Re: Vonage is just the first!!! in

Re: Vonage is just the first!!! in http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r18179680 en Fri, 04 Dec 2009 20:39:12 EDT Fri, 04 Dec 2009 20:39:12 EDT Re: haha http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18204923 jhankins : All of the voip modems locked by Vonage are already being unlocked without Vonage's help. Search the web, I have a few router/voip modem Linksys units I've opened and used elsewhere.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18204923 Fri, 20 Apr 2007 12:03:28 EDT Re: Vonage is just the first!!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18201389 terogers : Well, technically speaking SCO had Bill Gates' money to back them up, for a while. Verizon isn't Gates, but SCO is no Verizon without him.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18201389 Thu, 19 Apr 2007 19:44:04 EDT Re: Vonage is just the first!!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18195222 tc1uscg : Your right.. Seen some postings that SR and others are next.. just the tip of the berg. :D Never had any use for VoIP. After 2 attempts.. it's failed miserably. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18195222 Wed, 18 Apr 2007 20:04:41 EDT Re: Vonage is just the first!!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18191609 Goober : Yup. Basic patent law statute. The patent holder has the right to exclude others from making, using, selling or importing the patented item.

Typically, the user or buyer has an IP indemnification clause in the buying agreement when it purchases the parts. So, it's usually not terribly expensive for the user to take care of the matter. But, it's enough of an inconvenience to the buyer as to tick them off regarding the seller. So, the seller risks losing the customer's business as to the infringed part as well as any other things it buys from the seller.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18191609 Wed, 18 Apr 2007 10:04:08 EDT Re: Vonage is just the first!!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18191578 TheBigCheese :

said by dcurrey

:

If Vonage is using off the shelf hardware and Open source shouldn't Verizion be going after them not Vonage.

Would that not be the equivalent of Company Y saying they have the patents on Gas Caps used in GM trucks then suing UPS for violating the patent. When in fact GM was a fault. (note: I don't know if UPS uses GM trucks or not just an example.)

This is exactly what happens in many patent infringement cases. The law allows the patent holder to go after anyone using the patented idea even users. They will usually sue the users with the deepest pockets.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18191578 Wed, 18 Apr 2007 09:58:49 EDT Re: haha http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18191565 Goober : I don't see the injustice here. Litigation will eventually bring out more facts on which the ultimate resolution will be based. That's why we have the court system.

It's too early to say whether there was injustice. It's not an automatic that the little guy is not culpable.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18191565 Wed, 18 Apr 2007 09:56:03 EDT Re: haha http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18191403 KrK : IP is a constitutional right. Injustice isn't. I'm sure the founding fathers would be shocked at how far people have allowed our Government and civic duties to go off-track.

You see they had this idea that people would run for office, and that the voters would diligently make choices and vote for people that represent their positions and interests, and so you'd get a nice balance. The idea of a 2 party system would seem impossible to them. Then the people would pay attention to the workings of Government, and if the elected representatives failed at their duty or their performance was lacking, they'd be voted out quickly.

Like most great theories, it turns out while being a great idea it didn't quite work out that way in practice. And it's not their fault. It's ours. It was supposed to be the job of the citizenry to police the Government and get rid of bad politcians, laws, judges, officials, etc.

... but we don't.

--
"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18191403 Wed, 18 Apr 2007 09:25:23 EDT Re: haha http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18190210 Goober : You should probably take it up with the founding fathers then. IP is a constitutional right.

Article I, section 8, the U.S. Constitution:

Congress shall have power . . . To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18190210 Tue, 17 Apr 2007 23:58:22 EDT Re: haha http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18189413 KrK :

said by brianiscool

:

Goodbye Vonage. Now I get to taunt my friend about him saying they are the best.

How lame. This is how so much of the so-called "Free Market" works in the USA these days.

Can't beat the competition with price, customer service, quality, or by offering what customers want? Use your big business corporate clout to unleash a barrage of lawyers to file lawsuits and use heavy Government lobbying to nuke your competition from being even allowed to exist.

Hoo-ray. NOT. Another lose-lose for consumers.
--
"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18189413 Tue, 17 Apr 2007 21:36:48 EDT Re: Vonage is just the first!!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18188449 pandora :

said by Goober

:

Unfortunately, my work firewall blocks access to that site. If I recall though, wasn't the early N2P more of a PC to PC calling system?

