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CylonRed
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County
reply to rodrod5

Re: Vonage needs to realize

I certainly understand the feeling as well. To get decent VOIP I would have to upgrade my DSL and spend more money per month, then I would have to get a UPS to keep the router and VOIP hardware running during a power outage (hopefully it is short) and heaven forbid my CLEC has any issue that causes the line to go down (luckily only down for a total of 2 weeks right after 9/11/01 - but the possibility is there) and then I personally do NOT trust the 911 service as well and with 2 young kids - that is a deal breaker for me.

Not to mention - I would not save huge amounts - we don't do a lot of long distance calling and if I do then it is on the cell.

I personally don't want everything running where one point of failure takes everything out. While the internet is stable - not all of the ISP's, ILEC/CLEC's are and hardware issues will happen...
--
Brian

"Some people are like Slinkies...
Not really good for anything......
But they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs."



calvoiper

join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA

When, oh when, are people going to learn that the world is not JUST ABOUT THEM?

All this "I see no need for Vonage" talk reminds me of the wife of a former colleague who said "I don't see why all the guys are so excited about the first Home Depot to open in town. Alfred at the hardware store sells me all the nails I need...."

You want to keep paying too much for century old technology? Fine. Quit bitching about the rest of us who prefer to drive modern cars instead of Model T's.

calvoiper
--
VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies!



CylonRed
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County

I was not "bitching' about anyone...


rradina

join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO
reply to CylonRed

I hear the UPS thing all the time. If you have a cell phone, quit worrying about power outages. In fact, I'll bet a lot of people don't even realize that their POTS lines work when the power goes out. Why? Cordless phones don't work without power.

What I'd really like is for WiMax to eliminate the last mile physical connection. Imagine having video, network and voice with no wires or fiber. Now imagine how that would potentially create competition like never before.



RadioDoc
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11
La Grange, IL
kudos:2

1 recommendation

said by rradina:

Imagine having video, network and voice with no wires or fiber. Now imagine how that would potentially create competition like never before.
Now imagine how that would potentially create congestion like never before.
--
Toolmaster of La Grange.


CylonRed
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County
reply to rradina

said by rradina:

I hear the UPS thing all the time. If you have a cell phone, quit worrying about power outages. In fact, I'll bet a lot of people don't even realize that their POTS lines work when the power goes out. Why? Cordless phones don't work without power.

What I'd really like is for WiMax to eliminate the last mile physical connection. Imagine having video, network and voice with no wires or fiber. Now imagine how that would potentially create competition like never before.
It mainly goes back to 911 - I trust cell 911 and VOIP 911 and that is of utmost importance to me. Main reason we have one regular phone is to use during a blackout. Cell is somewhat limited - there are areas still where cells still don't work great with poor/no signal so for me - that is not a great solution.
--
Brian

"Some people are like Slinkies...
Not really good for anything......
But they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs."

dentman42
Premium
join:2001-10-02
Columbus, OH
reply to calvoiper

said by calvoiper:

When, oh when, are people going to learn that the world is not JUST ABOUT THEM?

All this "I see no need for Vonage" talk reminds me of the wife of a former colleague who said "I don't see why all the guys are so excited about the first Home Depot to open in town. Alfred at the hardware store sells me all the nails I need...."

You want to keep paying too much for century old technology? Fine. Quit bitching about the rest of us who prefer to drive modern cars instead of Model T's.

calvoiper
So you're saying Home Depot is new technology?

dentman42
Premium
join:2001-10-02
Columbus, OH
reply to CylonRed

said by CylonRed:

said by rradina:

I hear the UPS thing all the time. If you have a cell phone, quit worrying about power outages. In fact, I'll bet a lot of people don't even realize that their POTS lines work when the power goes out. Why? Cordless phones don't work without power.

