Re: Will internet broadcasters actually follow up this time? in http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r18038218 en Thu, 20 Nov 2008 09:01:11 EDT Thu, 20 Nov 2008 09:01:11 EDT Re: Will internet broadcasters actually follow up this time? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18042928 RadioDoc : Actually, we're both right. The composers and writers come at them as well via ASCAP et. al. as you succinctly describe.

I didn't mean to say the RIAA had an exclusive on racketeering. They've just been a lot more aggressive about it lately.
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Toolmaster of La Grange.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18042928 Thu, 22 Mar 2007 00:25:00 EDT Re: Will internet broadcasters actually follow up this time? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18042677 Kearnstd : thats pretty sad that playing a CD in a shop is considered public performance, its not like people come to one store over another because on plays the beatles and one plays the stones.
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[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18042677 Wed, 21 Mar 2007 23:16:39 EDT Re: Will internet broadcasters actually follow up this time? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18042458 russotto : It is NOT the RIAA who sues over playing the radio in a store or playing a CD on hold. It is ASCAP, BMI, and SESAC, the OTHER music mafia, representing songwriters and composers. They go into a public place (restaurant, store, whatever) and listen for music. If they hear anything on their (enormous) list, they go to the owner and they offer him a deal -- pay thousands of dollars for an ASCAP (or whoever) license, or get sued for hundreds of thousands. If the victim doesn't pay up, they do indeed sue, and usually win (it's good to have the laws in your pocket). They've been doing this for longer than the RIAA has.

Like the RIAA, they're ALSO known for screwing the people they represent, distributing their spoils according to a secret formula that assures the top people get all the royalties and those further down the list get literally nothing.

Another game they play is one with arrangements. Suppose your venue plays only classical (public domain) music. Not so fast -- they claim copyrights on many different arrangements on the music. And if you don't have a license, they'll demand that _you_ prove that all the music played in your venue was performed according to a public domain arrangement. If you don't (and you're unlikely to be able to), they sue, and win, because they can claim they own all the popular arrangements and the chance of you using all public domain ones is small.

They have lost a few battles about radio play in smaller establishments, but the rules are pretty arcane.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18042458 Wed, 21 Mar 2007 22:39:12 EDT Re: Will internet broadcasters actually follow up this time? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18041169 TK Junk Mail :
said by cableties See Profile :

BTW, why are your avatars so...obnoxious? Does it reflect... :D
What is obnoxious about lighthouses and the US Flag?
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[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18041046 Wed, 21 Mar 2007 18:23:39 EDT Re: Will internet broadcasters actually follow up this time? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18040318 RadioDoc : You can't legally play the radio in a store...nor can you play it over your telephone system's on-hold function...without a performance license. Did you know that?

CD playing is expressly verboten without that same license.

Muzak is a licensed service, so you are paying indirectly with that.

The whole thing is insane.
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Toolmaster of La Grange.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18040318 Wed, 21 Mar 2007 16:11:54 EDT Re: Will internet broadcasters actually follow up this time? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18040068 Kearnstd : the RIAA is so Evil that they have sued stores who play CDs instead of signing up for Muzak or playing the radio.
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[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18040068 Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:27:22 EDT Re: Will internet broadcasters actually follow up this time? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18040061 Warez_Zealot :
said by supergirl See Profile :

said by russotto See Profile :

Wrong. Not only do ASCAP and BMI claim copyrights on arrangements of just about any classical piece you can think of, the performances themselves are all copyrighted too.
Dump NPR. Taxes pay for it. With all the news out there, why do with need a taxpayer paid station? Only news rejects work there. Considering how bad CNN's ratings are, how hard is it to land a job there? NPR is a taxpayer rip-off.
You might want to research the topic before commenting on "all the new out there"
»www.cjr.org/tools/owners/]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18040061 Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:26:20 EDT Re: Will internet broadcasters actually follow up this time? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18039591 RadioDoc : Thank you. I was going to hunt those down but had a paying client call me. Something Tom doesn't have to worry about now.

That list is certainly representative of independent webcasters participating in the proceeding.
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Toolmaster of La Grange.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18039591 Wed, 21 Mar 2007 14:01:51 EDT Re: Will internet broadcasters actually follow up this time? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18039349 rustyhodge : Those are the links for the SUBSCRIPTION SERVICES.

»www.loc.gov/crb/proceedings/2005···05-1.pdf is the proper link, and lists who got involved.

Also, it cost a lot of money to be part of the hearings, so many stations couldn't afford to participate on their own; however many of the larger "indies" did, and many smaller stations that did not officially participate paid into a legal defense fund for the small webcasters defense.

