Re: 15 Miles shot. How to do it? in Wireless Service Providers

Re: 15 Miles shot. How to do it? in Wireless Service Providers http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r16865791 en Fri, 04 Dec 2009 22:38:36 EDT Fri, 04 Dec 2009 22:38:36 EDT Re: 15 Miles shot. How to do it? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16953840 Keithb : The default will more than likely be 91. We have a 10.5 mile shot set on 91 without any problems or packet loss. Each install will vary though I would imagine.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16953840 Fri, 22 Sep 2006 14:07:59 EDT Re: 15 Miles shot. How to do it? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16953704 John Galt :

said by anoclon

:

Is this the case for deliberant 2319?

I believe that it is...

The 23XX means that the base radio is a DLB2300 module (with the same firmware) and the XX19 means that it has the 19 dB panel antenna.
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A is A]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16953704 Fri, 22 Sep 2006 13:45:59 EDT Re: 15 Miles shot. How to do it? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16952787 anoclon :

said by lutful

:

1. The 12 mile limit comes from "deafult" timeout value for packet acknowledgement (ACK) - many firmware lets you increase the ACK timeout value for longer links.

Is this the case for deliberant 2319?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16952787 Fri, 22 Sep 2006 10:56:48 EDT Re: 15 Miles shot. How to do it? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16898783 Keithb : I would think 2 of the higher gain DLB's with 24dbi grid should do 15 miles with LOS. We have a 10.5 mile with a 24dbi grid, to a 120 degree 16dbi sector.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16898783 Wed, 13 Sep 2006 22:23:17 EDT Re: 15 Miles shot. How to do it? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16897923 rawgerz : He was referring to the 2319]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16897923 Wed, 13 Sep 2006 20:06:02 EDT Re: 15 Miles shot. How to do it? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16897585 anoclon :

said by lutful

:

The lower cost DLB2300 model with 19dBi antenna will be better for 15 mile shot with clear line of sight. :)

On the following link

»www.deliberant.com/estore/web/c-···ios.aspx

I dont see any DLB2300 with 19dbi integrated antenna. Maybe youre talking about the model DLB2319. Or are you suggesting to use the connectorized model DLB2310 and buy two pairs of 19dbi antennas?

Which way?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16897585 Wed, 13 Sep 2006 19:07:12 EDT Re: 15 Miles shot. How to do it? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16890957 PersComp : Sorry, I checked it closer. That was a new system that I set up with the 2700 and the grid. I accidentally set the receive to -75 instead of -85.
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Are these instructions or corrections???

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16890957 Tue, 12 Sep 2006 19:11:06 EDT Re: 15 Miles shot. How to do it? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16890867 anoclon : So, theres only a 3dB gain in Rx relative compared to 19dbi antenna right?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16890867 Tue, 12 Sep 2006 18:54:13 EDT Re: 15 Miles shot. How to do it? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16880554 PersComp : Here are the results of the 2700 and 24dBi grids.
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Are these instructions or corrections???

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16880554 Mon, 11 Sep 2006 09:02:30 EDT Re: 15 Miles shot. How to do it? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16878063 John Galt :

said by anoclon

:

John, are you there???

I am on vacation for a week...so I will in and out of here for a few more days.

PersComp, can you do a calculation using the DLB-2700 and 24 dB grids?

»www.deliberant.com/estore/web/da···1043.pdf

Thanks...and back to vacationing.
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A is A]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16878063 Sun, 10 Sep 2006 20:21:53 EDT Re: 15 Miles shot. How to do it? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16876086 LLigetfa : Well... there are still too many unknowns to make an accurate assessment. We know nothing about the two bases or the seaside site, noise floor, spectrum use, tower heights, wind factor, etc. There has been little described of the seaside location as to the immediate terrain and what sort of tower can suitably and affordably be erected.

5.8GHz has more free space loss than 2.4GHz. That said, there is the osbridge 5GXi with integrated 23dB panels (10 watt EIRP) at $200.US that could be considered. Wind loading would be minimal on an integrated panel. They also have a connectorized version one could use grids with for more $$$ but wind loading would require more substantial mounting. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16876086 Sun, 10 Sep 2006 13:57:04 EDT Re: 15 Miles shot. How to do it? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16875874 jober : If I were you and I could spend the extra money on this project, I would use the following equipment.

