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Subtropical Times, Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday »
« 215 91 closed, recycling plant fire in RV  
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aztecnology
O Rly?
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join:2003-02-12
Murrieta, CA
·Verizon FIOS

reply to sholling
Re: Homeowners: Mortgage Interest, Property Tax & Uncle Sam

said by sholling See Profile :

said by aztecnology See Profile :

Supply will keep rents in check...
Which is why rents in Orange and LA counties are going up 8-9% an year?
Sure, heretofore, but that won't continue...
--
"Independent thinkers tend to ALWAYS have someone not agreeing with them. It's The non-thinkers that always come in legions." John Callari .:|:. Say no to the IRS Yes to the Fair Tax


sholling
Premium
join:2002-02-13
Hemet, CA

said by aztecnology See Profile :

said by sholling See Profile :

said by aztecnology See Profile :

Supply will keep rents in check...
Which is why rents in Orange and LA counties are going up 8-9% an year?
Sure, heretofore, but that won't continue...
So with vacancy rates below 4% and almost no new apartment construction in decades rents will plummet? I think that with the continuing massive influx of immigrants adding to the population, plus with the propensity of humans to reproduce filling rental housing faster than it can be built that you will see at least 5-10% increases for the foreseeable future.
--
"Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
--FREDERIC BASTIAT--


aztecnology
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said by sholling See Profile :

So with vacancy rates below 4% and almost no new apartment construction in decades rents will plummet? I think that with the continuing massive influx of immigrants adding to the population, plus with the propensity of humans to reproduce filling rental housing faster than it can be built that you will see at least 5-10% increases for the foreseeable future.
Rents decreasing, rents flat - yes, rents plummeting, not my words.

It doesn't specifically have to be apartments, condos and SFR's all equal housing units, and the total supply is increasing, on top of the tremendous vacant supply that already exists...
--
"Independent thinkers tend to ALWAYS have someone not agreeing with them. It's The non-thinkers that always come in legions." John Callari .:|:. Say no to the IRS Yes to the Fair Tax


jig

join:2001-01-05
Hacienda Heights, CA
no it's not.


aztecnology
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Murrieta, CA
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reply to aztecnology
said by aztecnology See Profile :

said by sholling See Profile :

So with vacancy rates below 4% and almost no new apartment construction in decades rents will plummet? I think that with the continuing massive influx of immigrants adding to the population, plus with the propensity of humans to reproduce filling rental housing faster than it can be built that you will see at least 5-10% increases for the foreseeable future.
Rents decreasing, rents flat - yes, rents plummeting, not my words.

It doesn't specifically have to be apartments, condos and SFR's all equal housing units, and the total supply is increasing, on top of the tremendous vacant supply that already exists...
said by jig See Profile :

no it's not.
I was catching up on John Lansners real estate blog this morning, and he had a quick tidbit on Orange County rents from 6/7...

'Pretty dramatic' cooling of growth hits O.C. rents

"Rent tracker Axiometrics has a stunning stat out: Its measure of rents at large O.C. apartment complexes shows what it calls "effective rent" -- typical rents minus typical concessions -- growing at 2.5 percent a year in this second quarter vs. 7.2 percent a year ago. A "pretty dramatic" drop, says Axiometrics' Ron Johnsey. (Without concessions, rent hikes fell from 9.3 percent to 4.7 percent in a year!) Factors behind what amounts to landlords losing two-thirds of their pricing power, in Johnsey's eyes, are: slower job growth, cutting renter's ability to pay; a surge in new apartment building, boosting competition; and growing counts of vacant homes being rented out, extra competition. Axiometrics tracks 70,000 units in O.C. It found 4.4 percent of those units vacant in this quarter vs. 3.9 percent a year ago".

