Hybrids in Automotive http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r17289752 en Wed, 09 Dec 2009 03:45:29 EDT Wed, 09 Dec 2009 03:45:29 EDT Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17379821 lotusracer :
said by iLive4Apple See Profile :

Yea Lol, thats why I bought it, but I did freak out when driving it off the lot ( gas enigne turned off and I thought it stalled)
When we test drove it, I had my wife pull it into the garage so she could see if she liked the feel of it.... since it was shaped differently than her boxy previous Nissan Sentra. She put it into park, but didn't think to shut the key off because the gas engine wasn't running. We got out, and as we walked around the car, it started up! Sure surprised us both. :)

said by iLive4Apple See Profile :

Wow so you had one of the first Prius car's to be sold in the US. Thats awsome! How is it running still, no battery failures or major problems?
We are a long way from owning one of the first Prius in the US. I think that one of the earliest Prius owners on the Yahoo Prius list bought his car about 9 months earlier than us. Back then, you placed your order on the net, and then went into your Toyota dealer to finalize it and put $500 down. The car showed up 3 months later.

Ours is running great, with no major (or minor) problems. We've even still got the original 12 volt accessory battery in it. In the earlier Prius, it is quite common to kill the 12 volt accesory battery by leaving a door ajar overnight. Once you flatten that battery, it usually never comes back. It's similar to a riding lawnmower battery, and about it's only duty is to boot up the computer so the car will start off of the hybrid battery. I haven't seen any complaints about this in the 'newer' Prius, so perhaps they changed something.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17379821 Fri, 01 Dec 2006 17:40:41 EDT Re: Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17379150 CylonRed : And the early tax breaks for the hybrids were very good as well - effectively took the price for a lot of hybrids in the last 3 years to $10K but a lot of that did depend on the state and the state tax breaks...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17379150 Fri, 01 Dec 2006 15:50:05 EDT Re: Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17376880 iLive4Apple : Yea Lol, thats why I bought it, but I did freak out when driving it off the lot ( gas enigne turned off and I thought it stalled)

I also do like the push button start too.

Wow so you had one of the first Prius car's to be sold in the US. Thats awsome! How is it running still, no battery failures or major problems?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17376880 Fri, 01 Dec 2006 08:35:50 EDT Re: Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17376847 lotusracer :
said by iLive4Apple See Profile :

Yea and most people think Hybrids are way over priced. My Toyota Prius is not, its in the same price range as any other mid sized sedan is. I bought mine because it is cool, it can run with the electric motor only, saves money at the gas pump too.
I think that most people see a fully loaded Prius (or other hybrid) and don't compare it to a similarly equipped "regular" car. When we bought our Prius new in 2001 a similarly equipped Corolla was only $1,000 more. The 'gee-whiz' fun factor of the Prius was well worth that alone.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17376847 Fri, 01 Dec 2006 08:27:19 EDT Re: Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17375280 iLive4Apple : Yea and most people think Hybrids are way over priced. My Toyota Prius is not, its in the same price range as any other mid sized sedan is. I bought mine because it is cool, it can run with the electric motor only, saves money at the gas pump too.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17375280 Thu, 30 Nov 2006 22:41:05 EDT Re: Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17370666 burgermeister :
said by MPScan See Profile :

It's new technology. Nobody on here, no matter what you think, can actually account for real world experience. We're all in new territory. Frankly, we won't be in a position to evaluate the end results for a few more years.
It is newer technology, no doubt. But if everyone were like you and didn't try new "unproven" technology, nothing would change.

As I hybrid owner, I purchased because I am concerned for the future. I didn't do it because it was the "in thing" nor did I do it simply to save money on gas; I did it to use less fuel and run a cleaner car -- and less fuel simply translates in the less $$$ at the pump, obviously. I wanted to spend my money on progressive technology and I'm willing to pay more to enable the development. After all, if nobody buys these cars (and future alternative fuel cars), no company would build them.

For the most part, hybrid owners are voting for change using their wallet. They put their money where there mouth is.

It's not always about the money.

