imsystem
join:2004-04-02
Red Bluff, CA
| [Line Problem] Cant upgrade but im close enough
So i have had 3.0 speeds at my place before but now i only have 1.5. I try to upgrade and they say no cause of my line test
Trunk Status IS-NR
DSL Down
Relative Capacity Occupation (0 - 100%) 57
Noise Margin (-64 to 63 dB) 11
Transmitted Signal Power (-31 to 31 dBm) 17
Signal Attenuation (0 to 127 dB) 24
Max Attainable Bit Rate (Kbps) 2880
Current Bit Rate (Kbps) 1536
Cell Count 2378820949
DSL Up
Relative Capacity Occupation (0 - 100%) 53
Noise Margin (-64 to 63 dB) 16
Transmitted Signal Power (-31 to 31 dBm) 1
Signal Attenuation (0 to 127 dB) 15
Max Attainable Bit Rate (Kbps) 800
Current Bit Rate (Kbps) 384
Cell Count 678814042
So what do those tests mean.
I know were the co with the dsl is at. I only live about 3 blocks from there.
The co distance check from this site shows this
Tehama, Red Bluff
CA 96080
Phone: 530-527-XXXX
about 1120 feet
Wire center (CO)
RDBLCA01
My modem is a 4100
Is there anything i can do on my end to improve these readings and be able to upgrade. |
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d_l
Barsoom
Premium,MVM
join:2002-12-08
Reno, NV
| Something is strange here.
This: "Signal Attenuation (0 to 127 dB) 24" means that your line is relatively short. Short enough that it should qualify for any speed plan. BTW, the line distance estimator here at DSLReports is very approximate and almost always grossly underestimates the actual wire distance, but that attenuation reading agrees with a short loop length estimate.
This: "Transmitted Signal Power (-31 to 31 dBm) 17" means your modem isn't even using all the power available to it. It could go up to 20.0 dBm if it needed a better signal at your phone jack.
This: "Max Attainable Bit Rate (Kbps) 2880" means your line simply can't handle 3008 sync speeds, but that is in extreme disagreement with what a typical 24.0 dB line attenuation can do.
Is there any chance that you have the modem wire plugged into t the wrong side of one of the dual-jacked, microfilters? I'm trying to see why your line's potential speeds are so anomalously low. |
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David
No,there is another.
Premium,VIP
join:2002-05-30
Granite City, IL
clubs:
 ·DIRECTV
 ·magicjack.com
 ·AT&T Midwest
| The other thing I am curious about is why is your capacity so high? 57% at 1536 and according to the modem 100% would be 2800. That seems to be a bit high (or low) for a line that has a 24db signal attenuation. my first thought would be a really old or bad modem. I have seen really bad wiring inside a premise do this as well. Although i will have to agree with d_l  as well, you don't have it plugged into the phone side of the filter do you?
WCS is plug it in at the nid and see if you can get a reading from outside (depending on modem).
--
If you have a topic in the direct forum please reply to it or a post of mine, I get a notification when you do this.
Koetting Ford, Granite City, illinois... YOU'RE FIRED!!
|
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d_l
Barsoom
Premium,MVM
join:2002-12-08
Reno, NV
| David at the time I wrote the above, the wrong side of a microfilter was all I could think of that might cause the strange conditions, but with more thought I concluded that phone side of the filter would raise the attenuation much higher than 24.0 dB so I don't favor that idea now.
If a passive problem (something like a wrongly connected filter) isn't the problem, then maybe an active and continuous RFI source is cutting down the line's maximum capacity. This sort of problem wouldn't affect the attenuation.
The modem maximum sync tool: »SBC DSL FAQ »How can I check for the maximum attainable sync speeds with a 5100b/4100 modem? might show if something like this was the problem. The tone bin loads might have a "chewed up" or even a "picket fence" look if there was an interference problem. |
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imsystem
join:2004-04-02
Red Bluff, CA
| Downstream Maxrate (Estimated): 2608
Upstream Maxrate (Estimated): 690
Bit tones with notches/missing bits:
bit(s) 38 163.875 - 168.1875 KHz
bit(s) 51:52 219.9375 - 228.5625 KHz
bit(s) 62 267.375 - 271.6875 KHz
bit(s) 110 474.375 - 478.6875 KHz
bit(s) 113:115 487.3125 - 500.25 KHz
bit(s) 142:255 612.375 - 1104 KHz
»www.hostmystuff.net/myimage/albu···blin.png
there is the info from my tech readout but i have no clue what I'm seeing other than the max rates.
i checked the phone plug and its plugged in correctly. One thing i noticed is the phone line to modem goes under the flouresent lights in the room. Would that affect this. |
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d_l
Barsoom
Premium,MVM
join:2002-12-08
Reno, NV
| reply to imsystem
It might, especially if the connecting cord is of a flat (untwisted wire), satin type. If it is causing interference, it would have to be forcing all your download tone bins to the left of the potential frequency range.