»blogs.ocregister.com/lansner/arc···c_1.html

»www.aptresearch.com/news/Early_E···mary.pdf

Also the 10 year treasury is climbing, along with long term mortgage rates, and with an increase in mortgage resets about to take place, this should get even more interestin...
--
"Independent thinkers tend to ALWAYS have someone not agreeing with them. It's The non-thinkers that always come in legions." John Callari .:|:. Say no to the IRS Yes to the Fair Tax


jig

join:2001-01-05
Hacienda Heights, CA

interesting news, but i still don't buy the surge in new apartment building.

and a drop in increasing rental rates is not a plummet in rental price.

call me when the prices (not the growth rate) drops.
--
A man compounded of law and gospel is able to cheat a whole country with his religion and then destroy them under color of law. -Ben Franklin


aztecnology
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Murrieta, CA
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said by jig See Profile :

interesting news, but i still don't buy the surge in new apartment building.

and a drop in increasing rental rates is not a plummet in rental price.

call me when the prices (not the growth rate) drops.
Increases in apartments is only part of the increase in total supply. We still have a couple million vacant houses in this country in additon to the new housing units that are coming online. If the trend continues it will be fairly soon that the rent increases will stop...
--
"Independent thinkers tend to ALWAYS have someone not agreeing with them. It's The non-thinkers that always come in legions." John Callari .:|:. Say no to the IRS Yes to the Fair Tax


aztecnology
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reply to jig
Here's some video from CNBC this morning on housing and the economy...

»www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=3···4&play=1

And some Peter Schiff from 10 days ago...

»www.europac.net/Schiff-CNBC-6-1-07_lg.asp


jig

join:2001-01-05
Hacienda Heights, CA

fun to watch, but i didn't get much out of it.

america as a consumer can still function if a bunch of people want to come to america to consume (and they do). america is also leveraging WIPO so that our main export, research and development, gets compensated rather than acquired... though that's at the pleasure of the other governments.

sticking with housing in southern cal... until there is a real drop in demand, and i don't mean just a petering out of buying power, the prices aren't going to drop appreciably. same thing with rent. the most they'll do is slightly correct along with buying power.

now, if the war ends and the defense contracts go away (there is some evidence that they won't), and there is a recession, and jobs dry up... then we can expect a major disruption. interest rate will go up, but they aren't going to balloon to historic highs.
--
A man compounded of law and gospel is able to cheat a whole country with his religion and then destroy them under color of law. -Ben Franklin


aztecnology
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Murrieta, CA
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said by jig See Profile :

fun to watch, but i didn't get much out of it.
...

Some more sobering news today...

»www.cnbc.com/id/191777

america as a consumer can still function if a bunch of people want to come to america to consume (and they do).
If you're referring to immigrants and minimum wage workers, I hardly see how that will buoy the economy. We already have 1 foot in the recession bucket with paltry GDP #'s in the 1st quarter and the inverted yield curve of the past year, almost w/o exception tells us that we are headed for recession. The 2nd quarter #'s along with continued downward #'s from retailers will clearly tell us if the American consumer is on the ropes...

america is also leveraging WIPO so that our main export, research and development, gets compensated rather than acquired... though that's at the pleasure of the other governments.
lol, our main export is consumer spending (70% GDP) courtesy of foreign central banks buying our treasuries (especially China) and interest rates have to continue to rise to attract their money.

"The Dow Jones industrials plunged more than 100 points after the yield on the 10-year Treasury note soared as high as 5.27 percent, a five-year high. The climb in bond yields exacerbated jitters about mortgage rates rising, which could hurt the already sluggish housing market, and about the Federal Reserve hiking interest rates, which would slow down corporate deal-making".

»www.cnbc.com/id/5965814/for/cnbc/

sticking with housing in southern cal... until there is a real drop in demand, and i don't mean just a petering out of buying power, the prices aren't going to drop appreciably. same thing with rent. the most they'll do is slightly correct along with buying power.
The problem is that the remaining demand can't afford the current prices, even the demand of the last 5 years can't afford their homes which is why foreclosures and inventory are steadily climbing.

Not to mention the pull back in easy credit that is currently taking place. In an era of historical low interest rates people were buying house they couldn't afford, houses they never intended to live in (specuvestors/flippers turned floppers).

It's one thing to afford a $500k house with a 1.95% start rate, it's something else when that loan resets to 6.5% (prime borrower)...

