Re: Conflict of interest? Maybe... in http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r16757075 en Sun, 06 Dec 2009 02:14:49 EDT Sun, 06 Dec 2009 02:14:49 EDT Re: Conflict of interest? Maybe... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16762630 Karl Bode :
quote:
As has been said time and time again, reasonable regulation is fine.
That hasn't been said time and time again by these groups. They want the elimination of all regulation. They desire a government that is utterly toothless in enforcing laws on all fronts. They believe corporations should have absolute freedom to do as they see fit. They do not desire reasonable regulation, they desire no regulation in order to maximize revenue for shareholders and owners.

My point, again, pretty simply is that this is not consumer advocacy. It's on the completely opposite end of the scale from consumer advocacy. Labeling it such isn't only lying, it's insulting.

Whether you can legislate morality or cure idiocy via regulation is a different argument we probably agree upon. Cultivating competition in the telecom sector via regulation is yet another conversation.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16762630 Wed, 23 Aug 2006 08:53:59 EDT Re: Conflict of interest? Maybe... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16762567 yock :
said by Karl Bode See Profile :

quote:
You have this notion that de-regulating an industry is in some way "giving" corporations something. In fact, you're simply removing roadblocks to profitability. Sure, they'll do business precisely where they want, at what price they want, and that's it...

Doesn't that make perfect sense?

Deregulation absolutely gives Corporations something. The ability to slide on environmental pollution. The ability to lie in advertisements without repercussion. The ability to obscure true prices. The ability to merge without consequence with media companies, allowing undue influence on news. The ability to pass off PR as news segments.

Reasonable regulation is not poison, and total and complete deregulation is not consumer advocacy. Consumer advocacy is accountability and reasonable regulation, not some wishy washy trickle down theory disproven back in the 80's, and spun by think tanks as good for grandma.

That's nonsense.
As has been said time and time again, reasonable regulation is fine. the purest forms of any economic system simply do not work. Where I get upset is when I start hearing about all this stuff the government is supposed to be doing to protect us. I don't know where you're coming from, but I don't need nor want a lot of protection. I'm intent upon decisions with my money based on personal observation, simply because I'm smarter than anyone else when it comes to things that directly impact me.

If others have no problem with Verizon or are simply ignorant to their exploits then that's just tough. American consumerism is ravenous and stupid, and it isn't just big business that exploits that on a daily basis. No amount of regulation will produce a smarter consumer and no amount of regulation will correct the market for that stupidity either. Reasonable regulation comes in providing incentives for personal investment, protecting nature and ecosystems, and penalizing monopolistic business practices. Government has no business influencing price or location.
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quote:
You have this notion that de-regulating an industry is in some way "giving" corporations something. In fact, you're simply removing roadblocks to profitability. Sure, they'll do business precisely where they want, at what price they want, and that's it...

Doesn't that make perfect sense?

No. It sounds like you've had your head filled with rhetoric by someone.

Deregulation absolutely gives Corporations something. The ability to slide on environmental pollution. The ability to lie in advertisements without repercussion. The ability to obscure true prices. The ability to merge without consequence with media companies, allowing undue influence on news. The ability to pass off PR as news segments.

Reasonable regulation is not poison, and total and complete deregulation is not consumer advocacy. Consumer advocacy is accountability and reasonable regulation, not some wishy washy trickle down theory disproven back in the 80's, and spun by think tanks as good for grandma.

That's nonsense.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16762332 Wed, 23 Aug 2006 07:18:42 EDT Re: Conflict of interest? Maybe... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16761907 bmn :
said by yock See Profile :

Consumers are only powerless when they have no choices and no alternatives.
No, because even with choices and alternatives, you can have market collusion between players.

Show your "power" by not buying their products, and if necessary just go without a particular good or service.
The providers wouldn't give a shit anyway if you or I walked... Their churn rates would mask the affect of people who elect to take that method and no difference would come from it.

