dynodb
Premium,VIP
join:2004-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
| reply to Sean
Re: Absolutely!!!
said by Sean  :said by dynodb :You're not paying for 6M all the time, every time- read the TOS and promotional materials where they say "up to". You may feel that it should be a solid 6M, but that's not what you were offered. If you had the capacity to understand what was going on, you would realize that the debate is OVER the technicality. No one cares what the TOS says. What matters is what it is that you APPEAR to be buying. The whole point in this is, there shouldn't be any misrepresentation. And what exactly are they misrepresenting when they make it pretty clear that maximum speeds aren't guaranteed? Providers have a responsibility to market their product fairly, but customers also have a duty to have some clue what they're buying.
When they advertise speeds "up to x meg", I fail to see where the "technicality" lies. |
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DownTheShore
Maddie Knows Poopie
Premium
join:2003-12-02
Beautiful NJ
clubs:
| said by dynodb :said by Sean :said by dynodb :You're not paying for 6M all the time, every time- read the TOS and promotional materials where they say "up to". You may feel that it should be a solid 6M, but that's not what you were offered. If you had the capacity to understand what was going on, you would realize that the debate is OVER the technicality. No one cares what the TOS says. What matters is what it is that you APPEAR to be buying. The whole point in this is, there shouldn't be any misrepresentation. And what exactly are they misrepresenting when they make it pretty clear that maximum speeds aren't guaranteed? Providers have a responsibility to market their product fairly, but customers also have a duty to have some clue what they're buying. When they advertise speeds "up to x meg", I fail to see where the "technicality" lies. No need to argue among ourselves, now. 
The point of the discussion is that the phrase "up to x meg" shouldn't be part of the TOS at all. The Australians seem to want the speed accurately stated in the TOS, perhaps as a minimum speed guarantee so that people wouldn't be disappointed when their speeds never reach the currently advertised higher amounts. That way when their speeds go higher, they're all happy campers. 
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Life is simply one damned thing after another. |
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raw
War Eagle
Premium
join:2001-01-17
Madison, AL
clubs:
1 edit | reply to dynodb
If I say that my annual salary is "up to $50 million", that doesn't make me a millionaire, although what I'm saying is technically true.
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[BBR]raw
America's Army
BBR Enemy Territory clan founder |
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dynodb
Premium,VIP
join:2004-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
| reply to DownTheShore
Say you have two competing providers with identical networks and service plans. One markets their plan as "up to 6M", and the other offers "3M guaranteed". Which one do you think people are more likely to sign up for?
I agree that the ambiguity can be frustrating, but given that building a shared-resource network that supports 3M 100% of the time is much more expensive to build than one that offers 6M 90% of the time, there isn't an easy solution. |
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La Luna
Surviving Ashraful
Premium
join:2001-07-12
Warwick, NY
clubs:
 ·Optimum Online
 ·Vonage
| reply to dynodb
said by dynodb :And what exactly are they misrepresenting when they make it pretty clear that maximum speeds aren't guaranteed? Providers have a responsibility to market their product fairly, but customers also have a duty to have some clue what they're buying. When they advertise speeds "up to x meg", I fail to see where the "technicality" lies. You are correct, they aren't "misrepresenting" a damn thing.
"Most consumers won't understand what 'up to' means and then they are significantly disappointed when they don't achieve those speeds..."
Without even reading one more post in this thread, you can already see that statement is exactly right.
People are either truly stupid by not understanding what "up to" means, or they are using *selective comprehension*.
*Yawn*, who cares...let them change the wording to "7MB, guaranteed" instead of "up to 10MB" and people will think they've pulled one over on the ISP's when they get 8 or 9MB.
Problem solved.
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~~Well, I think you're crazy, I think you're crazy, I think you're crazy, just like me...~~
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smcallah
join:2004-08-05
Home
| reply to DownTheShore
said by DownTheShore : perhaps as a minimum speed guarantee so that people wouldn't be disappointed when their speeds never reach the currently advertised higher amounts. Except that minimum speed could be 0bps. No one can guarantee what speeds are across the Internet. The best they can ever guarantee are speeds to a speedtest box in their main data center, or maybe as far down as the local CO/Hub.
Customers only care how fast they can download something. That's why "Up to Xmbps" should be acceptable. If people can't be made to understand what "up to" means, then that's not really the fault of people selling the service.
Heck, they could even do a special acceptance test for the customer, hook up a speedtest box at the CO end, go to the customer's house, and show them that they are getting all the way up to Xmbps. And tell them, "this is your max speed. Sign this that we have tested out that your speeds work UP TO Xmbps."
