Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal in Security

Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Sat, 09 Sep 2006 22:47:25 EDT

dave : The thing that really ticks me off about hackers is not that they engage in criminal activities, but that they aren't properly attired when they're doing it.

Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Sat, 09 Sep 2006 22:02:49 EDT

Cudni : so not a hacker just a criminal?

Cudni

Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Sat, 09 Sep 2006 21:58:41 EDT

44402812 :

said by Daniel :

A Hacker is a bad guy—someone trying to break into computers with the intent of causing harm. Don’t argue with it, and stop fighting it. It's time for those in the security community to stop with the stubborn romantization of the word and start accepting what it means today.
We all know about the hacker vs. cracker debate; it’s a particularly lively one that leaves its droppings all over the Internet. There are two main sides: those that use hacker in a popular, negative light, and those that demand the use of the term “cracker” instead of hacker when referring to a criminal. Those on this side offer an argument that goes something like this:

A hacker is not a criminal. A hacker is someone who seeks to understand their trade (usually computers). Through this understanding they are able to change how certain things work. They face obstacles by “hacking” solutions rather than accepting limitations. They are simply creative people using their understanding of a given system to solve problems. Unfortunately, the media are trying to hijack the term and turn it into something malicious. We mustn’t let them.

I know this argument well. I know it because I’ve made it dozens of times, both online and in real-world conversation. I was one of those who went out of his way to correct those who misused the Holy term. I gave the speech whenever it was needed, like a knight protecting his maiden’s name. But no more.

Language

Words and definitions are not as well-defined or unchanging as most believe. A cursory glance at any dictionary will reveal hundreds of words that used to mean something else. This is what's currently happening to the word hacker.

Words actually mean what people think they mean, not what they’re “supposed" to mean. In fact, the very concept of “supposed to mean” is a silly one. A dictionary is little more than a time-sensitive collection of the way words are currently being used.

That being said, we in the geek world have lost the war for the word hacker. It already means something else, i.e. a computer criminal. Hacker means criminal because that’s what most people think it means. It really is that simple.

It's Time To Let It Go

So I implore you, fellow geeks of the world who know and love what hacker used to mean: Let it go. Just let it go.
Remember, it doesn't mean hacker completely lost its original, pure meaning. We in the community can still use it the "real" way amongst ourselves. But when a muggle uses it the ~~wrong~~ new way, resist the temptation to go into the speech. You know what he meant, and everyone else listening did too. So the word did it's job.

If you absolutely must say something, offer them some advice on how to secure their home network, or maybe explain why they should use Firefox instead of IE. Believe me, it’ll do more good.:

CRIMINAL
CRIMINAL
You god d!@# right
I'm a CRIMINAL
Yeah, I'm a CRIMINAL

Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Sat, 09 Sep 2006 21:44:04 EDT

whizkid3 : On the other hand...

Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Wed, 06 Sep 2006 16:42:50 EDT

Steve :

said by Martinus :

And no. I'm not gay. Just for the record.

not that there'd be anything wrong with that... :-)

Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Wed, 06 Sep 2006 11:20:13 EDT

Martinus :

said by Mele20 :

...and it is during the downfall of a once proud society that homosexuality becomes common and accepted.

Homosexuality was common and accepted during the rise, top and fall of the ancient Greek civilization, the same civilization that gave us your beloved Plato, Aristotle and, of course, the best of all, Socrates.

Homosexuality was also very common in Renaissance Florence, where rumour has it that many artists, including Leonardo and Michelangelo, were actively engaged in its practice.

I wouldn't draw a straight line between homosexuality - or rather its acceptance - and the decline of a civilization. It's probably the opposite. In Saudi Arabia and Iran you can get killed for being homosexual, and I don't see those two societies going anywhere. They can't decline any more.

And no. I'm not gay. Just for the record.
--
El que la hace la paga

Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Wed, 06 Sep 2006 10:46:12 EDT

Daniel : I don't think Mele20 is insane or stupid; her quoting of God as her authority wasn't in the fanatic sense, I don't think. And the discussion of the nature of rhetoric is actually quite interesting. Let's try and counter her argument with logic.

Mele20, what do you say to the fact that the word "nice" used to mean something else? A pretty much completely different meaning, mind you. This was not due to a downfall of civilization, nor did it cause one.

People started using it differently. The word changed. That's all. There is no cause for alarm. I agree it would be better if this didn't happen, i.e. if everyone was so civilized and educated as to be able to use all words precisely, thus preventing the evolution of language.

But that's not going to happen, and I don't think it's going to cause the sky to fall either. Do you? Really?
--
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Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Wed, 06 Sep 2006 08:46:15 EDT

dave :

said by Mele20 :

My authority is (...)

Yeah, yeah. But all that fantasy aside, consider this:

The process by which 'computer' has come to mean a programmable electronic logico-arithmetical machine is precisely the same as the process by which 'gay' has come to mean 'homosexual'.

What intellectual wriggling allows you to accept one but not the other?

Your ability to point to a dictionary entry does not justify it. I can find a dictionary in which a 'computer' is a person employed to make calculations. Since the word once had that meaning, it must always have that meaning, by the reasoning you have already stated.

You appear to have capitulated without a whimper to this appalling modernism. Why?

Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Wed, 06 Sep 2006 08:43:40 EDT

hpguru :

said by dave :

I was having trouble understanding 'get it'.

According to my desktop OED (not the full thing, I am afraid) the first meaning for 'get it' is 'be punished, scolded, etc.' Which makes no sense. And it's slang, and I'm sure Mele20 wouldn't be using slang.

Well in that case I'm glad I didn't get it. :D
--
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Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Wed, 06 Sep 2006 08:38:03 EDT

dave :

said by hpguru :

said by dave :

said by Mele20 :

You don't get it either do you? People like you are what are killing this nation.

This must be some colloquial use of words that I don't understand.

