Re: You smell that? in http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r17744657 en Wed, 02 Dec 2009 22:33:06 EDT Wed, 02 Dec 2009 22:33:06 EDT Re: You smell that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17751460 rolande : Juniper wins many of the carrier deals these days because they can be competitive on price. But you also have Marconi/FORE Systems, Force 10 networks, Nortel, Alcatel, Lucent, Riverstone, Tellabs, Laurel Networks, and Redback. There are a lot of price competitive carrier class routing solutions out there today. Cisco has by no means cornered this market at all.

In any case, though, the cost of hardware must be capitalized by the telcos and it is still a big hit on their bottom line depending on how many years they depreciate the gear. If they don't charge the subscriber base enough, there is not enough left over in the end for the future investments required to scale the network to meet the growing demands. Business models that do not price higher than the base "supplier" costs in a commodity market may win all the customers up front but will have nothing to show for it in the end.

Providers are either going to have to start taking a more conservative price approach for the tiered "unlimited" bandwidth model or they will have to stop the all you can eat price plans altogether. Something will have to give. In general, consumers are extremely fickle and will go for the best price in a commodity market like broadband. As each provider's average network performance gets worse over time, customers will jump to the best price/performance combo. Unfortunately, the consumer will still pay for this situation in one way or another. The prices will eventually move back upwards when consumers realize "they get what they pay for". ;)
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Ignorance is temporary...stupidity lasts forever!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17751460 Thu, 01 Feb 2007 14:18:05 EDT Re: You smell that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17750468 Kearnstd :
said by rolande See Profile :

It is simple economics and has nothing to do with fiber capacity. For X amount of bandwidth you still need X amount of silicon hardware to route and push the bits out interfaces. That hardware requires large amounts of capital investment.

The problem has more to do with the state of broadband price warfare. Carriers keep lowering their broadband prices while the cost/Mbps of data is not lowering at the same rate. The margins become so thin and non-existent that the providers cry poor. You'd think that the motto they are all living by is "He who dies with the most subscribers wins".
and this is partly caused by lack of competition in the carrier level hardware market. Cisco can charge what they want because how many other contenders are there? something tells me that big fat fiber router isnt really worth the 500 grand they charge for it.
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[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17750468 Thu, 01 Feb 2007 11:44:13 EDT Re: You smell that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17746585 Nightwchtr : LMAO isnt that the truth, they still have dark fiber out there that goes on for miles.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17746585 Wed, 31 Jan 2007 19:25:56 EDT Re: You smell that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17745856 TKJunkMail :
said by inurenegade See Profile :

it smells like BS to me!
I don't think the Deloitte & Touche predictions are wrong. But Phil Kerpen of Americans For Prosperity is probably just using the data to advocate for his anti net neutrality position. But the main point is that people only get what they pay for and if more and more users start using more and more video, they will either pay more or get slower service. And we all know they won't pay more.
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My Web Page]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17745856 Wed, 31 Jan 2007 17:32:24 EDT Re: You smell that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17744989 anon : Total B.S. _Investing_ in infrastructure with higher bandwidth has about as much to do with priority queueing (QoS) or network neutrality as Mike Tyson does with common sense.....

Quality of service has nothing, zilch, zero, nada to do with expanding and/or upgrading network infrastructure. Network neutrality is a First Amendment right fight, albeit a slightly misguided fight (because I think if someone wanted to abridge those freedoms, could've done so by now), but unrelated as far as investing in capacity goes.

The cable+phone co's used taxpayers money to build out these networks - they are now and have been charging for usage, constantly raising their fees - you'd think the math would add up at this point in time for them to invest any profit they have into upgrading infrastructure (rather than paying out executive bonuses).

Instead, they choose to blame some misguided network neutrality folks and their inability to charge for QoS on their current infrastructure. Well, I _am_ for network neutrality as well as Quality of Service - the two issues can most definitely coexist and will coexist together, in case anyone wondered.

And it is a hard fact that we are running out of bandwidth, slowly but surely.... I give it at max 2 years before we're bandwidth asthmatic.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17744989 Wed, 31 Jan 2007 16:23:42 EDT Re: You smell that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17745151 RayW :
said by KrK See Profile :

If at&t pulls this crap, maybe some politicians will grow some balls and start proceedings to break up at&t again
Not this congress, they for some reason are for big business (must have something to do with fewer points of contact to have to hit up for bribes).
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I am not lost, I find myself every time.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17745151 Wed, 31 Jan 2007 15:42:19 EDT Re: You smell that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17745122 KrK : Should of seen it coming. The "new" (Same-old) at&t has a LONG history of demanding special privileges and exemptions before building out network capacity. For example in Oklahoma at&t (then SBC) refused to build out DSL networks and put DSLAMS in until the state removed them from jurisdiction of Oklahoma's Corporation Commission--- effectively granting them a state sanctioned telephone monopoly

Now, this is just more of the same extended nationwide. "We cannot add capacity until we're granted legal exemptions from Federal requirements like Net Neutrality or Fair access.... Until we have it our way we're going to sit on our hands and blame the chaos on our opposition."

If at&t pulls this crap, maybe some politicians will grow some balls and start proceedings to break up at&t again
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"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17745122 Wed, 31 Jan 2007 15:37:55 EDT Re: You smell that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17744860 rolande : It is simple economics and has nothing to do with fiber capacity. For X amount of bandwidth you still need X amount of silicon hardware to route and push the bits out interfaces. That hardware requires large amounts of capital investment.

The problem has more to do with the state of broadband price warfare. Carriers keep lowering their broadband prices while the cost/Mbps of data is not lowering at the same rate. The margins become so thin and non-existent that the providers cry poor. You'd think that the motto they are all living by is "He who dies with the most subscribers wins".
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Ignorance is temporary...stupidity lasts forever!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17744860 Wed, 31 Jan 2007 14:57:34 EDT Re: You smell that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17744657 ronpin : uh...DWDM allows one to simply pop-off another lambda for a another virtual fiber. One fiber can thus be duplicated 96 times (x OC48). Most Tier 1 carriers have many fibers as well. Tier 2 providers are not involved in the Net Neutrality debate -- but they may well develop capacity issues -- but that's another unrelated problem. We do see AT&T and Quest having "mysterious" latency issues at peering points for Tier-2 providers -- like Charter and RoadRunner etc. No reason to trust AT&T at all. They may have a vested interest in screwing-up latency for peers (it makes DSL look better -- and they could even start to charge Cable providers a "priority" routing fee -- anti-net-neutrality »Here we go again-ATT Routers causing HIGH MI Pings)
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America has been hijacked by selfish nationalist corporate pigs. The whole world hates us now. Have a nice day.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17744657 Wed, 31 Jan 2007 14:21:22 EDT You smell that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17744167 inurenegade : it smells like BS to me!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17744167 Wed, 31 Jan 2007 13:03:31 EDT