It was PC to phone network. I used it early on when it was free to make some long distance calls to friends with POTS. Quality wasn't great, and there was too long a lag. However, it was VOIP without any doubt.
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"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18188449 Tue, 17 Apr 2007 19:12:16 EDT Re: Vonage is just the first!!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18186646 Goober : Unfortunately, my work firewall blocks access to that site. If I recall though, wasn't the early N2P more of a PC to PC calling system?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18186646 Tue, 17 Apr 2007 14:09:08 EDT Re: Vonage is just the first!!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18186260 pandora :

said by Goober

:

The thing is, a lot of these patent were filed 10 or so years ago. I can't recall the VOIP landscape back then. I know there were a few companies like Net2Phone that were messing around in that space several years ago, but was it prior to VZ's filings?

According to the Net2Phone about page, they've been in business doing VOIP since 1996.

»www.net2phone.com/about/
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"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18186260 Tue, 17 Apr 2007 12:51:21 EDT I can't think of those paid for the service and got screwed. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18185022 flawlessly : It was like $100 for a year and a little more for two years of service, now, they are going to close and you people screwed. BIG TIME!
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Q: 1+1=1? Prove it!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18185022 Tue, 17 Apr 2007 08:57:18 EDT Re: Vonage is just the first!!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18183258 Goober : Congress makes the patent laws. The intent explicitly is to grant a monopoly.

On the other hand, ocassionally compulsory licenses will be required.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18183258 Mon, 16 Apr 2007 22:03:52 EDT Re: Vonage is just the first!!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18182941 AJICQ499087 :

said by hayabusa3303

said by AJICQ499087

:

I doubt Congress will allow the courts to let Verizon's patent tricks kill off every VoIP company.

Want to make a bet. Telco's lobby

You mean you think Verizon will be the only company allowed to provide VoIP? That would mean no other telephone, cable or any other company could provide VoIP. It would be a court ordered monopoly given to Verizon. There is no way Congress would let that happen.
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low cost and fast speed is what customers want in broadband]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18182941 Mon, 16 Apr 2007 21:12:15 EDT Re: Vonage is just the first!!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18182825 hayabusa3303 :

said by AJICQ499087

:

I doubt Congress will allow the courts to let Verizon's patent tricks kill off every VoIP company.

Want to make a bet. Telco's lobby ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18182825 Mon, 16 Apr 2007 20:48:21 EDT Re: Vonage is just the first!!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18182803 BosstonesOwn : sco is dead , but the ripple it caused in the linux / unix world was heard.

Just like sco verizon may have a bad case but they have the money to back it up.

This if it goes mainstream will be a scare tactic to some business that was looking to migrate.
--
"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18182803 Mon, 16 Apr 2007 20:45:15 EDT Re: Vonage is just the first!!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18182574 nanoflower : They definitely won't have much luck against the cable companies. The major providers are using solutions that are based on Texas Instruments or Broadcom solutions so they have huge patent portfolios that they could use against Verizon. At worst they come to an accomodation that the cross licenses the patents that Verizon claims to have. At best the Verizon patents get revoked.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18182574 Mon, 16 Apr 2007 20:08:15 EDT Re: Vonage is just the first!!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18181512 N3OGH : Wow, looks like it's "Your mom's box" for Vonage.

I liked the service when I first got it. Had some problems towards the end. Overall, I thought it was a good value for someone who actually used the phone a lot. Since I work 2 jobs, it made no sense for me.

I'm neither dancing on Vonage's grave, nor feeling sorry for them.
--
FCC, PLEASE KILL THE MERGER BEFORE THE MERGER KILLS SATRAD!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18181512 Mon, 16 Apr 2007 17:18:16 EDT Re: Vonage is just the first!!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18181473 sitrix : Verizon will, they just needed a win against a known company to reinforce their case... :(]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18181473 Mon, 16 Apr 2007 17:12:22 EDT Re: Vonage is just the first!!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18181337 AJICQ499087 : I doubt Congress will allow the courts to let Verizon's patent tricks kill off every VoIP company.
--
low cost and fast speed is what customers want in broadband]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18181337 Mon, 16 Apr 2007 16:48:20 EDT Re: Vonage is just the first!!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18181225 nixen :

said by Goober

said by Loker

said by NowVOIP

:

DT, i would hate to disagree, but you are wrong. This lawsuit, has bearing on only a select few VOIP companies that actually using the "patented" technology. There are several including Cable that do not use the technology and as such VZ would be powerless to stop them.

You're assuming that Verizon didn't buy the requisite patents so that they could put the screws to the rest of the industry.
--
Everyday, thousands of new cars are delivered to their new owners with poorly-selected radio station presets.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18181225 Mon, 16 Apr 2007 16:30:09 EDT Re: Vonage is just the first!!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18181221 nixen :

said by BosstonesOwn

:

This has a ripple affect , just like sco did. Now people will hawk their wares saying see OSS is bad for business you open yourself up for lawsuits in the future.