You mentioned that you say what you say because you're a smart businessman. I say what I say because I am a smart resident of the planet and want to leave a smaller footprint. Hybrids may not be the final answer, but they're a step in the right direction. And I have no problem helping to finance development through my purchase.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17370666 Thu, 30 Nov 2006 11:01:41 EDT Re: Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17368395 dandeman :
said by MPScan See Profile :

I'm not in the position to debate "lab data" or some subjective evidence that Toyota hasn't replaced parts (on newer vehicles).

It's new technology. Nobody on here, no matter what you think, can actually account for real world experience. We're all in new territory. Frankly, we won't be in a position to evaluate the end results for a few more years.

I am not knocking the technology. I'm simply curious if their "lab data" actually proves to be true in the near future.
You might think about whether Boeing, NASA, IBM, Intel, Toyota, or any other high technology company has the luxury to wait for "real world" experience to know if a design is robust enough to survive its intended environment, before putting that design into production..

The cost of failure on a large project can easily break a large company financially given the scale of some of the projects these companies undertake. I've read that the R & D cost on the Prius was around $4 billion. What would you guess Boeing's R & D would on the 777 would be for example?

You better believe their "lab data" work has been done to know what the failure rate will be, otherwise they would be blindly betting the company.. I speak from personal experience from my first career as an electrical engineer at one of the above companies directly involved in reliability and product design quality.

Sure, every once in a while there's a highly publicized miss.. usually involving a new and previously unknown failure mechanism, e.g. foam striking the shuttle wing with enough force to penetrate for example.

Reliability engineering, and accelerated life testing methodologies have been around a long time. For example, the lowest level classification of reliability testing on electronic parts we did was to a 100,000 hour power on life cycle.. Without going into details to relate this to a vehicle life cycle, that's around a 10X factor to a vehicle lasting 200,000 miles..

btw in my second career, we engineer and install power plants that provide uninterrupted AC power to keep telephone systems and IT data centers running when the commercial power blinks. These systems use industrial battery systems that are warranted for 20 year life cycle, the lesser batteries to 10 years. Even what we sell as 3 year batteries are actually designed to a 10 year life cycle..

Do you really think Toyota is blindly betting their long hard earned reputation for producing quality products, risking major customer dissatisfaction and loss of market share?

Now some car companies have done that, but I believe the track record is that they pay dearly financially for being so careless or short sighted....


]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17368395 Wed, 29 Nov 2006 23:14:01 EDT Re: Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17368017 3SGTE :
said by iLive4Apple See Profile :

Actualy Hybrid technology have been around for a LONG time.
As far as manufacturing experience goes, Toyota has decades of experience selling/manufacturing/maintaining electric vehicles (battery powered forklifts).

They are not 'new' to this.
--
Overheard: "I could careless matter of Fact"
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17368017 Wed, 29 Nov 2006 22:25:47 EDT Re: Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17367740 lotusracer :
said by MPScan See Profile :

It's going to be a blast when, in the next year or two, the 1st gen hybrid's need battery replacements which aren't going to be cheap.
There are many Prius owners on the Yahoo Prius list with several hundred thousand miles on their cars.... and with no hybrid battery problems.

Andrew Grant became well known for using a Prius as a taxi in Vancouver... ran it for over 200,000 miles. Toyota bought it back from him for testing and he bought a new Prius to take it's place!

One of many places you can read about him: »www.treehugger.com/files/2005/08···_wit.php

Don't think your wish for Prius battery failure is going to come true.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17367740 Wed, 29 Nov 2006 21:46:16 EDT Re: Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17367214 iLive4Apple : Actualy Hybrid technology have been around for a LONG time. And the Prius has actualy been sold starting in Japan in 1997 and has had no failures.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17367214 Wed, 29 Nov 2006 20:26:03 EDT Re: Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17367097 MPScan : I'm not in the position to debate "lab data" or some subjective evidence that Toyota hasn't replaced parts (on newer vehicles).

