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aztecnology
O Rly?
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join:2003-02-12
Murrieta, CA
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reply to 81399672
Re: Home Values going down the toliet?

Literally, every time I click on a new link...

Foreclosures May Hit 1.5 Million in U.S. Housing Bust

By Bob Ivry

March 12 (Bloomberg) -- Hold on to your assets. The deepest housing decline in 16 years is about to get worse.

"As many as 1.5 million more Americans may lose their homes, another 100,000 people in housing-related industries could be fired, and an estimated 100 additional subprime mortgage companies that lend money to people with bad or limited credit may go under, according to realtors, economists, analysts and a Federal Reserve governor. Financial stocks also could extend their declines over mortgage default worries".

This article is a must read...
--
"Independent thinkers tend to ALWAYS have someone not agreeing with them. It's The non-thinkers that always come in legions." John Callari .:|:. Say no to the IRS Yes to the Fair Tax


81399672
Premium
join:2006-05-17
Los Angeles, CA

Each one of us can post links that are shows what we want it to be showing. Lets wait till summer to see what happens to the market. Yes foreclosure may be high but what will happen to the prices is the million dollars question
--
i am not a lawyer but I do play one on tv


dogma
Premium
join:2002-08-15
Boulder City, NV
How long ago did you buy your house? The one with 700 sprinklers?


81399672
Premium
join:2006-05-17
Los Angeles, CA
late 2002(november 1 to be exact)


aztecnology
O Rly?
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Murrieta, CA
·Verizon FIOS

reply to 81399672
said by 81399672 See Profile :

Each one of us can post links that are shows what we want it to be showing. Lets wait till summer to see what happens to the market. Yes foreclosure may be high but what will happen to the prices is the million dollars question
First you said wait til Feb's #'s come out, now you want to wait til summer...

You're lucky in that you bought nearly 5 years ago, hopefully you left your equity in tact
--
"Independent thinkers tend to ALWAYS have someone not agreeing with them. It's The non-thinkers that always come in legions." John Callari .:|:. Say no to the IRS Yes to the Fair Tax


CurtesyFlush
Bababooey, fafafooey, tatatoothy.
Premium
join:2002-08-23
Fontana, CA
reply to 81399672
I still maintain your parents bought it.
--
Life Member, NRA and CRPA.


dogma
Premium
join:2002-08-15
Boulder City, NV

reply to 81399672
You should be OK and in good shape. But don't be surprised if/when the value comes back down to about what you paid for it.

Values are determined by market demand. About $1.2 Trillion in Mortgage ARM rates will adjust up this year. This will affect almost all people who have purchased in the past 2-3 years. Not just the Subprime borrowers, but the Alt-A's, and A-Paper folks as well. Just because one has a high FICO/Good credit, does not necessarily translate to being able to afford a $6000/Mo house note on a $850K Mar Vista Condo or Van Nuys fixer-upper. I am seeing short-sales already...and these are the smart people.

What I think is even more important than the impending total collapse of the housing market/home building industry/RE Finance industry & secondary Mortgage Markets, is how this will play out on the economy in general.

Forget the people who bought well beyond their means, what about all the people who "pulled equity out" in the form of refinancing(s) to subsidize their life style on Front Street? When you see the used car lots spilling over with '06 Escalades, A8 Audi's and those year old 6 & 7 series BMW's...look out.


jinjimbob
Troy Mcclure

join:2001-11-13

reply to dogma
The population is growing at a huge rate, people are being born and moving here in droves.

The demand is still there. A 3% decline in the national average house price means nothing, especially when most people can't even dream of buying a $200k house, they don't exist in populated areas.

I know people here want the prices to drop 40% so that they can afford one, but this won't happen, sorry.


dogma
Premium
join:2002-08-15
Boulder City, NV

said by jinjimbob See Profile :

The population is growing at a huge rate, people are being born and moving here in droves.

The demand is still there. A 3% decline in the national average house price means nothing, especially when most people can't even dream of buying a $200k house, they don't exist in populated areas.

I know people here want the prices to drop 40% so that they can afford one, but this won't happen, sorry.
A. What % of this "massive" population growth is domestic and earning mid-six figures?

