Re: and 100% of this survey is stupid in http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r17731349 en Sun, 29 Nov 2009 13:04:01 EDT Sun, 29 Nov 2009 13:04:01 EDT Re: and 100% of this survey is stupid http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17767545 NormanS :
said by xsiddalx See Profile :

I completely understand what you are saying, but you didn't answer my question. Why does the customer care about any vendors business plan? I have yet to have a discussion about shopping with anyone that has ever declared "well, that's their business plan, so I'll go with the their higher price, higher restrictions, etc..".
You don't worry about the business plan. You worry about whether you think the price is fair for the service rendered. If it is, you pay it. If it isn't, you take your business to a competitor offering a lower price, or you do without.

The business plan determines whether they can make a profit, or not. If they can't sell the service at a price the customer will pay, and still make money, they won't offer the service.
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Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17767545 Sun, 04 Feb 2007 01:22:16 EDT Re: and 100% of this survey is stupid http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17759923 xsiddalx : I completely understand what you are saying, but you didn't answer my question. Why does the customer care about any vendors business plan? I have yet to have a discussion about shopping with anyone that has ever declared "well, that's their business plan, so I'll go with the their higher price, higher restrictions, etc..".

said by Hall See Profile :

said by xsiddalx See Profile :

Tell us why the customer cares about how the business model is developed?
Part of their business plan includes "how much will we charge customers and still make a profit ?". If they designed their model based on each customer using 100% of their plan's ratings, 24/7/365, the network guys would have to build a much larger network. That costs more... The accounting people say "we need to make a min "X" % profit, per customer, per month". The sales/marketing people say "50% of our customers are willing to pay no more than "A" dollars per month. 40% will pay "B" dollars per month. 10% will pay "C" dollars per month." If they run the numbers and can't make the req'd profit, they walk away and not offer the service.
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17759923 Fri, 02 Feb 2007 19:24:33 EDT Re: and 100% of this survey is stupid http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17744165 Hall :
said by sweintz See Profile :

If every customer used 100% of their service 24/7/365, we wouldn't be paying $20/month for DSL or $40/month for cable.
Initially, no. And I would have no issue with that.
I got DSL not long after it first became available in my area. $50/mo was the low-end price and I wouldn't do it... Mindspring ran a promo for $40/mo and I jumped. I paid $40-50 for years and understood that early adopters pay more. Now I pay $17.99 for 2x the speed I had then.
It's no different than the dial-up days when there was a 20-25% rule on number of incoming phone lines vs number of customers.
No, it IS different, beacuse people didn't leave dial up connections up all the time. Broadband, on the otherhand, IS left up all the time by most people. You took my analogy to literally. I was referring to the concept of what some call "oversubscribing". Fact is, I used a local ISP for a number of years and I was online daily, numerous times a day. In 3-4 years time, I honestly could count on one hand the number of times I got a busy signal. They used the 25% rule and it obviously worked excellent for them.
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This is my .sig. I like it bold.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17744165 Wed, 31 Jan 2007 13:03:13 EDT Re: and 100% of this survey is stupid http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17744152 NormanS :
said by sweintz See Profile :

No, it IS different, beacuse people didn't leave dial up connections up all the time. Broadband, on the otherhand, IS left up all the time by most people.
That doesn't mean that it is used all of that time that it is left up. I am rarely actually accessing anything on the Internet more than a couple of hours a day. Who has time to access the Internet 24/7/365? You have to eat, sleep, and procreate!
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Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17744152 Wed, 31 Jan 2007 13:00:15 EDT Re: and 100% of this survey is stupid http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17744085 sweintz :
said by Hall See Profile :

Consumer-grade networks are designed and more importantly, sold, based on every customer NOT being a bandwidth hog.
Exactly the problem, IMO.
If every customer used 100% of their service 24/7/365, we wouldn't be paying $20/month for DSL or $40/month for cable.
Initially, no. And I would have no issue with that. I spend $150 a month for my broadband connection at home for "business class" service, which still sucks performance wise, because at the edge, it shares the network with the consumer customers.
It's no different than the dial-up days when there was a 20-25% rule on number of incoming phone lines vs number of customers.
No, it IS different, beacuse people didn't leave dial up connections up all the time. Broadband, on the otherhand, IS left up all the time by most people. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17744085 Wed, 31 Jan 2007 12:47:33 EDT Re: and 100% of this survey is stupid http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17744036 sweintz :
said by Tikker_LoS See Profile :

said by inteller See Profile :

They should just be happy not all their customers are "bandwidth hogs"
ok, sparky!

having an idea of the profile of your customers lets you build out your network accordingly
BS holdover idea from telco style engineering.
Problem is, ISP's think they can oversubscribe an IP data network the way you can with a circuit switched telco network.