It's new technology. Nobody on here, no matter what you think, can actually account for real world experience. We're all in new territory. Frankly, we won't be in a position to evaluate the end results for a few more years.

I am not knocking the technology. I'm simply curious if their "lab data" actually proves to be true in the near future. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17367097 Wed, 29 Nov 2006 20:08:13 EDT Re: Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17367034 justin : So you're not going to "have a blast" after all?

Anyway you should probably do some reading, unless you think Toyota is lying when they say:

quote:
"The Prius battery (and the battery-power management system) has been designed to maximize battery life. In part this is done by keeping the battery at an optimum charge level - never fully draining it and never fully recharging it. As a result, the Prius battery leads a pretty easy life. We have lab data showing the equivalent of 180,000 miles with no deterioration and expect it to last the life of the vehicle. We also expect battery technology to continue to improve: the second-generation model battery is 15% smaller, 25% lighter, and has 35% more specific power than the first. This is true of price as well. Between the 2003 and 2004 models, service battery costs came down 36% and we expect them to continue to drop so that by the time replacements may be needed it won't be a much of an issue. Since the car went on sale in 2000, Toyota has not replaced a single battery for wear and tear.”


It doesn't sound like these cars are "short lived" at all. Unless you think 180,000 miles with no deterioration is "short lived".

This isn't your cellphone or laptop here.

You can also look at the maintenance record for a 2001 prius taxi that did over 331k. Do you see a battery replacement there?

»www.hybridexperience.ca/Pages/im···scan.pdf]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17367034 Wed, 29 Nov 2006 20:00:47 EDT Re: Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17366965 MPScan :
said by justin See Profile :

said by MPScan See Profile :

It's going to be a blast when
Why is it going "to be a blast"? You are THAT emotional about someone elses choice of transport that you'd be cheering any troubles they have?


I'm not emotional at all. If fact, I applaud the auto industry for pioneering this technology and attempting to refine it so that the typical consumer would choose an alternative fuel source.

However, I do believe that those car companies who have produced these hybrid vehicles have not been completely honest with the people who purchase them. If they were, they would have offered the option of an extended warranty which would cover replacement costs of the components of these vehicles which they know will wear out after their standard warranty has expired.

Honestly, I am simply a smart business guy who always does a cost/benefit analysis when making any major purchase. Frankly, I don't think that the hybrids that auto makers are pushing on us these days are the real solution to our energy woes. Hybrids are the "in thing" these days, but aren't the long term solutions.

The car companies know this. They also know that the products they have produced (which also offer federal tax credits) are short lived and are easily targeted to the masses.

The car makers know they can turn a short term profit at the long term expense of the consumer. They're not offering a real solution.

Just IMHO. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17366965 Wed, 29 Nov 2006 19:50:07 EDT Re: Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17366907 justin :
said by MPScan See Profile :

It's going to be a blast when
Why is it going "to be a blast"? You are THAT emotional about someone elses choice of transport that you'd be cheering any troubles they have?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17366907 Wed, 29 Nov 2006 19:40:27 EDT Re: Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17366716 MPScan : While I am all for Hybrid's and the revolutionary technology they are using today ..

... It's going to be a blast when, in the next year or two, the 1st gen hybrid's need battery replacements which aren't going to be cheap.

How much will that cost compared to the savings gained in the additional MPG efficiency? ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17366716 Wed, 29 Nov 2006 19:14:01 EDT Re: Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17366571 iLive4Apple : I was going to get an insight but I found out it only has 2 seats and my kids can't ride in that. Can yours go in just in all electric motor. Mine can only go up to 45 MPH without the gas engine on.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17366571 Wed, 29 Nov 2006 18:51:57 EDT Re: Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17364773 Dennis : Looks like i'm late to the Prius thread here :), but I drive a 2001 Honda Insight. Lifetime avg 54.7mpg w/ 47k miles on it.

cute car, good for commuting, but only have 2 seats. Next car will probably be a Prius if I go hybrid again. I'm a technology whore.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17364773 Wed, 29 Nov 2006 14:09:35 EDT Re: Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17341288 3SGTE :
said by iLive4Apple See Profile :

