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 12 Aug 2006 10:22:34 EDT

SparkChaser :

said by new :

»cgi.ebay.com/Power-Save-1200-KVA···ViewItem

Check this out on ebay. Or do a search for kvar to find it. The photos on the multimeter used on the ebay auction are exactly the same.. Also, seller is located in Milwaukee. What's the deal?

check the links at the begining of the thread
--
My computer has more memory than I do!

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 12 Aug 2006 10:08:42 EDT

SmokChsr : I sort of figured they might have the unit sealed, or the components potted (buried in goo so you can't see it). Based on your data of 1 amp draw on each leg I'm thinking 22uf is about right.

The big question is, does this unit really drop your power costs. Your power meter should read true power not apparent power. If that's the case then shifting the power factor, while dropping apparent power, wouldn't have much effect true power. Of course if the inductive load is running more efficiently then you would have a power savings there.

Along those lines another thought comes to mind, if you have a thermometer (infrared would be good) measure the temperature of a motor with the unit off line and then on line. The ambient conditions would have to remain fairly constant, and ample time would have to be allowed for the motor temperature to stabilize. A cooler device would indicate better efficency and less power wasted.

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 12 Aug 2006 09:57:59 EDT

anon : »cgi.ebay.com/Power-Save-1200-KVA···ViewItem

Check this out on ebay. Or do a search for kvar to find it. The photos on the multimeter used on the ebay auction are exactly the same.. Also, seller is located in Milwaukee. What's the deal?

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 12 Aug 2006 08:32:54 EDT

Anonuser : Jig, I'm satisfied with 5-15% savings. With my furnace off last night, and the shoppe pretty much shut down. I was still running at about .5 amps lower with the PS on then with it turned off. All that was running was the fridge in the employee room, exit light, and the big front sign. and one of the LCD TV's.

SmokChsr, I did not open the unit. They have it sealed with a rivet so people cannot tamper and opening it voids warrinty. I'd rather though, not open it. I've had some capacitor accidents in the past that haunt me @_@ and those were tiny tiny ones ^_^
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Do the Do!

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 12 Aug 2006 07:30:24 EDT

SmokChsr : The Question I have is did you happen to open it up to see what the value of the Caps are and how they are connected. Ie 120 to ground each side, across the 240, or both?

Lets see to draw 1 amp, that means the Cap resistance should be about 120 Ohms @ 60Hz. That should come out to about 22uF of capacitance.

You can probably guess what I'm a thinkin..

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 12 Aug 2006 01:37:25 EDT

jig : the reason why i ask is because i don't think "saving" 1.8kW just by correcting a power factor is.... possible. not for a residence anyway. i think you're saying you see an increase in the power factor of .05-.1, but what percentage increase was that? somewhere between 5 and 15%? or more?

but in addition to that, if the power save is constantly drawing a minimum of 1 amp on each leg... well, i think the only really reasonable way to measure this is to do a meter reading 24 hours power save on, and then save off, with all major appliances at about the same usage and hopefully at the same ambient temperature. i'm willing to believe at max somewhere between 5-10% lower kWhs usage over a summer (temp) day (or month). anything more and then it just stops making physical sense.
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A man compounded of law and gospel is able to cheat a whole country with his religion and then destroy them under color of law. -Ben Franklin

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Fri, 11 Aug 2006 21:07:41 EDT

Anonuser : with no load. No load being no major appliances running. I am not going to go about shutting off all the breakers to my hosue. So I guess thats with it running with small stuff running. Fridge, computer, tv, microwave n such.

With the AC running, the Power save is showing 4 amps on each pole. Their does not seem to be a set ammount of time the power save will, well save. I kept the ac running for 2 hrs straignt, and it kept saving.
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Do the Do!

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Fri, 11 Aug 2006 20:47:26 EDT

Splitpair :

said by Anonuser :

1 amp for each pole.

With no load or ?
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician.

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Fri, 11 Aug 2006 18:14:03 EDT

Anonuser : Yah, 1 amp each pole, but the amp draw from the mains is still lower with the unit turned on!

Checked a some power factors, their up a bit, not much. usually raised about .05 to .10
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Do the Do!

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Fri, 11 Aug 2006 18:06:12 EDT

Anonuser : 1 amp for each pole.
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Do the Do!