If you can't live without internet access, then the market is charging what it will bear.
Considering how the telecom market works, to say that market forces are determining price points is to be out of touch with the telecom sector.
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—Dwight Eisenhower]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16761907 Wed, 23 Aug 2006 02:50:30 EDT Re: Conflict of interest? Maybe... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16761873 bmn :
said by LegoPower77 See Profile :

said by bmn See Profile :

Too bad the concept of "onerous government regulation" can't objectively be drawn in the sand. There is no way to factually establish when such a point is reached.
That's what political arguments like this one are for, buck.
Yeah, but since politics is bullshit and political discussions are bullshit discussions, nothing of value comes from them.

said by bmn See Profile :

As for opposing "onerous government regulation" being "consumer advocacy," the problem is that people who typically oppose "onerous government regulation" present ideas and solutions that leave business holding all the power and consumers out in the cold. In other words, screwing one pooch to help another.
Ah yes, the eeevil bogeyman business. People get profit from serving people. Also, people are scared of things they don't understand; do I sense fear in your point of view?
You sense nothing... You make stuff up. I understand the conflict of interest between for profit groups offer services and those who purchase services. The interests of both parties are contradictory.
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"Extremes to the right and left of any political dispute are always wrong."
—Dwight Eisenhower]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16761873 Wed, 23 Aug 2006 02:41:20 EDT Re: Conflict of interest? Maybe... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16761831 LegoPower77 :
said by bmn See Profile :

Too bad the concept of "onerous government regulation" can't objectively be drawn in the sand. There is no way to factually establish when such a point is reached.
That's what political arguments like this one are for, buck.

said by bmn See Profile :

As for opposing "onerous government regulation" being "consumer advocacy," the problem is that people who typically oppose "onerous government regulation" present ideas and solutions that leave business holding all the power and consumers out in the cold. In other words, screwing one pooch to help another.
Ah yes, the eeevil bogeyman business. People get profit from serving people. Also, people are scared of things they don't understand; do I sense fear in your point of view?
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"It is a melancholy reflection that liberty should be equally exposed to danger whether the government have too much or too little power."—James Madison
It's right, it's free.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16761831 Wed, 23 Aug 2006 02:27:36 EDT Re: Conflict of interest? Maybe... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16761793 LegoPower77 : Damn, man. The government needs to do everything.

There are reasons we're supposedly low on broadband progress (whatever that means). The main one being population density. I guess we could have a massive public works project to give the 10 people who live in Montana 100 mbs like they have in Hong Kong, but is that a good use of federal money?

Like was said before, when you choose to live somewhere, you have costs and benefits. I think, since I live in the Washington Metropolitan Area, that Montanans should subsidize my rent. How about that? Is that a wise use of the Treasury.

Also, there are reasons why most of this stuff is invented here. One being because compared to the rest of the world, we have the free-er markets. Even communist Russia had to piggyback on the free market pricing system to tell the commissars what output to produce.
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"It is a melancholy reflection that liberty should be equally exposed to danger whether the government have too much or too little power."—James Madison
It's right, it's free.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16761793 Wed, 23 Aug 2006 02:17:36 EDT Re: Conflict of interest? Maybe... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16761586 yock : Consumers are only powerless when they have no choices and no alternatives. Show your "power" by not buying their products, and if necessary just go without a particular good or service.

If you can't live without internet access, then the market is charging what it will bear.
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Laughter is the closest distance between two people. --Victor Borge]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16761586 Wed, 23 Aug 2006 01:20:47 EDT Re: Conflict of interest? Maybe... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16761508 bmn :
said by TKJunkMail See Profile :

A business environment without onerous government regulation is GOOD for the consumer. So, in effect, it is consumer advocacy.
Too bad the concept of "onerous government regulation" can't objectively be drawn in the sand. There is no way to factually establish when such a point is reached.

As for opposing "onerous government regulation" being "consumer advocacy," the problem is that people who typically oppose "onerous government regulation" present ideas and solutions that leave business holding all the power and consumers out in the cold. In other words, screwing one pooch to help another.
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"Extremes to the right and left of any political dispute are always wrong."
—Dwight Eisenhower]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16761508 Wed, 23 Aug 2006 01:07:22 EDT Re: Conflict of interest? Maybe... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16760961 yock : We've never experienced de-regulated telecom, so I don't know where you're coming from. In fact, you've demonstrated why it is so perilous for government to regulate commerce in this country. Had government-sanctioned monopolies not occurred in telecom then perhaps we would see a more diverse collection of CLECs and a more stable oligopoly of ILECs than what we have now.
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Laughter is the closest distance between two people. --Victor Borge]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16760961 Tue, 22 Aug 2006 23:21:12 EDT Re: Conflict of interest? Maybe... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16760622 nasadude :
said by yock See Profile :

You have this notion that de-regulating an industry is in some way "giving" corporations something. In fact, you're simply removing roadblocks to profitability. Sure, they'll do business precisely where they want, at what price they want, and that's it...