Really? And how've things been working out for SCO, lately?
--
Everyday, thousands of new cars are delivered to their new owners with poorly-selected radio station presets.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18181221 Mon, 16 Apr 2007 16:28:31 EDT Re: haha http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18180892 AnClar : This begs an interesting question. Will all those "locked to Vonage" ATAs that Linksys and Vonage have flooded the market with be unlocked as part of a deal if (when) Vonage goes belly-up, or will the consumers be stuck with useless ATA hardware in addition to whatever service they lose?

My guess is that, as usual, this will be another consumer BOHICA deal and all those ATAs will become so much useless junk. :mad: :mad:
--
When in danger or in doubt run in circles, scream and shout!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18180892 Mon, 16 Apr 2007 15:28:12 EDT Re: haha http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18180345 Pirate515 :

said by TKJunkMail

:

Everybody is looking past one fact. And that is Vonage can pay royalties to Verizon. It may raise the rates they must charge to customers, but they can stay in business.

Yes, and I am pretty sure that to laugh at Vonage some more, Verizon will charge them some astronomical amount for royalties, forcing Vonage to charge more for their VoIP than Verizon charges for their POTS service. With that in mind, how can Vonage keep existing customers and sign up new ones? The main selling point of VoIP is that while it does have some drawbacks compared to POTS, it is cheaper, and those who are willing to live with these drawbacks in order to save a few bucks will use VoIP instead. However, if they had to live with drawbacks AND pay more while they are at it, then what's the point? Might as well go back to POTS service then.
--

Ask me no questions, and I'll tell you no lies...
A MESSAGE to the RIAA and the MPAA: You shouldn't wound what you can't kill...
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18180345 Mon, 16 Apr 2007 13:40:06 EDT Re: Vonage is just the first!!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18180198 Surfinusa : Packet8 Isn't going anywhere I wouldn't worry. Other than that who else is going down? The cable industry? I don't think so.

Vonage asked for it when they used technologies that were not there own and they are paying the price. There never was a work around they made that statement but it never was.

The only thing they can do is start from scratch and spend the money on making VOIP the legal way through research and money well spent. Not using any ones protected technologies.

Game over for now Vonage.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18180198 Mon, 16 Apr 2007 13:11:29 EDT Re: Vonage is just the first!!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18180148 Goober :

said by Loker

said by NowVOIP

The thing is, a lot of these patent were filed 10 or so years ago. I can't recall the VOIP landscape back then. I know there were a few companies like Net2Phone that were messing around in that space several years ago, but was it prior to VZ's filings?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18180148 Mon, 16 Apr 2007 13:02:20 EDT Re: Vonage is just the first!!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18180134 nozzer : Not only are they broad, they seem to fail the "obviousness" test, making a mockery of the whole idea of "process patents".
I mean the idea that someone could patent something as obvious as using a server to translate IP addresses to phone numbers to route calls, as recently as 2000 seems ridiculous to me. There must be prior art there somewhere.

Thank god I have an overseas (where this kind of process patent ISN'T recognized) VOIP provider as backup ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18180134 Mon, 16 Apr 2007 12:59:27 EDT Re: Vonage is just the first!!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18180032 dcurrey : If Vonage is using off the shelf hardware and Open source shouldn't Verizion be going after them not Vonage.

Would that not be the equivalent of Company Y saying they have the patents on Gas Caps used in GM trucks then suing UPS for violating the patent. When in fact GM was a fault. (note: I don't know if UPS uses GM trucks or not just an example.)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18180032 Mon, 16 Apr 2007 12:41:42 EDT Re: Vonage is just the first!!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18179739 BosstonesOwn :

said by priller

:

That could very well be.

However, one key point of Vonage's defense was that they use Commercial Off-the-shelf or OpenSource software to operate the network. If true, that would strongly imply that many others are exposed to the same patent infringement.

If the above is true ... I've often wondered if VZ was going after the right people. Shouldn't they be going after the developers that wrote the software that contains the patents instead of the network operator that is using it?

With verizon doing this. Not only will they kill off some voip providers , but they will also kill off some OSS devs and companies using OSS.

This has a ripple affect , just like sco did. Now people will hawk their wares saying see OSS is bad for business you open yourself up for lawsuits in the future.

Admitting they used OSS is bad, for OSS , but I am sure MS and other closed vendors are licking their chops at this as a side effect.
--
"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18179739 Mon, 16 Apr 2007 11:47:28 EDT Re: Vonage is just the first!!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18179680 Loker :

said by NowVOIP

Verizon's patents are really quite broad....thats why I am still confident this is going to get tossed on appeal...