Wrongo. (at least IMO)

With IP data networks, given how cheap the darn hardware is (specifically high end ethernet swicthes that do layer 3 at wire speed) one can and IMO SHOULD assume 100 utilization for each and every user, and design accordingly.

Ya, you CAN oversubscribe, and MOST users (ie: people that think the web and the internet are the same thing) won't notice much of an issue.

But when my ISP starts telling me a 10% packet loss is "normal and acceptable" - then I gotta big problem with their design.

If the networks *I* designed at $dayjob had even 1/10th of 1 percent packet loss, I'd be called to the carpet pretty quickly.

Just my 2 cents.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17744036 Wed, 31 Jan 2007 12:41:41 EDT Re: and 100% of this survey is stupid http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17738786 cdru : The people who design and manage ISP networks already know that 5% of their customers generate X amount of traffic. They don't need a company who markets traffic shaping equipment to tell them that.
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Go Colts]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17738786 Tue, 30 Jan 2007 16:22:07 EDT Re: and 100% of this survey is stupid http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17736447 Yauch : Umm...Yeah, you do realize that speed and volume are different forms of measurement right?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17736447 Tue, 30 Jan 2007 09:35:14 EDT Re: and 100% of this survey is stupid http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17736245 Hall :
said by xsiddalx See Profile :

Tell us why the customer cares about how the business model is developed?
Part of their business plan includes "how much will we charge customers and still make a profit ?". If they designed their model based on each customer using 100% of their plan's ratings, 24/7/365, the network guys would have to build a much larger network. That costs more... The accounting people say "we need to make a min "X" % profit, per customer, per month". The sales/marketing people say "50% of our customers are willing to pay no more than "A" dollars per month. 40% will pay "B" dollars per month. 10% will pay "C" dollars per month." If they run the numbers and can't make the req'd profit, they walk away and not offer the service.
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This is my .sig. I like it bold.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17736245 Tue, 30 Jan 2007 08:48:30 EDT Re: and 100% of this survey is stupid http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17735642 NormanS :
said by inteller See Profile :

Who cares? I find it offending that people who actually USE what they pay for are considered "hogs"
Actually, with most residential ISPs, you aren't paying for "bandwidth", you are paying for speed. ISPs plan network capacity on some usage averaging algorithm, and high bandwidth users knock those algorithms into the proverbial "Cocked Hat".

When you hit your provider's maximum bandwidth capacity, you kill the Internet for your neighbors. That's when your provider steps in with those Ellacoya boxes, and the like.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17735642 Tue, 30 Jan 2007 02:29:16 EDT Re: and 100% of this survey is stupid http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17735230 xsiddalx : Tell us why the customer cares about how the business model is developed?

Last time I checked, Frito Lay didn't tell me that I had to buy two bags of chips because they priced it at 99 cents per "Big Bag" if I buy 2, with the presumption that I'd buy 2
bags.

Bringing it back to DSL...last I heard from Ed Whitacre,
us DSL customers are only buying bandwidth to the terminal.
(too lazy too find the quote, but DSL subs can certainly
check their contracts with their telephone company ISP
affiliate).

In summary, why does anyone care about the business plan?

I was educated to believe competitive markets meet the need of customers, never heard of customers caring about the the business plans of the competitors.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17735230 Tue, 30 Jan 2007 00:02:37 EDT Re: and 100% of this survey is stupid http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17735170 xsiddalx :
said by Tikker_LoS See Profile :

said by inteller See Profile :

They should just be happy not all their customers are "bandwidth hogs"
ok, sparky!

having an idea of the profile of your customers lets you build out your network accordingly
And letting your customers continue developing their customer profiles to continue developing your network stinks, right?

It stink being in a business where customers can't be pegged to a static demand...makes sense that the industry keeps consolidating and migrating toward a TV model!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17735170 Mon, 29 Jan 2007 23:52:07 EDT Re: and 100% of this survey is stupid http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17735046 xsiddalx : Most of the stuff "people" seem interested in is what isn't already available (or we'd sorta be content with our cable tv).

Isn't it incumbent on the ISPs to figure out methods to get that traffic on net (partnering/caching etc)?

Then again, that won't play too well for the charging for content when the BOCs (VZ/T) get into content distribution over their IP networks.

Doesn't seem to be a market ISPs (non incumbent-owned) really have a place in long term.

Then again..it's always more than the cost of hardware...
it's sales, marketing, support and corporate operations...

Course the latter might be considered an add-on compliance type fee.

The game certainly changes when the ISP is our local Cable and Telco. :(]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17735046 Mon, 29 Jan 2007 23:26:51 EDT Re: and 100% of this survey is stupid http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17734844 roamer1 :
said by Tikker_LoS See Profile :

the bandwidth that ISP's generally care about is the stuff clogging the big transit pipes between providers
...hence why most ISPs try to peer (vs. using transit) when possible. Of course, most consumer ISPs have very lopsided traffic patterns (lots of traffic in, relatively little traffic out) that scare away a lot of potential peering partners, and some have only regional networks which don't get anywhere near the major peering points, which leaves a lot of them stuck using transit for most sites.