What I'd really like is for WiMax to eliminate the last mile physical connection. Imagine having video, network and voice with no wires or fiber. Now imagine how that would potentially create competition like never before.
It mainly goes back to 911 - I trust cell 911 and VOIP 911 and that is of utmost importance to me. Main reason we have one regular phone is to use during a blackout. Cell is somewhat limited - there are areas still where cells still don't work great with poor/no signal so for me - that is not a great solution.
In a situation with a widespread power outage, cell serivces are likely to be overloaded too. I've been in a situation where the power was out, my cell couldn't hold a signal or the network was busy (same with my GF's cell, different provider), and POTS was my only option. (Didn't have time to put the cable modem or a TV on a UPS and see if the cable was still up and didn't have DSL yet, but DSL depends on the POTS lines anyway...)


ieolus
Support The Clecs

join:2001-06-19
Duluth, GA
reply to calvoiper

Uhh, you ARE paying too much for century old technology... what do you think runs in that modern car of yours and ran in that Model-T... an internal combustion engine.
--
"Speak for yourself "Chadmaster" - lesopp



RadioDoc
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11
La Grange, IL
kudos:2

Not to mention that ancient electricity.
--
Toolmaster of La Grange.



ieolus
Support The Clecs

join:2001-06-19
Duluth, GA

Yes, good retort but do you really think that 100+ years later noone has or could invent something better, cleaner, more efficient to run automobiles than the internal combustion engine based off of fossil fuels? Come on...
--
"Speak for yourself "Chadmaster" - lesopp



RadioDoc
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11
La Grange, IL
kudos:2

I thought we were having fun here. Sorry to laugh during your church service.

Sheesh.

Loosen up.
--
Toolmaster of La Grange.



ieolus
Support The Clecs

join:2001-06-19
Duluth, GA

Sorry, easy to miscontrue replies on here. Loose now.
--
"Speak for yourself "Chadmaster" - lesopp



RadioDoc
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11
La Grange, IL
kudos:2


rradina

join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO

1 recommendation

reply to dentman42

I guess my experience has been different. I live in St. Louis and four times over the past nine months we experienced power outages that for some, lasted up to a week. (Twice last summer because of wind storms and twice this past winter due to ice storms. The local utility is in the frying pan because they have not been trimming the trees!)

Luckily only the last outage affected my house. I lost power for three days in early January due to an ice storm. I have Vonage as the primary line and it automatically forwards to my wife's cell when it's down. We always had service even though hundreds of thousands of customers in the area were also without power. I have to assume some or most were also relying on their cell phones.

After the first day network congestion may have been eased due to the temperature (20s) and duration of the outage. Some folks were forced to leave their home and stay with relatives and friends. Luckily we have a gas fireplace in our basement. Amazingly, it kept the entire house warm -- 85 in the basement, 70 on the first floor and 62 on the second floor.

Generators were instantly sold out so I bought a power inverter for the car that provided 400watts. Enough for a couple lamps and 14" TV. I was stunned that we never lost analog cable! I even hooked the cable modem up to my laptop and it worked!



calvoiper

join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
reply to dentman42

No, I'm saying just because YOU PERSONALLY do not need or desire something is no reason to think it is worthless or a bad business idea.

calvoiper
--
VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies!


patcat88

join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
kudos:1
reply to ieolus

said by ieolus:

Yes, good retort but do you really think that 100+ years later noone has or could invent something better, cleaner, more efficient to run automobiles than the internal combustion engine based off of fossil fuels? Come on...
Incumbants protecting themselves......


T1 Rocky

join:2002-11-15
Dallas, TX
reply to calvoiper

said by calvoiper:

You want to keep paying too much for century old technology? Fine. Quit bitching about the rest of us who prefer to drive modern cars instead of Model T's.

calvoiper
Listen here sonny, my telegraph has gotten me along just fine. So you and the Kaiser just go back to Russia you commies!

But seriously, I couldn't agree more. Even if your not on the edge of technology you should still be in favor of it. Verizon and the phone companies have spent the last 15 years spending literally BILLIONS lobbying the government to tax phone lines and then the phone companies collect those taxes. Think about it. The phone line to your house is $5 worth of copper that was rolled out 30 years ago. And how much are you paying for that line? After taxes probably $25 per month not including long distance. And they probably havent been to your house in or serviced that line for 10 years right? What's their return on investment on that?

That's what happens when there is no competition. Now that VOIP has come along they realize that they have shot themselves in the foot. By getting the govnt to "force" them to collect all of those taxes, their copper line can not compete with VOIP.