Doesn't that make perfect sense?

Corporations aren't purveyors of goodwill, they aren't charitable, and they sure as hell aren't looking out for anyone but themselves. Why should they? It's business.

If consumers would work harder to be better informed, and actually act on the disgust they find in the actions of corporate America, then corporate America would feel the penalties for their actions where it matters: their bottom line.

Uncle Sam has no business dictating where I, you, or Verizon does business.
that's the most incredible thing I've ever seen anybody post on this site. You apparently have no knowledge of the history of the ILECs and legislation that has affected the telecom business.

The incumbent telcos and cablecos were government granted monopolies. The 1996 telecom bill wasn't enforced very well (at all? half-heartedly?) and competition couldn't surmount the obstacles the ILECs put in their way. The telecom industry is back to monopoly/duopoly status. In my case, monopoly status - my only choice for broadband is comcast; no dsl, no fiber.

The current environment of deregulation has allowed the incumbents to once again dictate the price of broadband and the pace of progress. Now ranked 13th? or is it 16th? I forget, but it's not very high. That's what our policies of the last 10yrs have gotten us - from #1 in broadband in the world to 13th (or 16th).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16760622 Tue, 22 Aug 2006 22:27:54 EDT Re: Conflict of interest? Maybe... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16759153 yock :
said by Karl Bode See Profile :

You have to wait for the trickle down effect I guess?

I don't know.

The plan:

Step 1: Give corporations everything they want.

Step 2: ???

Step 3: Consumer's win!

Sounds utterly fool proof to me.
You have this notion that de-regulating an industry is in some way "giving" corporations something. In fact, you're simply removing roadblocks to profitability. Sure, they'll do business precisely where they want, at what price they want, and that's it...

Doesn't that make perfect sense?

Corporations aren't purveyors of goodwill, they aren't charitable, and they sure as hell aren't looking out for anyone but themselves. Why should they? It's business.

If consumers would work harder to be better informed, and actually act on the disgust they find in the actions of corporate America, then corporate America would feel the penalties for their actions where it matters: their bottom line.

Uncle Sam has no business dictating where I, you, or Verizon does business.
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Laughter is the closest distance between two people. --Victor Borge]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16759153 Tue, 22 Aug 2006 19:01:48 EDT Re: Conflict of interest? Maybe... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16758612 Karl Bode : You have to wait for the trickle down effect I guess?

I don't know.

The plan:

Step 1: Give corporations everything they want.

Step 2: ???

Step 3: Consumer's win!

Sounds utterly fool proof to me.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16758612 Tue, 22 Aug 2006 17:51:06 EDT Re: Conflict of interest? Maybe... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16758520 nasadude :
said by TKJunkMail See Profile :

A business environment without onerous government regulation is GOOD for the consumer. So, in effect, it is consumer advocacy.
doesn't seem to be working too good for broadband.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16758520 Tue, 22 Aug 2006 17:37:49 EDT Re: Conflict of interest? Maybe... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16757851 disc :
said by TKJunkMail See Profile :

A business environment without onerous government regulation is GOOD for the consumer. So, in effect, it is consumer advocacy.
[Sarcasm]
And who better to advocate for consumers than businesses, no?

Of course, the real risk is that companies will overdo it and forget about their poor stock holders. What a difficult balance they must strike.
[/Sarcasm]]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16757851 Tue, 22 Aug 2006 16:03:47 EDT Re: Conflict of interest? Maybe... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16757644 yock :
said by plat2on1 See Profile :

said by djeremy See Profile :

Encourage small business to lease lines from the major carriers and resell to rural customers. If rural customers pickup the service, then excellent! If they don't, then the market has spoken.


Isn't this exactly what the bells are fighting in court? The do not want to lease their lines.

»www.techweb.com/wire/ebiz/192201257
no..they want to not be forced to lease their lines at BELOW cost
Indeed, telecom providers should be allowed to charge a fair price for leased lines. It must be profitable for them to do it, else we're right back where we started.
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Laughter is the closest distance between two people. --Victor Borge]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16757644 Tue, 22 Aug 2006 15:35:09 EDT Re: Conflict of interest? Maybe... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16757497 djeremy : you honestly believe that? at&t and verizon have done everything they can to wipe out the competition including merging and acquiring.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16757497 Tue, 22 Aug 2006 15:11:25 EDT Re: Conflict of interest? Maybe... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16757371 plat2on1 :
said by djeremy See Profile :

Encourage small business to lease lines from the major carriers and resell to rural customers. If rural customers pickup the service, then excellent! If they don't, then the market has spoken.