»www.loc.gov/crb/proceedings/2005···05-1.pdf

B. PARTIES TO THE PROCEEDING
The parties to this proceeding are: (i) Digital Media Association and certain of its
member companies that participated in this proceeding, namely: America Online, Inc. (“AOL”),
Yahoo!, Inc. (Yahoo!”), Microsoft, Inc. (“Microsoft”), and Live365, Inc. (“Live 365”)
(collectively referred to as “DiMA”); (ii) “Radio Broadcasters”(this designation was adopted byB. PARTIES TO THE PROCEEDING
The parties to this proceeding are: (i) Digital Media Association and certain of its
member companies that participated in this proceeding, namely: America Online, Inc. (“AOL”),
Yahoo!, Inc. (Yahoo!”), Microsoft, Inc. (“Microsoft”), and Live365, Inc. (“Live 365”)
(collectively referred to as “DiMA”); (ii) “Radio Broadcasters”(this designation was adopted by
the parties): namely, Bonneville International Corp., Clear Channel Communications, Inc.,
National Religious Broadcasters Music License Committee (“NRBMLC”), Susquehanna Radio
Corp.; (iii) SBR Creative Media, Inc. (“SBR”) and the “Small Commercial Webcasters” (this
designation was adopted by the parties): namely, AccuRadio, LLC, Digitally Imported, Inc.,
Radioio.com LLC, Discombobulated, LLC, 3WK, LLC, Radio Paradise, Inc.; (iv) National
Public Radio, Inc. (“NPR”), Corporation for Public Broadcasting-Qualified Stations (“CPB”),
National Religious Broadcasters Noncommercial Music License Committee (“NRBNMLC”),
Collegiate Broadcasters, Inc. (“CBI”), Intercollegiate Broadcasting System, Inc., (“IBS”), and
Harvard Radio Broadcasting, Inc. (“WHRB”); (v) Royalty Logic, Inc. (“RLI”); and (vi)
SoundExchange, Inc. (“SoundExchange”).
DiMA, Radio Broadcasters, Small Commercial Webcasters, SBR, NPR, CPB,
NRBNMLC, CBI, IBS and WHRB are sometimes referred to collectively as “the Services.” The
Services are Internet webcasters or broadcast radio simulcasters that each employ a technology
known as streaming, but comprise a range of different business models and music programming.
DiMA and certain of its member companies that participated in the proceeding (namely: AOL,
Yahoo!, Microsoft and Live 365), Radio Broadcasters, SBR and Small Commercial Webcasters
are sometimes referred to collectively as “Commercial Webcasters.” NPR, CPB, NRBNMLC,
CBI, IBS and WHRB are sometimes referred to collectively as “Noncommercial Webcasters.” ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18039349 Wed, 21 Mar 2007 13:23:52 EDT Re: Will internet broadcasters actually follow up this time? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18039295 rustyhodge : They are sticking it to over the air and satellite. You haven't seen all the fighting between Sirius, XM and the RIAA? Do a little googling. They're fighting over royalty rates right now as well.

And the NAB and the RIAA have been fighting for a long time. The RIAA has stated that they want over-the-airt radio to pay as well, but over-the-air is legally exempted in the copyright act.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18039295 Wed, 21 Mar 2007 13:15:39 EDT Re: Will internet broadcasters actually follow up this time? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18039275 TK Junk Mail :
said by supergirl See Profile :

Okay, TCH, explain how the Copyright Board's "ruling" was damn near the same thing the RIAA submitted? I know Indie radio submitted since it is on their websites.
See these links. They never participated.
»www.loc.gov/crb/proceedings/2005···icipants
»www.loc.gov/crb/proceedings/2005···ocuments
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said by supergirl See Profile :

said by RadioDoc See Profile :

You're wrong this time, Tom. The independent Internet broadcasters participated as a group through representation and were ignored (just like in 2002).
Don't confuse TCH with facts. RIAA people don't like facts. It messes up their bullsh*t arguments.
I don't see any facts. Just an unsubstantiated claim.
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said by RadioDoc See Profile :

You're wrong this time, Tom. The independent Internet broadcasters participated as a group through representation and were ignored (just like in 2002).
Don't confuse TCH with facts. RIAA people don't like facts. It messes up their bullsh*t arguments.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18038894 Wed, 21 Mar 2007 11:59:49 EDT Re: NPR http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18038835 supergirl :
said by viperlmw See Profile :

said by supergirl See Profile :

Dump NPR. Taxes pay for it. With all the news out there, why do with need a taxpayer paid station? Only news rejects work there. Considering how bad CNN's ratings are, how hard is it to land a job there? NPR is a taxpayer rip-off.
I'd rather pay taxes for NPR than buy products advertised on FOX noise.
You don't have to watch Fox. You can watch CNN to the death. You and the other 3 people. :)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18038835 Wed, 21 Mar 2007 11:48:07 EDT Re: Will internet broadcasters actually follow up this time? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18038810 RadioDoc : You can do better than that.

edit: See below for the real participation information you carefully avoided finding.
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Toolmaster of La Grange.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18038810 Wed, 21 Mar 2007 11:43:49 EDT Re: Will internet broadcasters actually follow up this time? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18038802 RadioDoc : These are not royalties on the work itself; they are royalties on public performance of those works. So unless the station is performing the work using their own orchestra or are playing a public domain recording, of which there are few, then the RIAA will be in the station's pockets rummaging around for what amounts to the yearly budget for some.
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Toolmaster of La Grange.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18038802 Wed, 21 Mar 2007 11:42:25 EDT Re: Will internet broadcasters actually follow up this time? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18038799 TK Junk Mail :
said by RadioDoc See Profile :