Yes, the little 1.5 liter engine uses the Atkinson cycle engine which prevent's pumping loss,
Not "prevents", reduces.
--
Overheard: "I could careless matter of Fact"
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17341288 Sat, 25 Nov 2006 18:38:48 EDT Re: Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17340170 justin :
said by dandeman See Profile :

Is there something fundamentally wrong with that concept in your view?
No. not at all.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17340170 Sat, 25 Nov 2006 14:30:47 EDT Re: Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17340164 iLive4Apple : Yes, the little 1.5 liter engine uses the Atkinson cycle engine which prevent's pumping loss, where as regular gas engines use the Otto cycle which has pumping loss and waste gas. And the transmission is efficient somehow. Of course when I am getting on the interstate it rev's up very high. But I make it on the interstate. It drives just like a normal car except you can't feel it shifting gears.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17340164 Sat, 25 Nov 2006 14:29:18 EDT Re: Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17340133 dandeman : Correct. The Prius in effect throws away less energy that came from petrol as does a conventional vehicle.... There's significant savings that can be had in a drive train that levels out the energy demand.

Is there something fundamentally wrong with that concept in your view?

How do conventional cars throw away energy?

1. every time you touch the brakes.. even through the Prius has conversion losses in regen braking, it is not 100% loss as in a conventional car.

2. automatic tranmsission torque convertor heat (energy) loss. This is significant.. the Prius dual motor generator, single planetary gearset has higher efficiency.

3. everytime you go up a hill, you give the car more gas to maintain speed.. you do the same thing with the accelerator in a Pruis, but part of the additional energy comes from stored energy the down hill section you most likely traversed.. Again not perfect energy conversion, but energy lost than in a conventional vehicle, which has no energy leveling capability on rolling hills.

4. And of course I could go on and on with idling, car not in motion modes, in which there's zero mpg efficiency in a conventional vehicle..]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17340133 Sat, 25 Nov 2006 14:24:03 EDT Re: Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17340087 justin : he means the power came from the gas engine because how do you think you got to sufficient speed in order to regen brake in the first place? the gas engine - or the batteries, which were charged by the gas engine.

Everything still comes back to the internal combustion engine. The prius just gets good mpg because it is
* aerodynamic
* fuel efficient (small motor, only used when necessary)
* re-uses some momentum (braking creates some power)
* tricky transmission (keeps motor near optimum efficiency rpm)

In short, the car is just not wasteful.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17340087 Sat, 25 Nov 2006 14:13:02 EDT Re: Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17339435 iLive4Apple : But when you are coasting or braking the gas engine is completely turned off.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17339435 Sat, 25 Nov 2006 11:53:54 EDT Re: Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17339331 anon :
said by iLive4Apple See Profile :

Now you can recharge all your battery with regen braking which is used especialy when in all electric mode.
Regen braking is not used more (or less) in EV mode than when in combination mode or gas only mode. It only depends on how hard you press the brake pedal and if any of the safety features (ABS, TC, etc.) are currently engaged. Because the Prius has two motors, one is always acting as a generator (though they switch personas depending on the circumstances). In any case, even if you charge the battery with regen, the power still came from the gas engine.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17339331 Sat, 25 Nov 2006 11:32:22 EDT Re: Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17307487 iLive4Apple : Now you can recharge all your battery with regen braking which is used especialy when in all electric mode.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17307487 Sun, 19 Nov 2006 22:39:38 EDT Re: Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17303589 anon :
said by justin See Profile :

I don't buy that explanation. There is no magic energy for free here (regenerative braking aside).

If you burn X amount of gas to move the car using petrol only, you are DEFINITELY going to burn more gas to charge batteries to turn electric motors to move the car at the same speed.
Yes, but... The Prius' engine is sized for steady state running rather than acceleration like a conventional car. Therefore, it almost always runs in the 36% to 40% efficiency range rather than the 20% efficiency range that a normal car has. At very low power demand the Prius runs on electric only because the hit you take from energy conversion is less than the poor engine efficiency those kind of power demands produce. The motors also provide the extra acceleration required so that you don't notice that you are in a car with a very small engine compared to the car size.