RB532-4A RB532 64MB RAM, Lvl 4 lic $185.00x2=$370.00

DCE-CaseKitPGME Die Cast Aluminum Case PGME $32.30x2=$64.60
SR2-80211bg SuperRange2 802.11b/g 400 mW mini-PCI $109.95 x2=$219.90

Ufl6-NFB-.5 Pigtail Ufl6 to NFB 5" $13.00x2=$26.00

POE-48 48v Input POE Injector $22.45x2=44.90

NM-NM-400-6 Pigtail NM to NM LMR400 Style, 6 ft $16.30x2= $32.60

DC24-HD-PF1PF 2.4GHz 24dBi Die Cast Antenna N-Female $58.45x2=$116.90
Total: $874.90

But I would also use 5.8Ghz not 2.4Ghz. The cost would be almost the same.
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16875874 Sun, 10 Sep 2006 13:14:30 EDT Re: 15 Miles shot. How to do it? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16874943 LLigetfa : You could try a pair of radios with integrated panels but if they don't have enough power to give you the fade margin, you will have to shelve them.
If integrated panels don't work out, go for connectorized and get as much antenna gain as you can afford to buy and that the weather there won't tear apart. Then, since you are not bound by part 15, you can adjust radio power to give you the fade margin you need.
Good antenna gain always trumps radio power since it works both ways.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16874943 Sun, 10 Sep 2006 09:15:29 EDT Re: 15 Miles shot. How to do it? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16874438 anoclon : Guys, please. I´m a rookie. Please keep it easy. John, are you there??? please I could use your help. Please traslate it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16874438 Sun, 10 Sep 2006 03:17:06 EDT Re: 15 Miles shot. How to do it? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16871921 jober : I have a 13 mile link that does 7.5mbps.
The tower side has a 24dbi panel that I'm going to change to a 27 or 29bdi grid and the client side has a 29dbi grid.
Both sides are running SR5s in Router Board 532s.
I'm setting up a test link that's 35 miles. I have my side setup with a 24dbi grid and a SR2 in a RB532 and the other Wisp is setting up the same on his side.
At this point he has a 15dbi omni with a CM9 in a wrap or RB532 and I can connect to it with a -85db signal so I think the link will be good with the new hardware on his side.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16871921 Sat, 09 Sep 2006 17:37:22 EDT Re: 15 Miles shot. How to do it? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16871603 lutful : 1. The 12 mile limit comes from "deafult" timeout value for packet acknowledgement (ACK) - many firmware lets you increase the ACK timeout value for longer links.

2. Many of our links go over water at low height. Do not worry about that.

If you use connectorized DLB2300, please try 24dBi grid antenna since you could lose a few dB signal due to less-than-perfect tightening of cable and other strange issues.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16871603 Sat, 09 Sep 2006 16:34:23 EDT Re: 15 Miles shot. How to do it? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16870984 anoclon : 1. I have read / learned on this forum that a 12 mile link would be the maximum distance or limit on a wireless connection without having to re-transmit the signal. Am I wrong or understood wrong?

2. Have you checked with google earth the surrounding area for client side? there´s a lot of water (canal / river) between the bases and the client. Could that affect the signal?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16870984 Sat, 09 Sep 2006 14:29:28 EDT Re: 15 Miles shot. How to do it? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16870455 John Galt :

said by anoclon

:

What´s the difference between a connectorized and a NOT connectorized radio?

The connectorized radio needs a pigtail and an antenna whereas the integrated radio has an antenna built-in.
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A is A]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16870455 Sat, 09 Sep 2006 12:49:48 EDT Re: 15 Miles shot. How to do it? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16870337 anoclon : How´re you doing John. I´m glad to hear from you. I´m trying to survive downhere. As you see, I´m thinking deliberant instead of d-link now. That´s a big step for me as you already know.

Ok guys, thank you all. Sorry for leaving you alone discussing this subject all this time.

said by John Galt

said by LLigetfa

:

I think you are interpreting part 15 different than I do.

Part 15 does not apply to Anoclon...

John is completely right. He knows my entire story and FCC and part 15 regulations does not apply to me. So please, in my case forget about any rules you have upthere in US. I could use any radio with any antenna I want, with the output power I want but I´d like to keep it the cheapest possible way. In this case, I´ve considered deliberant.

I want it to be a PtP link, from any of my bases, to the client. My question is: do you think deliberant would do the job? Would the throughput be enough? What model would be best?

What´s the difference between a connectorized and a NOT connectorized radio?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16870337 Sat, 09 Sep 2006 12:24:33 EDT Re: 15 Miles shot. How to do it? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16868322 LLigetfa :

said by PersComp

:

So does a PtP (end user) have different rules than a PtP backhaul?

