 OmegaDisplaced OhioanPremium
join:2002-07-30
Cheyenne, WY | Re: I can already hear the conversation said by Karl Bode: quote:
It isn't the job of a business to be a welfare agency for people who make bad decisions.
But it is their job to take advantage of the elderly by over-charging them for services? I guess that's where we differ. I like justice. 61 years of age in 1985.
Hardly elderly. (even in 1985).
She simply isn't a smart shopper. It is her fault, let her pay.
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1 edit | Re: I can already hear the conversation Assume she wasn't senile, she was simply foolish. That advocates taking advantage of idiots. I don't support that either, though this entire country is founded on it and many here apparently applaud it as a virtue.
How unfashionable pointing out right and wrong has become. | |
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 | RadioDoc58ef2c0Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11 | Re: I can already hear the conversation How gratuitous your insults have become. | |
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2 edits | Re: I can already hear the conversation Yeah I'm totally out of control. Sometimes I just flare up like a rash and start attacking people virtually, frequently for no reason. I think it's personally some kind of displaced aggression because I have serious emotional issues. I'm not sure. | |
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| | |  John GaltForward, MarchPremium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
kudos:3 | Re: I can already hear the conversation said by Karl Bode:Yeah I'm totally out of control. Sometimes I just flare up like a rash and start attacking people virtually. I think it's personally some kind of displaced aggression because I have serious emotional issues. I'm not sure. 
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| | | fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | said by Karl Bode:Yeah I'm totally out of control. Sometimes I just flare up like a rash and start attacking people virtually, frequently for no reason. I think it's personally some kind of displaced aggression because I have serious emotional issues. I'm not sure. Congratulations! You've taken your first step to the road of your recovery. Faith will guide you back home!  j/k
Hey, I can disagree with you but I can still poke some harmless fun to you know.
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| John GaltForward, MarchPremium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
kudos:3 | said by Karl Bode:How unfashionable pointing out right and wrong has become. I am fascinated by what you consider to be "wrong"...
A legally operating for-profit company provides a service at a clearly specified price that a customer willingly subscribes to and is free to discontinue at ANY time with no penalty...and this is somehow wrong.
Maybe she LIKED the phone...eh?
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1 edit | Re: I can already hear the conversation quote:
I am fascinated by what you consider to be "wrong"...
Taking advantage of people is morally muddy to you, huh? | |
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| | | John GaltForward, MarchPremium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
kudos:3 | Re: I can already hear the conversation said by Karl Bode:Taking advantage of people is muddy to you, huh? You have failed to point out how she was "taken advantage of"...you have simply expressed your opinion.
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1 edit | Re: I can already hear the conversation $14,000 being too much to charge old people for a rotary phone is not an "opinion". Discussing anything reasonably with free-marketeers and their endless moral relativism is like boxing clouds.
Companies could be selling puppy heads to the autistic as a cure for autism and you'd all be making excuses about how they deserved it. | |
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| | | | | John GaltForward, MarchPremium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
kudos:3 | Re: I can already hear the conversation said by Karl Bode:$14,000 being too much to charge old people for a rotary phone is not an "opinion". Discussing anything reasonably with free-marketeers and their endless moral relativism is like boxing clouds. It is really more about "free will"...she was free to do whatever she wanted, she did what she did and now there is a "big uproar".
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1 edit | Re: I can already hear the conversation "She" is one of 750,000. And I'm willing to bet that if we fleshed out the numbers and dug into backgrounds, we'd find a massive portion of them to be elderly people on fixed incomes whose bills get paid automatically.
There is a conscious effort to take advantage of this segment. Either it's right, or it's wrong.
I don't like it, you think it's neat-o. | |
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| | | | | | | John GaltForward, MarchPremium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
kudos:3 | Re: I can already hear the conversation said by Karl Bode:I don't like it, you think it's neat-o. I think that it is up to them to do whatever they want to do...and if that includes "ignoring" something like the cost of the telephone, so be it.
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: I can already hear the conversation So basically your position is: screw them. Good old American empathy.