Yeah - err ah - "Yes". What does she mean by "killing"???

I was having trouble understanding 'get it'.

According to my desktop OED (not the full thing, I am afraid) the first meaning for 'get it' is 'be punished, scolded, etc.' Which makes no sense. And it's slang, and I'm sure Mele20 wouldn't be using slang.

Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Wed, 06 Sep 2006 08:30:55 EDT

hpguru :

said by Mele20 :

My authority is God.

Well what ever smidgen of credibility you had, you just flushed it down the crapper.
--
Get hpHOSTS!

Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Wed, 06 Sep 2006 08:26:52 EDT

hpguru :

said by dave :

said by Mele20 :

You don't get it either do you? People like you are what are killing this nation.

This must be some colloquial use of words that I don't understand.

Yeah - err ah - "Yes". What does she mean by "killing"???
--
Get hpHOSTS!

Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Wed, 06 Sep 2006 08:26:00 EDT

Mele20 : My authority is God. Read Language is Sermonic then you will understand. I am a Platonist not an Aristotelian. There are absolutes according to Plato and language is used to lead mankind toward knowledge of ideal truth unlike Aristotle who taught everything was relative. I am too tired to explain adequately. Plus, I have not taught these concepts in close to 30 years so I am rather rusty in trying to explain them now to those who do not understand and who live by the law of relativism.

I am not arguing that the average person in England or the USA or Canada, etc. does not associate the word "gay" with the homosexuality of males. Of course they do. That is due to the deliberate politicalization of the word by male homosexuals who wish to be disingenous and figure that "gay" is a less emotionally charged term and that they will more easily be able to get "gay" marriage laws passed than homosexual marriage laws. Twist the nature of the act and the naive, sloven thinkers, which are the majority, sadly to say, in this nation and probably also England currently, will come round to endorsing marriage of "gays". We have an illiteracy rate of 70% in the USA, our civilization is in shambles, and it is during the downfall of a once proud society that homosexuality becomes common and accepted. But this nation is not done for yet....there will be one more chance to save it. According to the authors of The Fourth Turning, that chance will come by the mid 2020's.
--
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Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Wed, 06 Sep 2006 08:02:34 EDT

dave :

said by Mele20 :

You don't get it either do you? People like you are what are killing this nation.

This must be some colloquial use of words that I don't understand.

Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Wed, 06 Sep 2006 08:00:46 EDT

Mele20 : You don't get it either do you? People like you are what are killing this nation.

And no, I am not at all feeling "keenly alive and exuberant" at the moment. I am very tired as I have spent about 6 hours now trying to fix Fx beta 2. I finally got it fixed and everyone who says TBE won't work on beta 2 is wrong ...plus my favorite theme which I was told repeatedly won't work does...but it took a lot of effort and I am definitely not "merry mood" at the moment...I am pleased that I had the perserverance to stick with the problem when I was told it was not possible to get TBE working ...but I did...but I had do everything from scratch finally...so I have few extensions installed yet and I have to get some sleep.
--
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Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Wed, 06 Sep 2006 07:56:07 EDT

dave :

said by Nerdtalker :

I'm still steadfastly opposed to the negative connotation that's being given to the word "hacker."

Me too. But it's irrelevant what I think, even if I refuse to utter the word in that sense. Words mean what people think they mean.

Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Wed, 06 Sep 2006 07:51:37 EDT

dave :

said by Mele20 :

[In certain contexts, slang is acceptable but it is still SLANG and not the proper definition.

What is the 'proper' definition? I dispute your view that the 'first entry in the dictionary' is the 'proper' meaning. The numbering merely distinguishes different senses; there is no formal ranking, though it is true that the more common entries are usually presented first.

I'm English. Words mean whatever the English people, as a whole, say they mean. The dictionary reports on consensus. There is no central authority which says what is 'proper' (though it's true we used to defer to the BBC and the Times, but as the former allows regional accents and the latter is in the grip of the Dirty Digger, we are adrift without a rudder).

You're welcome to do, as Humpty Dumpty does, and make words mean whatever you want them to mean. However, don't complain if you're misunderstood.

My authority is the OED. If a recent version of OED says that 'gay' is 'colloq.' then I will agree with you pro tem.

Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Wed, 06 Sep 2006 07:35:46 EDT

hpguru :

said by Mele20 :

I don't care in the slightest what OTHERS think the word means. I know what it means. Others are wrong.

So, are you gay?
--
Get hpHOSTS!

Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Wed, 06 Sep 2006 05:43:05 EDT

Mele20 : You just don't get it do you? I don't care what Google gives me. I care what is right. Go re-read my earlier post ...the one you gave me a thumbs for. Did you not understand it? I am wondering why you gave a thumb and then just wrote the nonsense about what a Google search would report for the word "gay". Our language has NOT retained it "elegance and purity". The deterioration of our dress, habits, and language "denote a people listless, supine, and ripe for servitude". I am fighting that by doing what I can as one individual. That is all I can do but one individual plus another, plus another, leads to perhaps enough of us determined enough that in my life time, when the crisis that will determine the future of our nation hits, we will prevail ...not thinkers like you but those would save this nation from its inexorable slide into decay and ruin.

I suggest that you read Language is Sermonic: Richard M. Weaver on the Nature of Rhetoric (Louisiana State University Press, 1970) to better understand my position. The quote from Milton referring to Platonic concepts of the role of language and rhetoric in a nation came from this book.
--
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Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Wed, 06 Sep 2006 04:10:08 EDT

Daniel :

said by Mele20 :

The FIRST ENTRY which is considered to be the MAIN USE OF THE WORD in Merriam-Webster, which is generally considered the best of the dictionaries, says gay means "happily excited". The LAST definition refers to gay as meaning a homosexual person.

~~Dude.~~ We're talking about reality here. Walk toward the light.