Today's rates

Today | 6.79% | 6.49% | 6.10%

»www.hsh.com/mtghst.html

now, if the war ends and the defense contracts go away (there is some evidence that they won't), and there is a recession, and jobs dry up... then we can expect a major disruption.
I think you'll see that all these things will combine for the disruption, and not a single factor alone...

interest rate will go up, but they aren't going to balloon to historic highs.
We definitely agree on this, however they don't need to go to historic highs to cause problems. In this era of historic low rates any moderate rise is going to put the hurt on the consumer.

Like mentioned earlier, home prices are reverting to the mean (they always do), over 50% of home purchases and refi's in CA of the last several years were ARM's which will reset over the coming years.

All these things combined don't look too good right now...
--
"Independent thinkers tend to ALWAYS have someone not agreeing with them. It's The non-thinkers that always come in legions." John Callari .:|:. Say no to the IRS Yes to the Fair Tax


Kibbles
Premium
join:1999-07-31
Mission Viejo, CA

Well I just signed up for a 7/1 ARM at 7% with a 19k pre-payment penalty...amount financed is 556k...it was appraised at 696k....a realtor already wants to sell it for 850k. two months ago another realtor wanted to put it up for sale for 699k.
I don't know about the rest of the markets...but it seems that if you have a house or are purchasing one it is best to "ride" out the slump...but try to buy it as low as possible.

I watched those two videos...it seems no one really knows what will happen with the economy and housing market next year...btw I was told Lending Tree recently laid off close to 400 employee's...the person working on my mortgage at Lending Tree said at least it isn't 1,300 being laid off.


aztecnology
O Rly?
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join:2003-02-12
Murrieta, CA
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said by Kibbles See Profile :

btw I was told Lending Tree recently laid off close to 400 employee's...the person working on my mortgage at Lending Tree said at least it isn't 1,300 being laid off.
»ml-implode.com/
--
"Independent thinkers tend to ALWAYS have someone not agreeing with them. It's The non-thinkers that always come in legions." John Callari .:|:. Say no to the IRS Yes to the Fair Tax


jig

join:2001-01-05
Hacienda Heights, CA

reply to aztecnology
said by aztecnology See Profile :

In this era of historic low rates any moderate rise is going to put the hurt on the consumer.
but it'll be a good hurt. deserved, anyway.

and by people coming here to spend, i wasn't talking about workers, just vacationers and retirees. there's a lot of money dumped here just because people want to come here (the US).

i'd love to see a huge recession... i just don't think the various pressures are going to allow for one.
--
A man compounded of law and gospel is able to cheat a whole country with his religion and then destroy them under color of law. -Ben Franklin


Kibbles
Premium
join:1999-07-31
Mission Viejo, CA

said by jig See Profile :

said by aztecnology See Profile :

In this era of historic low rates any moderate rise is going to put the hurt on the consumer.
but it'll be a good hurt. deserved, anyway.

and by people coming here to spend, i wasn't talking about workers, just vacationers and retirees. there's a lot of money dumped here just because people want to come here (the US).

i'd love to see a huge recession... i just don't think the various pressures are going to allow for one.
Actually the realtors are part of the problem....each home sale the price goes up 3-6%...I remember in the late 80's and around 93 a house would resell three times in a year and end up reselling the fourth time 150k more than it did a year before....no value was added..and it did not take long for that same house to drop 150k in value.

If we had a huge recession a lot of large websites like this one would loose a lot of traffic and revenue...and shut down or become a subscription site.


FutureMon
OW My Eyes
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join:2000-10-05
Colorado Springs, CO
clubs:

Here's an article the local "sales" team provided me today. It's supposedly going out in the next Century 21 Magazine some time next week.
said by Mark and Al - Century 21 Realtor Article :
State of the Market
Cooling market and rising interest rates; is the window of opportunity closing for both buyers and sellers?

With recent economic factors having a significant impact on the real estate market both buyers and sellers want to know how they will be impacted. Each is hoping the market is tilting in their favor; but who will have the upper hand? First we’ll look at some of those factors and then we’ll discuss the way we see them impacting both sides. Amongst the factors we’ll discuss are inventory, foreclosure rates, availability (or lack of availability) of loans, interest rates, trends, local market statistics, as well as some of the perceptions we have experienced from both buyers and sellers. For the purposes of this publication we’ll attempt to be as concise as possible, (as hard as it is for us), so for those of you needing more detailed answers or having further questions, we absolutely invite your calls and emails!