Every bit of energy in the Prius comes from the gas tank, so things like regenerative braking just let you throw away less energy as heat. Compared to a conventional car, it appears like the Prius is getting something for nothing--but that's not the case. It's just using the difference between 20% efficiency and 36% efficiency. As a driver you can help the Prius get more mpg by using techniques that minimize electricity and engine use.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17303589 Sun, 19 Nov 2006 09:34:48 EDT Re: Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17297413 3SGTE :
said by iLive4Apple See Profile :

What is pumping loss?
Basically, the energy required by the engine to pump air.

The air in the crankcase that creates resistance to downward movement of the pistons, and the energy required to "suck" the air into the intake manifold and compress it in the cylinders.

Unnecessary excess compression of the intake charge is a pumping loss that is avoided in the Atkinson cycle.
(Atkinson effective compression ratio is different from the expansion ratio.) The smaller C/R vs E/R is the main point of the reduction of pumping loss.

On some of its vehicles, I believe that BMW uses its Valvetronic system mostly without throttle control, pumping loss reduction is among the main benefits. »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valvetronic
--
Overheard: "I could careless matter of Fact"
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17297413 Sat, 18 Nov 2006 00:47:56 EDT Re: Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17297306 iLive4Apple : Sorry I wasn't pointing my comment to you, I worded it badly also. I was trying to put what was on the site about to Prius and hit the post button to early. Sorry if it read rude. I don't understand how my Prius can even leave the driveway because it supposedly does have one gear ratio acording to that site. I am not sure how it would though. That seems kinda strange.

"The Prius Transmission
The Prius transmission produces one of the effects of a CVT but not the other. The spin rate of the engine can be selected to produce the required power but otherwise to spin no faster than is necessary to maintain fuel efficiency. The Prius engine tone therefore sounds as if the car has a CVT because it does not rise as the car picks up speed. Instead, it rises and falls with power demand, in other words, how hard you press on the accelerator pedal. The Prius transmission does not, however, multiply up engine torque at low vehicle speed. This is because it has only one gear ratio. Effectively, the engine is coupled to the wheels as if the car is always in top gear. This would be a crippling limitation, if not for the presence of a powerful electric motor in addition to the petrol engine. With this motor adding its considerable torque, people have said that the car feels as if it's always in 1st gear!"

»www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/pri···smission

Also what is different about the Prius is that it has an Atkinson engine instead of an Otto Cycle to prevent pumping loss. What is pumping loss?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17297306 Sat, 18 Nov 2006 00:19:56 EDT Re: Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17296959 3SGTE :
said by iLive4Apple See Profile :

Actualy the Prius has no CVT or transmission at all.
The Prius has an Engine.

The output from the engine needs to be transmitted to the wheels.

There is a mechanism that does so, therefore it is a transmission. The transmission in the Prius does not operate at a fixed ratio. The transmission ratio is effectively Continuously Variable. Most certainly the Prius transmission does not use a steel belt, but I certainly did not say that, and that does not "define" a CVT.

To refer to something as a CVT does not need to imply that it has a specific mechanical construction. The term (IMHO) is concept based.

Is a "rotary" any less an engine because it has no pistons? NO. Mechanical construction/configuration does not dictate the definition of engine, any less than it does for transmission or CVT.

What I wrote was not a complete explanation of how a Prius or its transmission operates. I wrote a response to Justin's questions about efficiency and tradeoffs. There are innumerable additions and greater detail that could have been added, but a line needed to be drawn somewhere.

Playing word games is disingenuous. It doesn't help to convey the points that I was trying to make.

Edit: Didn't mean to come across as harsh, the links are good, but kind of overkill for this thread.

Added "effectively", I originally didn't feel it necessary in the context of this discussion. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17296959 Fri, 17 Nov 2006 23:09:16 EDT Re: Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17296533 iLive4Apple : Actualy the Prius has no CVT or transmission at all.

