NormanS
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
 ·Pacific Bell - SBC
| reply to xsiddalx
Re: and 100% of this survey is stupid
said by xsiddalx  :I completely understand what you are saying, but you didn't answer my question. Why does the customer care about any vendors business plan? I have yet to have a discussion about shopping with anyone that has ever declared "well, that's their business plan, so I'll go with the their higher price, higher restrictions, etc..". You don't worry about the business plan. You worry about whether you think the price is fair for the service rendered. If it is, you pay it. If it isn't, you take your business to a competitor offering a lower price, or you do without.
The business plan determines whether they can make a profit, or not. If they can't sell the service at a price the customer will pay, and still make money, they won't offer the service.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum |
|
xsiddalx
join:2005-03-11
Chicago, IL
·AT&T Yahoo
| reply to Hall
I completely understand what you are saying, but you didn't answer my question. Why does the customer care about any vendors business plan? I have yet to have a discussion about shopping with anyone that has ever declared "well, that's their business plan, so I'll go with the their higher price, higher restrictions, etc..".
said by Hall :said by xsiddalx :Tell us why the customer cares about how the business model is developed? Part of their business plan includes "how much will we charge customers and still make a profit ?". If they designed their model based on each customer using 100% of their plan's ratings, 24/7/365, the network guys would have to build a much larger network. That costs more... The accounting people say "we need to make a min "X" % profit, per customer, per month". The sales/marketing people say "50% of our customers are willing to pay no more than "A" dollars per month. 40% will pay "B" dollars per month. 10% will pay "C" dollars per month." If they run the numbers and can't make the req'd profit, they walk away and not offer the service. |
|
Hall
Premium,MVM
join:2000-04-28
Dayton, OH
·EarthLink
·AT&T Midwest
 ·Earthlink Cable Mo..
| reply to sweintz
said by sweintz : If every customer used 100% of their service 24/7/365, we wouldn't be paying $20/month for DSL or $40/month for cable. Initially, no. And I would have no issue with that. I got DSL not long after it first became available in my area. $50/mo was the low-end price and I wouldn't do it... Mindspring ran a promo for $40/mo and I jumped. I paid $40-50 for years and understood that early adopters pay more. Now I pay $17.99 for 2x the speed I had then.
It's no different than the dial-up days when there was a 20-25% rule on number of incoming phone lines vs number of customers. No, it IS different, beacuse people didn't leave dial up connections up all the time. Broadband, on the otherhand, IS left up all the time by most people. You took my analogy to literally. I was referring to the concept of what some call "oversubscribing". Fact is, I used a local ISP for a number of years and I was online daily, numerous times a day. In 3-4 years time, I honestly could count on one hand the number of times I got a busy signal. They used the 25% rule and it obviously worked excellent for them.
--
This is my .sig. I like it bold. |
|
NormanS
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
·Pacific Bell - SBC
| reply to sweintz
said by sweintz :No, it IS different, beacuse people didn't leave dial up connections up all the time. Broadband, on the otherhand, IS left up all the time by most people. That doesn't mean that it is used all of that time that it is left up. I am rarely actually accessing anything on the Internet more than a couple of hours a day. Who has time to access the Internet 24/7/365? You have to eat, sleep, and procreate!
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum |
|
sweintz
Premium
join:2002-03-01
Hamden, CT
| reply to Hall
said by Hall : Consumer-grade networks are designed and more importantly, sold, based on every customer NOT being a bandwidth hog. Exactly the problem, IMO.
If every customer used 100% of their service 24/7/365, we wouldn't be paying $20/month for DSL or $40/month for cable.
Initially, no. And I would have no issue with that. I spend $150 a month for my broadband connection at home for "business class" service, which still sucks performance wise, because at the edge, it shares the network with the consumer customers.
It's no different than the dial-up days when there was a 20-25% rule on number of incoming phone lines vs number of customers.
No, it IS different, beacuse people didn't leave dial up connections up all the time. Broadband, on the otherhand, IS left up all the time by most people. |
|
sweintz
Premium
join:2002-03-01
Hamden, CT
| reply to Tikker_LoS
said by Tikker_LoS :said by inteller :They should just be happy not all their customers are "bandwidth hogs" ok, sparky! having an idea of the profile of your customers lets you build out your network accordingly BS holdover idea from telco style engineering.
Problem is, ISP's think they can oversubscribe an IP data network the way you can with a circuit switched telco network.
Wrongo. (at least IMO)
With IP data networks, given how cheap the darn hardware is (specifically high end ethernet swicthes that do layer 3 at wire speed) one can and IMO SHOULD assume 100 utilization for each and every user, and design accordingly.
Ya, you CAN oversubscribe, and MOST users (ie: people that think the web and the internet are the same thing) won't notice much of an issue.
But when my ISP starts telling me a 10% packet loss is "normal and acceptable" - then I gotta big problem with their design.
If the networks *I* designed at $dayjob had even 1/10th of 1 percent packet loss, I'd be called to the carpet pretty quickly.
Just my 2 cents. |
|
Hall
Premium,MVM
join:2000-04-28
Dayton, OH
·EarthLink
·AT&T Midwest
·Earthlink Cable Mo..
| reply to xsiddalx
said by xsiddalx :Tell us why the customer cares about how the business model is developed? Part of their business plan includes "how much will we charge customers and still make a profit ?". If they designed their model based on each customer using 100% of their plan's ratings, 24/7/365, the network guys would have to build a much larger network. That costs more... The accounting people say "we need to make a min "X" % profit, per customer, per month". The sales/marketing people say "50% of our customers are willing to pay no more than "A" dollars per month. 40% will pay "B" dollars per month. 10% will pay "C" dollars per month." If they run the numbers and can't make the req'd profit, they walk away and not offer the service.