Nobody gives a damn what the dictionary says; the fact that "gay" used to mean "happy" is a piece of trivia to 99.99% of the United States. It's trivia because so few people know it. Seriously, you and reality are conflicting here.

Try typing "gay *" into Google and see what you get back. It's not going to be about "happiness" (unless you're gay, of course). :)
--
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Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Wed, 06 Sep 2006 03:29:29 EDT

caffeinator : Honestly, Hackers don't care what you think.

I've read 2600 and Phrack since before some of you were born. I 'hacked' together a wireless camera system in 1984.

And I've never broken into anything..I could, but I don't.

Google for *.mil passwords, it's educational.

THAT, would make me a hacker in the media sense..because 9/10 of the public can not fathom computers, and thus are scared of those who do. Fear, isn't it fun?

Both founders of Apple were hackers, and proud of it.

You think we would have all this fun tech without "hackers"?

Hell, if IBM had it's way, we'd still be in the 640K barrier running $10k mainframes.

Honestly, I don't give a damn, what John Q. thinks, he's largely undereducated and ignorant anyway.

Hackers, we run the information structure of the world.

Your DSL/Cable...admin'd by hackers. Your Digital TV, same.

Sure, some are asshats, but if you check the boards at neworder, we don't allow those to participate. They are shunned. We tell them NO, we won't tell you how to do illegal things. We persue knowledge.

It's a new world, and we run it. White, Grey, or Black.

Get used to the idea.

-CaFF
--
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Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Wed, 06 Sep 2006 02:56:14 EDT

Mele20 :
The FIRST ENTRY which is considered to be the MAIN USE OF THE WORD in Merriam-Webster, which is generally considered the best of the dictionaries, says gay means "happily excited". The LAST definition refers to gay as meaning a homosexual person.

I don't care in the slightest what OTHERS think the word means. I know what it means. Others are wrong. I will not allow others to force me into Doublespeak. I, for one, am trying to stop the downslide of this once great nation into obscurity and servitude.

Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

gay
4 entries found for gay.
To select an entry, click on it.

Main Entry: 1gay
Pronunciation: 'gA
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French gai, of Germanic origin; akin to Old High German gAhi quick, sudden
1 a : happily excited : MERRY b : keenly alive and exuberant : having or inducing high spirits
2 a : BRIGHT, LIVELY b : brilliant in color
3 : given to social pleasures; also : LICENTIOUS
4 a : HOMOSEXUAL b : of, relating to, or used by homosexuals
synonym see LIVELY
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Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Wed, 06 Sep 2006 01:57:52 EDT

Steve :

said by Mele20 :

Yes, I do because that is the main meaning of the word. It is SLANG to use the word to mean "homosexual".

I don't know what it means in Hawaii, but in the entire rest of the real world, it means "homosexual", and it's astonishingly out-of-the-loop (or hyperpedantic) to pretend that more than 1/100th of 1% of actual people would think that "gay" meant "happy".

Steve
--
Stephen J. Friedl • Unix Wizard • Microsoft Security MVP • Tustin, California USA • my web site

Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Wed, 06 Sep 2006 01:45:27 EDT

Daniel :

said by Mele20 :

said by MattUK :

I'm afraid that I very rarely use a Dictionary in the normal sense of the word. My Dictionary consists of my environment and the people in it.

"Gay". Anyone still use that to describe being happy?

Yes, I do because that is the main meaning of the word.

No, it isn't. Not anymore. Not in the US anyway.

said by Mele20 :

It is SLANG to use the word to mean "homosexual". Slang is a lazy use of the language. In certain contexts, slang is acceptable but it is still SLANG and not the proper definition.

So go into any corporate environment in the US and say that you feel "gay" today. See what kind of looks you get. If the word's "main" meaning was "happy", you wouldn't get those looks.

said by Mele20 :

The word gay to me primarily means keenly alive and exuberant...happily excited, etc. and I refuse to allow that word to be owned exclusively by homosexuals.

It doesn't matter what you think, though, that's the thing. And it doesn't even matter what homosexuals think. It's about the majority.

Point of fact: if you say someone is "gay" today in the United States, it will be interpreted as them being homosexual. No amount of wishing or refusing will change this fact.
--
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Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Wed, 06 Sep 2006 01:35:12 EDT

Mele20 :

Yes, I do because that is the main meaning of the word. It is SLANG to use the word to mean "homosexual". Slang is a lazy use of the language. In certain contexts, slang is acceptable but it is still SLANG and not the proper definition.

How do you communicate with those outside your environment since you use colloquialism and slang exclusively?

Homosexuals prefer the word gay instead of homosexual but that preference by a very small minority of persons does not change the first and main meaning of the word. I don't let people bully me into their notions of what some word should mean...that is doublespeak and the beginning of the downfall of the society that allows it. The word gay to me primarily means keenly alive and exuberant...happily excited, etc. and I refuse to allow that word to be owned exclusively by homosexuals. If I am in the company of homosexuals who wish me to use the word gay to refer to their sexual orientation, I will do so to be polite but knowing I am using it in a slang and political manner in a very specific context but when I speak to heterosexuals I refer to those whose sexual orientation is toward the same sex as "homosexuals" and "lesbians" not as "gay" persons as I don't know whether they are exuberantly happy or not.
--
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Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Wed, 06 Sep 2006 00:36:55 EDT

Daniel :

said by Nerdtalker :

I'm still steadfastly opposed to the negative connotation that's being given to the word "hacker."

So am I. The point I was making here is that it doesn't matter what we think, and that the mature thing to do is accept the evolution of language.
--
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Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Tue, 05 Sep 2006 22:51:59 EDT

Nerdtalker : I'm still steadfastly opposed to the negative connotation that's being given to the word "hacker." Tons of leetspeak-spoutning kiddies, nightly news broadcasts about identity theft, and knee-jerk reactions from uneducated posters on a huge variety of sites, reputable and not, have taken their toll on a word that used to have a relatively positive connotation.