»www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/pri···cal-info

»www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/pri···smission

And this page better explains how the Prius works]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17296533 Fri, 17 Nov 2006 21:44:14 EDT Re: Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17296518 3SGTE : Every gasoline engine has an operation range (RPM/load) where it generates the most output for the least amount of fuel burned.

In conventional vehicles, the process of accelerating is extremely inefficient, the engine operates far outside its most efficient range.

In a Prius, there are 3-4 factors that work in one's favor, especially in the city.

1. No idling at a stop.

2. CVT operation
CVT operation allows the engine speed to remain in the efficient range during acceleration. If operator inputs are reasonable, battery energy is used as a supplement during acceleration, again to help the engine stay in its efficient range. If the battery needs to be recharged, again, charging can occur with the RPM/load in the most efficient range.

3. Atkinson cycle.
The engine controls intake valve timing to deliberately underfill the cylinders with air fuel mixture, this accomplishes two things. Reduced pumping losses, and more of the expansion energy of the burning air fuel mixture can be captured, as opposed to wasted pressure going out the exhaust valves. (A greater percentage of energy can be extracted from the gasoline.) Electric supplementation and decoupled engine speed allows this, in a conventional vehicle the engine response/output would be inappropriate.

4. Regenerative braking.
This one is a simple one. Energy otherwise wasted is recaptured.

As for conversion efficiencies, they have been considered. Part of the powerflow from the engine to the wheels in a Prius is mechanical, part is electric. This is how the CVT ratio is determined. The balance between peak engine efficiency and power conversion efficiency is always considered as the system decides the optimum balance of mechanical/electric drive.

Likewise/as a result, the system does not use the batteries strictly to prevent engine operation. Overall efficiency is prioritized.


--
Overheard: "I could careless matter of Fact"
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17296518 Fri, 17 Nov 2006 21:41:23 EDT Re: Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17296493 Snakeoil : If I understand your question:

Why do hybrids get lower MPG on wide open highways vs city/rush hour traffic?

I remember hearing/reading that is they way they are designed. They are setup to give their best preformance in traffic vs wide open highway. Meaning all the stopping helps generate juice to charge the batteries, so the gas engine is used very little in city driving. But when on the open highway, you place more of a demand on the batteries to maintain curising speed, which means the gas engine has to run more often, to recharge the batteries. By the gas engine running more often, and for longer periods of time, you burn more fuel.
--
Say no to the IRS.. Yes to the Fair Tax! This beer is for: 464th bat. 98th div. Combat engineers. Hillside Ave schenectady NY.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17296493 Fri, 17 Nov 2006 21:35:15 EDT Re: Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17296165 lotusracer :
said by justin See Profile :

then it isnt truly steady speed, the accelerator pedel is being moved very slightly (add some power, remove some power). come to think of it, isn't that why the national limit used to be 50?
The national limit was 55.... by law in 1974, modified in the late 80s and repealed in 1995. It was intended to save gas.

I can set my cruise control to keep a steady speed, anywhere from around 25mph and up... you can see the car cycle between regen and electric use on the MFD.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17296165 Fri, 17 Nov 2006 20:35:04 EDT Re: Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17296125 justin : then it isnt truly steady speed, the accelerator pedel is being moved very slightly (add some power, remove some power). But the amount of energy recaptured is absolutely insignificant and represents the un-even nature of "steady" driving.

Doesn't change my point at all.

I think it is all down to aerodynamics. The sweet spot for MPG is whatever is is (steady 52mph or whatever) and beyond that, well, you're pushing too much air and mpg declines. In fact come to think of it, isn't that why the national limit used to be 50?

If prius drivers drove highway at 50 and urban at whatever, they'd surely find better consumption on highway vs city - or there is something else suboptimal going on with the drivetrain.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17296125 Fri, 17 Nov 2006 20:28:07 EDT Re: Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17296075 lotusracer :
said by justin See Profile :

if you are tootling along the highway at 50mph steady speed you're not recapturing anything. Even if you stop every 50 miles to stretch your legs, the energy recaptured is minimal. Of course in city traffic you are recapturing some percentage of the energy you used to accelerate you to 20 mph each time you slow or stop.
While driving at speeds even higher than 50mph you do indeed recapture energy. One simply needs to ride along in one of these cars and watch the energy screen to see how it works.