And what if some of these 750,000 people are senile? | |
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| | | | | | | | | fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3
1 edit | Re: I can already hear the conversation said by Karl Bode:So basically your position is: screw them. Good old American empathy. And what if some of these 750,000 people are senile? It's why you have another part of our system called the social services departments who have case workers established to watch over these people.
If these people are frail, elderyly, ill, or senile, they are probably under some sort of care. They may have family, friends, doctor, or social/case workers.
You really need to stop making excuses for everyone. Maybe some of these people WANTED to rent their phones.. and in the case of people who are supervised, maybe your beef should be with them instead.
Rally Karl, I SEE your point that you are trying to make here. I won't discount it. It would be nice is they weren't paying this fee.. I agree.. but where I fall apart with you is when the evil corporation grew horns and started sticking these old frail people with services they didn't want. Again, as I said before.. my stubborn grandmother won't change her phone service to save money because she's comfortable.
Of these 750K, do you have any numbers on how many of them don't want your sympathy? I would like to look at it this way.. send a truck to these people's home, take the phones and tell the old folk to go buy one of their own. Better? Anything more is charity work and for profit business is not in the business of charity.. no matter how much cumbaya is sung.
I also wonder how many of the notices about being able to buy your own phone got thrown in the trash by these young people when they went out.. you know, the "I never got that message" person who threw at least 5 of them away. I DO remember when this happened and I DO remember the notices that we got.
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| | | | |  N3OGHYo Soy Col. "Bat" GuanoPremium
join:2003-11-11
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kudos:1 | said by Karl Bode:$14,000 being too much to charge old people for a rotary phone is not an "opinion". Discussing anything reasonably with free-marketeers and their endless moral relativism is like boxing clouds. Companies could be selling puppy heads to the autistic as a cure for autism and you'd all be making excuses about how they deserved it. I can see if she wasn't told she could buy her own phone from Wal-Mart, or wasn't given notice she could purchase her old rotary phone from the phone company, but I doubt that was the case.
My grandmother leased her old rotary wall phone from Bell Atlantic (now Verizon) until the day she died. We told her over and over again she could just buy the thing outright, and never pay the fee again.
She repeatedly refused. She liked the fact that if the phone ever broke, or needed to be replaced, the phone company would come out and fix it for "free". As much as we explained it to her (the fact that she was paying more than it would cost to replace the phone over and over again) she refused.
I hardly think my grandmother (and I'm not making this up) was taken advantage of. She made a choice to enjoy the "security" that came with leasing the equipment.
I'm gonna bet that if the government steeped in and told the phone company they had to give these phones to these "victims", some advocacy group would step in and say they're robbing these seniors of their "security blanket"
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| | | | |  wifi4milezBig Russ, 1918 to 2008. Rest in Peace
join:2004-08-07
New York, NY | said by Karl Bode:$14,000 being too much to charge old people for a rotary phone is not an "opinion". Discussing anything reasonably with free-marketeers and their endless moral relativism is like boxing clouds. Companies could be selling puppy heads to the autistic as a cure for autism and you'd all be making excuses about how they deserved it. And what exactly are you suggesting they should have done? Clearly you cant expect that AT&T would/should have contacted all 40 million customers by phone in 1985 and told them they no longer needed to rent their phones, are you?? If so, that is the most ludicrous thing I have ever heard. As was mentioned numerous times already the "rental fee" is clearly listed on her phone bill that she was paying for the past 40+ years. As a middle aged person in 1985, she was more than capable of deciding not to continue renting the phones from AT&T, and MANY retail stores started selling replacement phones between then and now. MANY people today (including you and I) are paying fees and charges that they might not need to, but that is THEIR responsibility, certainly not the governments. I guarantee you that if I reviewed every single bill and charge for everything I have ever bought I could have found ways to do it cheaper, but thats just life.
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| Re: I can already hear the conversation quote:
Clearly you cant expect that AT&T would/should have contacted all 40 million customers by phone in 1985 and told them they no longer needed to rent their phones, are you?? If so, that is the most ludicrous thing I have ever heard.