I still consider the meaning of the word "hacker," to be, in it's purest form, someone who makes something do something it wasn't originally designed to do. Now, that can mean a variety of things. Technically, someone exploiting a vulnerability for malicious gain is a "hacker," but, for the same token, someone editing a driver inf to make it work with a device it wasn't intended to originally work with is also, technically, a "hacker." Following that definition purely, almost all of us are "hackers."

Like it or not, it has, and likely always will be intrepid "hackers," that have made stuff (software, hardware, source code, concepts), do bigger and greater things it ever was originally intended to do. Sometimes, that's for the better, other times, for the worse.
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Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Tue, 05 Sep 2006 10:19:19 EDT

MattUK : I'm afraid that I very rarely use a Dictionary in the normal sense of the word. My Dictionary consists of my environment and the people in it.

"Gay". Anyone still use that to describe being happy?
--
- Matt

Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Tue, 05 Sep 2006 08:27:00 EDT

dave :

said by yazdzik :

Does this mean my inability to swing a driver enables me to write one?

You might want to send your resume to nVidia.

Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Tue, 05 Sep 2006 01:12:03 EDT

91439306 :

said by yazdzik :

said by dave :

Here's one: 'nice'.

Dear Friends,

To note, however, that those skilled in rhetoric can still make language mean what they wish it so to mean, rather than be forced to accept the dictum about knowing the audience, is cause for both wonder at our own perceptiveness and alarm at the possibility of "no" being taken to mean "no, unless the bible, torah, or koran say otherwise, or unless it offend the state and her servants".

I should be more careful before admitting to only one usage being determinant of my own actions, to say nothing of my private thoughts and communications. To allow a word to change without the permission of the speaker, because the mob would have it so is disingenuous.

Brilliantly stated! The above two paragraphs summarize the issue precisely.
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Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Mon, 04 Sep 2006 23:15:24 EDT

Vig :

said by oh hello :

Counterargument: language is volitional, just like other things humans do. no difference.

Language is volitional in the same way the stock market is. Everyone involved makes a conscious decision, but the aggregate behavior is impossible for anyone involved in the system to control or even predict to any level of detail other than broad trends. Language is a manifestation of the culture in which it is used and thus beyond the ability of anyone to control in any meaningful way.
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Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Mon, 04 Sep 2006 22:26:26 EDT

dibbb : I might as well throw my 2 cents in.

There's also something called context. And audience.

If you're talking to your computer buddies about stuff, they will understand when you say you're a hacker that you may mean it in a "good" way.

Other folks may be talking to their buddies about hacking, and they know you meant it in a "bad" way.

The word hacker just sounds cool too.

Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Mon, 04 Sep 2006 22:25:09 EDT

Mele20 :

said by dave :

said by 91439306 :

The problem with the 'in use' change of meaning is that it invalidates the entire body of literary works that come before that change.

Nonsense. Can you understand Shakespeare? And yet he uses words that have changed their meaning between Elizabethan times and Elizabeth-II-an times.

Language must be stable throughout all time.

There is no 'must' about it, and the reason for this is blindingly obvious: there is no such stability. There are plenty of counterexamples, where words change meaning.

Here's one: 'nice'.

"Nor do I think it a matter of little moment whether the language of a people be vitiated or refined, whether the popular idiom be erroneous or correct....It is the opinion of Plato, that changes in the dress and habits of the citizens portend great changes and commotions in the state; and I am inclined to believe that when the language in common use in any country becomes irregular and depraved, it is followed by their ruin or their degredation. For what do terms used without skill or meaning, which are at once corrupt and misapplied, denote but a people listless, supine, and ripe for servitude? On the contrary, we have never hear of any people or state which has not flourished in some degree of prosperity as long as their language has retained its elegance and purity."

John Milton to Benedetto Bonomatthai September 10, 1638

edited to fix typos
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Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Mon, 04 Sep 2006 21:19:58 EDT

dave :

Until the post, supra, I presumed describing Dave or Steve as hackers was the correct use of language.

And it still is. 'Hacker' still means that over-enthusiastic progammer thing.

However, it also means 'one who breaks into computer systems', and it is this other meaning that people seem to object to.

I suggest that the objectors ought to get used to the notion that, in English, one word can have more than one meaning. Even opposite meanings. With that in mind, isn't it about time we tabled this discussion?

To argue that descriptive meaning alone can determine the bases of contracts would create chaos, to argue that prescription will order men's thoughts, tyranny.

OK, I concede your point. But I view that kind of writing as highly technical in nature, and it is a feature of technical communication that words do not have the same looseness around the edges that they have in normal use.

Take 'theory' for a topical example. To those with even a smattering of science education, this means a systematic explanation that is amongst the best there is; a theory accounts for the known facts, and allows useful predictions to be made.

In everyday speech, 'theory' is much less certain, and gets used for any half-baked idea.

We can live comfortably with the difference, and only the half-baked confuse the two.

Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Mon, 04 Sep 2006 19:46:21 EDT

Steve :

said by oh hello :

Counterargument: language is volitional, just like other things humans do. no difference.

Well I think it's largely not. Individual stupid things that people say may be, but broad directions of language over time are less so. It's not a conscious choice, but a collective movement, and I consider that in the nonvolitional category. Perhaps you don't.

Steve
--
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Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Mon, 04 Sep 2006 19:43:21 EDT

oh hello : Counterargument: language is volitional, just like other things humans do. no difference.

Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Mon, 04 Sep 2006 17:29:45 EDT

yazdzik : And, just to be fair

 WordNet (r) 2.0 (August 2003) [wn]
 
hacker
    n 1: someone who plays golf poorly
    2: a programmer who breaks into computer systems in order to
       steal or change or destroy information as a form of
       cyber-terrorism [syn: cyber-terrorist, cyberpunk]
    3: a programmer for whom computing is its own reward; may enjoy
       the challenge of breaking into other computers but does no
       harm; "true hackers subscribe to a code of ethics and look
       down upon crackers"
    4: one who works hard at boring tasks [syn: hack, drudge]
 
 The Free On-line Dictionary of Computing (19 Sep 2003) [foldoc]
 
hacker
 
    (Originally, someone who makes furniture with
   an axe) 1. A person who enjoys exploring the details of
   programmable systems and how to stretch their capabilities, as
   opposed to most users, who prefer to learn only the minimum
   necessary.
 
   2. One who programs enthusiastically (even obsessively) or who
   enjoys programming rather than just theorizing about
   programming.
 
   3. A person capable of appreciating hack value.
 
   4. A person who is good at programming quickly.
 
   5. An expert at a particular program, or one who frequently
   does work using it or on it; as in "a Unix hacker".
   (Definitions 1 through 5 are correlated, and people who fit
   them congregate.)
 
   6. An expert or enthusiast of any kind.  One might be an
   astronomy hacker, for example.
 
   7. One who enjoys the intellectual challenge of creatively
   overcoming or circumventing limitations.
 
   8. (Deprecated) A malicious meddler who tries to discover
   sensitive information by poking around.  Hence "password
   hacker", "network hacker".  The correct term is cracker.
 
   The term "hacker" also tends to connote membership in the
   global community defined by the net (see The Network and
   Internet address).  It also implies that the person
   described is seen to subscribe to some version of the hacker
   ethic.
 
   It is better to be described as a hacker by others than to
   describe oneself that way.  Hackers consider themselves
   something of an elite (a meritocracy based on ability), though
   one to which new members are gladly welcome.  Thus while it is
   gratifying to be called a hacker, false claimants to the title
   are quickly labelled as "bogus" or a "wannabee".

Does this mean my inability to swing a driver enables me to write one?

-m

--
chi troppo vuole nulla stringe

Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Mon, 04 Sep 2006 16:57:59 EDT

yazdzik :

said by NetFixer :

The English language is, was, and will remain versatile enough to be able to handle words with multiple meanings depending upon context.

Thank you, NetFixer.

-M
--
chi troppo vuole nulla stringe

Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Mon, 04 Sep 2006 16:06:13 EDT

NetFixer : My dictionary still recognizes multiple meanings of the word "hacker", with the implied meaning being derived from the context in which it is used (like many other words in the English language).

said by The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language :
hacker (hàk´er) noun

1.Computer Science.
a. One who is proficient at using or programming a computer; a computer buff.
b. One who illegally gains access to or enters another's electronic system to obtain secret information or steal money.

2.Sports. One who enthusiastically pursues a game or sport: a weekend tennis hacker.

[Perhaps from hacker, amateurish or inept golfer or tennis player (possibly from hack[1]) and or perhaps from hack, practical joke, clever scheme (from dialectal hack, to embarrass, confuse, play a trick on).]

hack[1]

hack (hak) noun
1. A modification to the code in a program, often made without taking the time to find an elegant solution.
2. A sloppy job. See also kludge, patch. Also called kludge, patch.

hack[2]

hack (hak) verb
1. To apply creative ingenuity to a problem or project.
2. To alter the behavior of an application or an operating system by modifying its code rather than by running the program and selecting options.

The list for "hack" and "hacker" is actually much longer with still more definitions, but I limited this post to mostly computer/network definitions.

The English language is, was, and will remain versatile enough to be able to handle words with multiple meanings depending upon context. If an individual user of the English language is unable to handle this task, then perhaps a bit of remedial education might be indicated.
--
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We need to witness our own limits transgressed, and some life pasturing freely where we never wander.
Test your firewall.

Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Mon, 04 Sep 2006 14:49:27 EDT

anon : "but the point of the matter is that that definition is not longer valid."

Well, it's not entirely invalid, but the point is that the MOST common use of the word IN THE GENERAL PUBLIC has a negative connotation. This does NOT prevent the "old" usage in the appropriate context.

Many words have multiple meanings. We deduce the intended meaning from the context when we can -- English has some interesting ambiguities. In some cases one meaning of a word (the original) is now listed as "archaic" in the dictionary (or sometimes has disappeared altogether). This is simply the nature of language. Those who believe that meanings are absolute have never studied this and are simply too young to have noticed it happening.

Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Mon, 04 Sep 2006 14:36:11 EDT

whizkid3 : It all depends on what the definition of 'is', is.

Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Mon, 04 Sep 2006 14:24:28 EDT

Daniel :

said by BDSMerlin :

NOW SINCE I DO HACK AND IN YOUR DEFINISION ALL HACKERS ARE CRIMINAL's, AM I A CRIMINAL?

Relax, dude. You're not a hacker. You are, like hpguru stated, a pen-tester. Now don't get me wrong, you are a hacker in the old sense, in the original sense of the word, but the point of the matter is that that definition is not longer valid. The word has changed, so you are now an "Ethical Hacker".

Actually, let's look at that term -- ethical hacker. You know what CEH is, right? It's a Certified Ethical Hacker. That's a certification to give legitimacy to pen-testers. Notice the name.

Ethical Hacker.

Why would they append "ethical" to the front of Hacker? Simple. Because it's required in order to counteract the natural reaction when people hear the word Hacker by itself.
--
dmiessler.com -- grep understanding knowledge

Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Mon, 04 Sep 2006 11:19:54 EDT

yazdzik :

said by dave :

Here's one: 'nice'.

Dear Friends,

Whilst Dave makes a nice distinction among prescriptive, descriptive, and cognitive use of syntax, perhaps I have missed something in popular culture.

Since my exposure to computers is limited to a rather inept use of e-mail, the occasional skype, and lengthy inarticulate rants to the unix forum here, it never occurred to me that hacker was anything but an informal synonym for programmer, with the emphasis or connotative shading of someone dealing in the more pragmatic aspects of userland.

