Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here? in Charter HSI/CATV

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Sat, 17 Feb 2007 19:02:49 EDT

rratss : For those of you who need some help interpreting those traceroutes above:

If you look closely you can infer that Charter's provider, Wiltel (WCG), doesn't have a route from Los Angeles to Dallas, so instead, in hops 4-7, it goes to their peering point in Santa Clara/San Jose where they have a link to Level3, a Tier 1 (backbone) provider. About 10ms is added to the ping because of that.

On the other hand, DSLExtreme peers with Level3, which does have a link directly from LA to Dallas, so the ping times are about 10ms lower.

If Charter peered in Los Angeles with Level3 or another Tier 1 backbone provider, the ping would likely be similar to DSLExtreme.

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Thu, 15 Feb 2007 18:58:45 EDT

houkouonchi : [root@closet ~]# traceroute -i eth0 74.52.230.180 -I
traceroute to 74.52.230.180 (74.52.230.180), 30 hops max, 38 byte packets
1 10.237.128.1 (10.237.128.1) 8.566 ms 7.917 ms 7.880 ms
2 71-9-15-21.static.rvsd.ca.charter.com (71.9.15.21) 8.580 ms 7.025 ms 7.990 ms
3 71-9-15-198.static.rvsd.ca.charter.com (71.9.15.198) 10.075 ms 9.818 ms 10.080 ms
4 lsanca1wcx1-gige5-0.wcg.net (64.200.200.217) 15.694 ms 12.926 ms 14.266 ms
5 anhmca1wcx3-pos15-0.wcg.net (64.200.210.249) 14.348 ms 13.816 ms 13.749 ms
6 sntcca1wcx1-pos13-0-oc192.wcg.net (64.200.240.110) 25.042 ms 24.082 ms 23.980 ms
7 64.200.249.142 (64.200.249.142) 26.508 ms 26.407 ms 26.007 ms
8 te-3-3.car4.SanJose1.Level3.net (4.68.110.29) 24.029 ms 24.727 ms 32.873 ms
9 ae-32-56.ebr2.SanJose1.Level3.net (4.68.123.190) 39.595 ms 26.849 ms 31.355 ms
10 ae-1-100.ebr1.SanJose1.Level3.net (4.69.132.1) 31.036 ms 27.055 ms 31.455 ms
11 ae-2.ebr1.LosAngeles1.Level3.net (4.69.132.10) 34.338 ms 39.300 ms 36.046 ms
12 ae-1-100.ebr2.LosAngeles1.Level3.net (4.69.132.6) 32.000 ms 35.768 ms 35.841 ms
13 ae-3.ebr2.Dallas1.Level3.net (4.69.132.78) 62.392 ms 57.956 ms 57.555 ms
14 ae-24-54.car4.Dallas1.Level3.net (4.68.122.112) 56.349 ms 57.276 ms 61.740 ms
15 THE-PLANET.car4.Dallas1.Level3.net (4.71.122.2) 52.553 ms 58.580 ms 49.928 ms
16 te9-2.dsr02.dllstx3.theplanet.com (70.87.253.30) 49.418 ms te7-2.dsr02.dllstx3.theplanet.com (70.87.253.26) 49.472 ms te7-2.dsr01.dllstx3.theplanet.com (70.87.253.10) 52.695 ms
17 vl22.dsr02.dllstx2.theplanet.com (70.85.127.76) 50.461 ms 49.733 ms 50.141 ms
18 vl1.car02.dllstx6.theplanet.com (12.96.160.23) 50.698 ms 50.884 ms vl2.car02.dllstx6.theplanet.com (12.96.160.55) 52.270 ms
19 b4.e6.344a.static.theplanet.com (74.52.230.180) 50.821 ms 50.912 ms 51.854 ms

[root@closet ~]# traceroute -i eth1 74.52.230.180 -I
traceroute to 74.52.230.180 (74.52.230.180), 30 hops max, 38 byte packets
1 netblock-66-159-214-1.dslextreme.com (66.159.214.1) 7.500 ms 7.670 ms 8.233 ms
2 LAX1.CR1.Gig11-0.dslextreme.com (66.51.199.16) 8.105 ms 7.963 ms 8.896 ms
3 ge-5-1-115.ipcolo1.LosAngeles1.Level3.net (63.209.70.133) 8.729 ms 8.040 ms 8.842 ms
4 ae-31-51.ebr1.LosAngeles1.Level3.net (4.68.102.30) 14.568 ms 20.037 ms 17.934 ms
5 ae-1-100.ebr2.LosAngeles1.Level3.net (4.69.132.6) 13.032 ms 9.067 ms 13.516 ms
6 ae-3.ebr2.Dallas1.Level3.net (4.69.132.78) 51.722 ms 41.509 ms 50.704 ms
7 ae-24-56.car4.Dallas1.Level3.net (4.68.122.176) 41.603 ms 40.736 ms 41.594 ms
8 THE-PLANET.car4.Dallas1.Level3.net (4.71.122.2) 43.319 ms 41.102 ms 40.843 ms
9 te9-2.dsr02.dllstx3.theplanet.com (70.87.253.30) 41.883 ms te7-2.dsr01.dllstx3.theplanet.com (70.87.253.10) 41.437 ms te7-2.dsr02.dllstx3.theplanet.com (70.87.253.26) 42.149 ms
10 vl22.dsr02.dllstx2.theplanet.com (70.85.127.76) 41.086 ms 41.558 ms vl21.dsr01.dllstx2.theplanet.com (70.85.127.67) 42.338 ms
11 vl1.car02.dllstx6.theplanet.com (12.96.160.23) 43.244 ms vl2.car02.dllstx6.theplanet.com (12.96.160.55) 45.974 ms vl1.car02.dllstx6.theplanet.com (12.96.160.23) 41.994 ms
12 b4.e6.344a.static.theplanet.com (74.52.230.180) 41.623 ms 42.197 ms 41.865 ms

I would be really interested in trying this if they had what I said. A list of their local 'pub' servers with their IP addresses (so we can first see what latency we even get to those. Second, a traceroute utility (looking glass) for each of those pubs. It wouldn't be that hard for them to implement.

I guess this product is only really designed to help pings for high distances, so it does help you at all if you mainly play on local servers.
--
Sprint ION = 4650/880 Adelphia = 3300/122, Charter Pipeline = 1540/100 man cable upload sux dont it? And man! my download/upload speed just keeps getting lower and lower doesnt it? Now: DSLExtreme 5400/540 (sustained) finally back up to a great connection

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Thu, 15 Feb 2007 18:45:32 EDT

EnasYorl : Okay. Lets say you want to play on Area 51 MOH server 74.52.230.180:12203

Show us both routes with your current ISP.

This server is close to Dallas. Say GameRail can drop your ping to Dallas by 20 to 30ms. Then it matters.

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Thu, 15 Feb 2007 18:32:07 EDT

houkouonchi :

said by EnasYorl :

said by houkouonchi :

So odds are this product wouldn't help me at all, as at most I would only see it making a 20-30ms improvement (at best) and most times worse, but my DSL already has a 20ms jump on charter in the first place.

It will depend on many factors whether it will help or not.

But a 20 to 30ms improvment can be huge in most FPS games.

»Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

»https://portal.gamerail.com/external/php···.php?f=4

But what I am saying is it won't help much when i can just game through my DSL and that already has a 20ms jump from the getgoe (to the backbone). Also now look at my traceroute during mid-day to lax.speakeasy.net:

Charter:
[root@closet ~]# traceroute -i eth0 lax.speakeasy.net
traceroute to lax.speakeasy.net (64.81.45.2), 30 hops max, 38 byte packets
1 10.237.128.1 (10.237.128.1) 9.147 ms 9.543 ms 6.852 ms
2 71-9-15-21.static.rvsd.ca.charter.com (71.9.15.21) 105.682 ms 39.939 ms 206.084 ms
3 71-9-15-226.static.rvsd.ca.charter.com (71.9.15.226) 8.870 ms 7.993 ms 7.640 ms
4 12.116.50.73 (12.116.50.73) 14.507 ms 14.391 ms 13.905 ms
5 tbr2012701.phmaz.ip.att.net (12.123.206.30) 33.613 ms 33.395 ms 35.561 ms
MPLS Label=31355 CoS=5 TTL=1 S=0
6 tbr2-cl1592.dlstx.ip.att.net (12.122.10.81) 34.281 ms 33.037 ms 33.863 ms
MPLS Label=32059 CoS=5 TTL=1 S=0
7 ggr3-ge110.dlstx.ip.att.net (12.123.16.205) 33.645 ms 33.384 ms 40.555 ms
8 br2-a340s4.dlstx.ip.att.net (192.205.33.142) 39.781 ms 39.802 ms 39.286 ms
9 if-1-0.core2.DTX-Dallas.teleglobe.net (66.198.2.1) 42.114 ms 38.708 ms 40.611 ms
MPLS Label=2190 CoS=5 TTL=1 S=0
10 if-0-0.mcore4.LAA-LosAngeles.teleglobe.net (216.6.85.29) 50.879 ms 58.697 ms 52.153 ms
MPLS Label=2248 CoS=5 TTL=1 S=0
11 if-10-0.core2.LAA-LosAngeles.teleglobe.net (66.198.112.29) 51.386 ms 50.921 ms 51.840 ms
MPLS Label=188 CoS=5 TTL=1 S=0
12 Vlan3.msfc1.LAA-LosAngeles.Teleglobe.net (207.45.220.103) 50.482 ms 58.336 ms 50.454 ms
13 Vlan161.msfc1.LAA-LosAngeles.teleglobe.net (66.198.113.2) 51.698 ms 48.524 ms 50.539 ms
14 dns.lax1.speakeasy.net (64.81.45.2) 53.083 ms 51.383 ms 50.182 ms

DSL:

[root@closet ~]# traceroute -i eth1 lax.speakeasy.net
traceroute to lax.speakeasy.net (64.81.45.2), 30 hops max, 38 byte packets
1 netblock-66-159-214-1.dslextreme.com (66.159.214.1) 7.743 ms 7.636 ms 7.337 ms
2 LAX1.CR1.Gig11-0-20.dslextreme.com (66.51.203.1) 9.105 ms 7.915 ms 8.088 ms
3 ge-5-1-115.ipcolo1.LosAngeles1.Level3.net (63.209.70.133) 8.117 ms 8.320 ms 8.339 ms
4 ge-4-0.ipcolo2.LosAngeles1.Level3.net (4.68.102.11) 8.850 ms 9.055 ms 8.113 ms
5 4.78.194.18 (4.78.194.18) 8.827 ms 8.918 ms 8.832 ms
6 dns.lax1.speakeasy.net (64.81.45.2) 8.607 ms 8.517 ms 8.839 ms

Same exact time of day.
--
Sprint ION = 4650/880 Adelphia = 3300/122, Charter Pipeline = 1540/100 man cable upload sux dont it? And man! my download/upload speed just keeps getting lower and lower doesnt it? Now: DSLExtreme 5400/540 (sustained) finally back up to a great connection

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Thu, 15 Feb 2007 10:38:34 EDT

EnasYorl :

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Thu, 15 Feb 2007 05:50:48 EDT

houkouonchi : SO its obvious this is just tunneling your connection through one of their perring points but this is only helpful if you get low latency to one of their peering points. It would be cool if I could get a list of IP's for their peering points + a traceroute utility on their site for each of these peering points so you could find out your latency, IE ping the peering site closest to you, then run tracerouts from that and add the two numbers together to get your ping. I could see this helping for bad routes, but here in Cali I see 30ms latency to most L.A. servers so unless its actually on charters network I don't see an improvement. Here is an example on the latency difference to a server 50 miles away between charter/dsl:

Charter:

[root@closet bin]# traceroute -i eth0 lax.speakeasy.net
traceroute to lax.speakeasy.net (64.81.45.2), 30 hops max, 38 byte packets
1 10.237.128.1 (10.237.128.1) 16.733 ms 50.188 ms 11.628 ms
2 71-9-15-21.static.rvsd.ca.charter.com (71.9.15.21) 7.305 ms 8.560 ms 11.550 ms
3 71-9-15-226.static.rvsd.ca.charter.com (71.9.15.226) 8.421 ms 7.034 ms 9.726 ms
4 12.116.50.73 (12.116.50.73) 16.359 ms 14.709 ms 18.056 ms
5 tbr1012801.phmaz.ip.att.net (12.123.206.26) 21.909 ms 24.872 ms 21.396 ms
MPLS Label=31231 CoS=5 TTL=1 S=0
6 tbr1-cl3214.la2ca.ip.att.net (12.122.10.86) 22.052 ms 21.954 ms 22.337 ms
MPLS Label=31361 CoS=5 TTL=1 S=0
7 ggr2-p340.la2ca.ip.att.net (12.123.222.33) 22.750 ms 23.202 ms 21.554 ms
8 192.205.34.66 (192.205.34.66) 21.104 ms 24.130 ms 23.363 ms
9 bur-core-02.inet.qwest.net (205.171.213.109) 21.558 ms 22.681 ms 30.566 ms
10 bux-edge-01.inet.qwest.net (205.171.13.178) 41.268 ms 22.011 ms 21.455 ms
11 63.145.160.174 (63.145.160.174) 26.583 ms 27.558 ms 27.546 ms
12 dns.lax1.speakeasy.net (64.81.45.2) 29.997 ms 28.167 ms 30.219 ms

DSL:
[root@closet bin]# traceroute -i eth1 lax.speakeasy.net
traceroute to lax.speakeasy.net (64.81.45.2), 30 hops max, 38 byte packets
1 netblock-66-159-214-1.dslextreme.com (66.159.214.1) 8.004 ms 7.648 ms 8.839 ms
2 LAX1.CR1.Gig11-0-20.dslextreme.com (66.51.203.1) 7.833 ms 8.039 ms 7.994 ms
3 ge-5-1-115.ipcolo1.LosAngeles1.Level3.net (63.209.70.133) 8.350 ms 7.866 ms 7.600 ms
4 ge-4-0.ipcolo2.LosAngeles1.Level3.net (4.68.102.11) 8.856 ms 8.468 ms 8.837 ms
5 4.78.194.18 (4.78.194.18) 9.574 ms 8.784 ms 8.087 ms
6 dns.lax1.speakeasy.net (64.81.45.2) 9.091 ms 8.591 ms 9.082 ms

So odds are this product wouldn't help me at all, as at most I would only see it making a 20-30ms improvement (at best) and most times worse, but my DSL already has a 20ms jump on charter in the first place.
--
Sprint ION = 4650/880 Adelphia = 3300/122, Charter Pipeline = 1540/100 man cable upload sux dont it? And man! my download/upload speed just keeps getting lower and lower doesnt it? Now: DSLExtreme 5400/540 (sustained) finally back up to a great connection

News article mentions $11.99

Tue, 13 Feb 2007 02:34:45 EDT

EnasYorl : »www.stltoday.com/stltoday/busine···Document

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Tue, 13 Feb 2007 00:38:11 EDT

anon : put a tracert to new york, LA to dallas is not across country

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Mon, 12 Feb 2007 22:42:51 EDT

useless :

said by "GR_Alchemist :
Hello all from GameRail. We have watched the Broadband reports news comments with much amusement. We have even offered to give some official statements but I never heard back from the site.

1st off GameRail is a private company and has nothing to do with Charter or any other ISP. We peer with ISPs and Game Server host to provide the best experience for gaming. No ISP will force you to use our product. We are no different than using skype or itunes. Our product gains the best performance peered directly to your ISP. We will peer with any ISP to, we do not pick favorites in each city.