Otherwise that chart looks fairly normal for the 1536/384 speeds. There is no "picket fence" effect that would have explained the anomalously low max attainable sync speeds as compared to your low attenuation.  At least the tool, pretty much confirms the max rates that were reported to you (note the tool will always err on the conservative side of the max attainable speeds). If the tool knew that your modem was only using 17.0 dBm out of 20.0 dBm possible, it could probably be much closer in its estimated max speed.
Maybe you could test your line stats at your NID: »AT&T Southeast Forum FAQ »How to check modem stats, synch rates & speeds from test jack at the NID. to see if there is any improvement there. That would eliminate any problems your inside wiring might be causing. |
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David
No,there is another.
Premium,VIP
join:2002-05-30
Granite City, IL
clubs:
·DIRECTV
·magicjack.com
·AT&T Midwest
| I would try it at the NID/SNI/MPOE (gray test jack) at the interface, and re-run the above test. Least then the NID/SNI/MPOE would be where you would meet the AT&T network before hitting your own IW.
I would give that a shot and see what you get, if it's really that close then this test should differ a great deal (capacity going lower, noise margin increases, etc. etc.). |
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imsystem
join:2004-04-02
Red Bluff, CA | so if i test at nid and the capacity drops and noise margin raises i have a problem with in home wiring. but if it stays the same its a problem on the outside line. |
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d_l
Barsoom
Premium,MVM
join:2002-12-08
Reno, NV
| reply to imsystem
If the IW is picking up RFI, noise margin would go up as well as max sync capacity; however, the bin chart didn't give much indication of a noisy line.
Attenuation might drop very slightly. Yours is already so low that isn't the problem though.
Basically the NID test can rule out your IW as a problem.
Also you might check the modem's log for the hybrid number it is using: »SBC DSL FAQ »What do the hybrid numbers mean and what do they tell you about your line? I would expect it to be using either 1 or 2 which would be typical, but who knows, maybe your strange conditions might show up as a 3 or 4. |
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imsystem
join:2004-04-02
Red Bluff, CA
| 2007/01/09 21:45:50 GMT E |DSL |HYBRID 3
according to the link you sent me. I understand that means there is a bridge outside of my home and i should call an at&t tech. Is that correct. If so will that cost me any money to have fixed.i haven't yet hooked up to the nid. However the line i have plugged into modem now is wired directly to the nid. I ran the test on this line and i still only get 2800 dwn and 765 up for maxes. |
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d_l
Barsoom
Premium,MVM
join:2002-12-08
Reno, NV
| reply to imsystem
If a bridged tap exists beyond your NID and if AT&T removes it, they pay for the removal charge. That hybrid 3 info will give the techs here such as David more to work with to determine why your line has such a low max sync potential.
If you run the NID test, be sure to check that the hybrid 3 is still in use. Although it isn't common, a #3 hybrid condition could still be caused by inside wiring if the inside wire runs were long enough. I can't conceive of +300-foot long wiring runs within a private residence, but I suppose anything is possible. 
On the other hand, if the bridge tap is inside your house causing the #3 hybrid, the NID test should really show improved results because testing at the test jack would disconnect that bridged tap from the network.
If you have multiple inside phone wires all connecting at the NID, then your inside wiring is making short bridged taps too. Ideally DSL needs a continuous wire pair from the DSLAM to your modem without any branches or stubs off that one pair. Each time the wire branches, you have another bridged tap. |
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David
No,there is another.
Premium,VIP
join:2002-05-30
Granite City, IL
clubs:
·DIRECTV
·magicjack.com
·AT&T Midwest
| reply to imsystem
said by imsystem :so if i test at nid and the capacity drops and noise margin raises i have a problem with in home wiring. but if it stays the same its a problem on the outside line. That would be correct for the first part, 2nd part could be distance and other issues. That the field tech would be able to determine further.
--
If you have a topic in the direct forum please reply to it or a post of mine, I get a notification when you do this.
Koetting Ford, Granite City, illinois... YOU'RE FIRED!!
|
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imsystem
join:2004-04-02
Red Bluff, CA
1 edit | thanks for all the help and info guys. I posted in the direct forum with all this info asking about the bridge and getting it removed. |
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imsystem
join:2004-04-02
Red Bluff, CA
1 edit | said by d_l :If you have multiple inside phone wires all connecting at the NID, then your inside wiring is making short bridged taps too. Ideally DSL needs a continuous wire pair from the DSLAM to your modem without any branches or stubs off that one pair. Each time the wire branches, you have another bridged tap. I overlooked this part when i read your reply. I did notice when i opened the box to see were the test port was that there was 2 separate phone lines run to the line 1 side. One line went one way powering all the phones in the home. The second one went into the computer room wall jack powering one phone and modem. So that might be the bridge. If so how do i tie in both those lines without causing a bridge. |
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NormanS
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
·Pacific Bell - SBC
2 edits | 
DSL Splitter at the NID. |
If your NID box is more like mine, you get a DSL filter like mine. You move the wire pair running to the telephones from the NID to the splitter, attaching them to the "Voice" pair of terminals in the splitter. You move the wire pair running to the modem from the NID to the "DATA" pair of terminals in the splitter. You take about one foot of CAT 3 phone cable and use the Line 1 pair (blue/blue-white trace) to connect the pair in the NID to the "Network" pair in the splitter.