Isn't this exactly what the bells are fighting in court? The do not want to lease their lines.

»www.techweb.com/wire/ebiz/192201257
no..they want to not be forced to lease their lines at BELOW cost]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16757371 Tue, 22 Aug 2006 14:51:34 EDT Re: Conflict of interest? Maybe... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16757217 Karl Bode :
quote:
A business environment without onerous government regulation is GOOD for the consumer. So, in effect, it is consumer advocacy.
Nice try.

However warping reality to fit your financially motivated argument does not actually change reality.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16757217 Tue, 22 Aug 2006 14:29:27 EDT Re: Conflict of interest? Maybe... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16757194 djeremy :
Encourage small business to lease lines from the major carriers and resell to rural customers. If rural customers pickup the service, then excellent! If they don't, then the market has spoken.


Isn't this exactly what the bells are fighting in court? The do not want to lease their lines.

»www.techweb.com/wire/ebiz/192201257]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16757194 Tue, 22 Aug 2006 14:26:45 EDT Re: Conflict of interest? Maybe... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16757187 TKJunkMail :
said by Karl Bode See Profile :

quote:
So this guy doesn't exactly have a background that lends credibility to his position, but holding against him the fact that he campaigns against government regulation of commerce is far from a negative.

It's not the campaigning against regulation that's a problem, it's doing it under the guise of consumer advocacy. Lazy press picks this stuff up as independent and objective research, when it's really political PR.
A business environment without onerous government regulation is GOOD for the consumer. So, in effect, it is consumer advocacy.
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Laughter is the closest distance between two people. --Victor Borge]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16757075 Tue, 22 Aug 2006 14:07:23 EDT Re: Conflict of interest? Maybe... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16756996 Karl Bode : I don't assasinate the argument. I assasinate the pretense of consumer advocacy. And it's no assumption. I spent half of yesterday digging into the site and Pociask, and can promise you they're as much consumer advocates as you are yodeler.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16756996 Tue, 22 Aug 2006 13:54:26 EDT Re: Conflict of interest? Maybe... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16756968 yock :
said by Karl Bode See Profile :

quote:
So this guy doesn't exactly have a background that lends credibility to his position, but holding against him the fact that he campaigns against government regulation of commerce is far from a negative.

It's not the campaigning against regulation that's a problem, it's the pretense that it is being done under the guise of consumer advocacy.
No, you assume that it's being done under some guise. I'll grant you that you're probably right and this guy is likely just a sleazeball, but I'm not ready to assassinate his entire argument simply based on his industry affiliation.
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Laughter is the closest distance between two people. --Victor Borge]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16756968 Tue, 22 Aug 2006 13:50:40 EDT Re: Conflict of interest? Maybe... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16756948 Karl Bode :
quote:
So this guy doesn't exactly have a background that lends credibility to his position, but holding against him the fact that he campaigns against government regulation of commerce is far from a negative.

It's not the campaigning against regulation that's a problem, it's doing it under the guise of consumer advocacy. Lazy press picks this stuff up as independent and objective research, when it's really political PR.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16756948 Tue, 22 Aug 2006 13:47:22 EDT Conflict of interest? Maybe... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16756919 yock : So this guy doesn't exactly have a background that lends credibility to his position, but holding against him the fact that he campaigns against government regulation of commerce is far from a negative. One need not look any further than New York City Rent Control policies of mere decades ago to see the pooch-screwing that is possible when government meddles in the free market.

The notion lately that telecom companies must sign franchise agreements *REQUIRING* them to build out is simply outlandish. We all make trade-offs when we choose to settle in certain parts of the country. If I choose to live in East Jesus, USA, then I should be cognizant of the notion that I may not be able to get high-speed data access.

There's also the opportunity here for small entrepreneurs to capitalize on a moderate risk investment. If the demand truly exists in rural areas, then savvy business persons can do business in those niche markets far more efficiently than Mama Bell and her Timely sibling could ever dream of. Encourage small business to lease lines from the major carriers and resell to rural customers. If rural customers pickup the service, then excellent! If they don't, then the market has spoken.
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Laughter is the closest distance between two people. --Victor Borge]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16756919 Tue, 22 Aug 2006 13:44:45 EDT