2nd GameRail is not smoke and mirrors, it is not magic. It is a real product that is not for everyone. If you live in say Chicago and play on pub servers in the area all night long then we are not for you. If you play in leagues and have to play in places like Dallas, Atlanta and New York for matches then we could offer improvement. GameRail will offer a free trail. If we do not improve your ping then do not buy our product. It is that easy.

The traceroute posted by Time is nice to see but Atlanta is not even fully peered at this time so I while I am happy to see it lower I would not take that as an example of GameRail's performance.

Check the forms and the FAQ at GameRail.com if you want real answers. No need to read about how people think it works when the answers are already there.

- Jason Baker

unfortunately there are people who post FUD about it being some anti NN scam to charge more money. Offers amusement for many of us also...

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Mon, 12 Feb 2007 22:27:42 EDT

en102 : not that I don't expect this to help out some users, however, I never said that it took the same path as my local ISP. Where it does have some advantages, may be those that are on overloaded/under optimimized ISPs (aka middle America Charter) or ISPs that won't shell out for a decent pipe. Most major hub cities should not have an issue with traffic, unless they are throttled. Services such as this give the excuse to throttle, or limit bandwidth.
Personally I hope it never comes to the point where I have to shell out extra $$$ for VoIP or Skype because ISP's that may take advantage of services such as this.

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Mon, 12 Feb 2007 21:08:50 EDT

EnasYorl :

said by en102 :

This isn't much different than a tunneled connection. I suspect that gamerail is actually using and encrypted tunnel over someone elses backbone (still multiple links... just not visible). I get the same thing when I VPN into work.
1st hop ~ 60ms (Cisco VPN concentrator).
ICMP on some routers/LB's don't always give you what you want.

If it was a direct point to point link, I'd expect better.
I ran 256kbps frame relay across the country and had that kind of response.

....

Actually it's allot different then a Tunneled connection over your ISP as that's going to take the same route to the VPN server whether your tunneling or not.

This service allows you to get off of the freeway your normally on and get into a carpool lane that puts you onto a cargo plane that bypasses freeways and lands you in another city.

And like the Gamerail rep said »Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here? the network isn't complete.

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Mon, 12 Feb 2007 21:04:25 EDT

EnasYorl :

said by GR_Alchemist :

Hello all from GameRail. We have watched the Broadband reports news comments with much amusement. We have even offered to give some official statements but I never heard back from the site.

1st off GameRail is a private company and has nothing to do with Charter or any other ISP. We peer with ISPs and Game Server host to provide the best experience for gaming. No ISP will force you to use our product. We are no different than using skype or itunes. Our product gains the best performance peered directly to your ISP. We will peer with any ISP to, we do not pick favorites in each city.

2nd GameRail is not smoke and mirrors, it is not magic. It is a real product that is not for everyone. If you live in say Chicago and play on pub servers in the area all night long then we are not for you. If you play in leagues and have to play in places like Dallas, Atlanta and New York for matches then we could offer improvement. GameRail will offer a free trail. If we do not improve your ping then do not buy our product. It is that easy.

The traceroute posted by Time is nice to see but Atlanta is not even fully peered at this time so I while I am happy to see it lower I would not take that as an example of GameRail's performance.

Check the forms and the FAQ at GameRail.com if you want real answers. No need to read about how people think it works when the answers are already there.

- Jason Baker

Thank you for dropping in. Your network design looks very promising, and looking forward to the chance to test it out.

My 1st hop to the internet is in Seattle and I play allot on Dallas, TX servers.

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Mon, 12 Feb 2007 20:08:57 EDT

en102 :

said by CMoore2004 :

The VPN hides hops to the VPN server.

Yup

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Mon, 12 Feb 2007 19:52:06 EDT

CMoore2004 : One thing I'd be really interested in seeing is a series of three traceroutes.

One directly to the gameserver, without Gamerail being used.

One to the IP address of the VPN server you use.

One to the gameserver with Gamerail.

I would think your real hops would be the number of hops to the VPN server plus the number to the gameserver with Gamerail. The VPN hides hops to the VPN server.
--
Sprint Mobile Broadband PX-500 | Windows XP MCE SP2 | Mobile AMD Athlon 64 4000+ | 1.5GB RAM | ATI Mobile Radeon X600 128MB | 120GB HDD

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Mon, 12 Feb 2007 19:40:27 EDT

markopoleo :

said by Time :

said by markopoleo :

Simply because of this.
1. Every modern game picks best location for you in multiplayer.

How many times do I have to say it? Read carefully this time please.

When you play in competitive gaming, you don't have a choice of server location if you aren't home team. Refer to my screenshots, it's advertised as "The Network of the CPL". The CPL being the Cyberathlete Professional League.

Also, WoW isn't a ping dependent game, even people with Hughes/WildBlue have no issues playing it. I offered up some screenshots, offer some techincal reason why this will fail, and maybe you will have a point. The service is not questionable, you just don't know how it operates because you refuse to read my posts.

*sigh* speaking of not reading posts..lol

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Mon, 12 Feb 2007 19:30:47 EDT

GR_Alchemist : Hello all from GameRail. We have watched the Broadband reports news comments with much amusement. We have even offered to give some official statements but I never heard back from the site.

1st off GameRail is a private company and has nothing to do with Charter or any other ISP. We peer with ISPs and Game Server host to provide the best experience for gaming. No ISP will force you to use our product. We are no different than using skype or itunes. Our product gains the best performance peered directly to your ISP. We will peer with any ISP to, we do not pick favorites in each city.

2nd GameRail is not smoke and mirrors, it is not magic. It is a real product that is not for everyone. If you live in say Chicago and play on pub servers in the area all night long then we are not for you. If you play in leagues and have to play in places like Dallas, Atlanta and New York for matches then we could offer improvement. GameRail will offer a free trail. If we do not improve your ping then do not buy our product. It is that easy.

The traceroute posted by Time is nice to see but Atlanta is not even fully peered at this time so I while I am happy to see it lower I would not take that as an example of GameRail's performance.

Check the forms and the FAQ at GameRail.com if you want real answers. No need to read about how people think it works when the answers are already there.

- Jason Baker

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Mon, 12 Feb 2007 19:00:20 EDT

en102 : Don't forget... if you're using an encrypted tunnel (i.e. similar to a VPN), not only are you using CPU to encrypt/decrypt, but you're also chewing a bit of bandwidth by encapsulating each packet.

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Mon, 12 Feb 2007 18:57:16 EDT

MxxCon :

said by EnasYorl :

The number of hops is reduced by half. And some hops before using Gamerail spiked over 145ms.

After Gamerail nothing went higher then 71ms.

at the end of the day number of hops doesn't really matter..what matters is how much time it takes for your packet to get to it's destination..and it was ~70ms vs ~65ms
however these results are from just 3 pings each.
instead of traceroute it would be interesting to see results from pathping command.
--
[Sig removed by Administrator: Signature can not exceed 20GB]

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Mon, 12 Feb 2007 18:55:13 EDT

en102 : This isn't much different than a tunneled connection. I suspect that gamerail is actually using and encrypted tunnel over someone elses backbone (still multiple links... just not visible). I get the same thing when I VPN into work.
1st hop ~ 60ms (Cisco VPN concentrator).
ICMP on some routers/LB's don't always give you what you want.

If it was a direct point to point link, I'd expect better.
I ran 256kbps frame relay across the country and had that kind of response.

