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The ethics of "Photoshopping" Real Estate Listings.

»matrix.millersamuel.com/?p=1102

bobrk
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Re: The ethics of "Photoshopping" Real Estate Listings.

UNETHICAL.

xx
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It comes down to false advertising.

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I have had listing agencies hire me and then want me to do editing, and I flat out told them no. Not only is it unethical, it's illegal. It's falsely representing the property. The only editing I do to architecture is:

1) Adjust white balance so it's accurate
2) Adjust for perspective
3) Sharpen
4) Nudge the curves if needed to bring the tonality to normal.
5) Clone out or patch heal my flash if it's reflected in a window

Nothing beyond that. I've actually had them ask me to clone out damage to surfaces, "transplant" trees, add foliage, etc. I refuse to do it.
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1 edit

Re: The ethics of "Photoshopping" Real Estate Listings.

said by B52GUNR See Profile :

... I've actually had them ask me to clone out damage to surfaces, "transplant" trees, add foliage, etc. I refuse to do it.
Well done - significant damage, presence of towers, wires, dumps, landscaping and trees would be likely be considered of significant value.

If the property is acquired on the basis of seller/agent supplied altered photographs that add trees, landscaping etc or remove the cell phone tower behind the house, a buyer could have a good case for misrepresentation of material fact in a suit, since these things would affect the value of the house. An aggressive lawyer would likely sue everybody in the chain, including the realtor, his/her company and you. You wouldn't likely be held liable, but would still burn time and money defending yourself, or have to burn a claim with your professional liability insurer, if you have one.

I suppose you could add a clause in your contract where your customer acknowledges the photograph(s) is altered, assumes all liability in the use of the photograph,specifically releases you from any claims of damage in its(their) use and agrees to pay you all costs you may incur in any litigation.
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Re: The ethics of "Photoshopping" Real Estate Listings.

said by EGeezer See Profile :

I suppose you could add a clause in your contract where your customer acknowledges the photograph(s) is altered, assumes all liability in the use of the photograph,specifically releases you from any claims of damage in its(their) use and agrees to pay you all costs you may incur in any litigation.
I have just such a clause, it states: "Studio is not to be held liable for any damages caused by alterations to the photographs by persons outside of the studio's control. Additionally, alterations shall not be performed that cause the studio's business reputation to be harmed."
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35375105
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Dunno depends on how it is intended. Like for instance if they photoshopped the power lines out to get a clearer view of the property itself, then I don't really think it's unethical.

But if they photoshopped the powerlines out because they don't want the buyer to know it's there, then yes that is very unethical.
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Re: The ethics of "Photoshopping" Real Estate Listings.

said by 35375105 See Profile :

Dunno depends on how it is intended. Like for instance if they photoshopped the power lines out to get a clearer view of the property itself, then I don't really think it's unethical.

But if they photoshopped the powerlines out because they don't want the buyer to know it's there, then yes that is very unethical.
No matter how you slice it, that's still mis-representing the property. Now, I will of course shoot something from the best possible angle (which means I'll have the powerlines behind me or out of the frame), but if I can't the angle that I can achieve that and the unwanted feature has to remain in the frame, it stays in the frame, at least when I send it to them.
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bobrk
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Re: The ethics of "Photoshopping" Real Estate Listings.

If I was a Realtor, I'd be scared as shit about this. People will sue at the drop of a hat, which means real money to a real estate office.

Mauricio9
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1 edit
said by 35375105 See Profile :

But if they photoshopped the powerlines out because they don't want the buyer to know it's there, then yes that is very unethical.
If you can't get a clearer view without the power lines by walking around or changing lenses, then the clearer view does not exist. Part of the value of the property is determined by how it looks from outside, power lines and all. If after putting on your superwide angle you still can't get a view without the power lines, then it means that they are going to be in your field of view no matter where you stand. Photoshopping them out amounts to misrepresentation.

Edit: what he said!
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quatrix
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Re: The ethics of "Photoshopping" Real Estate Listings.

said by Mauricio9 See Profile :

If you can't get a clearer view without the power lines by walking around or changing lenses, then the clearer view does not exist. Part of the value of the property is determined by how it looks from outside, power lines and all. If after putting on your superwide angle you still can't get a view without the power lines, then it means that they are going to be in your field of view no matter where you stand.
How is that any different? Whether you take the photo from a different angle, stand with the wires behind you, or edit the finished photo, you're still consciously trying to deceive people.