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Fri, 11 Aug 2006 17:56:40 EDT

jig : what's the current reading to the power save?

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Fri, 11 Aug 2006 16:30:54 EDT

Anonuser : Yah, thats just from the first 120 v pole. Second pole was about 1800 watts saved!
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Do the Do!

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Fri, 11 Aug 2006 15:58:53 EDT

novaflare :

said by Anonuser :

2 pictures I took before leaving the shoppe. One is before one is after. You need to look at the line that has the 1 2 and 3 on it. Take the number (1,2, or 3) and multuply by 10 to get the amperage. I'm sorry, I cannot afford a digital meter.

digital meters suck any how. Keep your needle meter i my self prefer them.

800 watts saved damn

Just seen other post

Instead only hate exists in those eyes.

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Fri, 11 Aug 2006 12:55:57 EDT

Anonuser : Another update.

Testing amperate at the feeder coming from the meter, shows the drop with the PS turned on. However, testing it going to the AC unit, Furnace, or any other device shows it pulling it same amperage. This does lead me to believe the power save WORKS!

This does blow my mind! I wish I had this a year ago. I am odering 4 more!
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Do the Do!

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Fri, 11 Aug 2006 12:01:56 EDT

SparkChaser : Thanks for the update, looks pretty interesting so far.

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Fri, 11 Aug 2006 10:50:09 EDT

Anonuser : I can measure volts seperately at the main. Voltage renains the same though @_@

I tested voltage seperate, calculated out wattage saved on pole 1 and it came to just over 800 watt's less being used on pole 1!!!
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Do the Do!

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Fri, 11 Aug 2006 03:26:59 EDT

jig : can you measure volts and amps at the same time in both instances?

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Fri, 11 Aug 2006 00:56:25 EDT

Anonuser : 2 pictures I took before leaving the shoppe. One is before one is after. You need to look at the line that has the 1 2 and 3 on it. Take the number (1,2, or 3) and multuply by 10 to get the amperage. I'm sorry, I cannot afford a digital meter.
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Do the Do!

With PS
Without PS

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Thu, 10 Aug 2006 23:34:50 EDT

Anonuser : Al-right ya all. Heres the first set of reviews!

Decided to move the unit into my shoppe, where we use much more electric then at my home.

So, I got a Cutler Hammer 20 amp breaker to put in the shoppe's box.

Connected er up.

Turned on the AC with the Power Save Off.

I checked the 2 poles of the 200 amp feeder coming into the shoppe.

Pole 1 was running at about 23 amps. Pole 2 was running at about 40 amps.

I then proceeded to flip on the Power Save.
Re checked the amperage. Instant drop of 4 amp's on Pole 1 and a Instant drop in amps by 8 amps on pole 2. That was a BIG difference!

I know I may have sounded like a fanboy of this thing, but I did enter this skepticlly! But it auctually works!!!

More tests and some pictures of my results comming tomorrow!
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Do the Do!

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Wed, 09 Aug 2006 11:46:24 EDT

Anonuser : Forgot to add, I like to watch the spinny thing on the older meters :( ARG Oh well. later it is then for testing!
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Do the Do!

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Wed, 09 Aug 2006 08:41:10 EDT

Anonuser : Cant do that. WE Energies replaced our meter with a all digital one last month :( I hate the new ones, pain in the ass to read. And if you dont look at it at the right angle, you cant see half the numbers :(
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Do the Do!

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Wed, 09 Aug 2006 03:38:46 EDT

SmokChsr : You might have the test equipment you need right on your arm. Just turn on the AC and some other steady state loads, (making sure the AC won't be able to satisfy the thermostat for a while) Take a stop watch and check the time required for 10-100 (pick a number) revolutions of the watt-hour meter. Once done flip the breaker to the Power save, and repeat the timing.

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Wed, 09 Aug 2006 01:09:35 EDT

Anonuser : Ok, heres the deal. Was orignally going to install it first at my shoppe. But, I got 2 excited, and decided to install it at home since I was home and well, was excited. First thing, was to install a dedicated 20 amp breaker. No problem. I keep spare Square D breakrs on hand at all times (I have load centers in the oddest places ^_^)

Mounted the unit and installed onto the wall. Connected the 2 red wires to the 2 pole 20 amp breaker, and the green to the ground.