[root@localhost html]# traceroute artofwarcentral.com
traceroute to artofwarcentral.com (72.36.157.210), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets
 1  zyxel642r (192.168.254.11)  0.785 ms   1.249 ms   1.287 ms
 2  netblock-68-183-84-1.dslextreme.com (68.183.84.1)  10.722 ms   12.613 ms   12.792 ms
 3  LAX1.CR1.Gig11-0.dslextreme.com (66.51.199.16)  10.682 ms   10.081 ms   9.984 ms
 4  ge-5-1-115.ipcolo1.LosAngeles1.Level3.net (63.209.70.133)  10.776 ms   13.278 ms   14.396 ms
 5  ae-22-54.car2.LosAngeles1.Level3.net (4.68.102.109)  11.880 ms   11.380 ms   11.561 ms
 6  savvis-level3-10ge.LosAngeles1.Level3.net (4.68.110.94)  11.249 ms   13.445 ms   12.578 ms
 7  dcr2-ge-3-0-0.losangeles.savvis.net (204.70.193.49)  10.659 ms   12.054 ms   11.446 ms
 8  dcr1-as0-0.LosAngeles.savvis.net (204.70.192.117)  12.285 ms   15.135 ms dcr1-so-2-0-0.dallas.savvis.net (204.70.192.85)  49.814 ms
 9  bhr1-pos-12-0.fortworthda1.savvis.net (208.172.131.82)  48.350 ms   47.692 ms dcr2-so-3-3-0.dallas.savvis.net (204.70.192.246)  47.852 ms
10  bhr1-pos-1-0.fortworthda1.savvis.net (208.172.129.230)  49.278 ms   49.746 ms   49.260 ms
11  216.39.69.206 (216.39.69.206)  48.258 ms 216.39.64.18 (216.39.64.18)  48.606 ms   48.104 ms
12  216.39.69.206 (216.39.69.206)  48.230 ms * *
13  210.157.36.72.reverse.layeredtech.com (72.36.157.210)  50.211 ms   50.186 ms *

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Mon, 12 Feb 2007 18:40:50 EDT

EnasYorl : You didn't look at the traceroutes he posted then. The number of hops is reduced by half. And some hops before using Gamerail spiked over 145ms.

After Gamerail nothing went higher then 71ms.

Note Gamerail's network is still under construction too.

»www.peeringdb.com

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Mon, 12 Feb 2007 18:33:24 EDT

en102 : I wonder if its just a tunneled session over the existing network... a few ms isn't anything to write home over.

I'm on a measly 2.5 Mbps/512kbps DSL, and I have consistent latency until I place a load on the wire.

[root@localhost html]# ping artofwarcentral.com
PING artofwarcentral.com (72.36.157.210) 56(84) bytes of data.
64 bytes from 210.157.36.72.reverse.layeredtech.com (72.36.157.210): icmp_seq=1 ttl=52 time=50.4 ms
64 bytes from 210.157.36.72.reverse.layeredtech.com (72.36.157.210): icmp_seq=2 ttl=52 time=50.5 ms
64 bytes from 210.157.36.72.reverse.layeredtech.com (72.36.157.210): icmp_seq=3 ttl=52 time=50.6 ms
64 bytes from 210.157.36.72.reverse.layeredtech.com (72.36.157.210): icmp_seq=4 ttl=52 time=51.0 ms
64 bytes from 210.157.36.72.reverse.layeredtech.com (72.36.157.210): icmp_seq=5 ttl=52 time=49.6 ms
64 bytes from 210.157.36.72.reverse.layeredtech.com (72.36.157.210): icmp_seq=6 ttl=52 time=50.0 ms
64 bytes from 210.157.36.72.reverse.layeredtech.com (72.36.157.210): icmp_seq=7 ttl=52 time=50.1 ms
64 bytes from 210.157.36.72.reverse.layeredtech.com (72.36.157.210): icmp_seq=8 ttl=52 time=49.8 ms
^C64 bytes from 210.157.36.72.reverse.layeredtech.com (72.36.157.210): icmp_seq=9 ttl=52 time=50.1 ms
64 bytes from 210.157.36.72.reverse.layeredtech.com (72.36.157.210): icmp_seq=10 ttl=52 time=49.4 ms

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Mon, 12 Feb 2007 16:32:32 EDT

anon : You guys sound like the high school kids I teach. Competitive Gaming. lol ... I need a new line of work :)

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Mon, 12 Feb 2007 16:14:44 EDT

Time :

said by markopoleo :

Simply because of this.
1. Every modern game picks best location for you in multiplayer.

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Mon, 12 Feb 2007 14:52:51 EDT

EnasYorl :

said by Time :

As requested, this is to an Atlanta server. You can see the difference, I ping ~90 in game without Gamerail, and 65 with. Also, markopoleo, this isn't a Charter service, Gamerail just has peering arrangements with them (two seperate companies). I have Cox now (used to have Charter), but I can imagine tracerts would be even better for someone who has Charter.

Notice how more consistent your pings are on the traceroute using GRail.

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Mon, 12 Feb 2007 14:34:49 EDT

EnasYorl :

said by Time :

said by markopoleo :

said by useless :

Time notes he lives in Nevada and plays in Chicago. Im trying to figure out why this is so hard to comprehend. And I am sure the service is nothing like a download accelerator, which is just a proxy service offered by dial up companies, so far apart in terms of functionality that lumping them together is pretty asinine.

I'm using it in reference to they claim based on hardly any evidence that its worth what you pay for, when you already have a fast connection good pings to most servers if on broadand. The service is being marketing like its going to decrease your pings so much, when in reality it won't make much good.

Right, so when Savvis routes me from San Jose to Denver, to Chicago, TO DALLAS (LOL), then back to Chicago, that's what you consider to be fast routing? Since Savvis owns most of the routes into Chicago, I'd call it horrible, more like it. Guess where I route with GameRail? From my ISP, straight to Dallas, and a direct route to Chicago, reaching the server within 4 hops once I am on the private network. So yes, in theory and physics, it does work. You haven't offered up any evidence that it doesn't, so stop trying to degrade a service you know nothing of.

The other issue not discussed is that this is a dedicated network for UDP traffic only.

AVERAGE ping to a server means nothing if it's spiking to 300ms every 60 seconds due to P2P traffic etc.

I play on specific servers where the Guild/Clan are playing/hosting. So there is no choice on what servers we play on. Everyone plays on clan server in Dallas. So sacrifice a few Starbucks coffee drinks in a month and you have this service that will help out in most cases. Given time Gamerail will grow it's network out.

It's a great idea. Hope they land on their feet.

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Sun, 11 Feb 2007 18:50:38 EDT

adio25 : I've been gaming since 2002 and I've been on one of the top 10 teams in North America for 2 games.

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Sun, 11 Feb 2007 18:45:37 EDT

useless : You finally made a decent point,

It appeals to a few people because there is only a small percentage of "hardcore" gamers.

--and--

Yes, most people play on a server that they good latency on, it enhances play.

2 points though,

1. You have no understanding of some of the first type of code that addresses the problems associated with lag. The code for many games until a couple years ago was written to accomodate people with 250ms latency in some cases. (see interpolation, netcode from the halflife 1 engine). If you do, you sure as hell dont act like it. Ping is a function of the server in many cases, and the route in most others. Not the ISP the person playing is on. go to 2.

2. The 2 factors being the route and the server, you fix the route there is only 1 factor left. I am assuming 2 things.
The person is a "hardcore" gamer and has a above average spec rig, and decent bandwidth from his ISP.

I invite you to go any college in the country with a LAN, and watch the latency to the server remain under 20 regardless of how many people are on it, if it is on a decent box. The minute you are running a virtual host with 4 servers or so and stat tracking behind it, and the bandwidth is maxed out, proc usage is higher, you see you "ping" times increase because the server is taking longer to respond.

Ultimately we agree, just play on a closer server. I never get over 30 or so going to Chicago...

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Sun, 11 Feb 2007 12:39:13 EDT

markopoleo : You are still not understanding Time. No evidence suggest I am wrong on the service.

I was talking in IRC last night about it to quite a few people who play WoW and Bf2 and not a single one would care for it even though we all play all over the country together in games.