Plus the technology of voip offers a very promising future. It's really disgusting that Verizon has lobbied so extensively that they can snuff out technologies now just to preserve their monopoly. When was the last time a piece of legislation or a court ruling was not in their favor? I guarantee its been more than 10 years.

Time4aNAP
Premium
join:2007-04-09
Des Plaines, IL
reply to CylonRed

said by CylonRed:

To get decent VOIP I would have to upgrade my DSL and spend more money per month...
Holy carp, just how slow is your DSL service? Codecs have improved a lot since the original 56kbps ISDN service came out. If your DSL service is slower than the slowest BRI, then you need to go shopping! Maybe what you're getting is free. If that's the case, consider the cost of monthly POTS compared to the cost of the lowest tier of pay-for DSL service. Surely you can find one that's a better deal than $50 a month for just a dial tone?

And what about cable?

...I would have to get a UPS to keep the router and VOIP hardware running during a power outage (hopefully it is short)
From what I've read on these pages, some of the bundled VoIP services have hardware with built-in battery backup. You could look into that option, or spend the princely sum of $30 for APC's smallest UPS (even less for other brands).

Don't you have a UPS for your computer? Seems to me that anyone who experiences frequent power outages would be wise to spend a few bucks protecting their big electronic investments from all of the transients that come down the AC line every time power goes out, and every time it's restored. A true cheapskate isn't penny wise and pound foolish!

...and heaven forbid my CLEC has any issue that causes the line to go down...
That would leave you SOL when it comes to POTS too. What's your point?

I personally do NOT trust the 911 service as well and with 2 young kids - that is a deal breaker for me.
I don't see what your beef with 911 services has to do with this.

It is beginning to look like you simply aren't ready to move up to the 19th century, with its newfangled electricity and telephony. That's your right. But isn't it a little ironic that you're using a 21st century Internet to rail against them?

Not to mention - I would not save huge amounts - we don't do a lot of long distance calling and if I do then it is on the cell.
Whoa there! Back up a minute. You have a cellphone? All this time, you've been dreaming up ways that VoIP could leave you stranded, and you own a cellphone???

Oh brother!

I smell a mega-Bell shill...


CylonRed
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County

My dsl is 1.5 down and 384 up and I also game online.

TW will not ever get my business again - ever if I have anything to say about it for many reasons...

I have no UPS for my PC - hell - most of the outlets are not grounded and I have yet to lose a PC due to a power outage in the 8 years we have been here.

We have NEVER had out pots go out during a blackout. The ONLY time it has gone out is when we had an internal line issue. I will be ready when teh problems I have with it can be solved.

And yet as I mentioned there are places were cell phones DON'T work and they have to be powered as well - nice selective reading there as this point was alredy made by me.

911 sometimes works for cells and VOIP - it has to work 100% of the time when I call - that is they have to know where the call is coming from and the 911 on POTs does just that. There have been issues in the past with VOIP and cell 911 (recent article about it as well - issues with cell phone 911) and with 2 small kids - it is unacceptable that maybe it will work with cell or VOIP when I alredy have somethign that works 100%
--
Brian

"Some people are like Slinkies...
Not really good for anything......
But they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs."


Time4aNAP
Premium
join:2007-04-09
Des Plaines, IL
reply to ieolus

said by ieolus:

...do you really think that 100+ years later noone has or could invent something better, cleaner, more efficient to run automobiles than the internal combustion engine based off of fossil fuels?
Many people have come up with numerous alternatives. AFAIK none are more efficient, few are truly cleaner, and the consumer market has been unwilling to accept the higher costs and certain shortcomings that they have, compared to the internal combustion engine.

"You know, everyone complains about the weather but nobody does anything about it."

Time4aNAP
Premium
join:2007-04-09
Des Plaines, IL
reply to CylonRed

said by CylonRed:

My dsl is 1.5 down and 384 up and I also game online.
So in fact you do not need to upgrade your DSL service to be able to use VoIP. Strike one.

I have no UPS for my PC - hell - most of the outlets are not grounded and I have yet to lose a PC due to a power outage in the 8 years we have been here.
That means that statistically, your computer is due for a total failure. Is it me, or are you actually proud of the poor condition of your home wiring?

We have NEVER had out pots go out during a blackout. The ONLY time it has gone out is when we had an internal line issue.
That same local loop that also carries your DSL has remained rock-solid, despite your alarmist claim. Strike two.

