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Redshirt 24
Premium
join:2003-08-08
Plano, TX
 ·Verizon FIOS
| So I want to get my attic insulated... ...well, probably more like need to get it insulated--and it's overdue as well, since I had the air handler (and connected hard ducts--in retrospect, I should have left the damn thing alone for another couple of years) in my house replaced last year. Can someone point me at a reasonably reputable/decent local company to get an expectedly costly quote from?
(Sake of reference: this is for a 1300-odd square foot house, one-story, vaulted attic. The way it's designed, though, part of the attic skips around the living room and covers the garage.)
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Genoa City Limits: Y&R from the outside, looking in. | |
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Dogwood
Premium
join:2001-01-14
Texas
clubs: 
| Re: So I want to get my attic insulated... I just had insulation blown in over my garage by Stark Air.
The area was about 650 SqFt with and they charge me $550 to cover that 8" deep.
The stuff they used is, of course fire retardant, but also does not make you itch like fiberglass does.
They were quick, professional, did a very good job, and did it exactly like I had asked them too.
They are in Euless, but I'm sure they go up your way.
817-633-2665
and
972-263-7766
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Proud Member of Team Discovery | |
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twojciac
join:2003-05-22
Sachse, TX
| Re: So I want to get my attic insulated... Does anyone have any personal reviews of spray on radiant barrier paint? I have a feeling that it's a scam with negligble benefits. I'd rather do the foil based barrier applied to the rafters, but then I'd have to look at putting in ridge vents... so it's even more work involved.
Or am I better off blowing in another 6-8 inches of insulation? I have R38, but it's settled in some places. | |
| | Bilbo8
join:2007-05-08
Irving, TX
| Most places don't recommend insulation over the garage or any space that is not heated or cooled. The insulation keeps heat from moving from the hot space to the cooler (less hot) space. Generally, you want the heat to move out of your garage in the summer, especially after you have just parked your car after a hot drive. Of course, this works better with plenty of ventelation in the attic.
Bilbo | |
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Redshirt 24
Premium
join:2003-08-08
Plano, TX
·Verizon FIOS
| Re: So I want to get my attic insulated... said by Bilbo8  :Most places don't recommend insulation over the garage or any space that is not heated or cooled. The insulation keeps heat from moving from the hot space to the cooler (less hot) space. Generally, you want the heat to move out of your garage in the summer, especially after you have just parked your car after a hot drive. Of course, this works better with plenty of ventilation in the attic. Never heard that, myself...not that I'd be complaining that much if it's correct, though, since that chops a nice chunk off the relevant square footage I'd need to get done...
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Genoa City Limits: Y&R from the outside, looking in. | |
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Dogwood
Premium
join:2001-01-14
Texas
clubs:
| Re: So I want to get my attic insulated... said by Redshirt 24 :said by Bilbo8 :Most places don't recommend insulation over the garage or any space that is not heated or cooled. The insulation keeps heat from moving from the hot space to the cooler (less hot) space. Generally, you want the heat to move out of your garage in the summer, especially after you have just parked your car after a hot drive. Of course, this works better with plenty of ventilation in the attic. Never heard that, myself...not that I'd be complaining that much if it's correct, though, since that chops a nice chunk off the relevant square footage I'd need to get done... Yeah, that might be true for a small garage, but I have an oversized 3 car, only a car and motorcycle are parked in there, the rest is workshop.
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Proud Member of Team Discovery | |
| | | | | Bilbo8
join:2007-05-08
Irving, TX | Re: So I want to get my attic insulated... You just need a way to remove the heat from the space. An exhaust fan to the outside will work.
Bilbo | |
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menasco
@vzbi.com | Re: So I want to get my attic insulated... You want to be careful with attic fans, if it has too high of a CFM rating it can pull your cool air into the attic making your AC work harder. | |
| | | | | | | Bilbo8
join:2007-05-08
Irving, TX
| Re: So I want to get my attic insulated... Many younger people don't know what an attic fan is. Our daughter in Ft. Worth has one in her house, but it is maybe 60 years old.
I was thinking of either an exhaust fan through an outside wall, or a big circulating fan blowing the hot air out through an open garage door. With any type of eshaust system, you must have an intake to let outside air in. That should not be through an airconditioned space.
The point is, when it really gets hot, we'll sit around and complain, but we probably won't do much of anything else. | |
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warlock56
Premium
join:2002-07-31
Arlington, TX
| said by Redshirt 24 :...well, probably more like need to get it insulated--and it's overdue as well, since I had the air handler (and connected hard ducts--in retrospect, I should have left the damn thing alone for another couple of years) in my house replaced last year. Can someone point me at a reasonably reputable/decent local company to get an expectedly costly quote from? (Sake of reference: this is for a 1300-odd square foot house, one-story, vaulted attic. The way it's designed, though, part of the attic skips around the living room and covers the garage.) Am I to understand that currently your attic has zero insulation? Sir don't delay in getting some blown in (if possible) while the weather is still cool.