Simply because of this.
1. Every modern game picks best location for you in multiplayer.
2. Latency is far from a issue in most modern games now with all the error correction. (within reason, 10-100ms is not that big of deal now). 1990s it mattered sure, not now.
3. $15 a month for most ISPs is enough to get a better speed package from them. Even hardcore games would jump on this first.
4. Its $15 a month..goes without saying.
5. It appeals to very limited people. Those with terrible pings all the time have a ISP issue most likely. :P
6. The service itself is questionable. Millage will vary, you could see a 10ms drop or not at all.

So many wrongs than rights is why it is not a good idea now.

I'm sure it will have appeal to certain people who just can't get good routes to certain servers the love to play on. But its a limited service, with very few customers I see(perhaps why the $15 a month).

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Sun, 11 Feb 2007 02:55:42 EDT

Time :

said by markopoleo :

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Sat, 10 Feb 2007 21:41:12 EDT

EnasYorl : Forums have to be a beta tester to post »https://portal.gamerail.com/external/php···ndex.php

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Sat, 10 Feb 2007 20:48:02 EDT

markopoleo :

said by adio25 :

Not sure if you noticed but it doesn't matter if its empty or not. You don't know a thing so don't even waste thread space.

Does not matter if its full or not?? wow, just wow, any gamer can tell you the pings are different between a full and not full server if you ping them. Refreshing ASE right now I can see that as proof. lol

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Sat, 10 Feb 2007 20:42:57 EDT

markopoleo :

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Sat, 10 Feb 2007 20:23:42 EDT

EnasYorl :

said by psianime :

Seems like an interesting concept but if our ISP's didn't oversell their networks this service would never be needed.

Not true. Most Hops add 5 to 10 ms on average.

So if you eliminated 5 to 10 hops that in turn can give back (reduce) 25 to 50ms lost in transit.

The internet wasn't built with latency in mind, it was built with redundancy in mind.

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Sat, 10 Feb 2007 17:05:49 EDT

ronpin : From the cited link for peering DB - GameRail entry

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Sat, 10 Feb 2007 16:49:28 EDT

useless : Adio25 has already addressed the main issue.

I just wanted to add, if you are playing on a server that has a higher limit ( 64 was the example ) and the ping changes due to how many people are on it, that is a problem with the server's connection or resources, not your ISP. Many game server companies pile these things up , sometimes 3-4 per box, trying to make money, because they are businesses after all.

The service in question in the thread claims to help people who have poor latency due to routing, possibly due to location relative to the server, possibly due to the way traffic leaves the ISP. If I am already pinging the server I want to play on @ 30ms, it wont help me. If I wanted to play on a server located in NY city, it might help (or might not) by improving the way my traffic gets to and from the server.

Time notes he lives in Nevada and plays in Chicago. Im trying to figure out why this is so hard to comprehend. And I am sure the service is nothing like a download accelerator, which is just a proxy service offered by dial up companies, so far apart in terms of functionality that lumping them together is pretty asinine.

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Sat, 10 Feb 2007 15:52:27 EDT

EnasYorl :

said by BoMarty :

I too looked at the video, and here are my thoughts.

1-the video was pinging 2 of 3 servers that are empty
2-the video used a St Louis server as one of the 3. The pings before he switched to "GameRail", I never get those higher pings being I am also in St Louis.
3-I have played on a BF2 server just across the river here in St Louis and get the same "GameRail" server low ping. About 16ms or so. Again, the video shows a empty St Louis Server. And I am not on the "GameRail" server.
4-one of the 3 servers was from Texas. Here in St Louis, I ping very low to Texas servers, probably lower than the video shows without "GameRail".
5-I believe Charter keeps the St Louis Market "fine tuned" because it is in their back yard.

Overall, at first look, Game Rail would not be worth the extra monthly fee.

If you are in a Market that is oversold, then if Game Rail can by pass the public internet, it may very well be worth the monthly fee.

My 2 cents for what it is worth :)

It will be worth the money as they complete deployment. If you read the forums you'd know all the routing isn't built yet. But I've been watching the below link and information is populating.

For those geeks »https://www.peeringdb.com/private/partic···p?id=973

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Sat, 10 Feb 2007 15:16:41 EDT

Time :

said by markopoleo :

Again, you have not offered anything about the service that would appeal to ~~anyone~~ myself really. Esp for $15 extra a month.

Fixed.

said by markopoleo :

I did sign up for beta test fyi just never heard back from them..

I read the website about the service, if that is not enough, again, another example of how its going to be HARD to sell. The site reads like a "download accelerator" program they put on AOL dialup CD back in the day to increase your dialup connection by %200! Those also failed big time because no one on dialup could justify putting the $5-10 some ISP out for it.

Those aren't competitive gamers, they are the key targets, and if you seriously think they won't pay $15 a month, just look at the large numbers of them who in addition to competitive game play, also pay to play World of Warcraft. They spend thousands yearly just to attend LAN events, so if you believe $15 is too expensive, think again.

How can you compare this to a download accelerator? It's one thing to maintain several connections with a server, and it's another to create a VPN that allows you access to a private (and high speed) network.

said by markopoleo :

If they put up a video that showed the ISP they used, the connection,computer specs, pinged on all full servers, with all different types of games, all over the country, over a course of a few hours and showed the average vs the Game Rail ping then I would consider it something to be interested in.

Not sure what game you play, but in my game, it doesn't matter if the server is full or not, your ping will remain the same.
--
"May God have mercy on my enemies, because I won't." - General George Patton

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Sat, 10 Feb 2007 15:10:06 EDT

Time :

said by JIGA :

Lets say for example some user has bad pings (100 to 200ms) to many servers he likes to play. He plays on pubs of 20 to 64+ player servers. If he wanted to get his pings sub 100ms would this service do that?

This service is not just for CS/CSS but for any user that wants to lower their ingame ping in any online game. Can this service provide those kind of results? Is it that reliable?

I really don't think so. Its a moot point to me anyways, I get sub 100ms to any dedicated server is the US mostly.

I don't play CS, I play Call of Duty 2.

I usually ping 100 in Chicago servers, now I ping 60's. New York used to be around 130, it is now 75-80.
--
"May God have mercy on my enemies, because I won't." - General George Patton

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Sat, 10 Feb 2007 14:59:12 EDT

adio25 : Not sure if you noticed but it doesn't matter if its empty or not. You don't know a thing so don't even waste thread space.

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Sat, 10 Feb 2007 14:35:32 EDT

JIGA : Lets say for example some user has bad pings (100 to 200ms) to many servers he likes to play. He plays on pubs of 20 to 64+ player servers. If he wanted to get his pings sub 100ms would this service do that?

This service is not just for CS/CSS but for any user that wants to lower their ingame ping in any online game. Can this service provide those kind of results? Is it that reliable?

I really don't think so. Its a moot point to me anyways, I get sub 100ms to any dedicated server is the US mostly.

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Sat, 10 Feb 2007 12:28:36 EDT

markopoleo : I did sign up for beta test fyi just never heard back from them..

I read the website about the service, if that is not enough, again, another example of how its going to be HARD to sell. The site reads like a "download accelerator" program they put on AOL dialup CD back in the day to increase your dialup connection by %200! Those also failed big time because no one on dialup could justify putting the $5-10 some ISP out for it.

Again, you have not offered anything about the service that would appeal to anyone really. Esp for $15 extra a month.

If they put up a video that showed the ISP they used, the connection,computer specs, pinged on all full servers, with all different types of games, all over the country, over a course of a few hours and showed the average vs the Game Rail ping then I would consider it something to be interested in.

So far its been smoke and mirrors.

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Fri, 09 Feb 2007 22:22:01 EDT

Time :

said by markopoleo :

Yes screen shots on the internet are so convincing of a service working as advertised. /sarcasm off

Its just as easy for me to convince people that the service is not good as it is for you trying to convince them it is. I think that is a pretty bad sign for you to sell it to customers..