And yet as I mentioned there are places were cell phones DON'T work and they have to be powered as well - nice selective reading there as this point was alredy made by me.
When you neglect to maintain your home wiring, neglect to keep your cellphone charged, neglect to prepare for any adverse conditions, it's not any fault in VoIP technology.

And when you say "there are places were cell phones DON'T work", are you implying that your home has some ability to move into those places? Before, you cited your cellphone as a perfectly suitable alternative to other home phone service for long-distance calls. Strike three.

911 sometimes works for cells and VOIP...
...and POTS. Your local 911 call center is the same one for all 911 calls. Strike four.

...it has to work 100% of the time...
That's a mighty tall order in a world where 99.999% (five nines) is considered the best available. For someone who will not buy a UPS or improve his home's wiring to at least make it meet minimum safety standards, your unrealistic expectations are doubly ironic.

...that is they have to know where the call is coming from and the 911 on POTs does just that.
News flash: 911 call centers don't use POTS! They use big fat trunk circuits that are most certainly multiplexed digitally, and most probably fiber-based.

My money says that what you're really trying to do is infer that POTS is the only phone service capable of relaying your location to the 911 call center. That is patently false. VoIP providers also know where you live. And unlike wireline phone companies, they allow you to modify the address as needed. So when your house goes on another trip, you can update your location.

Cellular does one better. They allow the 911 call center to take the GPS coordinates that your phone sends them, and dispatch emergency services to your exact location. So even when your home is in transit from place to place, they can still locate you. Strike five.

...and with 2 small kids...
That appeal to sentiment has worn through already. I hope that these kids are fictitious, for their sake.

I alredy have somethign that works 100%
No, you don't. Strike six.


CylonRed
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County

4 edits

Actually - I do have something that works 100% - sorry to burst your bubble and my kids are just fine... I don't believe VOIP continues to work when there is no modem working on the line and no internet connection

Glad it works for YOU right now - for me - it does not. More power to you if it does. You may not deem them to be valid but - you are not me and I am not you - neat eh? VOIP is still in its infancy and I generally do not jump on the infancy stages - I think those that have Vonage are sweating that detail right now.

»www.ironwooddailyglobe.com/0502e911.htm
»www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/20···s-06.asp - at least they are up to 70%...

quote:
"Location accuracy varies depending on cellular providers, location of cellular callers and the technology cellular providers use, he said.

Many students said they had never worried about it.

"I always thought they could locate you if you had that GPS option," said Andrew Naderi (senior-life science)."
»www.ky3.com/news/7294191.html - Missouri has issues in both cell and land but thankfully I don't live there.

»www.kfoxtv.com/news/13238711/det···psp=news

Thankfully cell 911 has no issues and it is nearly perfect...

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voip
quote:
Emergency calls

The nature of IP makes it difficult to locate network users geographically. Emergency calls, therefore, cannot easily be routed to a nearby call center, and are impossible on some VoIP systems. Sometimes, VoIP systems may route emergency calls to a non-emergency phone line at the intended department. In the US, at least one major police department has strongly objected to this practice as potentially endangering the public.[3]

Moreover, in the event that the caller is unable to give an address, emergency services may be unable to locate them in any other way. Following the lead of mobile phone operators, several VoIP carriers are already implementing a technical work-around. For instance, one large VoIP carrier requires the registration of the physical address where the VoIP line will be used. When you dial the emergency number for your country, they will route it to the appropriate local system. They also maintain their own emergency call center that will take non-routable emergency calls (made, for example, from a software based service that is not tied to any particular physical location) and then will manually route your call once learning your physical location.

The United States government had set a deadline, requiring VoIP carriers to implement E911; however, the deadline is being appealed by several of the leading VoIP companies.
If you have proof that none of the above items are issues with VOIP or cell - please provide links and proof please.

You also seem to be under the impression that I do not ever plan on getting VOIP - it is something I look at every now and then and re-evaluate. Major problem is - it will not save me bundles of money - my land line phone is $39-41/month including long distance - if I got VOIP via my ISP - I could save almost $5/month. I can get a lot bigger bang for the buck by paying off school loans and car loans faster and saving more when grocery shopping.
--
Brian

"Some people are like Slinkies...
Not really good for anything......
But they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs."