Inventory: We track the local inventory carefully and with the exception of a slight decrease from late last year through February 2007 inventory has steadily increased for several years, and with the loss of the “sub-prime” loan programs, (as discussed in our previous issues), we noticed a spike in inventory during March which hasn’t let up. For example, as of early June 2007 the inventory of homes for sale in Covina, Glendora, and Claremont have increased 35-40% above the levels of late February.

Foreclosures: Reports indicate that during the first quarter of 2007 mortgage lenders in California sent out the highest number of default notices in a decade. With so many properties in default it appears that more property will soon be on the market.

Loans: Although there are many loans available for those with great credit and a sizeable down-payment, the availability of loans for those with low credit scores, difficult to document income, or little to zero down-payment are much harder to obtain.

Interest Rates: The buyers that can obtain a loan are beginning to see an increase in interest rates and in fact interest rates for the standard fixed-rate loan have increased approximately ½ percent since the beginning of April.

Trends: According to recent reports from the California Association of Realtor, home sales statewide decreased by 27.8% in April as compared with the same period a year ago. C.A.R.’s unsold inventory index for April was 10 months (almost double that of a year earlier). The National Association of Realtors trimmed its sales forecast for the forth straight month and said it now expected prices would drop more than previously forecast.

Local statistics: Our local Multiple Listing Service reported a) The highest number of homes for sale in 8 years, b) The monthly supply of homes doubling from the same period last year to 13.2 months, and c) An increase of over 46% in the average number of days on the market to 79 days.

Although a lot of the recent news and statistics may not be happy news, we are pleased to see that some of the big boys and the media are finally fessing up to the realities and trends of the market. (Trends and statistics that we have been reporting to our customers for the past 2-3 years!)

So, as promised, let’s take a look at the implications of the above on both buyers and sellers;

Sellers…
Many sellers are in denial and have yet to realize that it has become a buyer’s market. They seem to keep hoping there will be some miraculous reversal and return to a hot seller’s market. However, the market has been softening for at least two years, (locally anyway), and the fact is that a large percentage of the buyer pool simply evaporated after March because of the drastic changes to the home mortgage market. This coupled with the many other factors discussed above force sellers to price competitively or risk lingering on the market with little or no chance of selling. We don’t anticipate any price increases in the foreseeable future. Over-pricing now will simply add one more un-saleable listing to the existing over-supply of inventory. However, sellers willing to price competitively can sell, and even with the over-supply of inventory certain property types will garner a lot of interest and even multiple offers, just not like 3 to 5 years ago. A good agent with many years of experience, (we recommend at least 10 years selling a minimum of 20 homes per year), can best advise you where to price and if your property is of the type that will generate a lot of interest. Sellers that have equity and looking to buy another home should not hesitate as any loss they may actually incur or perceive will be made up by the seller on their replacement purchase. In general, our best advice to a seller that doesn’t have a strong desire or need to sell is simply not to list their home for sale at the present time.

Buyers…
Some buyers have been sitting and waiting for an opportunity to buy low and save money. That window is closing fast! Don’t expect interest rates to do a u-turn and improve real soon, and it could get worse before it gets better. With interest rates on the rise waiting may actually cost a buyer more! Prices may soften further but by waiting to purchase, the cost of owning a home with higher payments caused by increasing interest rates could cost a buyer thousands! Furthermore, although most buyers we talk to think prices will drop further, wanting that to happen doesn’t guarantee that they will! Buyers should consider that on an average priced home a buyer may need to see values drop another $50,000 just to break even, so delaying a purchase now probably doesn’t make financial sense. First-time buyers should be motivated even further by calculating how much money they are throwing away on rent and having no tax write off. There are many homes to choose from and it is a buyer’s market. That being said, buyers should not get too cocky or aggressive with their offers when they see a home they really like, because as mentioned in the seller’s commentary, there are certain property types that will continue to receive multiple offers. Again, this is where the advice of an experienced and trustworthy agent can be the difference between success and failure. In general, our best advice to a buyer is to buy now, play safe and secure a good fixed rate loan, and then plan to enjoy the property until the market gets back into another upward cycle; it’s simply a matter of time.

