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 MaxoYour tax dollars at work.Premium,VIP
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL | What? If they ISPs are advertising "up to" speeds and delivering "up to speeds" then what's the problem? If they remove the "up to" terminology THEN it would be false and confusing advertising.
If the people in Australia can't understand plain English then maybe their public education system is the one that needs to step in, not the FTC. | |
|   vpokoPremium
join:2003-07-03
Boston, MA | Re: What? said by Maxo:If they ISPs are advertising "up to" speeds and delivering "up to speeds" then what's the problem? If they remove the "up to" terminology THEN it would be false and confusing advertising. If the people in Australia can't understand plain English then maybe their public education system is the one that needs to step in, not the FTC. Up to implies that at least some people are getting those speeds. If the service is advertized as up to 8mbps and people are getting 6mbps at best, there's a very novel use of the term "up to" going on. | |
| | MaxoYour tax dollars at work.Premium,VIP
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL | Re: What? said by vpoko:Up to implies that at least some people are getting those speeds. If the service is advertized as up to 8mbps and people are getting 6mbps at best, there's a very novel use of the term "up to" going on. Up to implies that at best you will get the speed listed. For instance, my DSL is up to 1.5M. A speed test gives me ~1.4M. At night, because of ISP issues, it can become below 1M. I am still within my speeds. This is what I agreed to up front.
I would very much like to see ISPs advertising speed tiers like 768k-1.5M, 1.5M-3.0M, 3.0M-6.0M, etc. And then once you hit below the bottom line they guarantee a truck roll to fix it. But then you get into SLAs, which anyone can purchase, but it comes with a price.
My only point is that the advertising is not misleading and it sets the proper expectations up front.
When an ISP advertises "Unlimited" and then caps and/or restricts, that is misleading advertising, and I think the government needs to act on these broken promises.
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| | | jp10558Premium
join:2005-06-24
Willseyville, NY | Re: What? The problem is that by your logic, I can sell you up to 1.5Mbps, and only ever give you 53Kbps (dial-up speed) and be perfectly fine (and making a boat load of money off new users for at least the first month + install fees).
If I call it broadband, I think I only have to offer 200Kbps, and I could advertise up to 100Mbit if I want, which again might get me a bunch of people for a month.
At what point it is a scam?
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| | | | MaxoYour tax dollars at work.Premium,VIP
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL | Re: What? said by jp10558:At what point it is a scam? That is a good question. My issue is not telling ISPs there is a reasonable limit they can undersell you the advertised bandwidth. My issue is that this is nothing like selling 20 ounces of soda. It's also not confusing when you are sold up to and get up to.
There are situations where the lowest package an ISP offers is something like 1.5M but their line can only handle 768kbps. In this case the only options are to put them on 768kbps or not offer them service.
So it's not as easy as saying if you advertise 1.5M you have to provide exactly 1.5M. It's also not as easy as saying you must provide 80% of that x amount of the time. It's a little more difficult than that.
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| | | | | | well like you said you would get a boat load of customers for the first month then get a horrible rep and lose your business, but i suppose if your in it for a quick buck... | |
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| | fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | "I would very much like to see ISPs advertising speed tiers like 768k-1.5M, 1.5M-3.0M, 3.0M-6.0M, etc."
SBC, AT&T, et all, have been doing that for years.
Cable does it as well.. it's 200kbps UP TO.. and on the upper tiers say a 5 and 8 tier, if you have the 8, your minimum has to be 5.
People just like to look at the max and forget the minimum ever exists.
Take driving.. if the maximum speed limit is 65, and there is a sign that says minimum speed is 40mph, how many people doing 40 get honked at for going too slow? (In case people don't know, states have a minimum speed, just some post it while others don't)
Greedy Americans love to get all they can all the time.
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| | The end of the article says it all: imagine a soda can that has "up to" 12 ounces of soda. | |
| | MaxoYour tax dollars at work.Premium,VIP
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL | Re: What? said by massysett:The end of the article says it all: imagine a soda can that has "up to" 12 ounces of soda. Buying Soda and buying internet service are two completely different things.