Mauricio9
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Re: The ethics of "Photoshopping" Real Estate Listings.

said by quatrix See Profile :

said by Mauricio9 See Profile :

If you can't get a clearer view without the power lines by walking around or changing lenses, then the clearer view does not exist. Part of the value of the property is determined by how it looks from outside, power lines and all. If after putting on your superwide angle you still can't get a view without the power lines, then it means that they are going to be in your field of view no matter where you stand.
How is that any different? Whether you take the photo from a different angle, stand with the wires behind you, or edit the finished photo, you're still consciously trying to deceive people.
If you can get a shot without the powerlines, that implies that there is a perspective from where the view of the house is unobstructed. If you can't and photoshop them out, you imply there is a perspective from where the view of the house is unobstructed when in reality there isn't. That is very different in my book.
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TJ19971
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Seems to me that it would be unethical and misleading.

Good for you B52GUNR See Profile for standing firm to your beliefs, unfortunately not everyone would or does.
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I saw a listing for a condo nearby - I'm very familiar with what the exterior looks like, and more importantly, what it's situated next to, which is a giant parking deck. The photo in the listing had no parking deck.

Not photoshop magic, they just used an old photo. Same idea though, and I thought that was particularly cheezy of the agent to misrepresent something like a 4-story parking deck next to a 3-story building.

If I were making any kind of substantial trip to come see the place, I'd be pretty upset.

jjoshua
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Is it unethical for you to photoshop as per your customers' requests? I don't think so.

Is it unethical for the realtor to misrepresent a property or not to say that an image has been modified? Yes.

Mauricio9
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Re: The ethics of "Photoshopping" Real Estate Listings.

said by jjoshua See Profile :

Is it unethical for you to photoshop as per your customers' requests? I don't think so.

Is it unethical for the realtor to misrepresent a property or not to say that an image has been modified? Yes.
I think you are confusing 'unethical' with 'illegal.' While it is not illegal to photoshop on a customer's request, it is unethical to do so if you know that your work will be used to mislead other people. For a realtor to misrepresent a property is both unethical and illegal.
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Re: The ethics of "Photoshopping" Real Estate Listings.

said by Mauricio9 See Profile :

said by jjoshua See Profile :

Is it unethical for you to photoshop as per your customers' requests? I don't think so.

Is it unethical for the realtor to misrepresent a property or not to say that an image has been modified? Yes.
I think you are confusing 'unethical' with 'illegal.' While it is not illegal to photoshop on a customer's request, it is unethical to do so if you know that your work will be used to mislead other people. For a realtor to misrepresent a property is both unethical and illegal.
So compare this with the videos showing how models can be enhanced before they go onto the cover of a fashion magazine. We are all amazed by those videos and the end results and wish that we had those kinds of skills.

Same thing, right? Still unethical?

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Re: The ethics of "Photoshopping" Real Estate Listings.

said by jjoshua See Profile :

So compare this with the videos showing how models can be enhanced before they go onto the cover of a fashion magazine. We are all amazed by those videos and the end results and wish that we had those kinds of skills.

Same thing, right? Still unethical?
I think it needs to be criminal, to be honest. We have young girls trying to look like these models at great risk to their health and the models don't even look like how they are portrayed. I think it's not only unethical, but disgusting.
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Re: The ethics of "Photoshopping" Real Estate Listings.

said by B52GUNR See Profile :

I think it needs to be criminal, to be honest. We have young girls trying to look like these models at great risk to their health and the models don't even look like how they are portrayed. I think it's not only unethical, but disgusting.
»www.metacafe.com/watch/268634/mo···otoshop/

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Re: The ethics of "Photoshopping" Real Estate Listings.

That's exactly what I'm talking about.

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said by jjoshua See Profile :

said by Mauricio9 See Profile :

said by jjoshua See Profile :

Is it unethical for you to photoshop as per your customers' requests? I don't think so.