Here is a video of one in operation in a 2004-2007 Prius:

»youtube.com/watch?v=HszzwKUG0qs


Some places to read about it:
»john1701a.com/
»privatenrg.com/

Energy monitor screenshot from 2001-2003 Prius
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17296075 Fri, 17 Nov 2006 20:21:11 EDT Re: Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17295861 justin :
said by lotusracer See Profile :

said by iLive4Apple See Profile :

using the gas engine to recharge the batteries is still very efficient because it uses very little gas to recharge it. Whe you floor it, most the power is coming from the electric motors in the form of torque. The Gas just sits there and help a little and recharges the battery. The Prius electric motors produces 295 lb/ft
People just don't seem to get it that in a normal car, the gas engine basically just moves the car... nothing is "recaptured", but in a hybrid, some of that energy makes it back into the batteries.
I get that. But if you are tootling along the highway at 50mph steady speed you're not recapturing anything. Even if you stop every 50 miles to stretch your legs, the energy recaptured is minimal.
Of course in city traffic you are recapturing some percentage of the energy you used to accelerate you to 20 mph each time you slow or stop.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17295861 Fri, 17 Nov 2006 19:50:40 EDT Re: Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17295829 lotusracer :
said by iLive4Apple See Profile :

using the gas engine to recharge the batteries is still very efficient because it uses very little gas to recharge it. Whe you floor it, most the power is coming from the electric motors in the form of torque. The Gas just sits there and help a little and recharges the battery. The Prius electric motors produces 295 lb/ft
People just don't seem to get it that in a normal car, the gas engine basically just moves the car... nothing is "recaptured", but in a hybrid, some of that energy makes it back into the batteries.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17295829 Fri, 17 Nov 2006 19:47:02 EDT Re: Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17295828 justin : I don't buy that explanation. There is no magic energy for free here (regenerative braking aside).

If you burn X amount of gas to move the car using petrol only, you are DEFINITELY going to burn more gas to charge batteries to turn electric motors to move the car at the same speed. Otherwise you are breaking a law of physics or three and should probably look at how you can harness the prius drivetrain to produce free energy!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17295828 Fri, 17 Nov 2006 19:47:00 EDT Re: Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17295572 iLive4Apple : Exactly and using the gas engine to recharge the batteries is still very efficient because it uses very little gas to recgarge it. Whe you floor it, most the power is coming from the electric motors in the form of torque. The Gas just sits there and help a little and recharges the battery. The Prius electric motors produces 295 lb/ft ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17295572 Fri, 17 Nov 2006 19:07:07 EDT Re: Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17295529 lotusracer :
said by justin See Profile :

yeah but then if you run electric you are draining the battery which has to be recharged, and that is the gas engine. So I'm still not seeing how it is more efficient to convert petrol --> internal combustion --> electricity --> batteries --> wheels (around town) than converting petrol --> internal combustion --> wheels (highway)
The car also generates electricity during braking... using the electric motors.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17295529 Fri, 17 Nov 2006 18:59:17 EDT Re: Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17295441 justin :
said by iLive4Apple See Profile :

My Prius does best in the city. And actualy in my area in the city I run in all electric most for 1-2 miles.
yeah but then if you run electric you are draining the battery which has to be recharged, and that is the gas engine.