B. The demand and the "resources" are two different things. The market is forcing a change in the "resources", thereby cutting the "demand" off at the knees.

C. 40% drop in home prices impossible? Keep listening to the "Real Estate Experts". History is not on your side.


No_Strings
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The OC

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reply to dogma
said by dogma See Profile :

Forget the people who bought well beyond their means, what about all the people who "pulled equity out" in the form of refinancing(s) to subsidize their life style on Front Street? When you see the used car lots spilling over with '06 Escalades, A8 Audi's and those year old 6 & 7 series BMW's...look out.
I have never understood someone pulling money out of a house to buy a car, TV or other nicety. Home improvement projects may make sense - you're speculating on an investment and that your improvement will produce a return. Otherwise, it makes as much sense as borrowing against the value of a stock to buy another stock. It's not an invalid approach; I just don't have the stomach for it.


FutureMon
OW My Eyes
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Colorado Springs, CO
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reply to aztecnology
I purchased my home in june of 1995 for a whopping $189k.

After several refinancings for various reasons (credit consolidation, divorce, etc) I now owe over $500k on the thing and I'm essentially no further into my original 30 year loan than I was the day I bought it.

And I'm refinancing again because I'm poor at managing money. The only thing going for me at this time is that it's value is currently somewhere between $650-700k.

Even if the values drop in some drastic event, there should still be an annual steady climb of around 3% so those who keep their homes for the long term will eventually see their equity build.

- FM
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aztecnology
O Rly?
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join:2003-02-12
Murrieta, CA
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said by FutureMon See Profile :

Even if the values drop in some drastic event, there should still be an annual steady climb of around 3% so those who keep their homes for the long term will eventually see their equity build.

- FM
When you factor in inflation, where are you...?

Sure, time is on your side if you remain in the house long term but as you can attest to, life happens...
--
"Independent thinkers tend to ALWAYS have someone not agreeing with them. It's The non-thinkers that always come in legions." John Callari .:|:. Say no to the IRS Yes to the Fair Tax


dogma
Premium
join:2002-08-15
Boulder City, NV

reply to No_Strings
said by No_Strings See Profile :

said by dogma See Profile :

Forget the people who bought well beyond their means, what about all the people who "pulled equity out" in the form of refinancing(s) to subsidize their life style on Front Street? When you see the used car lots spilling over with '06 Escalades, A8 Audi's and those year old 6 & 7 series BMW's...look out.
I have never understood someone pulling money out of a house to buy a car, TV or other nicety. Home improvement projects may make sense ...
A lot of people I know consider a 71" Plasma a "home improvement", and since a Lexus LS460, Infinity QX56 and various and sundry Ski Doo's all fit in the garage, they too are "home improvements".

said by FutureMon See Profile :

I purchased my home in june of 1995 for a whopping $189k.

After several refinancings for various reasons (credit consolidation, divorce, etc) I now owe over $500k on the thing and I'm essentially no further into my original 30 year loan than I was the day I bought it.

And I'm refinancing again because I'm poor at managing money. The only thing going for me at this time is that it's value is currently somewhere between $650-700k.

Even if the values drop in some drastic event, there should still be an annual steady climb of around 3% so those who keep their homes for the long term will eventually see their equity build.

- FM
As long as you can comfortably afford the mortgage, your ok. Over time, and it may be a loooong time, it will appreciate. But take it from me, that "poor money management" thing will catch up with you.

Amazon this: Andy Tobias . The title is totally misleading, and it hasn't been updated in a while, so when you see the words "stock market", simply mentally replace them with "Home Equity". But otherwise, it helped change my thinking.


No_Strings
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dogma See Profile,

Your comment about alt-a lending pressures reminded me that I had read about that just yesterday. Took me until now to remember where I'd seen it.

Alt-A Mortgage Losses Accelerate, Threatening MBS - Study

Mar 13, 2007 14:43:33 (ET)

Losses on so-called Alt-A home loans are accelerating and could hit the value of lower-rated portions of some mortgage-backed securities, according to a study released Tuesday.