-SC
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said to me: "it seems like all you ever buy is Abercrombie and cell phones" :p]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17734844 Mon, 29 Jan 2007 22:55:10 EDT Re: and 100% of this survey is stupid http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17734678 backness : don't forget only a foolish isp would think that the number of "hogs" is not going to increase.

These stats are meaningless]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17734678 Mon, 29 Jan 2007 22:27:50 EDT Re: and 100% of this survey is stupid http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17732454 halfband :
said by haplo2112 See Profile :

I fall under the HOG category, and resent the implication. I am only using what I am paying for, I have a 5/512 connection and I use my 56/512 connection.
Actually better for you is that the light users are subsidising your connection. You are using what you pay for + some of what they pay for. Excellent deal for you :), much better than the cost of a high bandwidth dedicated line.
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Registered Bandwidth Offender #40812]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17732454 Mon, 29 Jan 2007 16:50:40 EDT Re: and 100% of this survey is stupid http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17732365 Tikker_LoS :
said by TechSponge See Profile :

If I am a TV Sub where TV is delivered via IP. Am I going to be considered a Bandwidth Hog if I leave 2 or 3 TV's on 20 hrs a day, but only use Internet data for Email and Web purchases?
nope
the bandwidth that ISP's generally care about is the stuff clogging the big transit pipes between providers

the stuff that just flows on their own self contained network is just the cost of hardware (not hardware, plus transfer fees, plus redundant external links, etc etc)

there's generally lots of bandwidth on an ISP's network, it's just the pipes that link the ISP's together that has the bottleneck AND the highest cost to maintain]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17732365 Mon, 29 Jan 2007 16:38:20 EDT Re: and 100% of this survey is stupid http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17732179 haplo2112 : Agreed. I fall under the HOG category, and resent the implication. I am only using what I am paying for, I have a 5/512 connection and I use my 56/512 connection.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17732179 Mon, 29 Jan 2007 16:08:10 EDT Re: and 100% of this survey is stupid http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17732059 TechSponge : Thanks for that Tidbit...I was waiting for you to come along.

You are correct...we wouldn't be paying $20/month for DSL or $40/month for cable or what I pay for their "business versions" of $120/mo and $140/mo. It would be more like $8/mo, $15/mo, $65/mo, and $73/mo Respectively. Think about it.

Also begs the question. If I am a TV Sub where TV is delivered via IP. Am I going to be considered a Bandwidth Hog if I leave 2 or 3 TV's on 20 hrs a day, but only use Internet data for Email and Web purchases? ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17732059 Mon, 29 Jan 2007 15:52:44 EDT Re: and 100% of this survey is stupid http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17731456 Hall :
said by inteller See Profile :

They should just be happy not all their customers are "bandwidth hogs"
Consumer-grade networks are designed and more importantly, sold, based on every customer NOT being a bandwidth hog. If every customer used 100% of their service 24/7/365, we wouldn't be paying $20/month for DSL or $40/month for cable. It's no different than the dial-up days when there was a 20-25% rule on number of incoming phone lines vs number of customers.
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This is my .sig. I like it bold.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17731456 Mon, 29 Jan 2007 14:19:22 EDT Re: and 100% of this survey is stupid http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17731391 arck1969 : Imagine using what you pay for, and being punished for it. Now that is business.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17731391 Mon, 29 Jan 2007 14:09:33 EDT Re: and 100% of this survey is stupid http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17731372 Tikker_LoS :
said by inteller See Profile :

They should just be happy not all their customers are "bandwidth hogs"
ok, sparky!

having an idea of the profile of your customers lets you build out your network accordingly]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17731372 Mon, 29 Jan 2007 14:05:45 EDT Re: and 100% of this survey is stupid http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17731368 P Ness :
said by inteller See Profile :

Who cares? I find it offending that people who actually USE what they pay for are considered "hogs"
...and that they will terminate you..

...but those non-hogs dont get refunds and credits for being very very proftable customers
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"WHEN THE LAUGH TRACK STARTS THEN THE FUN STARTS!"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17731349 Mon, 29 Jan 2007 14:01:31 EDT Re: and 100% of this survey is stupid http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17731331 TKJunkMail :
said by inteller See Profile :

Who cares? I find it offending that people who actually USE what they pay for are considered "hogs"
How about the people who design and manage ISP networks. They care a great deal about this info because it has a direct effect on their design changes and on infrastructure expenditures.
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"WHEN THE LAUGH TRACK STARTS THEN THE FUN STARTS!"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17731299 Mon, 29 Jan 2007 13:52:06 EDT