Got it all setup, flipped on the breaker for the power save, and lights right up.

Okey doke, So I go up to get my meters. Uh O, guess what, All my meters are at the shoppe! Well, already had it installed. No sence in un-installing it, especially since I dont have Cutler Hammer breakers (The shoppe box is the only cutler hammer one that we have, out of my ENTIRE family)

Well, hmmm. Decided to try some appliances out right off the bat. And let me tell you, I am very skepticle that this unit was going to really do much of anything at all!

So first, I start the dryer. No noticeable difference, as it's mostly Induction (electric heat dryer). Oh well.

So I moved on to the window AC units.

Usually, when I start the ac units, the compressor makes a GraWannnnnanaaaaaaaaaananananannaanaaaaaaaaaa noise, which is very loud and anoying. All 3 of em.

Well, To my suprise, all I heard tonight was a Wanananananananananana humming noise, very quiet. I would have to classify it as a "smooth operation" type sounding noise.

I tryed all 3 units, and all had the same results.

Another thing I noticed, is normally, it takes about 1-2 minutes at this tempetature to start cooling down, however, I noticed quite fridged air at aprox 35 seconds after starting the AC unit! I was very very suprised.

Lastly, I started the Furnace fan. We dont have Centural Air, but we have Centural Heat. I turned the heat control off and just turned on the furnace fan only.
I modified the cold air return with new vents, so that we can suck the cold basement air during the summer to cool the upstairs. So I turned on the furnace, and once more, quite suprised.

Usually, the furnace while running makes a WaWaWaWaWa vibrato noise. However, I could not hear that today, even when I went right up to the furnace. All I heard was the sound of the air moving through the ducts. No WaWaWaWa that we have come accustomed to.

Right now, Dont know about energy savings, however, thus far, it's doing somthing to my AC motors/Compressors, and I like it a lot! Much more to come tomorrow. Pictures, Video clips. Mostly of power factor data with and without the unit. My clip on amp meter is at my parents, I will try and swing by morrow, however, no garuntees.

Cheers!
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Do the Do!

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Tue, 08 Aug 2006 16:02:51 EDT

3SGTE : I find it hard to beleive that this device will result in power savings.

The same feelings are expressed somewhat more sarcastically in the spoiler:
|spoiler: $fontbg If I plug this device into an inverter which is connected to the 12v circuit of the car, will I save fuel too?
$Fontbg|
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The alphabet is my favourite group of letters in the whole world.

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Tue, 08 Aug 2006 12:54:02 EDT

Anonuser : For that, The only device reasonably priced that I could find was somthing called a Kill-A-Watt. I got it for $28 on ebay. great little device. Calculates watt's used, ampes, and shows voltage and more. Great device!

I am going to use that only for the power factor. I have regular meters for amps, and volts (although volts I do not think will matter much in this case)
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Do the Do!

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Tue, 08 Aug 2006 06:18:18 EDT

SparkChaser : Anon - What equipment you using for PF? I don't have anything here for that. I guess I could throw a scope on it but I'd probably kill myself :D

Ron

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Tue, 08 Aug 2006 00:15:48 EDT

Anonuser : I will be able to test Apiers, Watt's, and Power Factor with my equipment. Watt meter only works with 110/120v, so I will have to do some math with the AC and furnace, or whatever, I will figure it out as my math is horriable ^_^
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Do the Do!

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Tue, 08 Aug 2006 00:12:12 EDT

Anonuser : Claims it's a surge protector also, but if it doesnt save me money on my electric bill, I will still be satisfied in that it is a surge protector for the whole house. Of cource I will keep my regular protectors, but that added bonus at the box :) Tomorrow is the big day.

I am going to skip installing this one on my home. I am going to install it right at my shoppe.

As I stated earlier, We have a 4 ton AC, and a 90k btu furnace with that nice big frakin blower on it, that runs quite a bit throughout the day to keep our shoppe cool. I got July's electric bill of $250, not as bad as I would have though, seeing as it was record tempetatures, but will see what it's at end of next month.
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Do the Do!