Do I get to be part of this conversation? Or are you just going to make up my responses and respond to them? | |
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| | | | | | | wifi4milezBig Russ, 1918 to 2008. Rest in Peace
join:2004-08-07
New York, NY | Re: I can already hear the conversation said by Karl Bode: quote:
Clearly you cant expect that AT&T would/should have contacted all 40 million customers by phone in 1985 and told them they no longer needed to rent their phones, are you?? If so, that is the most ludicrous thing I have ever heard.
Do I get to be part of this conversation? Or are you just going to make up my responses and respond to them? Feel free to respond with your own answer then!
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| | | | | | John GaltForward, MarchPremium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
kudos:3 | said by wifi4milez:Clearly you cant expect that AT&T would/should have contacted all 40 million customers by phone in 1985 and told them they no longer needed to rent their phones, are you?? Actually, they did. You received a notice with your bill that informed you that you had the option of an outright purchase of your telephones. There was information of what services were or were not provided depending on whether or not you did or did not purchase the phone.
I was the proud owner of a Model 2500 touch-tone phone...I really LIKED that phone. It just felt right...not like the crap they sell you today.
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| | | | | |  KAD ImagingJust Shoot ItPremium
join:2002-09-21
Hialeah, FL | SO I guess they should remove the ban on Telco "Slamming" and allow them to add overpriced LD services to your bill without your knowledge. Hey, it's YOUR responsibility to call all LD carriers and ask them if you are a customer and tell them to cancell your services right? 
Good friken grief...
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| | | | | | | fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
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kudos:3 | Re: I can already hear the conversation said by KAD Imaging:SO I guess they should remove the ban on Telco "Slamming" and allow them to add overpriced LD services to your bill without your knowledge. Hey, it's YOUR responsibility to call all LD carriers and ask them if you are a customer and tell them to cancell your services right? Good friken grief... Where did that come from? and what does this have to do with the news item? No one had this charge slammed on their bill... this was an item that people had, they were told it was no longer necessary, and never bothered to remove it.
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| | | | | | | | No clown, but they could do what they do any other month for so many other things and make it clear on your bill that you are no longer required to lease the phone and no longer covered under that "policy" and if you would like to continue with the insurance to opt in, not out. | |
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| | |  Michieru2zzz zzz zzzPremium
join:2005-01-28
Miami, FL | Can you blame a stupid person? No
It just can't believe nobody told her to "just go buy a phone they come free with the plan."
Unless she is locked up in her home and has never seen the world or the street for that matter.
You can't blame a company for someone's ignorance. Taking advantage not likely it was a service they provided probably long ago and she still wants it. She never called and say "I want to cancel".
So if she had no problem with paying monthly for a phone, how can that be "taking advantage" of someone? | |
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1 edit | Re: I can already hear the conversation quote:
You can't blame a company for someone's ignorance
When they take advantage of them, can I call it sleazy? Will I need a permission slip to do so? And I'd bet the 750,000 are a blend of senile and foolish. Am I to applaud the milking of them (And $14k for a rotary phone is milking) as some kind of pleasant success story? | |
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| | | | | Michieru2zzz zzz zzzPremium
join:2005-01-28
Miami, FL | Re: I can already hear the conversation You can say what ever you want karl, I don't come here telling people what they should say, I come here to express my opinion like everyone else. So don't talk to me as if I where censoring what you should or should not say.
But let's be realistic here, do you seriously believe these people have not heard or someone told them in regards to all the news of cellphones and plans. Where tons of ads say "buy any sprint/verizon/cingular/at&twireless plan and get a "free" phone.
It's on TV and stuff like this is broadcasted in local channels as well. Immoral on the company end, most likely yes. But if the consumer does not want to switch then how can it be immoral if the consumer is agreeing to paying the phone without complaints.
When I read this story, I think of how uninformed or how people not try to look into new things because they think it's complicated and are already accustomed to using one device and they will stick to that device.