If you can't get it blown in...really I don't know why you couldn't, you could purchase insulation in batts from Lowes or Home Depot. Offhand though I really have no idea how much the quote will run.
quote:
Does anyone have any personal reviews of spray on radiant barrier paint? I have a feeling that it's a scam with negligble benefits. I'd rather do the foil based barrier applied to the rafters, but then I'd have to look at putting in ridge vents... so it's even more work involved.
Or am I better off blowing in another 6-8 inches of insulation? I have R38, but it's settled in some places.
Paint? Can't say I've heard of that, but I have seen the radiant barrier foil pretty much in any hardware store. Very cheap and that is the stuff you put on the rafters. It can add up to about another R-5 worth, but remember you need to make sure you still have proper ventilation.
Blown in insulation will ALWAYS settle. Many people who first get it blown in are like "Wow, I got 10 inches for only a few hundred dollars, that was a bargain." Well, give it time and it'll settle down. If you want to blow in more, it won't hurt anything. Ideally a good rule of thumb is to have your insulation levels even with the height of your joists.
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The moment the idea is admitted into society, that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. -John Adams, 1787 | |
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Redshirt 24
Premium
join:2003-08-08
Plano, TX
·Verizon FIOS
1 edit | Re: So I want to get my attic insulated... To answer your question, warlock56: the attic has some insulation, but definitely not much at all. More of a very thin lining in between the beams; I probably would never even have noticed this if I hadn't had the air handler (which was mounted directly above the main hallway in my house) replaced entirely, hard pipe and all.
I know I want to get as much blown-in insulation as I can now, but of course my cash is tight...I should have done it during the winter when I had money. Stupid, stupid git... 
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Genoa City Limits: Y&R from the outside, looking in. | |
| Bilbo8
join:2007-05-08
Irving, TX
| We had about 12 more inches blown into our attic last month by Efficient Attic System, along with the spray on radiant barrier. They have a deal with Home Depot for financing, but I'm not sure what the current deal is. We got 12 months no interest. So far, the weather has been pleasant enough that the system hasn't had to run for more than a few minutes at a time, so I guess it must work pretty good. Cost wasn't too bad and the work was done very well, but with most outfits, that depends pretty much on the crew you get.
The foil barriers on the bottom of the rafters may be more efficient, but it can be very labor intensive, depending on the configuration of your attic. imagine getting into those tight spaces out next to the eaves with all the nails hanging down over your head.
Hasn't really been warm enough to know how much effect it will have on the electric bill, but I guess we'll find out.
Bilbo | |
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twojciac
join:2003-05-22
Sachse, TX | Re: So I want to get my attic insulated... The only problem with getting insulation and radiant barrier is that if it works, you don't know which is really helping. It seems like most of the companies try to bundle these together, which makes me hesitant. | |
| | | Bilbo8
join:2007-05-08
Irving, TX
| Re: So I want to get my attic insulated... They work differently.
The radiant barrier keeps the attic cooler (relatively speaking) by preventing the heat of the sun from penetrating the roof.
The insulation keeps the house cooler by preventing the heat from the attic from penetrating into the living space.
We haven't had enough hot weather so far to make any judgment, but if each one helps a little, we should see lower electric bills this summer.
Bilbo | |
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Teasip
join:2001-05-14
Plano, TX | Square footage of area and cost please? One or two story? | |
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Redshirt 24
Premium
join:2003-08-08
Plano, TX
·Verizon FIOS
| Okay, so I got three quotes last week (turns out the house itself is 1300 square feet, not including the garage)--one from Kleen Air Services, one from Cooler Attics, and one from the acoolerhouse.com folks. A couple of them did include ancillary quotes for radiant barrier spray as well (which I'm still curious about), but for just the insulation they ranged from $500 to $1150 for depths of five to twelve inches. (It also turns out that the guys that installed my new air handler last year left some of the old hard-metal ductwork in the attic, conveniently shoved behind the new hardware. Thanks a lot, guys.)
Turns out that, in theory, I have between three and five inches of cellulose-on-top-of-some-gray-stuff insulation in the attic as it is now. Yeah, that's got to be augmented...so I'm kind of leaning towards Kleen Air's quote (under $700 for ten inches of fiberglass), but I have no idea how reputable they are...
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Genoa City Limits: Y&R from the outside, looking in. | |
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Teasip
join:2001-05-14
Plano, TX | Let us know how it goes. I'm probably in the same boat here with an 18 y/o house. | |
| | Coach P
join:2007-07-07
Plano, TX
| Re: So I want to get my attic insulated... I was in this boat a couple of months ago. I got several quotes from different places for: Radiant barrier (paint), ventilation, and insulation. I got quotes from EAS, Cooler Attics, Knotts Insulation, Garland Insulation.