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Mon, 07 Aug 2006 21:39:34 EDT

SparkChaser : I'm 99.9% sure it's a big box o'caps.

Probably oil filled and the price of oil is up ;)

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Mon, 07 Aug 2006 20:21:18 EDT

rockotman : I am sure it is more complex than just a box of caps. At least I hope it is for the price being asked.

You can use active rectification and some internal energy storage to create a through-device that will draw current (as seen by the source) that is in phase with the source voltage, while allowing the load to draw whatever current it demands (within reason, of course).
--
Is there anybody out there?

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Mon, 07 Aug 2006 20:08:28 EDT

SparkChaser :

said by Splitpair :

I have my reservations. If one wants to correct power factor with caps one needs to have a base to work from and normally this involves a large inductive load running continuously. Otherwise the current passed thru the caps while the load is off-line could easily eat up any savings.

Wayne

That's what I've been thinking. If it's not across the motor (i.e. switched on and off with it.), the load will go capacitive every time the motor is turned off. The current will just lead instead of lag. It should be an interesting experiment :)

Ron
--
My computer has more memory than I do!

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Mon, 07 Aug 2006 18:56:18 EDT

Splitpair :

said by Anonuser :

He doubts it will save up to 25% unless you are running multuple AC's or large ventilation fans, such that you would find in a resturaunt kitchen, but he said I will save some money.

We'll see @_@

I have my reservations. If one wants to correct power factor with caps one needs to have a base to work from and normally this involves a large inductive load running continuously. Otherwise the current passed thru the caps while the load is off-line could easily eat up any savings.

Wayne
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician.

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Mon, 07 Aug 2006 15:27:31 EDT

jig : it wasn't the starting cap. unless they install two of them.

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Mon, 07 Aug 2006 06:17:29 EDT

rockotman :

said by jig :

by the way, taking apart my furnace fan this past week, it seems that it is power factor corrected at the fan.

Ummm - if you're seeing a cap there, that is probably just a starting cap...
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Is there anybody out there?

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Mon, 07 Aug 2006 01:26:57 EDT

jig : by the way, taking apart my furnace fan this past week, it seems that it is power factor corrected at the fan.

still haven't checked the ac compressor and condenser fan, probably won't..
--
A man compounded of law and gospel is able to cheat a whole country with his religion and then destroy them under color of law. -Ben Franklin

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Mon, 07 Aug 2006 00:23:04 EDT

McSummation :

said by SparkChaser :

I had to look up the patent claim since (as bad as our patent office is and it is :) ) I could not see how you could get a patent on ...

The patent office is so screwed up you can get a patent on almost anything. Ever see the patent for the "blinking cursor". Yep, there is one.

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Mon, 07 Aug 2006 00:14:02 EDT

Anonuser : We'l find out exactly if it works or not on tuesday. I called up my old electrical instructor (The Electrical Inspector for the city), and he says they do work. He doubts it will save up to 25% unless you are running multuple AC's or large ventilation fans, such that you would find in a resturaunt kitchen, but he said I will save some money.

We'll see @_@
--
Do the Do!

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sun, 06 Aug 2006 23:56:34 EDT

anon : you are so right about the proprietor of this site and all the others he has con man know from experience

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Thu, 03 Aug 2006 14:31:29 EDT

jig : i just got hit with a 4 day ups delay on the last part i need for a water system re-pipe. the tracking page says it was a train delay. the delay seems to only have been a day, not sure how that translates into 4 days later....

i also just had a dhl delivery of some house insulation material. they left it outside the front door, my guess is because they had punctured the material in a couple places and didn't want to get in an argument while on the route. pthpt.
--
A man compounded of law and gospel is able to cheat a whole country with his religion and then destroy them under color of law. -Ben Franklin

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Thu, 03 Aug 2006 14:15:52 EDT

Anonuser : Thanks for the article jig.

Looks like I have to wait until the 8th for the unit, called DHL, and it's still waiting in California, they havent even started moving it from the shipping Depot yet! :(

ARGG!!!

This is the second time i've used DHL, and seems both times, they have screwed up, and delayed shipment by a week!

I am going to probially take a stroll over to the Rants forum now :(
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Do the Do!