How is it easy for you to convince people about the service if you know nothing about it? Your opinion is off-base and pure speculation, you haven't tested the product, nor do you know anything about it apparently.

I'm also not selling it, I'm just a beta tester. There was a thread about it, so I posted my opinion with screenshots showing what one can expect from the client. Then you come in with false statements, and offer nothing other then a negative view of a service that you haven't even used. It reminds me of the users on this site who rate an internet service they didn't sign up for. :uhh:
--
"May God have mercy on my enemies, because I won't." - General George Patton

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Fri, 09 Feb 2007 20:58:22 EDT

useless : ? They had people on them (some of them). Do you have a problem reading?

What is an acceptable amount of people? I hadnt even finished the update before taking the screen shot. I mean, just let me know and I can do it again...

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Fri, 09 Feb 2007 14:39:24 EDT

j0j081 : well like I said I have the client installed and it appears to run fine but it won't connect due the the virtual network connection not being installed. if someone will look at theirs and give me it's properties then I can test it.

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Fri, 09 Feb 2007 11:23:59 EDT

markopoleo : Yes screen shots on the internet are so convincing of a service working as advertised. /sarcasm off

Its just as easy for me to convince people that the service is not good as it is for you trying to convince them it is. I think that is a pretty bad sign for you to sell it to customers..

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Fri, 09 Feb 2007 08:27:38 EDT

WyckedKnight : jojo81 i checked there forums out. and i don't think it can run on the 64bit XP. www.gamerail.com is the ip for the site for those wondering to get it. I'm always open for experiments. Apologies if i can't give the link out.

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Fri, 09 Feb 2007 08:11:07 EDT

keybrdmssiah : Time aka newb :P

Can't wait for gamerail :D

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Fri, 09 Feb 2007 07:41:38 EDT

JIGA : lol @ pinging empty servers :p

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Fri, 09 Feb 2007 06:26:28 EDT

j0j081 : Will someone give me the info to create the virtual network connection??? I am trying to use this on 64 bit XP. The client installs and runs fine but they haven't configured the setup process to make the vitual adapter on the 64 bit OS. I'm hoping if I create it manually everything will work. Worth a shot anyway!

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Thu, 08 Feb 2007 23:52:32 EDT

Time :

said by markopoleo :

said by Time :

said by markopoleo :

A youtube video showing pings getting better running a program? If you refresh any server list the pings will change, esp in CS. Some pings will show up 100ms but its like 5ms for me playing. Sense most hardcore games know there computer stuff, i don't see any of them being convinced.

You don't even know what it does apparently. Pings won't drop by 40 ms, no matter how terrible the steam client is.

Oh so the youtube video is just a flat out lie. Got it check. Pings won't drop 40s no matter how terrible the steam client is? You can refresh a BF2 server/steam/UT, etc list all day and get crazy wild pings on every server, you join the and they are fine. Same with any game I've ever played. You apparently never played a online game.

Real world vs a game browser are not even close.

:uhh:

So I guess my screenshots say nothing about what it does? Some people are negative about everything.
--
"May God have mercy on my enemies, because I won't." - General George Patton

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Thu, 08 Feb 2007 23:51:16 EDT

Time :

said by jarablue :

I asked 4 different sales reps if I could get game rail, each one of them said I have no idea what that is. Sorry.

That's because it isn't a Charter service, like I said, they just have peering arrangements.
--
"May God have mercy on my enemies, because I won't." - General George Patton

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Thu, 08 Feb 2007 23:20:28 EDT

markopoleo :

said by Time :

You don't even know what it does apparently. Pings won't drop by 40 ms, no matter how terrible the steam client is.

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Thu, 08 Feb 2007 22:32:40 EDT

jarablue : I asked 4 different sales reps if I could get game rail, each one of them said I have no idea what that is. Sorry.

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Thu, 08 Feb 2007 21:34:52 EDT

anon : "Where does one go to order this? The sales people are clueless. No suprise there though."

Whos clueless?

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Thu, 08 Feb 2007 21:29:52 EDT

ronpin : Thank you! that's exactly what I needed. Now I'm off to my "chin-scratchin". I want to consider just what the network/GameRail is really doing to attain those latencies. There is more than meets the eye yes?
--
America has been hijacked by selfish nationalist corporate pigs. The whole world hates us now. Have a nice day.

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Thu, 08 Feb 2007 21:00:34 EDT

Time :

You don't even know what it does apparently. Pings won't drop by 40 ms, no matter how terrible the steam client is.
--
"May God have mercy on my enemies, because I won't." - General George Patton

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Thu, 08 Feb 2007 20:56:22 EDT

Time : As requested, this is to an Atlanta server. You can see the difference, I ping ~90 in game without Gamerail, and 65 with. Also, markopoleo, this isn't a Charter service, Gamerail just has peering arrangements with them (two seperate companies). I have Cox now (used to have Charter), but I can imagine tracerts would be even better for someone who has Charter.
--
"May God have mercy on my enemies, because I won't." - General George Patton

The client
Not running GameRail
Running GameRail

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Thu, 08 Feb 2007 19:37:48 EDT

markopoleo : I have yet to see any evidence that it won't fail..

A youtube video showing pings getting better running a program? If you refresh any server list the pings will change, esp in CS. Some pings will show up 100ms but its like 5ms for me playing. Sense most hardcore games know there computer stuff, i don't see any of them being convinced.

I mean good for charter if it takes off, but im calling them out on this one.

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Thu, 08 Feb 2007 19:06:18 EDT

ronpin :

said by Time :

You can't browse the internet with the client running,

That would make sense -- sense it's a gaming server and not a web server. Seems like a traceroute should still work though -- to the GameServer.

I just think a traceroute would explain everything -- more than the simple latency time shown.
--
America has been hijacked by selfish nationalist corporate pigs. The whole world hates us now. Have a nice day.

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Thu, 08 Feb 2007 19:00:52 EDT

Time : I think the fact of the matter is that if you aren't a gamer, competitive primarily, it doesn't really matter if you complain about this. You can doubt it all you wish, but atleast come up with some conclusive evidence that is going to say "this product will fail because of ****". I doubt you will find it, because it won't fail.

Here's how it works (indepth since my first post might have missed something):

1. You login with the client.

2. It creates a virtual network adapter, and establishes a VPN using that.

3. Using the virtual network adapter, and the "VPN" (per say), it routes your packets to the gateway of your choice. This is done over your ISP's network (internal if they have peering arrangements, internal/external if they don't).

4. From the gateway, you have a direct route to whichever city the server is hosted in. As I said, before I got the beta, I pinged anywhere from 100-120 to Chicago (crappy Savvis routing, I don't know why Internap uses them), with this, I ping 60-70.

You can't browse the internet with the client running, and I've had some trouble using it with my PC, which is on a wireless network.

(not replying to you ron, just in general)
--
"May God have mercy on my enemies, because I won't." - General George Patton

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Thu, 08 Feb 2007 18:39:44 EDT

DaSneaky1D : I wasn't trying to pick particulars regarding directions. Point is, StL has two awesome routes to major peering points. Latency to nearly anywhere major is usually not a problem.

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Thu, 08 Feb 2007 18:18:43 EDT

useless : Chicago is to the North...not the right.

And to the right is cincy and louisville.

Dallas is close though, the interweb pretty much runs through chicago and dallas, coast to coast.

Obviously DSL will give better latency. so charter makes you pay for game rail, which is anti NN. LOL. sorry.

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Thu, 08 Feb 2007 18:15:20 EDT

DaSneaky1D : I think St. Louis is in a unique position with regards to telecom in general. We have KC to the left and Chi to the right. Both of those cities are major peering points. Also, we have Tucker St. Downtown.

Unless the fabric of space and time can be altered, I don't think "we" can get any better, latency-wise.