Is it unethical for the realtor to misrepresent a property or not to say that an image has been modified? Yes.
I think you are confusing 'unethical' with 'illegal.' While it is not illegal to photoshop on a customer's request, it is unethical to do so if you know that your work will be used to mislead other people. For a realtor to misrepresent a property is both unethical and illegal.
So compare this with the videos showing how models can be enhanced before they go onto the cover of a fashion magazine. We are all amazed by those videos and the end results and wish that we had those kinds of skills.

Same thing, right? Still unethical?
No, one is an entertainment, and the other is a representation of real property for sale. Hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars will be shoveled around in wheelbarrows for many months by many people with a lot on the line. It's way different.
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Re: The ethics of "Photoshopping" Real Estate Listings.

said by bobrk See Profile :

No, one is an entertainment, and the other is a representation of real property for sale. Hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars will be shoveled around in wheelbarrows for many months by many people with a lot on the line. It's way different.
So ethical vs. unethical depends on the $ amount? Ouch.

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Re: The ethics of "Photoshopping" Real Estate Listings.

said by jjoshua See Profile :

said by bobrk See Profile :

No, one is an entertainment, and the other is a representation of real property for sale. Hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars will be shoveled around in wheelbarrows for many months by many people with a lot on the line. It's way different.
So ethical vs. unethical depends on the $ amount? Ouch.
Although that may practically be the case for many people, it's actually a legal issue. You can debate whether civil suits are about the money or not.
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Re: The ethics of "Photoshopping" Real Estate Listings.

My wife and I are Realtors and I do all the photos for our listings as well as the visual tours. First of all let me make a blanket statement, photographic misrepresentation is wrong and will likely land you in court eventually. That said, no one (in my experience) buys a house over the internet without seeing it. I photoshop many of the pictures I take but only to correct my shortcomings as a photographer. I never edit to change what the potential buyer will be buying. I don't put trees or grass where there is none but I might make the toys in the backyard go away.

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Re: The ethics of "Photoshopping" Real Estate Listings.

said by pete424 See Profile :

I don't put trees or grass where there is none but I might make the toys in the backyard go away.
Then legally you have moved from a photograph of the property to a representation of the property.

Wayne
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Re: The ethics of "Photoshopping" Real Estate Listings.

said by Splitpair See Profile :

said by pete424 See Profile :

I don't put trees or grass where there is none but I might make the toys in the backyard go away.
Then legally you have moved from a photograph of the property to a representation of the property.

Wayne
I'd have to disagree. The toys, assuming that they're transient items, would not be a problem to remove via retouch. Replacing them with a hot tub would be a problem, though.
In other words, removing a temporary imperfection should be permitted; altering a permanent installation is pure deception.
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Re: The ethics of "Photoshopping" Real Estate Listings.

reminds me of those carfax commercials for some reason. or my friend photochoping his car on autotrader.

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Once one moves from how something looks to how it could look ones goes from a photograph to a representation. Clean up the toys green up the grass make the walls look brighter all or any of it alters the actuality of what is there and changes it to something that could be there.

It is like altering a news photo to give the shot an edge it works but is a fraud played in the viewer and lowers the validity of all such shots.

Wayne
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I don't see a problem with small aesthetic alterations to a photo of property for sale. We're not talking about Ebay items here - the buyer does not buy property without seeing it in person! The prospective buyer often sees it several times before closing on a purchase. So what if somebody cloned out some power lines to make the MLS photo look more attractive - the power lines will be there when the prospective buyers are shown the property. If they present a problem to the buyer, they won't buy. It's no more deceptive than taking a photo of a house on a (rare) sunny day in Seattle showing Mount Rainier in the background knowing full well that is a seldom seen sight.
The MLS photos are intended for potential buyers to get a very general sense of the place and to persuade them to come take a look... that's all. If somebody were to purchase a property based on an MLS photo alone - then they deserve what they get.

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said by Splitpair See Profile :

said by pete424 See Profile :

I don't put trees or grass where there is none but I might make the toys in the backyard go away.
Then legally you have moved from a photograph of the property to a representation of the property.