Imagine buying internet service that is made with corn syrup. | |
| | |  yockTFTCPremium
join:2000-11-21
Miamisburg, OH
kudos:3 | Re: What? said by Maxo:said by massysett:The end of the article says it all: imagine a soda can that has "up to" 12 ounces of soda. Buying Soda and buying internet service are two completely different things. Imagine buying internet service that is made with corn syrup. True, but it illustrates a point. If your ISP is able to charge you the same price as your neighbor, but only deliver 2/3rds of the service because of technical limitations, is that a fair pricing practice?
Other commodities are sold by weight. The volume of liquid in that soda can is measured meticulously. It must fall within a certain standard deviation of the listed volume, something regulated by government, before it is allowed to leave the factory. Products that do not conform to regulations are rejected and never leave the production facility.
No such quality control is regulated for your internet connection. If Comcast were delivering you cans of soda, they'd be perfectly within the law to put a few mere drops of soda in each of your cans and claim that you were only entitled to "up to 12 oz" of soda. The idea here is to enforce some quality control on that "up to" language so that there is some required minimum to claim a certain speed.
I'm the biggest proponent of deregulation I know, and I think this is a good idea.
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| | | | MaxoYour tax dollars at work.Premium,VIP
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL | Re: What? The problem with volume in something like soda and speeds from your ISP is that volume is easy to guarantee. There's no way an ISP could guarantee you will always get something like 1.5M because of fluctuations of the line.
If one wants to argue that ISPs should set some minimal limit, then that's fine with me. I do think we need to make sure we are not over regulating to the point that the government is requiring a full-fledged SLA. This would make the cost of residential service prohibitive.
Also, I think the arguments being given in the article that saying up to, and then delivering up to is somehow misleading. The only way to be misleading would be to advertise up to and then actually go above those speeds. Of course, nobody would get in a tizzy over that though.
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"Padre, nobody said war was fun now bowl!" - Sherman T Potter
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| | | | | yockTFTCPremium
join:2000-11-21
Miamisburg, OH
kudos:3 | Re: What? said by Maxo:The problem with volume in something like soda and speeds from your ISP is that volume is easy to guarantee. There's no way an ISP could guarantee you will always get something like 1.5M because of fluctuations of the line. If one wants to argue that ISPs should set some minimal limit, then that's fine with me. I do think we need to make sure we are not over regulating to the point that the government is requiring a full-fledged SLA. This would make the cost of residential service prohibitive. Also, I think the arguments being given in the article that saying up to, and then delivering up to is somehow misleading. The only way to be misleading would be to advertise up to and then actually go above those speeds. Of course, nobody would get in a tizzy over that though. I don't think we're talking about Service-Level Agreements for consumer subscribers, but rather some legal wording that doesn't permit ISPs from offering huge disparities in service to customers while selling it as the same product for the same price. We all understand that consumer-level services will suffer outages and reductions in quality, that isn't the issue here. They're really talking about the consistent inability to deliver on advertised capabilities of their products.
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Laughter is the closest distance between two people. --Victor Borge | |
| | | | | | MaxoYour tax dollars at work.Premium,VIP
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL | Re: What? said by yock:I don't think we're talking about Service-Level Agreements for consumer subscribers, but rather some legal wording that doesn't permit ISPs from offering huge disparities in service to customers while selling it as the same product for the same price. I think that is more reasonable. The problem here, then, is not the "up to" wording. That part is accurate. The confusion would be that a customer on an up to 6.0M plan would not reasonably expect consistent 768k speeds. OTOH, if they were getting 5.28M that's not unreasonable.
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"Padre, nobody said war was fun now bowl!" - Sherman T Potter
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| | | | | | | yockTFTCPremium
join:2000-11-21
Miamisburg, OH
kudos:3 | Re: What? said by Maxo:The confusion would be that a customer on an up to 6.0M plan would not reasonably expect consistent 768k speeds. OTOH, if they were getting 5.28M that's not unreasonable. Right, which makes the real numbers they come up with for the variances important. Getting service that's 15% below the advertised product is pretty reasonable, but the potential exists to see much higher numbers than that since there is no regulation stating otherwise, but more importantly, little to no competition keeping those ISPs honest.