Kind of reminds me of my grandfather which kept on bitching that he did not want XP but wanted windows 98. I forced him into XP because he was so hot headed and eventually turned on his computer and used it with hardly any trouble.
It's nothing to do with being senile, but with being ignorant(at least in my case).
Now my grandfather is running on Xubuntu and has no problems as long as I did the install and what not. | |
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| Re: I can already hear the conversation quote:
Immoral on the company end, most likely yes.
That is my only point. quote:
But if the consumer does not want to switch then how can it be immoral if the consumer is agreeing to paying the phone without complaints.
Some are likely stubborn. But again, I'm guessing a vast majority of those 750,000 are elderly and do not properly understand their phone bills. Some because of senility.
I think a price-cap should be imposed on the amount they can charge the elderly for such antiquated products.
While we're at it, Customers dole out $750 in additional fees every year across industries, cumulatively spewing out $216 billion in such fees each year, the majority of which are bogus.
If we had a functional regulatory authority these things would be investigated and stopped. | |
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| | | | | | | wifi4milezBig Russ, 1918 to 2008. Rest in Peace
join:2004-08-07
New York, NY | Re: I can already hear the conversation said by Karl Bode:I think a price-cap should be imposed on the amount they can charge the elderly for such antiquated products. So you are suggesting that based on a persons age there should be a price cap on how much they pay for goods/services?? Somehow I dont see that going over very well with, well, ANYONE. Younger people would want the same "protection", and old people would be furious that people are assuming they are too stupid or senile to handle their own affairs. Perhaps another suggestion is in order?
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| | | | | | | Michieru2zzz zzz zzzPremium
join:2005-01-28
Miami, FL | Well don't you think we should educate the elderly or at least help them out and sit there even for hours just trying to explain something to them?
Also a price-cap should only exist for utilities not luxuries. If you want to use a cellphone that's your choice and if you use it just in case if you fall or hurt yourself you can still dial 911 even if the phone itself is not active.
Also to stop 216 billion in such bogus fees you are going to have to fight with the whole senate and if your lucky probably get just 2 votes.
If you want functional regulatory authority you must apply rules of a command economy into a market economy. Which is where our mixed economy comes from. | |
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| | | | | | |  ROCINANTEOriginal Member 007Premium
join:1999-06-29
Hartsdale, NY | said by Karl Bode:
Some are likely stubborn. But again, I'm guessing a vast majority of those 750,000 are elderly and do not properly understand their phone bills. Some because of senility. I think a price-cap should be imposed on the amount they can charge the elderly for such antiquated products. What the heck are you babbling about with these sweeping and patronizing generalizations about the elderly?
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| | | | | | | | said by Michieru2:But let's be realistic here, do you seriously believe these people have not heard or someone told them in regards to all the news of cellphones and plans. Where tons of ads say "buy any sprint/verizon/cingular/at&twireless plan and get a "free" phone. My parents never needed a cell phone nor were they interested until very recently. Some people don;t care about new technology and my guess is this woman used her phone rarely and then, only to talk to relatives.
said by Michieru2:Kind of reminds me of my grandfather which kept on bitching that he did not want XP but wanted windows 98. I forced him into XP because he was so hot headed and eventually turned on his computer and used it with hardly any trouble. It's nothing to do with being senile, but with being ignorant(at least in my case). It is not a matter of being ignorant but a matter of comfort. If your grandfather wanted Windows 98, it is because it is something he knew and was comfortable with. Some people, especially older people, don't like change and are not always willing to learn something new. | |
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| | | | | | | Michieru2zzz zzz zzzPremium
join:2005-01-28
Miami, FL | Re: I can already hear the conversation Very true, my grandfather once told me that but I simply forced upgraded him because I had many problems with Windows 98 and when I was in XP when I read a /. article in regards to no more norton antivirus 2002 support (correct me if I am wrong) and I said that was basically the last draw. I could of used AVG, MacAfee and some other program but I have decided to let him try Ubuntu and later moved him to Xubuntu since it's lighter.
Installed Xubuntu + Picasa + Epson C88+ printer + webmail = one happy old man. | |
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