Wayne
Removing incidental items that would not be present on the property once you take ownership isn't at all a misrepresentation.
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said by jjoshua See Profile :

[So ethical vs. unethical depends on the $ amount? Ouch.
No. You are not buying the models that appear in ads.
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Re: The ethics of "Photoshopping" Real Estate Listings.

said by Mauricio9 See Profile :

said by jjoshua See Profile :

[So ethical vs. unethical depends on the $ amount? Ouch.
No. You are not buying the models that appear in ads.
How about if the person uses the photo for an on-line dating service? Then it becomes unethical?

Mauricio9
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Re: The ethics of "Photoshopping" Real Estate Listings.

said by jjoshua See Profile :

said by Mauricio9 See Profile :

said by jjoshua See Profile :

[So ethical vs. unethical depends on the $ amount? Ouch.
No. You are not buying the models that appear in ads.
How about if the person uses the photo for an on-line dating service? Then it becomes unethical?
Yes. Not illegal though.
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Re: The ethics of "Photoshopping" Real Estate Listings.

said by Mauricio9 See Profile :

Yes. Not illegal though.
So it's the photoshopper's responsibility to determine how the image will be used and to make an ethical decision about taking every job and which enhancements can be done?

"So, you want those blemishes retouched? Ok, are you going to use this image in a magazine? What kind of magazine? How about for posting on jdate?"

Sure...

Let's say a homeowner wants powerlines removed from a picture so they can brag to their friends about what a nice house they have? Now is it unethical?

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Re: The ethics of "Photoshopping" Real Estate Listings.

said by jjoshua See Profile :

Let's say a homeowner wants powerlines removed from a picture so they can brag to their friends about what a nice house they have? Now is it unethical?
It's still deceitful, but it's the OWNER of the house not the SELLER who's making the change. Let's say, for example, he has a ridiculous amount of money and he wants to bury the power lines. He has an image taken and the power lines removed digitally and uses that as part of his proposal to do the work. That's perfectly okay as then it's been used as an artistic rendering of what it could look like. If he has it done just to show his friends, well, he'll be pretty embarrassed when said friends come to visit and ask, "Hey, where did those power lines come from?" At least, I would be . Is it unethical in the strictest since of the word to deceive one's friends like that, I suppose so, but the only thing at risk of being harmed is the owner's reputation and ego.

Also, Mauricio, in CA anything that can be a negative impact on property value has to be fully disclosed. In our disclosure it said, "At one point in time, lead paint was used in this house". It was required by law.
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said by jjoshua See Profile :

So it's the photoshopper's responsibility to determine how the image will be used and to make an ethical decision about taking every job and which enhancements can be done?
No. However, if my client says "could you please remove those powerlines so my listing would attract more sellers" then I would walk away from it. If I am engaged to take pictures for a real estate listing, I know beforehand what is it for.

Let's see if an extreme analogy helps put this into perspective. Many German nuclear scientists during World War II left Germany or deliberately slowed down their work once they understood how their research could be used to build a nuclear bomb. Was it their responsibility to determine what their funny-moustached "customer" wanted to use their work for? Would it have been "unethical" to continue purely abstract science?
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Re: The ethics of "Photoshopping" Real Estate Listings.

said by Mauricio9 See Profile :

Let's see if an extreme analogy helps put this into perspective. Many German nuclear scientists during World War II left Germany or deliberately slowed down their work once they understood how their research could be used to build a nuclear bomb. Was it their responsibility to determine what their funny-moustached "customer" wanted to use their work for? Would it have been "unethical" to continue purely abstract science?
Call the analogy police... Let's not confuse ethics with morals.

A lawyer can ethically represent a murderer even though, morally, murder is wrong.



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1 edit
AS a person who grew up with the "BARBIE IDEAL" hammered into my head all my life, I will say that I applaud Jamie Lee Curtis who a couple of years ago did a photo shoot and FORBADE them from touching up ANYTHING.

On a similar note. The original photog for Cindy Crawford's headshots wanted to airbrush out her mole, as did Cristie Brinkley's daughter's photog.
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Yep. I think I brought this topic up some time ago. Where do you draw the line? I say that "faking" news and sales photos goes TOO FAR!!

When I was looking for a house, we checked a Condo add and liked the building, layout, floorplans, etc. We trek over to see it in person and the next lot down was "low income" housing!! WTF!! This was not only REMOVED from their brochure but from the pics as well. Needless to say we walked out and several others there to view as well.

