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 calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA | reply to RayW
Re: What is wrong with discrimination? First, you deliberately ignored my subsequent statements which do not treat broadband as a luxury--they point out the same fallacies in the "forced deployment" argument even if it is a "necessity".
Second, people who don't pay for electricity get shut off all the time--that's how utilities keep the money flowing in.
Third, trying to derail this discussion with an argument about the definition of "slum" is disingenuous, to say the least. Let's stay on point and not pick at my choice of words--feel free to substitute "economically disadvantaged residential area" for "slum" if you get off on politically correct euphemisms.
Finally, you need to realize you are (all?) saying that broadband should be considered a UTILITY, like gas, electricity, or water. Realize that the "utility" category assumes monopoly status--do you really want broadband only offered by a monopoly? If so, please develop a consensus on whether it should be cable or telco, then come back with those arguments.
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | | |
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RayWPremium
join:2001-09-01
Layton, UT
kudos:1 | Hate to break this to you, but cable has been treated as a utility for over 40 years, at least in places I have lived. Just because new uses have come along that were only dreamed about in the 60's does not change that, even though it looks like politicians and laws are being bought to do so in various ways.
And talking about derails, I said said by RayW:I wonder what the people in the areas that have a hard time paying for electricity or do not use much electricity would think if you shut them down. After all, electricity is not really needed, so unless you can consume and pay for a lot you are a drag on the profit sheet. They can use candles and firewood, and walk to the store daily for perishables. Nothing about NON PAYMENT!, a totally different subject. Just referring to the fact that you might not get many of them (those in poor neighborhoods) and the ones that you do will get the cheap packages and not the big money makers. But like the other utilities when they too were luxuries, as more on-line access is required, more will eventually become customers. And like other utilities, you may have to take action and delete them (easier since right now cable is not a 'survival' issue).
Forced deployment, nothing wrong with that historically, for better or worse it helped get us to where we are today. Rural electrification was forced and in some cases done by the government, and telephones had requirements to go out to other areas that were not as lucrative.
Nothing is forcing your company to do what the franchise wants, but someone else will do it (AT&T vice Comcast is an example here). If you think being required to furnish service to areas (and to make sure you do not misunderstand again: and to get at least the minimum fees from those who partake even if they do not buy into the overpriced frills that make the executives rich) is too much trouble, then keep out of the way, just like AT&T eventually did here.
Oh, and I do not advocate going into areas where it is demonstrable hazardous to the installers and excessively hazardous to equipment. Might as while nip that argument. It might be useful socially, but the potential cost in life is too high.
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I am not lost, I find myself every time. | |
calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA | I'm missing your argument regarding electric service--it was in fact built out to rich neighborhoods first. For residential service, I don't think there are different "packages" that customers can buy. Eventually, over decades, electric service became near universal. Still, in rural areas, customers may face substantial costs to build out long service lines to new locations.
Regarding telephone service, telcos generally didn't "go out" to non-profitable areas until the Rural Electrification funds were expanded to include telephone service. (Note that this has now become a huge slush fund.) Some states still have areas where there is no telco available at all--only satellite service is possible. California has many such areas in the Sierra.
My point is that all this takes time, forcing the issue isn't necessarily a good idea, and today's subsidies become tomorrow's slush funds. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | |
RayWPremium
join:2001-09-01
Layton, UT
kudos:1 | I know you are missing the point of the electrical service but that is ok, it is only history.
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I am not lost, I find myself every time. | |
calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA | It is history--and history has shown us that networks develop over time, are concentrated in certain areas first, and not everyone automatically can connect tomorrow.
This is, of course, offensive to those who believe that every person in the country should have exactly the same environment, regardless of where they live, how hard they work, or what they might want.
RayW, I'll agree that it's appropriate for me to subsidize broadband expansion in the suburbs of Salt Lake City around the same time you agree it's appropriate for you to subsidize the expansion of parking garages in San Francisco. We each made our choice of where to live and work, and we need to live with the consequences of those choices.
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | |
RayWPremium
join:2001-09-01
Layton, UT
kudos:1 | said by calvoiper:It is history--and history has shown us that networks develop over time, are concentrated in certain areas first, and not everyone automatically can connect tomorrow. This is, of course, offensive to those who believe that every person in the country should have exactly the same environment, regardless of where they live, how hard they work, or what they might want. RayW, I'll agree that it's appropriate for me to subsidize broadband expansion in the suburbs of Salt Lake City around the same time you agree it's appropriate for you to subsidize the expansion of parking garages in San Francisco. We each made our choice of where to live and work, and we need to live with the consequences of those choices. calvoiper Parking garages? What does that have to do with Broad Band? And we do not need you to subsidize Broad Band out here, just keep your crappy company from suing our local government (and buying laws against) for trying to do what you could/would not.
If you can't do the job right, then get out of the business and let companies like Comcast or local governments do it. Your excuses of why you can not do it are just as bogus today as your predecessor's were 40 years ago (and I see that certain companies still made enough money to spend on buying laws despite the loss from wiring "poor" areas).
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I am not lost, I find myself every time. | |
calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA | Ray, there's no "you" here--I don't work for or represent in any fashion any telco. Please don't accuse me of not doing some job "right"--by your political standards.
I do however, reject the efforts by tin-pot dictatorships called local governments that try to manage competition, extort free broadband for government, require "public access" channels that run puff pieces on local politicians, and otherwise seek to turn business into their own little piggy bank.
Doing the job "right" means different things to different people--and in the case of local government, it all to often means kissing up to the cable company that has been distributing Christmas gifts to government honchos for years and sticking it to the telcos that have been regulated at the state level.
Requiring "build-out" by telco video competitors is one more ploy to delay video competition--a ploy that you are either part of, or deluded by.
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | |
 marigoldsGainfully employed, finallyPremium,MVM
join:2002-05-13
Saint Louis, MO
kudos:1 | reply to calvoiper
said by calvoiper:For residential service, I don't think there are different "packages" that customers can buy. That might depend on where you are. Here there are about a dozen different packages of electric service available with different types of billing and different "mixes" of energy sources. | |
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