Until the post, supra, I presumed describing Dave or Steve as hackers was the correct use of language.

The point being that, while I am hardly illiterate, there is a cultural use of words which those who live in the more everyday world of that culture appreciate, and those outside of it do not.

A few days ago, I gave my daughter my most beloved edition of the short OED, beautiful leather bound, 1933 edition. It was, until dict became so easy, my usual reference, on my desk next to the port and cigars, as a symbol of times and manners long since dead. I suppose few will ever mourn the passing of rational humanism, as our world metamorphoses into either a feudal society once again, or even a democratic theocracy. I, for one, realise that a certain amount of strict construction, contract based society, and civil libertarianism depend precisely upon the fact that we impose stable meanings upon words whose usage belies the very instabilty of definition, syntax, grammar, and context.

This began in the courts in the late nineteenth century. "No" in the Bill of Rights cannot mean no, because "no" has to be quantified, qualified, re-defined in order for people to accept it. "No" means to Holmes, "within the confines of community standard". Not to some jackass, but to Holmes. Be this the case, the idea that we can establish contract with words being as flexible as they are creates the current social malaise.

Is Microsoft Corporation a monopoly? Yes, of course, but, since without such a monopoly, we cannot really create a higher standard of living, it is a necessary monopoly, so we are told.

Anyone here old enough to remember the teaching of US history recalling Roosevelt being the trust buster and Harriman, Rockefeller, et al, being "robber barons". Since corporations pay the taxes that elect politicians, as well as fund our state schools, the phrase itself sounds archaic, quaint, a remnant of a simpler time when even a wiretap was consider so egregious an offence against our freedom that a curial order was needed, and granted only with real resistance to the very concept of governmental nannying, however necessary to protect life and property.

There is indeed a nice variance between a word used in conversation and a word used to bind men to their word. Shakespeare is comprehensible precisely because we read, we search the meaning of our lives, the nature of our souls with the tools of our disciplines, language, music, plastic arts, and even athletic contests. To argue that descriptive meaning alone can determine the bases of contracts would create chaos, to argue that prescription will order men's thoughts, tyranny.

To note, however, that those skilled in rhetoric can still make language mean what they wish it so to mean, rather than be forced to accept the dictum about knowing the audience, is cause for both wonder at our own perceptiveness and alarm at the possibility of "no" being taken to mean "no, unless the bible, torah, or koran say otherwise, or unless it offend the state and her servants".

I should be more careful before admitting to only one usage being determinant of my own actions, to say nothing of my private thoughts and communications. To allow a word to change without the permission of the speaker, because the mob would have it so is disingenuous.

No one presumes when I state that I am no hacker that I observe statute, rather, that I cannot write in programming languages to effectuate movement of electrons here or there, at my volitional behest. Which, come to think of, describes a lot of professional programmers, as well as some open source friends.

All good wishes,

Yazdzik
--
chi troppo vuole nulla stringe

Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Mon, 04 Sep 2006 11:05:12 EDT

Steve :

said by dave :

Here's one: 'nice'.

The word "silly" used to mean "blessed", but it now refers to some of the points made in this thread

;-)
--
Stephen J. Friedl • Unix Wizard • Microsoft Security MVP • Tustin, California USA • my web site

Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Mon, 04 Sep 2006 10:47:24 EDT

dave :

said by 91439306 :

The problem with the 'in use' change of meaning is that it invalidates the entire body of literary works that come before that change.

Nonsense. Can you understand Shakespeare? And yet he uses words that have changed their meaning between Elizabethan times and Elizabeth-II-an times.

Language must be stable throughout all time.

There is no 'must' about it, and the reason for this is blindingly obvious: there is no such stability. There are plenty of counterexamples, where words change meaning.

Here's one: 'nice'.

Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Mon, 04 Sep 2006 10:45:27 EDT

Steve :

said by oh hello :

If language changing is a force of nature, then everything humans do can be viewed as a force of nature.

No: language change is not volitional, but other things humans do is. That's a big difference.
--
Stephen J. Friedl • Unix Wizard • Microsoft Security MVP • Tustin, California USA • my web site

Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Mon, 04 Sep 2006 10:39:40 EDT

DocLarge : Man, this is silly.

My two cents worth:

Hacker in today's language equates to criminal. Time to piss on the camp fire because the word is lost...

Here's the new terms to get on board with (although the issue of color for good and evil still perplexes me):

White Hats = Good Guys (Us)
Black Hats = Bad Guys (Them, Otherwise known as "Hackers")

Let it go; although no one likes to "lay down" on a principle, this principle was knocked down and "kicked to Hell" a long time ago. Hackers go to jail; those who wear the white hats put them there...

Jay

Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Mon, 04 Sep 2006 09:58:40 EDT

hpguru :

said by BDSMerlin :

Let me introduce myself

I am a HACKER!! I work for a large company trying to break into differnt company systems from the outside and testing to see if our firewalls are configered right or what access I can gain using differnt methods, I work with the domain admins and computer security sections of my company to help make them more secure, I am a Whitehat HACKER.

You are a pen tester.
--
Get hpHOSTS!

Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Mon, 04 Sep 2006 03:40:54 EDT

BDSMerlin : Let me introduce myself

I am a HACKER!! I work for a large company trying to break into differnt company systems from the outside and testing to see if our firewalls are configered right or what access I can gain using differnt methods, I work with the domain admins and computer security sections of my company to help make them more secure, I am a Whitehat HACKER.

Even though I break into our companys systems I do it with good intent to make them more secure to keep criminal's
at bay. But it is the nieve company worker who is the most dangrous of security risk blindly sharing usernames and passwords with some guy on the phone who says he's in the IT department giving the hacker what he needs to do his work.
Most of the cracking attepts made are from overseas mostly foregn goverment or criminal orginazation sponsored cracking to get company or goverment secrets, these are the Bank and Credit card cracks you have heard of most reasontly in the news these are carried out by them not the kid sitting in his parents basment he is what we call a script kiddy and is the lowest form of cracker there is.