I've had guys approach us to have their cars featured on our site but they have body damage, etc. They say, "you can just edit that out right?" I say HELL NO! We will not fraud our readers. If your car isn't spotless, don't bring it.
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I used to work with realtors on a daily basis... this was before digital cameras were really any good and before PS was in use by the "masses".

When warranted, pro photographers would be hired to get shots that could be used in magazines, etc. I don't believe any of them ever really "doctored" the captured images BUT they would do a LOT with custom lighting, reflectors, etc on site.

It's a fine line. As the article says, most buyers (I'm sure) see the property in person before signing a contract.... or they have a proxy do it (home inspector, etc).
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Is it deceptive and unethical? Yes of course.
Does it happen more than most would think? Yes
Would I do it if asked? Short of cloning out date stamps that someone left on the image, no.
Is it also the responsibility of the buyer to do their due diligence before buying? Absolutely. That's what the the due diligence period is for in real estate.

I've done apartment renting on line as well as looking for a home. The images might be what first attracts my attention, but until I look at something in person, I'm not going to sign a contract.
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I have to agree with Gizmo2002 that to do one's due diligence is a required part of a purchase, especially a home. However, on that same note, many homes are purchased through the Internet these days, some of them without ever being seen. These people cannot and do not actually see the property and have to rely upon a picture and a Realtor, who perhaps isn't seeing the property the same way that the buyer is. Would taking something out be any better than cloning in a several million dollar property next door when it's actually HUD housing? I don't think so. I really believe that nothing should be taken out or put in when advertising. If either is done, it's not only unethical to me but also probably illegal in many States and places. If it's worth the $$$, leave it alone and let it sell on its own.
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ric b

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If anyone follows the linked page to the original article via another link, it appears as though the realty company or board is trying to justify duping people. Which to me is unethical to begin with.

There's two sides to buying an expensive house, one is the people buying the property/house, the other is the realtor who's going to make money off of selling that house or property. Often times these days, money clouds people's good judgement. They won't actually think they're doing anything wrong as long as they walk away with a commission for the sold property.

It's hard enough to know who to trust anymore, without something as unethical as this possibly popping up. When I went to look at property a few months ago, I was told by one agent that it's a buyers market. When I asked another about possibly selling my home, this agent told me it was a sellers market. So, which is it? Me thinks it's the agents market, in reality.

jays2345

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ive thought about this recently although its prob not done in a small area im sure pro photographers and some image editing or altering is done in bigger citys

ariesguy

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I find it to be "suspect," but I wouldn't say it's illegal or unethical. I know auto dealers do it all the time.. it's along those same lines. Just put a disclaimer in and you're good to go.

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clubs:


2 edits
Then legally you have moved from a photograph of the property to a representation of the property.

I'm not sure I understand your point. Toys in the backyard, are not a representation of the property anymore than an unmade bed is. My point is that I do not misrepresent the property. Legally, what is the distinction between a photograph and a representation of a property?

major marco
Res Firma Mitescere Nescit
Premium
join:2003-02-13
Stepford, CA
clubs:

First of all, in California at least, everything you're buying is right there in the papers you're signing. And if the agent and/or broker put something in the docs, or missed putting something there that should have been been before you signed on the dotted line, then you can turn around and litigate.

Secondly, irrespective of the questionable ethics, if you buy a home based on a picture and don't bother to actually check out what you're buying with you're own eyes, then you deserve everything you get.
--
The Toll


See 14 replies to this post
stonecolddsl
Linux Junkie

join:2004-01-07
Sarasota, FL
·Rapid Systems, Inc.
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Actually I have a funny Photoshop story involving Real Estate Listings.

So I do alot of custom database programing work for these sometimes less then ethical people. But there is one that sticks out in my mind as she is too dumb to be unethical... Apparently she took a few quick pictures of a house and was not paying attention to what she was doing. Probably because she had her blackberry in one hand and the camera in the other. So I get a frantic call from her and she pleading with me to edit a photo. I said no, assuming she wanted me to clone over bad spots on the structure which has been asked of me before.