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Thu, 08 Feb 2007 18:12:25 EDT

useless : I dont use game rail, not sure how it would help me on those servers. But if I wanted to play in CA or NY, it might help. Getting DSL wouldnt help me with latency to either.

If you want I can trace those, guessing they are in Chicago or Dallas though.

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Thu, 08 Feb 2007 18:05:05 EDT

jarablue : Where does one go to order this? The sales people are clueless. No suprise there though.

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Thu, 08 Feb 2007 17:57:54 EDT

ronpin : Thanks. I'd really hoped to see an actual traceroute -- showing what hops are made by GameRail to get between game servers.
--
America has been hijacked by selfish nationalist corporate pigs. The whole world hates us now. Have a nice day.

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Thu, 08 Feb 2007 17:52:23 EDT

useless : I thought you would never ask. If this isnt good enough I can create a demo for you...

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Thu, 08 Feb 2007 14:55:52 EDT

ronpin :

said by markopoleo :

I don't have any problems with webcams or anything latency related.

Have ever video conferenced on DSL? and then on Cable? and faithfully compared the two on video performance? I can tell you that DSL fared better on that test. Of course "all broadband is local" ;)

(I'm happy for you if the answer is yes -- and you saw no difference)
--
America has been hijacked by selfish nationalist corporate pigs. The whole world hates us now. Have a nice day.

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Thu, 08 Feb 2007 14:50:39 EDT

markopoleo : I don't have any problems with webcams or anything latency related.

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Thu, 08 Feb 2007 11:10:34 EDT

ronpin : Webcam it -- you'll see what I mean. The eyes don't lie. ATM was designed to avoid latency. Telcos are ATM. Cable is not. Still, I'll keep my 10mbs Charter connection (thank-you Paul ;) )
--
America has been hijacked by selfish nationalist corporate pigs. The whole world hates us now. Have a nice day.

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Thu, 08 Feb 2007 01:24:58 EDT

markopoleo : Yah the DSL vs Cable debate is dead with regards to latency (pricing is a different story). Cable and DSL are comparable in latency.

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Wed, 07 Feb 2007 18:54:17 EDT

useless : The greatest part of you post was the part where it included any kind of factual information. Oh wait...

Quite obvious?

With DSL you are sharing bandwidth before you leave the network, it is no different than cable in that regard.

Cable is an "RF" system, DSL is directly proportional do the distance from the "central office" or DSLAM. Both are effected by the quality of the wiring IN YOUR HOUSE.

It comes down to routing. I had DSL for awhile and had great speeds to Dallas. I got all of my 6MB / 512 MB. All the time. I am close to the "Central Office"

I happen to also get incredible speeds with Charter. 10/1 all the time. Latency is better to Chicago then it was with DSL.

The service in the thread is a means to provide you a different route, that is "optimized."

Another great example is Comcast in TN. If you have Comcast in TN, you go to game servers in ATL in about 20 ms. I use to play counterstrike with a ping ~20-30 consistently with Comcast, but I had to play in Atlanta.

If you want to play on a server to which your routing sucks, this service would probably help. Otherwise play on a closer server...

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Wed, 07 Feb 2007 07:42:49 EDT

ronpin :

said by useless :

said by "ronpin" :
Actually, that's what I've been thinking too. Competitive gamers would surely know that DSL has inherently lower latency than cable -- not to mention vastly cheaper.

Such a bold statement, I would love to see your explanation.

DSL is mostly sold by Tier1 providers (Telcos - AT&T, Qwest, Verizon) using their own national ATM networks. Cable is mostly sold by Tier2 providers using leaky RF networks. Tier2 providers must first "get-to" a Tier1 network for routing their internet traffic -- where it's then translated (SAR'd) into smaller-packet ATM traffic. So Tier2 traffic is at an inherent latency disadvantage from the git-go. Second, the nature of the DOCSIS RF PHY media is easy to screw-up -- with RF leaks. The shared nature of cable's "last mile" can also cause problems during peak usage hours.

Still there are exceptions. Some local cable networks can be "pristine" and very close to a Tier1 provider. Some DSL networks can be old and noisy and far from a Tier1 provider.

Still, most metro users find DSL to provide lower latency overall than cable. Cable often provides higher speeds than DSL though. Heavy downloaders will prefer Cable while gamers will prefer DSL -- for the lower latency.

These are not hard and fast rules. It's easy to make logical arguments against these assumptions. Do a Google search on "Latency "cable vs DSL" " and you'll see some sources.

Personally, I clearly see the difference in DSL when I videoconference -- voice is better synched with video. It's quite obvious. Your mileage may vary.
--
America has been hijacked by selfish nationalist corporate pigs. The whole world hates us now. Have a nice day.

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Wed, 07 Feb 2007 07:00:22 EDT

JIGA : I really don't see that many competitive gamers using this. Heck, most are under the age of 18. The last CPL I attended I felt old! and I was only 25 at the time. That was back in 2004.

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Wed, 07 Feb 2007 04:18:35 EDT

psianime : When I was playing Counter-Strike and switched from 56k to DSL it was like night and day. Reducing your ping by 200ms+ was something to hollar about.

The only real "upgrade" in lantency I can really see from DSL/Cable is actually being on a LAN.

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Wed, 07 Feb 2007 00:19:51 EDT

BF69 : This is BS. If someone can make the speed of light increase 5 fold then someone may have a real solution to lacency.

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Tue, 06 Feb 2007 22:34:02 EDT

useless :

said by "ronpin" :
Actually, that's what I've been thinking too. Competitive gamers would surely know that DSL has inherently lower latency than cable -- not to mention vastly cheaper.

Such a bold statement, I would love to see your explanation.

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Tue, 06 Feb 2007 21:02:36 EDT

markopoleo : Well you have to understand the skepticism I have for stuff like this. When they put stuff in like this it is kind of saying "we can give lower pings to anyone you just have to pay $15 more a month". That does not seem right considering most get higher tier packages for a lower ping/faster download to begin with.

It kind of tells customers "Charter can offer these reduced pings for more money, but can't just give to all the customers to begin with?!"

It is in my opinion that all the "hardcore/competitive" gamers already upgraded to Charter 10meg service to begin with.

ronpin, you would be surprised the amount of Charter customers in some states can't get DSL. I check every year, and its always "a few years away", i live in a pretty dense area.

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Tue, 06 Feb 2007 20:59:21 EDT

keybrdmssiah : Signed up for the beta test ...

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Tue, 06 Feb 2007 20:07:30 EDT

ronpin :

said by markopoleo :

I hope no money was exchanged in this "deal" because its something that is going to bomb. I doubt even competitive gamers would jump on it.

Actually, that's what I've been thinking too. Competitive gamers would surely know that DSL has inherently lower latency than cable -- not to mention vastly cheaper.

It's nice to have this option for cable -- but it may be a long shot to find enough subscribers. Cable needs to cater to speed freaks -- the one thing we can't get anywhere else but FiOS. I don't know about others -- but the main reason I came back to Charter was for the 10mbs pkg. I'm no gamer so low latency hasn't become a priority yet. Video-conferencing might change that though. I mainly just download lecture videos and watch international newscast.

Still I'd like to see the traceroute for GameRail.
--
America has been hijacked by selfish nationalist corporate pigs. The whole world hates us now. Have a nice day.

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Tue, 06 Feb 2007 19:09:17 EDT

markopoleo : I hope no money was exchanged in this "deal" because its something that is going to bomb. I doubt even competitive gamers would jump on it.

I don't, nor does anyone else have to "experience" it to know that.

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Tue, 06 Feb 2007 15:40:40 EDT

Time : I'll say it again...

This is sponsored by CAL/CPL, meaning their target consumers are competitive gamers. When you are away team, you don't have a choice of where the other team will buy their server, so if you happen to play a team who has a server in New York, and you live in California, this can benefit you.

1-I wasn't aware of any match play that has more then 12 people in a server at a time.