*Investors (large multi-unit apartments, commercial, retail, office space, etc)…
These markets move and react differently than the single family home market, have totally different financing options, and need to be evaluated by an expert. To discuss your options in these arenas contact Al Jafarkani, our resident expert with over 20 years of experience.

Today’s market is extremely complex! We are absolutely committed to providing the best advice and information to each individual customer given their situation and goals. We will continue to bring you valuable information and our market insights. We need your continued support and referrals and we earnestly invite your questions and feedback. Please keep them coming!


--
Undisputed BBR Karaoke Champion! Care to challenge me?


No_Strings
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reply to jig
said by jig See Profile :

i'd love to see a huge recession... i just don't think the various pressures are going to allow for one.
What the hell good would that do? Why would you wish for millions to be thrown out of work and for any of your long-term investments to take a hit?

I'm all for moderation in housing prices. An inflated speculative market (housing or otherwise) can't be sustained and while a few profit, the overall benefit is dubious. I'd rather see modest, sustained growth. That's just a personal preference, though.

But I sure as heck don't want to see the economy hit a wall and take out the bottom rung of the wage ladder in the process.


aztecnology
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reply to FutureMon
That's good info, i'm glad Century21 is telling it like it is. Also as rates continue to rise affordability will keep shrinking, especially in the subprime market. People are going to be in shock when they start getting quotes of 8%-12% for their first mortgage rates.

With our negative savings rate, most first time buyers are finding 100% loans all but gone, and not having 5%-10% for down payments is going to continue to push home prices down further...
--
"Independent thinkers tend to ALWAYS have someone not agreeing with them. It's The non-thinkers that always come in legions." John Callari .:|:. Say no to the IRS Yes to the Fair Tax


Kibbles
Premium
join:1999-07-31
Mission Viejo, CA

reply to FutureMon
I guess it is a good time to buy...bad time to sell and if someone could get financing in the past is out of luck.

Has anyone seen any data regarding sales of appliances,groceries,moving companies and so on...with all the foreclosures going on I wonder are those people renting,leasing,moving in with relatives?


jig

join:2001-01-05
Hacienda Heights, CA

reply to No_Strings
said by No_Strings See Profile :

What the hell good would that do?
my hope is that it would force the general public to switch their priorities around to where some of the more entrenched inefficiencies of government and social infrastructure would be... excised. i think a lot of irresponsible borrowers need to have their actions checked, and i don't know of a good way for that to reach high enough to cause change without it being a pretty big recession.

New Orleans is (now) a bit of an experiment on this very topic: if things get really bad and there is a general failure or crisis, can a rebuilding effort be created by our current society (us) that constructs a more solid structure on the ashes of what came before?

granted, NO is teaching us, so far, that the answer is no, but maybe CA is different enough from LA that we can't draw a clear conclusion, then again, any general housing recession might hit the los angeles area harder than anywhere else in the US, and maybe what NO teaches us is that if a crisis is too localized, the rest of the country couldn't give a rat's ass.

anyway, point being: you try the socratic method only for so long before you start itching for the clue bat. a recession might be the perfect swing.
--
A man compounded of law and gospel is able to cheat a whole country with his religion and then destroy them under color of law. -Ben Franklin


No_Strings
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I'm not getting your point.

A free market addresses most of ills you mention.

"Irresponsible" borrowers lose their investments.
Lenders who take on too much risk lose money.
Investors in REITs or lenders lose share value.

What governmental inefficiencies would be excised by a recession? What individual priorities would be changed? People need to earn a living, eat, buy a home and save for the future. Governments need to self-sustain. Recession = less money for both = more debt for all and more hardship for those least able/willing to cope.

Not sure how New Orleans fits into this at all. The feds, along with state & local, are subsidizing the rebuilding of the economy to regain the tax revenue stream. Investors and local business people are putting money into rebuilding in the hope of getting a return on the investment. Homeowners are putting their own money into rebuilding just to have a place to live and because it's home.

The only way to build a more solid structure is to not build on swampy land below sea level.
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