--
This is my .sig. I like it bold. |
|
xsiddalx
join:2005-03-11
Chicago, IL
·AT&T Yahoo
| reply to Hall
Tell us why the customer cares about how the business model is developed?
Last time I checked, Frito Lay didn't tell me that I had to buy two bags of chips because they priced it at 99 cents per "Big Bag" if I buy 2, with the presumption that I'd buy 2
bags.
Bringing it back to DSL...last I heard from Ed Whitacre,
us DSL customers are only buying bandwidth to the terminal.
(too lazy too find the quote, but DSL subs can certainly
check their contracts with their telephone company ISP
affiliate).
In summary, why does anyone care about the business plan?
I was educated to believe competitive markets meet the need of customers, never heard of customers caring about the the business plans of the competitors. |
|
xsiddalx
join:2005-03-11
Chicago, IL
·AT&T Yahoo
| reply to Tikker_LoS
said by Tikker_LoS :said by inteller :They should just be happy not all their customers are "bandwidth hogs" ok, sparky! having an idea of the profile of your customers lets you build out your network accordingly And letting your customers continue developing their customer profiles to continue developing your network stinks, right?
It stink being in a business where customers can't be pegged to a static demand...makes sense that the industry keeps consolidating and migrating toward a TV model! |
|
xsiddalx
join:2005-03-11
Chicago, IL
·AT&T Yahoo
| reply to Tikker_LoS
Most of the stuff "people" seem interested in is what isn't already available (or we'd sorta be content with our cable tv).
Isn't it incumbent on the ISPs to figure out methods to get that traffic on net (partnering/caching etc)?
Then again, that won't play too well for the charging for content when the BOCs (VZ/T) get into content distribution over their IP networks.
Doesn't seem to be a market ISPs (non incumbent-owned) really have a place in long term.
Then again..it's always more than the cost of hardware...
it's sales, marketing, support and corporate operations...
Course the latter might be considered an add-on compliance type fee.
The game certainly changes when the ISP is our local Cable and Telco.  |
|
roamer1
sticking it out at you
join:2001-03-24
Atlanta, GA
clubs:
| reply to Tikker_LoS
said by Tikker_LoS :the bandwidth that ISP's generally care about is the stuff clogging the big transit pipes between providers ...hence why most ISPs try to peer (vs. using transit) when possible. Of course, most consumer ISPs have very lopsided traffic patterns (lots of traffic in, relatively little traffic out) that scare away a lot of potential peering partners, and some have only regional networks which don't get anywhere near the major peering points, which leaves a lot of them stuck using transit for most sites.
-SC
--
said to me: "it seems like all you ever buy is Abercrombie and cell phones"  |
|
backness
join:2005-07-08
K2P OW2 | reply to Tikker_LoS
don't forget only a foolish isp would think that the number of "hogs" is not going to increase.
These stats are meaningless |
|
Tikker_LoS
join:2004-04-29
Regina, SK
·SaskTel Saskatchewan
| reply to TechSponge
said by TechSponge : If I am a TV Sub where TV is delivered via IP. Am I going to be considered a Bandwidth Hog if I leave 2 or 3 TV's on 20 hrs a day, but only use Internet data for Email and Web purchases? nope
the bandwidth that ISP's generally care about is the stuff clogging the big transit pipes between providers
the stuff that just flows on their own self contained network is just the cost of hardware (not hardware, plus transfer fees, plus redundant external links, etc etc)
there's generally lots of bandwidth on an ISP's network, it's just the pipes that link the ISP's together that has the bottleneck AND the highest cost to maintain |
|
TechSponge
join:2001-05-14
Hillside, NJ
| reply to Hall
Thanks for that Tidbit...I was waiting for you to come along.
You are correct...we wouldn't be paying $20/month for DSL or $40/month for cable or what I pay for their "business versions" of $120/mo and $140/mo. It would be more like $8/mo, $15/mo, $65/mo, and $73/mo Respectively. Think about it.
Also begs the question. If I am a TV Sub where TV is delivered via IP. Am I going to be considered a Bandwidth Hog if I leave 2 or 3 TV's on 20 hrs a day, but only use Internet data for Email and Web purchases? |
|
Hall
Premium,MVM
join:2000-04-28
Dayton, OH
·EarthLink
·AT&T Midwest
·Earthlink Cable Mo..
| reply to inteller
said by inteller :They should just be happy not all their customers are "bandwidth hogs" Consumer-grade networks are designed and more importantly, sold, based on every customer NOT being a bandwidth hog. If every customer used 100% of their service 24/7/365, we wouldn't be paying $20/month for DSL or $40/month for cable. It's no different than the dial-up days when there was a 20-25% rule on number of incoming phone lines vs number of customers.
--
This is my .sig. I like it bold. |
|
arck1969
join:2006-11-27
Apple Valley, CA | reply to inteller
Imagine using what you pay for, and being punished for it. Now that is business. |
|
Tikker_LoS
join:2004-04-29
Regina, SK
·SaskTel Saskatchewan
| reply to inteller
said by inteller :They should just be happy not all their customers are "bandwidth hogs" ok, sparky!
having an idea of the profile of your customers lets you build out your network accordingly |
|
inteller
Sociopaths always win.
join:2003-12-08
Tulsa, OK | reply to TKJunkMail
They should just be happy not all their customers are "bandwidth hogs"
--
"WHEN THE LAUGH TRACK STARTS THEN THE FUN STARTS!" |
|