Alt-A loans are considered less risky than subprime mortgages, but usually have lower credit quality than "prime" loans. Companies such as IndyMac Bancorp Inc. (NDE), Impac Mortgage Holdings Inc. (IMH) and Countrywide Financial Corp. (CFC) offer them.

Delinquencies have jumped on Alt-A mortgages originated last year with adjustable interest rates that let borrowers pay only the interest for a time.

These loans, known as Alt-A ARM IOs, have seen a fourfold increase in delinquencies of at least 60 days, four times the level of similar loans originated in 2003 and 2004, according to the study by David Liu, head of mortgage credit research at UBS, and LoanPerformance, a division of real estate data firm First American.

This "alarming" deterioration could have dire consequences for some investors in the BBB- rated parts of mortgage-backed securities (MBS) that contain these types of loans, but the market hasn't priced these risks in yet, Liu warned.

Losses "could potentially wipe out most of the credit support on BBB- rated bonds backed by Alt-A hybrids," Liu wrote. "And yet we have not seen any spread movements that suggest investors are taking this into consideration."

Liu's study, which used LoanPerformance data from the end of January, is based on the housing market remaining relatively flat over the next few years.

"If house prices fall over the next few years, everything in this scenario will be much worst," he said in an interview.

Alt-A loans were originally designed for borrowers with clean credit records, but with other issues that often meant they provided fewer documents or even no documents showing what they earned. These loans were attractive to investors in mortgage-backed securities because they offered higher yields than traditional "prime" home loans, but were underpinned by the cleaner credit records of the borrowers.

The popularity of Alt-A mortgages exploded in recent years. A record $400 billion of these loans were originated in 2006. They accounted for 13.4% of all mortgages offered last year, up from 2.1% in 2003, according to industry publisher Inside Mortgage Finance.

But as the Alt-A business grew, more of these loans were offered to less creditworthy borrowers and the products became more exotic.

"The Alt-A sector is the poster child for the past decade's tremendous growth and drastic evolution in the mortgage market," Liu wrote in the LoanPerformance study.

Alt-A ARM IO loans have "taken the leading role within continuously expanding borrower leverage in the runaway housing market," he added.

Three quarters of all Alt-A loans originated in 2006 were innovative mortgages such as interest-only loans and option ARMs, he noted.

As ARM IO mortgages took over as one of the dominant ARM products, the performance of these loans deteriorated rapidly, Liu said.

The main reason is that the housing market is much weaker than it was a few years ago and interest rates are much higher, Liu explained. "On top of that, underwriting standards were looser recently," he added.

The deterioration is "alarming" for investors in lower-rated bonds that are backed by these loans, Liu said.

Mortgage loans are usually packaged together and sold as mortgage-backed securities to institutions such as pension funds, insurers and hedge funds.

They are sliced up into different sections, known as tranches. Higher quality tranches pay lower interest rates, but are less likely to experience losses. Lower-rated slices, rated BBB- and BBB, yield more, but are the first to get hit when losses occur in the underlying mortgages.

An extra chunk of cash is included in MBS - called credit support or enhancement - that protects investors against a certain level of losses.

Liu's study suggests that losses in Alt-A ARM IO mortgages could wipe out the credit support on BBB- rated tranches of some MBS.

"There is a 34% probability that the entire BBB- tranche might get wiped out," he wrote. "Similarly, there is a 17% probability that cumulative losses reach 300 basis points, which could make BBB bonds appear on the endangered species list."

If the housing market remains flat or turns negative for a prolonged period, losses could rise further, "which will wipe out credit support of BBB bonds on these deals," he added.

If credit support on these tranches is erased, investors would still have access to the income. But Liu warned that they would likely be downgraded by credit rating agencies anyway, cutting their value.

There are a lot of moving parts in these projections, Liu said, noting that the analysis is "relatively crude."

"Even so, we believe our results are very powerful and are not currently reflected in the market," he concluded.