You're wrong this time, Tom. The independent Internet broadcasters participated as a group through representation and were ignored (just like in 2002).
If they participated, then why aren't there any documents from them filed on the government web site?
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Toolmaster of La Grange.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18038782 Wed, 21 Mar 2007 11:39:44 EDT NPR http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18038713 viperlmw :
said by supergirl See Profile :

Dump NPR. Taxes pay for it. With all the news out there, why do with need a taxpayer paid station? Only news rejects work there. Considering how bad CNN's ratings are, how hard is it to land a job there? NPR is a taxpayer rip-off.
I'd rather pay taxes for NPR than buy products advertised on FOX noise.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18038713 Wed, 21 Mar 2007 11:23:41 EDT Re: Will internet broadcasters actually follow up this time? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18038521 russotto : Time to put on the eyepatch and run up the Jolly Roger, then, because there's no doubt the RIAA has the money to buy the copyright board and get Internet radio out of business or under its thumb.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18038521 Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:41:25 EDT Re: Will internet broadcasters actually follow up this time? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18038454 Sarah :
said by supergirl See Profile :

TCH - apparently you like the RIAA sticking it to Net radio, but why isn't the RIAA not sticking it to over the air radio or satellite radio? Payola scandals plague over the air stations as of late. Maybe the RIAA should be paying Net radio too?
That's exactly why they're sticking it to net radio and not OTA or satellite. We don't play what they want us to play and we don't take their bribes...
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[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18038395 Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:14:29 EDT Re: Will internet broadcasters actually follow up this time? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18038354 supergirl :
said by russotto See Profile :

Wrong. Not only do ASCAP and BMI claim copyrights on arrangements of just about any classical piece you can think of, the performances themselves are all copyrighted too.
Dump NPR. Taxes pay for it. With all the news out there, why do with need a taxpayer paid station? Only news rejects work there. Considering how bad CNN's ratings are, how hard is it to land a job there? NPR is a taxpayer rip-off.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18038354 Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:04:28 EDT Re: Will internet broadcasters actually follow up this time? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18038314 russotto : Wrong. Not only do ASCAP and BMI claim copyrights on arrangements of just about any classical piece you can think of, the performances themselves are all copyrighted too.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18038314 Wed, 21 Mar 2007 09:57:49 EDT Re: Will internet broadcasters actually follow up this time? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18038302 supergirl : TCH - apparently you like the RIAA sticking it to Net radio, but why isn't the RIAA not sticking it to over the air radio or satellite radio? Payola scandals plague over the air stations as of late. Maybe the RIAA should be paying Net radio too?

If I was going to record a radio station it would be satellite or over-the-air not Net since the quality is far better. The RIAA doesn't care about the artists so don't try and pass that crap by me. The record companies have a history of screwing artists. Elton John paid $33 million for the rights to his stuff just to get it out of their hands a few years ago. Why? He knew he could make a heck of a lot more owning his songs.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18038302 Wed, 21 Mar 2007 09:55:56 EDT Re: Will internet broadcasters actually follow up this time? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18038234 Jehu : No shit... Nothing like being smacked in the face to wake up.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18038234 Wed, 21 Mar 2007 09:41:16 EDT Re: Will internet broadcasters actually follow up this time? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18038231 manfmmd :
said by cableties See Profile :

The most important voice, NPR, will. And I'm sure, will represent ALL the public stations.
BTW, why are your avatars so...obnoxious? Does it reflect... :D
Perhaps your NPR station is different, but mine usually plays all classical music in the public domain that requires no royalties be paid.

[rant]
I may need to listen more, I enjoy the classical music, but when the talk shows come on, it almost puts me to sleep. Their "content" isn't bad per se (I'm politically right leaning and if you didn't know it NPR is traditionally left leaning), it's informative at times, but the delivery??? :( Who wants to listen to a monotone delivery with a complete lack of emotion.. They should not be so stoic in their delivery and at least pretend that what they are talking about affects them emotionally.
[/rant]
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BTW, why are your avatars so...obnoxious? Does it reflect... :D]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18038178 Wed, 21 Mar 2007 09:28:25 EDT Re: Will internet broadcasters actually follow up this time? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18038176 Chiyo : Ok so what about stations that pay nothing like a few I listen to that run on listener donations to stay afloat? if the RIAA doesn't know about you or something do you slide under the radar?
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In a one-paragraph document issued Tuesday, Chief Copyright Royalty Judge James Scott Sledge invited all of the parties who requested the rehearing to submit documents detailing their positions and arguments by April 2.
I guess we'll see how many actually follow up and submit comments by the scheduled date. They had a year to submit documents during the original hearing process and didn't do a thing. Maybe this time they will actually take part.
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