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Thu, 03 Aug 2006 13:54:10 EDT

jig : i thought this was a good article on the subject:

»www.dansdata.com/gz028.htm

i thin, though i'm not sure, that most appliances in the home have passive power correction built in. i'm almost positive refrigerators do, and pretty sure the fan in furnaces do, pretty sure that attic fans do not, same with most if not all plug in fans and maybe ceiling fans. and, interestingly enough, i have no idea if the residential AC compressor motor and cooling fan are power corrected. would be nice if they were... BUT, i don't think our power bill takes PC into account, so i don't think it would save us any money to have it.
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A man compounded of law and gospel is able to cheat a whole country with his religion and then destroy them under color of law. -Ben Franklin

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Thu, 03 Aug 2006 10:31:38 EDT

Anonuser : Hopefully it will arrive today. The seller used DHL, and to reduce shipping costs (I have no argument against that), used some strange DHL method of shipping, that goes ground accross the us (From Cali to Wisconsin), then once it gets here, it gets dropped off at the county's main Post Office (by Mitchell Int. Airport), then gets transfered to my local post office, then delivered by the mail carrier. Takes longer, harder to determine exact date of delivery :( But she said projected is today, so, pray :P ^_^
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Do the Do!

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Thu, 03 Aug 2006 06:26:29 EDT

SparkChaser :

said by Anonuser :

Interesting news review:
This is for the KVAR unit, which is the same as the power save 1200

Interesting vid, thanks.

I had to look up the patent claim since (as bad as our patent office is and it is :) ) I could not see how you could get a patent on power factor correction. The patent is is for (quoting the patent) "it is an object of this invention to provide an apparatus and method of use to determine capacitance required to optimize power factor in single phase installations" it's here if anybody is interested.

»patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Pars···/5440442

Today is the day Anon, it should be arriving. Let's get that baby hooked up :)
--
My computer has more memory than I do!

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Wed, 02 Aug 2006 23:49:19 EDT

Anonuser : Interesting news review:

This is for the KVAR unit, which is the same as the power save 1200

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=PapMwstQ7Ks
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Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Tue, 01 Aug 2006 02:01:22 EDT

anon : The reply from NASA:

"Thanks for the heads up. I will forward it to our legal office."

I'll hold off on a final judgement, but the logo useage doesn't look good.

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sun, 30 Jul 2006 14:32:03 EDT

Anonuser : Arg, wont be delivered until August 3rd :(
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Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 29 Jul 2006 16:32:20 EDT

Anonuser : Brand new buildout that was completed the beginning of the summer. This is a business I am talking about, not my house.

80 Gallon high recovery rate electric water heater- the building is condo'd out, and the association wouldnt let us put more holes through to the outside, so we had to do electric. on top of needing electric, we need high recovery rate to compensate for the high use of hot water we have.

4 ton AC, it gets very hot in here with all the people, equipment, hair dryers, and other missl equipment we have.
90,000 btu furnace is gas luckly, but it has one big blower to move the air around the shoppe.

on the contrary, we have a new high efficency AC unit, high Efficency furnace, and a High Efficency Water Heater, but electric water heaters, especially high recovery rate, use a lot of power!.

I also forgot about the Capichino machine, that has it's own built in water heater. I keep the water heater and capichino machine on timers, to turn on 20 minutes before the shoppe opens and shut off 30 minutes before we close.

The water heater is very insulated. I heated it up to test it a week before our grand opening, I shut it off once the test was over, and 5 days later, the water was still warm. Not hot, but useable!.

Point i'm trying to get accross, is that Businesses use A LOT OF REASOURCES! ^_^
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Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 29 Jul 2006 15:33:18 EDT

anon :

even if it saves 4-5% on my bill, that means I will have it paid for in 6 months with the savings (We have 200 amp service, and at times, use quite a bit of it with the Ac and water heater running)

It seems that you need a full energy audit to identify wasteful old appliances.
Properly insulated Water heater, high efficiency AC, and active drive AC motors for your fans would save a lot more.