She told me no it was not that kind of editing job she just needed a animal removed from the front yard, that she did not notice when she took the pictures. I was still a little uncertian if i wanted to do it but I told her to send them over and let me have a look. When I open the email it was the funniest picture I ever seen of a House going up for sale.

In front of the house was a dog which his side was facing the camera. squating pinching a loaf. Worst part was when she snaped the picture the turd was still in hanging from the dogs bottom.

I cloned out the dog and the offending fecal matter. was that unethical nooo just funny. But anything other than that i would have an problem with.

jjoshua
Premium
join:2001-06-01
Scotch Plains, NJ
·Verizon FIOS
·Comcast

Perhaps my distinction is not clear...

We're in agreement that it is unethical for the seller, owner, whatever...

But, is it unethical for the person being asked to make the changes? Someone who does photoshop for a living and who doesn't own the property.
ric b

join:2006-03-23
Saint Louis, MO


1 edit
There's LOTS of military people (and others) who may get transferred to a certain area, but are not able to travel for lack of time or money to travel back and forth long distances overseas or whatever. They have to rely on what they see in a photo on the net, what the seller sends them or tells them. Is it their fault that they had to buy without seeing the property in person? Is it their fault that they got duped, by a photo that mis-represents the property or surrounding area(s)?
nvmp7

join:2004-07-11
Auburn, ME
How many Real Estate Professionals do we have engaged in this discussion?

Gizy
Have you thanked a soldier today?
Premium
join:2002-08-26
Lake Oswego, OR
clubs:

Re: The ethics of "Photoshopping" Real Estate Listings.

At least one in the business.
nvmp7

join:2004-07-11
Auburn, ME

Re: The ethics of "Photoshopping" Real Estate Listings.

Make that two, or one-and-a-half.

My wife is a broker, and I take all of her photos as well as accompany her to most of her showings/open houses. We also own rental property. Bottom line is, we've never run into a situation where a buyer purchases (or a renter signs a lease) sight unseen. We've had buyers/renters inquire about the possibility, however, we've simply suggested strongly against it. If the prospect is serious about the property, they'll come to look at it. We've had a couple sales of military personnel. In one case the husband couldn't come to the showing so the wife came alone. The other case the both of them came. They flew 1500 miles for three days to look at multiple properties they had set up appointments for. Whether it's NYC, Auburn Maine or Los Angeles, if you're serious about buying a piece of property you better make time to check it out.
In our MLS we can only upload 8 photos. There is no way to post enough photos to cover what may potentially turn someone on/off. Everyone's just a little bit different.
If your Realtor is at least worth their weight in business cards, you should be a happy buyer/seller.

Nate

Mauricio9
Premium
join:2001-12-04
Vancouver, BC


1 edit

Re: The ethics of "Photoshopping" Real Estate Listings.

said by nvmp7 See Profile :

In our MLS we can only upload 8 photos. There is no way to post enough photos to cover what may potentially turn someone on/off. Everyone's just a little bit different.
That's not the issue here. The question is whether it is ethical for a realtor to post a photo where elements that may potentially turn someone off have deliberately been edited out. What's your take on that?
--
My photo galleries
nvmp7

join:2004-07-11
Auburn, ME

Re: The ethics of "Photoshopping" Real Estate Listings.

My apologies, I was busy passing on some of my experiences that I forgot to comment on the original point...

In no way should a photo be manipulated in order to make the property seem more appealing than it's natural state in regards to removing/adding "elements" such as other buildings, landscapes or even power lines. I believe there was a question raised as to whether it was deceitful to put on the superwide lens and get the property without the power lines in the frame. The problem here is, there is no way to be able to tell if it was done in a deceitful way or if some agent with his/her $15 disposable camera just got "lucky" with the shot and never even noticed the power lines were there.
At the end of the day, the term "to accurately represent" is too subjective. That's why the buyer needs to physically look at the property. I could go on for hours giving different experiences....

Nate

Mauricio9
Premium
join:2001-12-04
Vancouver, BC


1 edit

Re: The ethics of "Photoshopping" Real Estate Listings.

That's my thinking... there are sins of omission and sins of commission. It is very hard to determine someone's responsibility for the first type. The second type, however, are definitely unethical and should be outright illegal.
--
My photo galleries
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