Time4aNAP
Premium
join:2007-04-09
Des Plaines, IL

said by CylonRed:

Actually - I do have something that works 100% - sorry to burst your bubble
Actually it's your bubble. You're the one claiming to have 100% uptime. And after admitting two whole weeks of downtime, no less! Your success as a con artist is far below 100%.

I don't believe VOIP continues to work when there is no modem working on the line and no internet connection
I don't believe that POTS continues to work when the local loop is severed.

Glad it works for YOU right now - for me - it does not.
Obviously it doesn't work when you don't have it.

It's one thing to speak from experience. Your talking points don't carry that authority.

VOIP is still in its infancy...
Your "infant" is a teenager now. In Internet years, that's quite mature.

I think those that have Vonage are sweating (alleged "infancy" of VoIP) right now.
So sorry to ruin your attempt at misdirection, but there's this Verizon v. Vonage litigation...ever hear of it? Because you're posting right in the middle of a discussion of the same.

(No, I'm not going to waste my time on those cherry-picked, non-authoritative, misleading and out-of-date citations.)


CylonRed
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County

1 edit

I never claimed 2 weeks of no phone (POTS service) - obviously I was NOT referring to my internet connection since I am not using it for the phone.

I can't remember the last time in my 40+ years that the POTS line where I lived was severed. Certainly not in the last 20 years...

And yet we have 2 different locations, ISP's, LILEC/CLEC/cable companies/systems but you want to tell me my experience will be yours - sorry - I don't buy that. Yes - I can say with the knowledge I have - it does not work for me right now. You do not have the authority to tell me any different since I am not you and vice versa.

Teen? Nah - not to the consumer.

No misdirection and yes - I know where I am posting. I have a former co-worker sweating out if he will have Vonage at the end of the year

Out of date? All recent stories and I like the fact you don't want to bother - tells me everything I need to know right there.
--
Brian

"Some people are like Slinkies...
Not really good for anything......
But they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs."


Time4aNAP
Premium
join:2007-04-09
Des Plaines, IL
reply to rradina

In Chicago, the heat has been the thing that has triggered failures in ComEd's infrastructure, much of which dates back to the 1930s, and has been neglected for a long time. We would lose power in my neighborhood on hot days, when a million high-rise dwellers would return from work to their oven-hot apartments, crank up the A/C, turn on the big screen TV and start cooking in the microwave. The 80-year-old buried cables would overheat, melt their lead sheaths, short out and set the rubber insulation on fire.

For reasons unknown, one leg of our building's 3-phase would have ~90V on it although the other two were dead. I used to plug my A/C into the AC voltage regulator that I used for my stereo (which boosted 90V to 120V), and stay nice and cool all night. No cable, but DSL worked fine.


Time4aNAP
Premium
join:2007-04-09
Des Plaines, IL
reply to CylonRed

Looks like you're out of excuses, CylonRed. And frankly, your attempts to BS your way out of the corner that you painted yourself into are pitiful.

Sorry, Mr. Verizon Shill, but this Vonage customer isn't fooled by your scare tactics. Unlike ye olde monopoly, I have my pick of VoIP providers. So even if your masters succeed in killing one, there are plenty to take its place.

Let Verizon sue. Every new suit increases the possibility that the case will go before a judge who will notice that the Verizon patents amount to simple database queries. When that day comes, I'll be laughing all the way to the bank.



WiFi
It's In The Air

join:2002-06-06
NiagaraFalls
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
reply to rradina

said by rradina:

I hear the UPS thing all the time. If you have a cell phone, quit worrying about power outages.
Uh, excuse me??? I guess you didn't see the news this past week about the twister that leveled a town in Kansas. The authorities' rescue management was severely hampered because all cell sites in the area had been destroyed, the state police's own communications system was disabled in that area. So don't say if there is a power outage not to worry if you have a cell. You might also remember on 11Sep01 that not only did the Internet go down but almost every cell and other communication system in North America became overloaded. Hey, and we HAD power.
OK, so now I get to stand on my little soapbox - HURRAY FOR HAM RADIO OPS (like me)
--
Type slowwwwwwer.....I can't keep up!