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 29 Jul 2006 11:48:30 EDT

Anonuser : No, wife and myself own a nail and hair salon :( I will be test it on monday night if it comes on time, DHL seems to have delayed shipment along one of the stopps :(

I'm installing this in my home first, give er a try, if it works, i'm going to move it to our shoppe, which uses quite a bit of electric. Air brush compressors, hair dryers, 80 gallon electric water heater, capichino machine, tv's, 4 ton AC unit with a 90,000 btu furnace, and exhaust fans up the wazoo :(

even if it saves 4-5% on my bill, that means I will have it paid for in 6 months with the savings :D (We have 200 amp service, and at times, use quite a bit of it with the Ac and water heater running)
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Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 29 Jul 2006 11:42:25 EDT

SparkChaser : Okay Anonuser, you're the test subject. We're going to expect a full report, spreadsheet, powerpoint, the works. I hope you have off Monday to work on this :D

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 29 Jul 2006 10:23:34 EDT

Anonuser : They want you to fill a text box out to request the form, I sent in my request for the form, probially get that monday due to it being weekend.
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Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 29 Jul 2006 08:04:38 EDT

Splitpair :

said by Anonuser :

Their is a $500 tax credit, so I am giving it a try.

Where's that at?

Wayne
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Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 29 Jul 2006 07:59:06 EDT

Splitpair :

said by SparkChaser :

Still not sure about this one :)

Anyway this looks like the mfg site »www.power-save.com/product.html it has more info

That other site looks a bit questionable, as was pointed out, with their generous use of logos.

Aside from the fact that what they call a DOE report which supposedly supports the concept of their product is working with 100's of Kw's I think the key words in the report are "capacitor suppliers and engineering firms can provide the assistance you may need to determine the optimum power correction factor and to correctly locate and install capacitors in your electrical system."

As such just buying a box of caps and connecting it to the breaker panel may or may not have a positive effect on ones electric bill.

Wayne

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Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 29 Jul 2006 06:30:27 EDT

SparkChaser : Still not sure about this one :)

Anyway this looks like the mfg site »www.power-save.com/product.html it has more info

That other site looks a bit questionable, as was pointed out, with their generous use of logos.

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 29 Jul 2006 02:08:19 EDT

anon : Specifications:
- Single Phase
- Utilizes Self-Healing Low Loss Capacitors
- 20 Year Design Life
- Surge Suppression – 2000 Joules

The unit appears to be a plastic capacitor bank.

I call BS. Besides, PFC is a EU thing that has never been an issue in the US, unless maybe you have a demand meter.

Unlike RoHS PF correction is a universal problem. Mandatory compliance could have prevented blackouts.

My TV runs with a PF of .88 and uses 120 watts. My trintron uses 200-ish watts, fluctuates Greatly, and the PF is .60

A capacitor bank does not correct rectifier type loads which may be more damaging than inductive type loads.

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 29 Jul 2006 00:37:21 EDT

anon : Hmmm, my understanding was that NASA didn't allow the use of it's logo for the endorsement of any product: »www.nasa.gov/audience/formedia/f···nes.html

Any which way, I emailed the NASA contact for logo useage, to check on that.

I call BS. Besides, PFC is a EU thing that has never been an issue in the US, unless maybe you have a demand meter. Unlikely as those are usually only for a bussiness. Not to mention that a UL listing means little, if it atleast had an ETL, CE, or even better a TUV listing, I might think otherwise.

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 29 Jul 2006 00:36:12 EDT

McSummation :

quote:
Things like electric water heaters, what would that be?

Resistive load.

Electric dryers are mostly resistive, although the motor is inductive.

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Sat, 29 Jul 2006 00:18:30 EDT

Anonuser : If it increased the power factor, then it may help me out a bit.

Checked the PF on my 5k btu window AC in my bedroom, and it runs with the PF fluctuating between .78 and .85 It is also a high efficency AC. Although, it runs with that PF, it uses a sustained 354watts of power.

My TV runs with a PF of .88 and uses 120 watts. My trintron uses 200-ish watts, fluctuates Greatly, and the PF is .60

The full size high efficency fridge in the kitchen, has a PF of .92 and uses 100 watts when the compressor is running, and 130 watts when the door is open and the light is on.