It was the TV Media in the late 80's early 90's culmanating with Kevin Mitnicks arrest that the word HACKER started to bundle all people that did computer crimes into one group without understanding what the word means in the computer world they did not care it was a much catchier phrase than cracker. The word cracker came from the safe cracker someone who trys to break into a place that is secure thus the he has cracked the security.

I HACK computer programs also to either fix issues with the program or make it do what I want that is where the word started and I will still use that word to didcribe it because I refuse to let the media NEWS Define what means what.

NOW SINCE I DO HACK AND IN YOUR DEFINISION ALL HACKERS ARE CRIMINAL's, AM I A CRIMINAL?

Merlin
Oh and that is my hacker name

Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Mon, 04 Sep 2006 02:13:00 EDT

oh hello : The word "hack" is used all the time in a non-negative way. Registry hacks, anyone?

quote:
said by 91439306 :
it's silly to take a position on a force of nature.

If language changing is a force of nature, then everything humans do can be viewed as a force of nature. And if that's the case, it's silly to take a position on anything. I guess there's nothing wrong with thinking that way. That is - until you're not consistent.

Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Mon, 04 Sep 2006 00:45:56 EDT

Steve :

said by 91439306 :

For goodness sake, add NEW words--don't change the existing words.

This is a naïve and unwinnable battle, one which flies in the face of thousands of years of language evolution. No central body determines the meanings of words - it's the collective contributions of everybody casting an unwitting "vote", and it's less under conscious control than fashion.

Likewise with pronunciation: I'm deeply disappointed that the moron-esque "newkular" is becoming acceptable in polite society, and it's going to be a valid pronunciation sooner or later. And all I can do to stop it is use it correctly when I have the chance: that's just the way it goes. Things change whether I like it or not.

To oppose semantic evolution in the general case is like opposing the weather: it's silly to take a position on a force of nature.

Steve
--
Stephen J. Friedl • Unix Wizard • Microsoft Security MVP • Tustin, California USA • my web site

Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Mon, 04 Sep 2006 00:14:50 EDT

91439306 : The problem with the 'in use' change of meaning is that it invalidates the entire body of literary works that come before that change.
For example, we are already having problems with the definition of 'militia' with regard to the 2nd Amendment. The Constitution, and thousands of other works of literature, would have to be rewritten so that the meaning of 'new speak' would convey the same result--if that were even possible.
Language must be stable throughout all time. Were we to keep changing definitions of existing words, the opportunity for confusion would proliferate in unfathomable multiplicity.
Back in the '30s & 40s, it was okay to eclaim that one feels 'gay'. Today, it would be an admission of homosexuality. There are already too many examples of language being twisted by cultural changes. For goodness sake, add NEW words--don't change the existing words.
--
Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

My Kurzweil Music at: '»www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm

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Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Sun, 03 Sep 2006 21:56:58 EDT

dave :

said by 91439306 :

Imagine the definition of freedom changing: Freedom: a state of involuntary servitude; slavery; indentured servitude to one's government.

Now with the above new definition of freedom, we can dismantle the power of the Constitution. Think about it.

You are, I think, factually correct here.

But the flaw in your thinking is this: before the "definition of freedom" as written in a dictionary can change, we must already be using the word in this new and different way. That is, the dictionary will not allow us to be enslaved; the dictionary will merely report that we are already enslaved.

Your thesis isn't so far from that of '1984', by the time that the transition to Newspeak is completed, the old concept of freedom would be quite literally unthinkable: freedom would be freedom to love IngSoc and the Psrty.

But the work is done in minds, not dictionaries. And it's quite different to what we're talking about here. Obviously, we have not lost the concept implied in the original meaning of 'hacker'.

Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Sun, 03 Sep 2006 21:45:16 EDT

dave :

said by 91439306 :

Because words must have absolute meaning, if we as a society are to remain stable and civilized.

Oh, nonsense.

What do you mean when you say "computer"?

I sincerely hope you mean a person, usually a woman, who is employed to perform routine arithmetical calculations.

If you try and change the meaning of the word like some misguided fools, for example applying it to electromechanical or electronic calculating engines, then I fear for the stability of civilization.

Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Sun, 03 Sep 2006 21:44:27 EDT

Jwobot : Breaking into a house shouldt be a crime either!

Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Sun, 03 Sep 2006 20:02:34 EDT

Daniel :

said by 91439306 :

said by hpguru :

Why would someone want to hang onto a word anyway? We change, our language changes with us.

Because words must have absolute meaning, if we as a society are to remain stable and civilized.

Well, that's just it -- words don't have an absolute meaning. They have currently used meanings, and generally accepted meanings. Those are what you find in the dictionary.

If what you are saying were correct, the meaning of words would not change over time. But they do. They do simply because people start using them differently, and when it comes time to write a new dictionary, the way the word is being used by the majority goes into the book, not the way it's used "properly".
--
dmiessler.com -- grep understanding knowledge

Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Sun, 03 Sep 2006 19:15:47 EDT

hpguru : What ^^he^^ said. :)

Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Sun, 03 Sep 2006 17:47:53 EDT

Steve :

said by 91439306 :

Because words must have absolute meaning, if we as a society are to remain stable and civilized.

No, I don't think they do: words are merely conventions for concepts, and all that matters is that everybody knows what you're talking about when you say the word. The key factor is not an absolute meaning, but an agreed-upon meaning.

Imagine the definition of freedom changing: Freedom: a state of involuntary servitude; slavery; indentured servitude to one's government.