See the screen shot for details.
P.S. Here is a link to a source:
»www.hometech.com/techwire/dsl.html
Last two items on the page. One unit made by Suttle, the other made by Corning.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum |
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imsystem
join:2004-04-02
Red Bluff, CA
2 edits | I am not quit understanding what your saying. My box is bigger then those and has spots for 2 separate phone lines. Yet only line one is hooked up now not line 2. I don't have the spare money to buy new boxes to mount outside like that. There has got to be another way to remove the two lines coming from iw to box to make 1. Maybe tomorrow when i am out at box ill take pictures of the set up.
Another thing i noticed was there was only 2 wires each the red and green hooked up to the nid from my iw. Should all 4 be hooked up.
ADDED
i decided to check the other phone jacks filters. 1 had the phone hooked into the data side and 1 had not filter. So i changed the one and added filter to other and my results went up for max
Downstream Maxrate (Estimated): 3464
Upstream Maxrate (Estimated): 690
Bit tones with notches/missing bits:
bit(s) 38:43 163.875 - 189.75 KHz
bit(s) 139:255 599.4375 - 1104 KHz
and new stats
SN Margin (dB) 18.5 -
Line Attenuation (dB) 22.5 -
Loss of Signal 0 -
Loss of Frame 0 0
CRC Errors 1 2
db came up some thats good right. I still get a hybrid 3 in logs though Hope i can isolate that tomorrow when i hook directly to test port
can somone that knows explain
Bit tones with notches/missing bits:
i notice now there is only 2 of them |
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d_l
Barsoom
Premium,MVM
join:2002-12-08
Reno, NV
2 edits | reply to imsystem
If you have this:
----DSL
/
----NID
\
----phones
then you have an inside wire, bridged tap. Unless the two wire legs together are well over 50 feet long in total, then they aren't causing your hybrid 3 condition. I think it is possible that the modem could see both a bridged tap for a hybrid 2 AND one for a hybrid 3, but would only report the hybrid 3. This is why we urged you to test at the NID. A NID test simplifies the wiring of your connection.
If you have the above wiring arrangement, you may have to install a splitter (or a microfilter) at the NID to divide the DSL side from the POTS side. This will eliminate the inside wire, bridged tap condition.
Your latest stats would probably be barely good enough for the Pro speeds. The line needs a little excess capacity over the 3008 sync speed to compensate for the occasional line noise problems.
Edit: Don't worry about the occasional missing tone bin. We all have them and they are caused by stray EMI/RFI. DSL is designed to work around a few missing bins. |
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wayjac
Premium,MVM
join:2001-12-22
Indy
·AT&T Midwest
| reply to imsystem
Does your NID look like this one The line that connects all the phones in the home, needs to be isolated from the line that connects the computer room phone and modem.
The computer room phone will still need a microfilter connected.
At the NID you can use a microfilter to isolate the line that connects all the phones in the home.
--
God bless our troops |
|
NormanS
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
·Pacific Bell - SBC
1 edit | reply to imsystem
said by imsystem :I am not quit understanding what your saying. My box is bigger then those and has spots for 2 separate phone lines. Yet only line one is hooked up now not line 2. I don't have the spare money to buy new boxes to mount outside like that. Then you probably have the CAC-7600 type NID. It has "sled" modules, as shown by Wayjac. You can obtain a "sled" module which is a DSL splitter. Same site that I linked.
If you can't afford the price of a DSL splitter, there are people who have reported success by kluging a microfilter inside of the box. Again, Wayjac shows a screen shot of how to do it.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum |
|
imsystem
join:2004-04-02
Red Bluff, CA
3 edits | ok my box is not like that either. But from the new pictures i understand whats being talked about.
link to picture of my box
»www.hostmystuff.net/myimage/albu···0box.jpg
/1 phone
----
/ \DSL
----NID
\
----phones
I will be testing at the nid test jack in the next 30 minutes and will edit this post with the results.
Testing at nid info below
+000 days 00:05:13 E |DSL |HYBRID 2
Downstream Maxrate (Estimated): 7780
Upstream Maxrate (Estimated): 690
Bit tones with notches/missing bits:
bit(s) 43:58 185.4375 - 254.4375 KHz
bit(s) 114 491.625 - 495.9375 KHz
SN Margin (dB) 26.5 -
Line Attenuation (dB) 24.0 -
Loss of Signal 0 -
Loss of Frame 0 0
CRC Errors 1 2
now if i remove the phone on the dsl line and wire a filter at the nid should that bring my stats up like this or close to in in home. or will only a splitter do that. Also if i filter it at the box will that be good for all my in house phones or do i still need a filter at each location.
Lastly if i do this either way do i need the newer wires or can just the red green wires work. |
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