I could not test the dryer, as it is 240v 40 amp, but I'm sure it sucks pleanty :P

I will hopefully find out monday or tuesday if the device works or not, if my meters dont measure properly with it on, then I will have to wait until my next bill. We have been using the AC's quite a bit with this heat, MUCH more power used then last month. So if our bill is similiar, lower, or real close, then it works!
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Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Fri, 28 Jul 2006 23:28:32 EDT

IllIlIlllIll :

said by Anonuser :

I put a green plug on my grandmothers old freezer years ago, and her monthly bill dropped about $60.

Inductive loads would be motors correct? Things like electric water heaters, what would that be?

didnt they stop making those "green plugs" because of the fire risks involved ?
i had a few of them, they arent really anything short of a high current variac/triac circuit.
the ones i had, i modified with better heat sinks to help dissipate the heat.
there was also a "running" voltage calibration control which i set to a lesser voltage than what it was set at, i think 109v from 119.
they work, but dont expect a refrigerator or a/c unit to work any better with it.
they work great for motors, increasing the current supplied if needed, sort of like a regulation circuit, only using needed current to get the "job" done.
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Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Fri, 28 Jul 2006 23:23:08 EDT

IllIlIlllIll :

said by Anonuser :

I called in and asked, it attaches to the whole house, not a single circut. They told me 200 amp rating, so the site was probially a typo.

than i would imagine this things is big, bulky and very heavy, besides expensive.
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Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Fri, 28 Jul 2006 23:21:33 EDT

Anonuser : I called in and asked, it attaches to the whole house, not a single circut. They told me 20ampier storage capicity, the unit itself handles up to 200 amp incomming service.
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Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Fri, 28 Jul 2006 23:19:52 EDT

Anonuser : I put a green plug on my grandmothers old freezer years ago, and her monthly bill dropped about $60.

Inductive loads would be motors correct? Things like electric water heaters, what would that be?
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Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Fri, 28 Jul 2006 23:13:28 EDT

McSummation : It only has a 20 A rating. That's a single residential house circuit. Normally not much inductive load on those circuits anyway - fridge or washer.

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Fri, 28 Jul 2006 23:10:09 EDT

rockotman : Hmmmm... seems like the proprietor, Fred Council IV, is into other businesses as well...

»www.teamopportunityonetravelbiz.com/

Not only can you save money on your electricity, you can start your own travel business.

Go fred.

Google "Fred Council". He is into al kind of money making businesses.

Didn't you think to ask yourself why someone would be selling such a great money saver for over 40% off of the retail price?
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Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Fri, 28 Jul 2006 23:08:49 EDT

IllIlIlllIll : this sounds like another one of those devices like the "green plug".
dont they have a larger picture of it ?
i couldnt find any.

Re: Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Fri, 28 Jul 2006 23:04:06 EDT

rockotman : Sounds like a cap bank to me. It states that the unit stores "reactive power".

Large electricity users with loads that draw a huge starting current can benefit by using them to correct the power factor and answer demand current during load start-up. Industrial electric utility customers are generally charged not only based on K-watts consumed, but also based on peak demand, as determined by a demand meter which monitors for large starting currents. These starting currents represent reactive power, but nonetheless result in real power losses throughout the utility's infrastructure as copper losses, requiring larger sized transformers and conductors throughout the infrastructure.

I seriously doubt that the typical homeowner could benefit from such a device, as the homeowner really doesn't have highly inductive loads to start. I wouldn't qualify a central AC unit or a refrigerator as a highly inductive load. At least tno compared to the types of loads that the utility companies worry about.

On the other hand, it could be a power-factor correcting inverter, that makes the load of your house, no matter what the overall power factor may be, look pretty much like a unity power factor to the utility. I still don't see it saving the homeowner much, as the typical house is pretty close to a unity power factor already - motor loads do make it slightly lagging, but I would think to not much more that 0.8 or 0.9.
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Power Save 1200 ----Any one have experience this product?

Fri, 28 Jul 2006 22:52:15 EDT

Anonuser : »www.savepoweramerica.com/

Anyone here have experience with this product? I've been searching for reviews and such, but do not find many.

Their is a $500 tax credit, so I am giving it a try. I got a new unit on ebay from a distributor for about $200 less then they sell it on their site, so when it arrives on monday, I will hook it up and plug in my testers, give it a wirl, see what my lines power factor is and total wattage/amperage running some AC Units, a few Trintron monitors, fridge, toaster oven and cloths dryer ^_^

Thanks all!
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