You picked an excellent word upon which equivocation is rampant, and it's been appropriated heavily by those opposed to liberty. It's usually spoken of in vague, non-definitions such as "real freedom" instead of the iron-clad "freedom from coercion".

But unlike "hacker", which is a lost cause, "freedom" is still clung to by lovers of liberty.

Steve
--
Stephen J. Friedl • Unix Wizard • Microsoft Security MVP • Tustin, California USA • my web site

Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Sun, 03 Sep 2006 17:39:21 EDT

elios :

said by anonofcourse :

Look, "breaking into a system just for the challenge" has always been a semantic to make hackers feel better. If you break a system you are still a criminal. If you break into a bank and dont take the money you are still commiting a crime.

but its the lesser crime then actuly TAKING the money
breaking and entering

i see it as the same as some one leaves ther front door unlocked

a "hacker" would check every ones doors when one is found unlocked and no ones home thay would take alook in side see whats there leave and leave a note says "LOCK YOUR DOOR"

a "cracker" would steal every thing that isnt nailed down

i see nothing wrong with what a hacker would

Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Sun, 03 Sep 2006 15:50:48 EDT

anon : Look, "breaking into a system just for the challenge" has always been a semantic to make hackers feel better. If you break a system you are still a criminal. If you break into a bank and dont take the money you are still commiting a crime.

Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Sun, 03 Sep 2006 15:43:39 EDT

91439306 :

said by hpguru :

Why would someone want to hang onto a word anyway? We change, our language changes with us.

Because words must have absolute meaning, if we as a society are to remain stable and civilized.

Imagine the definition of freedom changing: Freedom: a state of involuntary servitude; slavery; indentured servitude to one's government.

Now with the above new definition of freedom, we can dismantle the power of the Constitution. Think about it.
--
Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

My Kurzweil Music at: '»www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm

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Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Sun, 03 Sep 2006 14:37:02 EDT

anon : hey i resent that.
NOT.

Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Sun, 03 Sep 2006 13:52:15 EDT

gatchel : If you are too stupid to let one word define you then so be it.

Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Sun, 03 Sep 2006 12:41:55 EDT

TheWiseGuy : »dictionary.cambridge.org/define.···0&dict=A
»www.m-w.com/dictionary/hacker
»www.google.com/search?hl=en&hs=C···ct=title
»www.answers.com/hacker&r=67
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker

Unfortunately many words have different meanings depending on the context. Hacker can still IMO, have a positive not simply a negative connotation, but it depends on the meaning of the writer. You must read the word in the context of the material. So if you say it only means cracker or can not mean cracker, you will miss the meaning of what has been written.
--
Warning, If you post nonsense and use misinformation and are here to argue based on those methods, you will be put on ignore.

Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Sun, 03 Sep 2006 12:28:21 EDT

PuterJunkie : Somewhere along the line hacking went from trying to get in to another system for the challenge of it, to a way of exploiting the users data and resources for financial gain. So instead of hacking for the challenge and to learn something, it became hacking for criminal intent. The makers of viruses that were just trying to wreak chaos and havoc, decided to try to profit from the ignorance and the hard work of others. So that is what makes them criminals.
The government can write a million laws against spyware, identity theft, and spam but in the end laws are written for criminals, not the law abiding.
With that said the war is between the criminals and the computer-security challenged. The greatest weapon in the war is knowledge and education. So it is Forums like this one and Tech Support Guy that give us a chance to win the war. So three cheers for this forum and the users that give up their time to help us when we need it!
Ok, I will put away my soap box now. :D

Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Sun, 03 Sep 2006 12:07:39 EDT

hpguru : Why would someone want to hang onto a word anyway? We change, our language changes with us.
--
Get hpHOSTS!

Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Sun, 03 Sep 2006 12:00:15 EDT

MikeG : This link has a few different meanings of the word hacker.
»dictionary.reference.com/search?···&x=0&y=0
--
Success is measured by effort

Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Sun, 03 Sep 2006 11:52:03 EDT

gkweb : I agree the war is lost, see :
»dictionary.cambridge.org/define.···ict=CALD

quote:
hack (COMPUTING)
verb [I usually + adverb or preposition]
to get into someone else's computer system without permission in order to find out information or do something illegal:
Computer hacking has become very widespread over the last decade.
A programmer had managed to hack into some top-secret government data.

hacker
noun [C] (ALSO computer hacker)
someone who hacks into other people's computer systems

If even the dictionary tells that... :o

Regards,
gkweb.
--
Firewall tester : »www.firewallleaktester.com

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Re: A Hacker Is A Criminal

Sun, 03 Sep 2006 11:07:27 EDT

nwrickert : From the referenced page:

That being said, we’ve lost the war for the word hacker. It already means something else. It means a computer criminal. The reason it means that is because that’s what most people think it means. It’s really that simple.

I agree.

A Hacker Is A Criminal

Sun, 03 Sep 2006 10:57:59 EDT

Daniel : A Hacker is a bad guy—someone trying to break into computers with the intent of causing harm. Don’t argue with it, and stop fighting it. It's time for those in the security community to stop with the stubborn romantization of the word and start accepting what it means today.
We all know about the hacker vs. cracker debate; it’s a particularly lively one that leaves its droppings all over the Internet. There are two main sides: those that use hacker in a popular, negative light, and those that demand the use of the term “cracker” instead of hacker when referring to a criminal. Those on this side offer an argument that goes something like this:

A hacker is not a criminal. A hacker is someone who seeks to understand their trade (usually computers). Through this understanding they are able to change how certain things work. They face obstacles by “hacking” solutions rather than accepting limitations. They are simply creative people using their understanding of a given system to solve problems. Unfortunately, the media are trying to hijack the term and turn it into something malicious. We mustn’t let them.

Words actually mean what people think they mean, not what they’re “supposed" to mean. In fact, the very concept of “supposed to mean” is a silly one. A dictionary is little more than a time-sensitive collection of the way words are currently being used.