So I'm still not seeing how it is more efficient to convert petrol --> internal combustion --> electricity --> batteries --> wheels (around town)

than converting petrol --> internal combustion --> wheels (highway)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17295441 Fri, 17 Nov 2006 18:43:56 EDT Re: Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17295350 iLive4Apple : My Prius does best in the city. And actualy in my area in the city I run in all electric most for 1-2 miles.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17295350 Fri, 17 Nov 2006 18:27:20 EDT Re: Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17295331 lotusracer :
said by justin See Profile :

I'm curious, what is the engineering reason why highway mpg is lower than around town mpg for the prius? it seems to me it should be vice versa. Is there something about the design that is more efficient at 20mph stop start than 70mph constant? Oh wait, I know why.. because drag goes up exponentially with speed, right? So if you could drive your prius at 45mph on the highway, you'd see over 50mpg?
Drag may have a little to do with it... but mostly it has to do with the fact that around town, you are more likely to get more benefits from the electric part of the drivetrain. You can get some pure electric "stealth" driving in town, where on the highway, you tend to use gas only or gas/electric combined.

Years ago on the Yahoo Prius list, at least with the 'classic' 2001-2003 Prius it was determined that MPG begins to drop off at around 62mph. If I remember correctly, several owners said that the best figures were around constant 45mph.

Something interesting I've seen myself is that driving highways on level ground can sometimes bring you lower economy figures than when you are driving on slightly hilly terrain. Odd when you consider that the constantly variable transmission can really rev the engine up when you go up a hill!

Several things can affect a person's hybrid economy experience... short trips will lower your average.... cold weather will lower your average. But then, those same things will lower economy figures in any car.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17295331 Fri, 17 Nov 2006 18:23:10 EDT Re: Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17295257 justin : I'm curious, what is the engineering reason why highway mpg is lower than around town mpg for the prius?

it seems to me it should be vice versa. Around town you are accelerating the car and decelerating it which even if you recapture the momentum with regenerative braking has to be very power hungry due to efficiency losses. On the highway you only need to overcome rolling resistance and wind resistance.

Is there something about the design that is more efficient at 20mph stop start than 70mph constant?

Oh wait, I know why.. because drag goes up exponentially with speed, right? so to propel something with drag at steady 70mph vs steady 35mph, although you complete the journey twice as quickly, you need three (or definitely more than twice) as much pushing power?

So if you could drive your prius at 45mph on the highway, you'd see over 50mpg?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17295257 Fri, 17 Nov 2006 18:09:45 EDT Re: Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17294261 dandeman : Own a 2006 Prius Hybrid... The average MPG on a recent 7500 mile cross country trip was 51.7mpg..

Average would have been even better if trip had not included long periods of driving 75-80mph on I-90 and other western interstates where speed limit is 75mph. It was averaging around 44mpg at those speeds.. Other places saw mpg as high as 64mpg at times..

Very comfortable cross country car!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17294261 Fri, 17 Nov 2006 15:21:27 EDT Re: Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17293812 lotusracer : Once you drive a hybrid and sit through red lights with your gas engine off, traffic jams just don't seem to matter any more..... :)

I actually enjoy driving our Prius as much as I do my Lotus (in different ways of course).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17293812 Fri, 17 Nov 2006 14:18:24 EDT Re: Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17292883 burgermeister : I have a 2005 Ford Escape Hybrid.

I love it! :-)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17292883 Fri, 17 Nov 2006 11:39:36 EDT Re: Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17292863 iLive4Apple : I currently get 51 MPG and thats a mixture of city and interstate]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17292863 Fri, 17 Nov 2006 11:35:58 EDT Re: Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17292307 lotusracer :
said by iLive4Apple See Profile :

Does anyone own a Hybrid?
I own a 2006 Toyota Pirus Hybrid
We've owned a 2001 Prius since taking delivery of it new in June 2001. It's great!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17292307 Fri, 17 Nov 2006 09:59:00 EDT Re: Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17291366 Defcon888 :
said by iLive4Apple See Profile :

Does anyone own a Hybrid?

I own a 2006 Toyota Pirus Hybrid
I don't, but what mileage are you getting so far?
--
defcon888@gmail.com
send me spam!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17291366 Fri, 17 Nov 2006 01:47:12 EDT Hybrids http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17289752 iLive4Apple : Does anyone own a Hybrid?

I own a 2006 Toyota Pirus Hybrid]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17289752 Thu, 16 Nov 2006 20:41:56 EDT