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Wiki Wiki
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| | | openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
kudos:2 | said by yock:Other commodities are sold by weight. The volume of liquid in that soda can is measured meticulously........The idea here is to enforce some quality control on that "up to" language so that there is some required minimum to claim a certain speed. Be careful with what you're asking for. You might end up with an ISP connection that guarantees you 20 GB of xfer per month for your $49.99 (more may be available, but not guaranteed). People need to realize that you simply won't obtain a guaranteed speed bandwidth (the speed is just shy of the distance/time of light in a vacuum) given consumer prices. OTOH, guaranteeing bytes of data xfer per month, regardless of bandwidth available, is well within ISP's grasp for consumer connections, and more enforceable with a simple SLA. The hardcore users of BBR won't like that levy though  | |
| | | | | yockTFTCPremium
join:2000-11-21
Miamisburg, OH
kudos:3 | Re: What? said by openbox9:said by yock:Other commodities are sold by weight. The volume of liquid in that soda can is measured meticulously........The idea here is to enforce some quality control on that "up to" language so that there is some required minimum to claim a certain speed. Be careful with what you're asking for. You might end up with an ISP connection that guarantees you 20 GB of xfer per month for your $49.99 (more may be available, but not guaranteed). People need to realize that you simply won't obtain a guaranteed speed bandwidth (the speed is just shy of the distance/time of light in a vacuum) given consumer prices. OTOH, guaranteeing bytes of data xfer per month, regardless of bandwidth available, is well within ISP's grasp for consumer connections, and more enforceable with a simple SLA. The hardcore users of BBR won't like that levy though At that point I have enough information to make an informed decision as to whether or not I want to pay for their service. I'm perfectly willing to cancel my broadband internet connection if the ISP mandates unreasonable limits on my usage. The problem right now is that the information about your connection is clouded in secrecy. "Up to 6Mbps," "Unlimited with restrictions," all of this language they're permitted to use to sell you a product, but not held to when delivering service.
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| | |  Michieru2zzz zzz zzzPremium
join:2005-01-28
Miami, FL | So basically let's make a law "ISP that sells with the "up to" term must provide with at least 80% of what is on contract, failure to do so the customer is allowed to leave without any sort of fee due to cancellation of service and any other fee's that could apply."
I think that will solve the issue and move on to the next issue.
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The only limits we have are the one's we set ourselves. | |
| | | | | MaxoYour tax dollars at work.Premium,VIP
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL | Re: What? said by Michieru2:I think that will solve the issue and move on to the next issue. Which would be PTTC (Porn To The Curb.) | |
| | | | | | Michieru2zzz zzz zzzPremium
join:2005-01-28
Miami, FL | Re: What? Well....I guess we all know where you get your porn now don't we .
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The only limits we have are the one's we set ourselves. | |
| | | | | | | MaxoYour tax dollars at work.Premium,VIP
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL | Re: What? said by Michieru2:Well....I guess we all know where you get your porn now don't we . Well, I was thinking fiber connected boxes at each neighborhood node, but hookers work too. | |
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| |  dvd536as Mr. Pink as they comePremium
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ
kudos:4 | said by Maxo:said by massysett:The end of the article says it all: imagine a soda can that has "up to" 12 ounces of soda. Imagine buying internet service that is made with corn syrup. Ever heard of "earthlink"?
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You can never be too rich, too thin or have too much Bandwidth | |
| | | | MaxoYour tax dollars at work.Premium,VIP
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL | Re: What? I have Embarq. It's what I have after 6pm everyday. | |
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| | | If you buy a can of soda and it is not exactly 12 ounces you might not notice but if you buy a can of soda and it is half empty you notify the manufacture and guess what? You get a free 6 pack or half case. My wife does it 
If I pay for the 8 mbps speed tier then I feel I better not fall below the 6 mbps tier for the price I pay for the 8 mbps
which I do a lot. Check some of my speed test here and you'll see I get half what they say.Power and size= they can rip you off and call it what ever they want. You want to charge me more? Fine, then give me what I should be getting, if it's to much I will move to the lower tier for less, I'm already getting those lower speeds anyways. | |
| | | fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3
1 edit | Re: What? Well.. I will say this having been an early adopter of broadband service, and the first one ever in Sacramento to have DSL from PacBell, I can tell you what was said from the beginning.
Speed tests are not accepted from outside sources. Pacbell always said that a speed test other than directly from their servers would not count - to which I agree. They only guarantee speeds between you and them as they have no control over speeds anything beyond their CO.
As for cable, some have speed tests, others don't. If it were up to me, all ISPs would have to have a reliable speed test system in place that measures speed between you and them.