-By Alistair Barr; 415-439-6400; AskNewswires@dowjones.com


jig

join:2001-01-05
Hacienda Heights, CA

reply to dogma
it'll be a great market if you have cash lying around and some reasonable buying skills. a perfect time to time the market, kinda like stocks in the mid 90s.
--
A man compounded of law and gospel is able to cheat a whole country with his religion and then destroy them under color of law. -Ben Franklin


dogma
Premium
join:2002-08-15
Boulder City, NV


1 edit
Ya got that right...speaking of a perfect time:

I got back from lunch to see the market down 247 points.

said by Holy Sheep Shit Batman :
Accredited (Nasdaq:LEND - news), based in San Diego, said it needed to raise money after paying $190 million demanded by its lenders, is cutting an unspecified number of jobs, and is exploring "strategic options," including raising new capital.

Irvine, California-based New Century (Other OTC:NEWC - news), meanwhile, had trading in its shares suspended by the
New York Stock Exchange prior to delisting and received a grand jury subpoena in a federal criminal probe. On Monday, the real estate investment trust had said it did not have enough cash to repay its own lenders.

Edit: Looks like this is taking down GMAC as well:
DETROIT (Reuters) - General Motors Acceptance Corp., the former finance arm of General Motors Corp. (NYSE:GM - news), on Tuesday said it would receive another $1 billion from GM and warned it would be hit by pressure from a weakening market for U.S. mortgages.

GMAC said GM would transfer about $1 billion to the finance company in the form of common equity by the end of the first quarter to shore up its balance sheet under the terms of its sale to a group led by Cerberus Capital Management.

Feldstein said GMAC was tightening its underwriting standards for mortgages to borrowers with weaker credit and taking more aggressive steps to address delinquent loans.

Problems in the subprime mortgage sector, which involves loans to riskier borrowers, have emerged as a major risk factor for the U.S. financial markets in recent weeks.


Looks like the subprime meltdown is going faster than even I (or aztecnology) predicted. Alt-A is next, then A-Paper backed securities. Credit will be tighter than a (insert flagrantly hostile sexist remark here). When credit tightens up, almost no one will be qualified to borrow at competitive rates. If nobody can borrow, nobody can buy. If nobody can buy, I may just restate my prediction of a 40% drop in home values to...perhaps 60%?

A lot of people will be left holding the bag like Randolph & Mortimer Duke at the end of the movie Trading Places. This upcoming recession may be a mother.


81399672
Premium
join:2006-05-17
Los Angeles, CA
you're just praying that prices go down so you can buy a house. You do realize that 247 is not a big number at al
--
i am not a lawyer but I do play one on tv


dogma
Premium
join:2002-08-15
Boulder City, NV

said by 81399672 See Profile :

you're just praying that prices go down so you can buy a house. You do realize that 247 is not a big number at al
Sorry, wrong answer. I bought my house back in 1994 (at the bottom of the last RE fiasco). Only refi'd to cut the interest rate and term. 6.5 more years of mortgage payments for me. On this one.

You are correct, -247 isn't big by itself. Last Months -500 drop wasn't big by itself either. Look closely at the volume during the last hour of trading today. Lets see waht happens over the next 3 Months.

I don't need to pray for prices to go down. Just need to wait.


aztecnology
O Rly?
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Murrieta, CA
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reply to 81399672
said by 81399672 See Profile :

you're just praying that prices go down so you can buy a house. You do realize that 247 is not a big number at al
You should also realize that having housing prices double in a 5 year period isn't normal either.

There's no need to pray, prices in many areas are teetering at late 2004 prices right now. Not to mention all the short sales out there - house about 1/2 mile from me sold last spring for $630k, NOD in October, and REO now for $550k...

The people who need to be praying are not the ones waiting for prices to come down...
--
"Independent thinkers tend to ALWAYS have someone not agreeing with them. It's The non-thinkers that always come in legions." John Callari .:|:. Say no to the IRS Yes to the Fair Tax


AR
Premium,ExMod 2001-04
join:2000-09-21
Toronto, ON
·Rogers Hi-Speed

reply to HappyBunny
said by HappyBunny See Profile :

I am just biding my time and then will buy my first home...
Followed my way in here from the Pub...

Is that a good thing? Waiting for the crash? Because I imagine a RE crash will translate into recession and hit the job sector - across different industries.
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