If it does not though it could mean hell for a lot of VoIP outfits because of the broadness of the patents...
--
"While preceding your entrance with a grenade is a good tactic in Quake, it can lead to problems if attempted at work." -- C Hacking]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18179680 Mon, 16 Apr 2007 11:36:33 EDT Re: haha http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18179604 v35_pilot :

said by brianiscool

:

Goodbye Vonage. Now I get to taunt my friend about him saying they are the best.

Less competition is never good for the consumer. What do you pay per month for phone service?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18179604 Mon, 16 Apr 2007 11:19:47 EDT Re: haha http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18179494 chris :

said by TKJunkMail

said by Jeffrey

said by TKJunkMail

:

Everybody is looking past 1 fact. And that is Vonage can pay royalties to Verizon. It may raise the rates they must charge to customers but they can stay in business.

Isn't that is assuming that Verizon and the court accepts that? ... Does Vonage has sufficient financing to withstand months and months of legal fees and still stay afloat?

I had thought I read something that said Verizon was not interested in the royalities and they wanted Vonage shut down instead.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18179494 Mon, 16 Apr 2007 10:54:16 EDT Re: haha http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18179453 Jim Gurd :

said by TKJunkMail

:

Everybody is looking past 1 fact. And that is Vonage can pay royalties to Verizon. It may raise the rates they must charge to customers but they can stay in business.

Even if that's true they would then lose their only competitive edge which is a lower price. Without a lower price there is no reason to leave the reliability of POTS.
--
We don't care. We don't have to. We're the phone company.

-- Ernestine]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18179453 Mon, 16 Apr 2007 10:44:51 EDT Re: haha http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18179359 TKJunkMail :

said by Jeffrey

said by TKJunkMail

:

Everybody is looking past 1 fact. And that is Vonage can pay royalties to Verizon. It may raise the rates they must charge to customers but they can stay in business.

Isn't that is assuming that Verizon and the court accepts that? ... Does Vonage has sufficient financing to withstand months and months of legal fees and still stay afloat?

Vonage might not have enough resources to do both, but they made their choice and will live or die by it. But other VOIP providers that may be violating the Verizon patents can negotiate or fight - their choice.
--
--
My BLOG
My Web Page]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18179359 Mon, 16 Apr 2007 10:20:33 EDT Re: Vonage is just the first!!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18179346 priller : That could very well be.

However, one key point of Vonage's defense was that they use Commercial Off-the-shelf or OpenSource software to operate the network. If true, that would strongly imply that many others are exposed to the same patent infringement.

If the above is true ... I've often wondered if VZ was going after the right people. Shouldn't they be going after the developers that wrote the software that contains the patents instead of the network operator that is using it?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18179346 Mon, 16 Apr 2007 10:16:32 EDT Re: haha http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18179326 Jeffrey :

said by TKJunkMail

:

Everybody is looking past 1 fact. And that is Vonage can pay royalties to Verizon. It may raise the rates they must charge to customers but they can stay in business.

Isn't that is assuming that Verizon and the court accepts that? ... Does Vonage has sufficient financing to withstand months and months of legal fees and still stay afloat?
--
"When you get lost in your imaginatory vagueness, your foresight becomes a nimble vagrant."

[Ramblings] [RIP Millie 1993-2006]
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18179326 Mon, 16 Apr 2007 10:11:18 EDT Re: haha http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18179289 TKJunkMail : Everybody is looking past 1 fact. And that is Vonage can pay royalties to Verizon. It may raise the rates they must charge to customers but they can stay in business.
--
--
My BLOG
My Web Page]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18179289 Mon, 16 Apr 2007 10:01:59 EDT Re: Vonage is just the first!!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18179275 NowVOIP : DT, i would hate to disagree, but you are wrong. This lawsuit, has bearing on only a select few VOIP companies that actually using the "patented" technology. There are several including Cable that do not use the technology and as such VZ would be powerless to stop them.
--
The revolution will be televised!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18179275 Mon, 16 Apr 2007 09:58:26 EDT Vonage is just the first!!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18179230 priller : Be careful what you wish for!

Vonage isn't doing something other VoIP providers aren't. Vonage was just the first target. If the judgment against them holds, all others will be shutdown as well. This is only a test case. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18179230 Mon, 16 Apr 2007 09:49:31 EDT haha http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18179149 brianiscool : Goodbye Vonage. Now I get to taunt my friend about him saying they are the best.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18179149 Mon, 16 Apr 2007 09:32:00 EDT