I don't ever trust a speed test, a download test, NOTHING, from just any site on the internet as all that can tell you is the speed between a point to point. (Take the speak easy speed test one location right after the other. I get speeds from 2mb up to 14mb at the same time and even then it can vary)
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"Wipe out the national deficit over night... Tax the stupid!" - about 50 gMail invites available. PM if you'd like one. | |
| | | | | | Re: What? I actually have to agree 100% with you on that. To me it's only a small test, not really even a test when I see it hang up a bit and still come back with a good test. I usually use like ping plotter or something and test more with Latency but I still like the tool from DSLReports speed test. Yes I agree a ISP should have a tool to test speed from you to the CO. In fact Verison and a couple other DSL providers do from what I read. | |
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| fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | said by massysett:The end of the article says it all: imagine a soda can that has "up to" 12 ounces of soda. and how many times do you get a back of chips, open it up and there is a small pile in the bottom. How many times have you or someone you know say "hey, this bag isn't full... what a rip!"... how many of those people do you have to tell to read the post on the bag that says "sold by weight, not by volume"... 
again, it's the laziness of Americans that don't want to take the time to understand what they are buying anymore. Broadband and networking isn't "simple" and people should stop treating it that way for god sakes. Everyone wants everything spoon fed to them these days because they are all too important to have to figure something out on their own.
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| | Tell ya what. How about if I advertise an internet service of "Up to" 250mbps, and just deliver 33.6kbps over dialup? I'll charge them $1500/month for such a great service, and it would be in no way misleading! | |
| | MaxoYour tax dollars at work.Premium,VIP
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL | Re: What? said by AnonShawUser:Tell ya what. How about if I advertise an internet service of "Up to" 250mbps, and just deliver 33.6kbps over dialup? I'll charge them $1500/month for such a great service, and it would be in no way misleading! No, you would just go out of business. | |
| | | | | Re: What? said by Maxo:said by AnonShawUser:Tell ya what. How about if I advertise an internet service of "Up to" 250mbps, and just deliver 33.6kbps over dialup? I'll charge them $1500/month for such a great service, and it would be in no way misleading! No, you would just go out of business. Not if you are the only game in town. | |
| | | | | | | | MaxoYour tax dollars at work.Premium,VIP
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL | said by moonpuppy:said by Maxo:said by AnonShawUser:Tell ya what. How about if I advertise an internet service of "Up to" 250mbps, and just deliver 33.6kbps over dialup? I'll charge them $1500/month for such a great service, and it would be in no way misleading! No, you would just go out of business. Not if you are the only game in town. Yes you would, because even if dial-up wasn't availabe, nobody is going to pay $1500/month for 33.6kbps. If you were the only game in town offering 6.0M people still wouldn't pay those prices. So you would be out of business.
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"Padre, nobody said war was fun now bowl!" - Sherman T Potter
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| | | | | | | Re: What? You miss the point. People would be willing to pay $1500/month for a service advertised as "Up to" 250mbps, with no service caps. Just like people are willing to pay $80/month for service "up to" 10mbps, when they're only getting 5 or 6mbps.
The whole "up to" thing means they don't even have to make it seem reasonable. And in that first month, when a few dozen consumers sign up, thinking they're going to get such insane speeds, only to be getting dialup levels, just means the provider was in the right.
Right now, every provider in the nation, regardless of whether it's dialup or fiber, can claim they have "up to" 1gbps, full duplex to the home, on every connection. And it would be true. | |
| | | | | | MaxoYour tax dollars at work.Premium,VIP
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL | Re: What? said by AnonShawUser:Right now, every provider in the nation, regardless of whether it's dialup or fiber, can claim they have "up to" 1gbps, full duplex to the home, on every connection. And it would be true. But they don't because it would be bad business sense. Nobody builds a business off of pissing off their customer's up front. | |
| | | | | | | | | Re: What? You've never heard of all those repeat scam artists, have you? They make a point of making outlandish claims, only to turn around and take the money and run. It's how they do their "business" and even if they're caught, they usually get away with it.
And, when there's no other game in town, such a claim is likely to draw a lot of attention and a lot of hopeful customers, who end up paying through their teeth, to take it up their arse. | |
| | | | | | | | MaxoYour tax dollars at work.Premium,VIP
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL | Re: What? Give me an example of an ISP successfully pulling this off. Also, explain to me how a law is going to stop someone from running a scam. Scams are already illegal, so this doesn't add anything new in that respect. | |
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