2-The video did use a Saint Louis server, but Alchemist (the guy who made the video) does not live in Saint Louis, so point number 2 doesn't really hold much.

3-This isn't supposed to improve your local ping, not sure where you got that from.

4-The video was probably made before the arrangements with Charter.
--
"May God have mercy on my enemies, because I won't." - General George Patton

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Tue, 06 Feb 2007 15:30:52 EDT

BoMarty : I too looked at the video, and here are my thoughts.

1-the video was pinging 2 of 3 servers that are empty
2-the video used a St Louis server as one of the 3. The pings before he switched to "GameRail", I never get those higher pings being I am also in St Louis.
3-I have played on a BF2 server just across the river here in St Louis and get the same "GameRail" server low ping. About 16ms or so. Again, the video shows a empty St Louis Server. And I am not on the "GameRail" server.
4-one of the 3 servers was from Texas. Here in St Louis, I ping very low to Texas servers, probably lower than the video shows without "GameRail".
5-I believe Charter keeps the St Louis Market "fine tuned" because it is in their back yard.

Overall, at first look, Game Rail would not be worth the extra monthly fee.

If you are in a Market that is oversold, then if Game Rail can by pass the public internet, it may very well be worth the monthly fee.

My 2 cents for what it is worth :)

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Tue, 06 Feb 2007 14:55:27 EDT

Time :

said by markopoleo :

I stand by what i said. Not worth it.

The only exception I would say is if you have lots of friends on a particular server that you like to play with, but is that worth $15 a month for a little better ping?

But with all games that pick the best servers near you anyways, its not really a issue for majority of Charter users. Like for me my pings on %90 of every server are below 30ms it does not matter.

If you're away team in competitive gaming, you don't really have a choice, do you? That's what GameRail is useful for. It falls back on the fact that you can't speak for a service if you haven't experienced it.
--
"May God have mercy on my enemies, because I won't." - General George Patton

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Tue, 06 Feb 2007 14:47:41 EDT

markopoleo : I stand by what i said. Not worth it.

The only exception I would say is if you have lots of friends on a particular server that you like to play with, but is that worth $15 a month for a little better ping?

But with all games that pick the best servers near you anyways, its not really a issue for majority of Charter users. Like for me my pings on %90 of every server are below 30ms it does not matter.

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Tue, 06 Feb 2007 14:47:33 EDT

dispatcher21 : This is a perfect example of what the net neutrality debate is about. I'm sure that Time will tell you that its not since its an addon but what says that it stops with gaming? Who says that in the future Charter and other providers wont charge people $15.00 to have good performance to any server? Also, if Charters internal network to the gateway sucks ass, how does this help? You might get good latency once it leaves Charters network and hits Gamerail but there are many Charter areas that have crappy performance on the internal network. Seems like people would be paying extra for something that Charter should already be doing.

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Tue, 06 Feb 2007 14:10:13 EDT

Time : I use GameRail, I'll post screenshots of the client and my tracerts when I get home. It actually does drop your ping, I normally ping 100 to Chicago, but when I use GameRail, it drops it to the mid-60's.

Basically, you have a choice of gateways around the country. Since I'm west coast, I typically go through Los Angeles. GameRail creates a "virtual" connection (similar to what Daeman Tools does with virtual drives). They setup their network so it's no more then two hops from the gateway to the location of the server (Saint Louis, Chicago, Seattle, New York, Virginia, and Atlanta).

It will be worth the $15 when it comes out, regardless of what the doubters in this thread say.

EDIT: I think some of you aren't understanding what this is. It's not an "internet service", it's in ADDITION to your broadband service. It simply creates a virtual connection which routes all traffic to a specific gateway. You have a choice of gateways all over the country (St. Louis, Chicago, New York, Virginia, Los Angeles, etc), and from there, it routes you straight to the location of the server you are playing in (assuming it's in a major city). You can sign up for the beta, and they decide who gets to use it based on your location and ISP. Keep in mind, this is mainly for competitive gaming, hence the association with CAL/CPL. By GameRail partnering with Charter, or any other ISP for that matter, they are simply setting up peering/advertising agreements.
--
"May God have mercy on my enemies, because I won't." - General George Patton

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Tue, 06 Feb 2007 13:37:25 EDT

markopoleo : I get those same pings on my 10meg/1meg service here, $15 more a month is what it would cost going from typical 5meg to 10meg..

Bf2 server in Chicago i get around 10-14ms..on 64player.

Honestly its not worth it.

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Tue, 06 Feb 2007 10:04:57 EDT

cschlik : Low consistent pings are what i miss about DSL. Unfortunately the copper in my area has degraded to the point that DSL is no longer an option. I am only able to get 1.5/256. I have noticed a lot of ping fluxuation during prime-time with Charter.

I need all the help I can get with COD2 as my reflexes are not what they used to be. I remember playing Quake on dialup (circa 1996) and you would refer to anyone with less than a 200 ping a LPB (Low Ping Bast...).

I would consider this service if the pings were better significantly than DSL. Heck, a basic DSL account would cost less.

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Tue, 06 Feb 2007 09:56:03 EDT

Hemp : yeah I saw that, it looks great. i hope its available here :O

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Tue, 06 Feb 2007 09:29:31 EDT

ronpin : Here's the video I posted in another thread here -- for your benefit. I still want to see an actual traceroute though.

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJab6eN6aVw
--
America has been hijacked by selfish nationalist corporate pigs. The whole world hates us now. Have a nice day.

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Tue, 06 Feb 2007 07:32:33 EDT

Hemp : well if this works ill cancel my dsl, the only thing i want is good ping and routing

like.. i have half the ping and its really consistant with dsl

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Tue, 06 Feb 2007 05:47:05 EDT

psianime : If anything we can call in Al Gore to help us invent the Interweb 3.0.

It's really sad to see that we have to pay a premium to get low pings on our cable/dsl service. I thought paying $50+ a month entitled us to that. I guess not.

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Tue, 06 Feb 2007 03:09:30 EDT

anon : Sounds cool, so, what they are doing is letting a third party company buy priority VPN routing, so the third party can resell it to game server farms, and end users. It's basically the same priority routing they give to business customers, VIOP resellers and I wonder if xbox live has priority routing? What about the rest of the HSI customers that Charter already advertises real time gaming with no delays to?

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Mon, 05 Feb 2007 23:03:27 EDT

cschlik : How true. I wonder how good it works when the network is bogged down??

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Mon, 05 Feb 2007 22:44:11 EDT

psianime : Seems like an interesting concept but if our ISP's didn't oversell their networks this service would never be needed.

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Mon, 05 Feb 2007 22:00:51 EDT

cschlik : There is a Youtube video on www.gamerail.com which shows pings with and without gamerail running. Pings on the status page drop in half. You can sign up for a beta... I don't know if the cost is lower for the beta...

Chris

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Mon, 05 Feb 2007 20:34:02 EDT

waltl : That sounds too good to be true. I'd buy it if there's proof it works.

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Mon, 05 Feb 2007 10:35:15 EDT

ronpin : BBR reported it last week. It's $15/mo. I'm thinking it might be worth it -- but I'd like to see some actual milage reports (preferable during prime-time)
--
America has been hijacked by selfish nationalist corporate pigs. The whole world hates us now. Have a nice day.

Re: Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Mon, 05 Feb 2007 10:27:33 EDT

Hemp : eh
when did this become available and how much MORE is it a month? :

Any "GameRail" (low latency gamer option) users here?

Mon, 05 Feb 2007 09:16:33 EDT

ronpin : Charter has partnered with GameRail to provide very low-latency "game-server to game-server" routing -- in multiple metro areas.

If there are any GameRail subscribers here I'd like to see some actual traceroutes/ping-times while "connected" to a GameRail server.
--
America has been hijacked by selfish nationalist corporate pigs. The whole world hates us now. Have a nice day.