No, same rule. Since the client only talks to the AP, it IS one radio at each end. The AP is the weak link because if it talks to more than one radio it is bound to a max EIRP of 36.
»www.telexwireless.com/wireless/f···art%2015]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16868322 Fri, 08 Sep 2006 23:50:32 EDT Re: 15 Miles shot. How to do it? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16868314 John Galt :

said by PersComp

:

So does a PtP (end user) have different rules than a PtP backhaul? Perhaps I completely mis-understand Part 15 myself.... I interpret a PtP as meaning 1 radio on each end. If I am wrong, someone please let me know.

Clients can run under the PtP rules...APs MUST be evaluated under the PtMP rules.
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A is A]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16868314 Fri, 08 Sep 2006 23:49:41 EDT Re: 15 Miles shot. How to do it? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16868261 lutful : Do not know about Guatemala, but PtMP CPEs are treated like a PtP endpoint in many jurisdictions. :)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16868261 Fri, 08 Sep 2006 23:36:25 EDT Re: 15 Miles shot. How to do it? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16868221 PersComp : So does a PtP (end user) have different rules than a PtP backhaul? Perhaps I completely mis-understand part 15 myself.... I interprate a PtP as meaning 1 radio on each end. If I am wrong, someone please let me know.
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Are these instructions or corrections???]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16868221 Fri, 08 Sep 2006 23:28:34 EDT Re: 15 Miles shot. How to do it? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16868180 LLigetfa : Right you are... part 15 doesn't apply to me either but IC rules are pretty much the same. Can't speak for Guatemala though.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16868180 Fri, 08 Sep 2006 23:19:57 EDT Re: 15 Miles shot. How to do it? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16868073 John Galt :

said by LLigetfa

:

I think you are interpreting part 15 different than I do.

Part 15 does not apply to Anoclon...
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A is A]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16868073 Fri, 08 Sep 2006 23:03:49 EDT Re: 15 Miles shot. How to do it? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16868066 PersComp : So if the AP has only 1 client.....what makes it different than a backhaul???

If I add a 2nd client then the rules change. But if that is the only client then it is still a PtP, right?
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Are these instructions or corrections???

edit: I am not trying to bend the rules. It was just easier to add the AP to my end rather than the client end (at least to verify that it would fix the problem at hand).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16868066 Fri, 08 Sep 2006 23:02:56 EDT Re: 15 Miles shot. How to do it? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16868044 LLigetfa : I think you are interpreting part 15 different than I do.

The number of clients on the AP is not the deciding factor of max EIRP of the client. Every client that talks only to the one AP falls under the PtP clause and could run over 50dBm. Obviously if the AP talks to more than one client, it falls under the PtMP max EIRP of 36dBm.

That said, if the base is at max EIRP of 36dB, the client would need a mesh of decent gain to overcome the weak Rx. So, when doing a disparate PtMP calc in RM, it is important to swap ends and test both ways.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16868044 Fri, 08 Sep 2006 22:58:49 EDT Re: 15 Miles shot. How to do it? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16867964 PersComp :

said by LLigetfa

said by PersComp

:

The 2714 option that anoclon originally posted would not be legal in a PtMP setup either.

Why not?
It is legal by my calculation for the client side. Obviously not for the base though.

A 500mW output can legally drive a 15 dB directional (PtP) setup.

True....

That is why I said that it would not be legal for a PtMP (the base station). But if he only has that one client then he can use up to a 24dBi on his 2300 series radio on either link. I am currently using a 2400Maxx with integrated panel antenna as an AP for a link. Since it only has one client, then it is perfectly legal.
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Are these instructions or corrections???]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16867964 Fri, 08 Sep 2006 22:47:21 EDT Re: 15 Miles shot. How to do it? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16867909 LLigetfa :

said by PersComp

:

The 2714 option that anoclon originally posted would not be legal in a PtMP setup either.

Why not?
It is legal by my calculation for the client side. Obviously not for the base though.

A 500mW output can legally drive a 15 dB directional (PtP) setup.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16867909 Fri, 08 Sep 2006 22:36:19 EDT Re: 15 Miles shot. How to do it? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16867854 PersComp : Hence the math of 50% engineering + 50% networking + 50% black magic to create a sucessful WISP...

Or as Yogi Berra said, 90% of hitting is half mental... :D
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Are these instructions or corrections???]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16867854 Fri, 08 Sep 2006 22:26:13 EDT Re: 15 Miles shot. How to do it? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16867832 LLigetfa :

said by PersComp

:

Must be one of those weird algorithmic fresnel issues that has to do with odd or even clearances or something..... :huh:

Like when you stop at a red light and your FM radio fades... pull ahead a foot or two and it clears up. When I run the numbers in RM, I always move the elevation up and down a few metres to see if it is on a null point.