But no one can guarantee a minimum or maximum speed to any site on the Internet, and that sounds like what they want to happen. No one can say from one minute to the next how fast your download is going to be from one particular site out there, not to mention the millions of possible sites out there. |
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Done_Posting
Shoot to kill
Premium
join:2003-08-22
Toledo, OH
·buckeye cable
| reply to La Luna
said by La Luna :Without even reading one more post in this thread, you can already see that statement is exactly right. People are either truly stupid by not understanding what "up to" means, or they are using *selective comprehension*. Nail on the head. Excellently worded!
- Tate
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Disclaimer for the mentally impaired: My posts reflect my personal opinions and not the views of my employer. I may work for a cable ISP, but I'm still an okay guy. |
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Surfinusa
Premium
join:2001-02-08
1 edit | Its all a trick to get you to believe what you think you are getting verse what they know you can really get.
They have a tool that tells what the max bandwidth is available for your line its very reliable and unlike cable it is somewhat solid. When they say you can only get 1.3mb then that's what you can expect.
To advertise you might get up to 2mb that like saying you may be a winning customer.
So far Cable (Roadrunner) is the only one that I have found to be as close as to advertised speeds. Best effort is a lottery.
If I told you I would cut your lawn and I said I would do my best effort to do so, and at the same time you have a big patch of grass I cannot seem to cut with my mower how does that help you. You would obviously look for someone else who could do the work not a best effort job.
That's just not very professional terminology.
Just look at other posts here, I'm not the only one that thinks this is ridiculous. |
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Done_Posting
Shoot to kill
Premium
join:2003-08-22
Toledo, OH
·buckeye cable
| said by Surfinusa :So far Cable (Roadrunner) is the only one that I have found to be as close as to advertised speeds. Best effort is a lottery. I guess I've just been extremely lucky with my broadband connections so far, because I have yet to subscribe to a service where I did not receive close to the max speed I have purchased. Obviously everyone's mileage varies.
- Tate
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Disclaimer for the mentally impaired: My posts reflect my personal opinions and not the views of my employer. I may work for a cable ISP, but I'm still an okay guy. |
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DownTheShore
Maddie Knows Poopie
Premium
join:2003-12-02
Beautiful NJ
clubs:
| reply to smcallah
But it would be nice if we were at least given a realistic number. My OOL speeds are supposed to be "up to" 15/2 Mbps, but on good days I usually only run 9/1 Mbps; most days my download speed is lower. To me, that 15/2 number is false advertising. I'd've liked to have seen my TOS at least include a realistic average speed for my area.
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Life is simply one damned thing after another. |
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smcallah
join:2004-08-05
Home
| And the speed for your area could change, at any time. Heck, the speed for just YOUR HOUSE, can change, depending on what could be wrong.
If they can prove that their speed actually works "up to" what they say, I see no reason that they can't advertise it as such.
The one thing that all providers though need to remove from their ads or TOS is "unlimited service."
Everyone gets confused on that one. |
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DownTheShore
Maddie Knows Poopie
Premium
join:2003-12-02
Beautiful NJ
clubs:
| said by smcallah :And the speed for your area could change, at any time. Heck, the speed for just YOUR HOUSE, can change, depending on what could be wrong. If they can prove that their speed actually works "up to" what they say, I see no reason that they can't advertise it as such. The one thing that all providers though need to remove from their ads or TOS is "unlimited service." Everyone gets confused on that one. I understand that the speeds are influenced by other events, particularly node overloads etc. But in my case, as far as I've been able to determine, there's nothing wrong at my end, so I'm talking about people who are in similar circumstances.
If, realistically, the customer is never going to get those advertised speeds, advertising it as such is akin to those "speedy weight loss" pills advertised on TV. At least those are required to clearly include a disclaimer that those people who drop a lot of weight are atypical.
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Life is simply one damned thing after another. |
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chuckkk
join:2001-11-10
Warner Robins, GA
·Cox HSI
| reply to dynodb
The problem with "up to" is that "down to" and average is not mentioned.
To be fair, I believe that the "up to" rate should not be expected to be obtainable all the time. Not obtainable at all seems to be the norm.
My humble opinion--
In order to advertise a speed, the speed should be obtainable, and be so most of the time.
In my area--
The download speeds (or slightly better) are obtainable,but not as often as you might like.
Upload speeds seldom are near the 512k cap. 460-480k is the usual max. |
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