I have read stories of installers having to lower an antenna a few feet to improve the signal. Sometimes it is to get below noise but not always. I'd guess sometimes raising it a few feet would have had the same effect.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16867832 Fri, 08 Sep 2006 22:23:27 EDT Re: 15 Miles shot. How to do it? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16867789 PersComp :

said by LLigetfa

:

Don't you think the EIRP on the bases are a tad excessive? Assuming them to be bound by PtMP rules and not PtP.

Agreed...

By the vagueness of the original post and the apparent "looking for something" I just used a couple of 2319s on RM and posted the results. It is up to the user to assume responsibility of legalities. The 2714 option that anoclon originally posted would not be legal in a PtMP setup either. I assumed that anoclon wanted a starting point and will use appropriate equipment and will be glad to check other options that may work. Here is a 36dB EIRP Base and the same 2319 client. This looks very marginal....need more antenna or higher Rx sens...
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Are these instructions or corrections???

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16867789 Fri, 08 Sep 2006 22:16:14 EDT Re: 15 Miles shot. How to do it? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16867690 LLigetfa : By "how close to the middle", I was referring to whether the client is smack dab in the middle of a sector's coverage angle or at one of the edges. A sector's coverage angle is calculated to the point where the signal falls off by 3dB so that should be factored on a long shot like 15 miles.

Don't you think the EIRP on the bases are a tad excessive? Assuming them to be bound by PtMP rules and not PtP.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16867690 Fri, 08 Sep 2006 21:59:53 EDT Re: 15 Miles shot. How to do it? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16867633 PersComp :

said by LLigetfa

:

how close to the middle would the sub be?

FYI...location of sites....
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Are these instructions or corrections???

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16867633 Fri, 08 Sep 2006 21:48:42 EDT Re: 15 Miles shot. How to do it? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16867589 John Galt : Hey..how goes your battles??
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A is A]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16867589 Fri, 08 Sep 2006 21:42:39 EDT Re: 15 Miles shot. How to do it? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16867514 PersComp :

said by rawgerz

said by PersComp

:

Perhaps someone may have some other insight.....

The ground at the lower part should be why it's low. It's cutting the fresnal smaller because of the height and distance.

I thought that at first too, but the one with greater fade margin has less fresnel clearance. And the spot you speak of is the only spot that the fresnel has any encroachment. Just seemed weird to me. Must be one of those weird algorithmic fresnel issues that has to do with odd or even clearances or something..... :huh:
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Are these instructions or corrections???]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16867514 Fri, 08 Sep 2006 21:29:12 EDT Re: 15 Miles shot. How to do it? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16867439 rawgerz :

said by PersComp

:

Perhaps someone may have some other insight.....

The ground at the lower part should be why it's low. It's cutting the fresnal smaller because of the height and distance.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16867439 Fri, 08 Sep 2006 21:19:57 EDT Re: 15 Miles shot. How to do it? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16867354 PersComp : Not sure why, but base2 provides a better option despite being a slightly longer shot and basically the same terrain. It even looks like there is slightly more fresnel encroachment on #2. Perhaps someone may have some other insight.....

This is with the 2300 w/19 as Lutful suggests.
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Are these instructions or corrections???

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16867354 Fri, 08 Sep 2006 21:06:31 EDT Re: 15 Miles shot. How to do it? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16866412 LLigetfa : Are the two bases running max EIRP and if sectorized, how close to the middle would the sub be? I would think a connectorized CPE with a higher dB mesh would be the way to go.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16866412 Fri, 08 Sep 2006 18:35:28 EDT Re: 15 Miles shot. How to do it? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16865791 lutful : The lower cost DLB2300 model with 19dBi antenna will be better for 15 mile shot with clear line of sight. :)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16865791 Fri, 08 Sep 2006 16:59:42 EDT 15 Miles shot. How to do it? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16865761 anoclon : I have 2 base stations on the following coordinates:

1. 14° 4'27.72" N
90°25' 1.09" W

2. 14° 5'18.49" N
90°22'53.33" W

The stations have NO connection with each other.

Im trying to set up a customer (client) on the following coordinates:

13°51'49.56" N
90°24'26.49" W

Its about 15 miles shot. Im thinking on Deliberant DLB-2714 with 14dbi integrated antenna. Would that be enough for that kind of shot? I guess I have line of sight because client its at a sea level and my base stations are at 920 feet above see level and the other one at about 1050 feet over see level. What do you people think? I could use any of my 2 base stations to do the shot.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16865761 Fri, 08 Sep 2006 16:56:04 EDT