They all were around the same price, EAS and Knotts were a little higher. We were pricing out for us and 2 other neighbors.
One of my neighbors called Ameritex roofing to get a quote. They said that our insulation is fine but that we needed better ventilation. So we went with them to install radiant barrier (foil material between the rafters) and a vents.
In all of my research the raidant paint blocks between 50-75% radiant heat and the foil material blocks 97%. We also added about 12 ft of ridge vent and one power vent.
They say you get your money back in about 2 years. Plus you can claim 10% up to $500 in tax credits for making your house more efficient. | |
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twojciac
join:2003-05-22
Sachse, TX
| Re: So I want to get my attic insulated... That's helpful... it's exactly what I've been thinking. The rafter foil, plus switch over to ridge vents. What was the rough charge for the work, and how large of an attic would you estimate?
I know it hasn't been very hot this summer, but have you noticed a difference in air temp up in the attic? | |
| | | | Coach P
join:2007-07-07
Plano, TX
| Re: So I want to get my attic insulated... Our house is 1900 sqft plus 2 car garage. I was roughly $2400 to do the work. Ameritex does a deal with Wells Fargo that will finance the amount for 1 year no interest.
I stuck a wireless meat thermometer up in the attic before they did the install and when we had the upper 80's temps the attic was reading around 130ish. With the barrier and vents yesterday when it was upper 90's it was only reading around 115ish. They just finished the install last week so I cant tell anything on the electric bill yet. | |
| | | | addicted2
join:2004-01-29
| Redshirt,
Here is the energy star guide to insulation:
»www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=h···on_table
For attics in Texas they recommend R-38 to R-49. I just had R-49 blown into my attic. R-49 is roughly 18 inches and runs about $1 per sq foot turnkey for white virgin fiberglass.
I used Williams Insulation. Good company and been around a long time. They can be located in the AT&T yellow pages. They had someone come out and give me a quote. Price paid was the quote. They showed up on time and did a good job. Referred by Frymire a large HVAC residential and commercial company been around about 40 years with a good reputation in the Dallas area.
In regard to painted on radiant barrier I was unable to locate any reliable studies that it really works. My personal opinion is that it is vodoo.
I do believe however that double sided radiant barrier panels 3/4 to 1" thick 4' x 8' panels installed in new high end homes is effective. However, once dust starts to accumulate over the years on the reflective surface of the aluminum, there will be a diminishing effect of even these.
Hope this helps. | |
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Teasip
join:2001-05-14
Plano, TX
| I just read a story at the WFAA website regarding the energy efficiency program through Oncor and how they may cover all or part of the costs of improving your residential energy efficiency. I would like to contact one of the local companies and at least get an idea as to cost for my 2100 sq. ft. residence here in Plano. | |
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KMB
@swbell.net | Re: So I want to get my attic insulated... Can you tell me which WFAA article on Oncor you saw? Had a friend who mentioned a similar energy efficiency program, but not sure how to find details or what kinds of costs it covers. Do you have contact info for the program? | |
| | | Coach P
join:2007-07-07
Plano, TX
| Re: So I want to get my attic insulated... We we got our first bill with the barrier being added. It was $10 less then June's bill. We didnt change anything on the thermostat and yes July was warmer than June.
So hey I can live with some savings...it will be interesting to see what August will bring.
I also looked back at last years bill for July and it was dramatically lower, but we didnt have the rain and was already at 100 temps. | |
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Teasip
join:2001-05-14
Plano, TX | Good information. Now I'm going to check my soffit vents to make sure that they are adequately open for my turbines. | |
| | Coach P
join:2007-07-07
Plano, TX
| Re: So I want to get my attic insulated... With our house layout the ridgevent is near the very front over our bedroom and the power vent is in the back of the house. We have like 30 soffit vents cut around to allow greater air flow.
I know they say dont mix but thats what Ameritex roofing recommended in our roof situation. And actually its only about 8 ft of ridgevent. They did remove the static vent that was just below where the ridge vent went. | |
| 
Guff
Premium
join:2001-12-30
CheckYourSix
| Just a little info for those inquiring about the radiant barrier coatings. Bottom line, they do work as advertised. First notice that most are made with reflective/metal particles, then there are some that use hollow spheres. Both are suspended in a paint coating for ease of application and uniformity when dried. The way they work is somewhat misleading, even the installers usually get this part wrong. What actually happens is the metal particles or hollow spheres form continous film. The metal particles plates, or, in other words, overlaps each other. The spheres lock into one another similar to what a styrofoam ice chest looks like, but more on a microscopic level. These "barriers' formed are very tight, with litle space between the particles.
Visualize a sponge, a brick and a block of marble. You can see the "porosity" or openess of the sponge, and somewhat less on the brick, and basically none on the marble. Compare these to grades of insulation and a radiant barrier coating would like the marble, a very light, tight, rigid film. It's the tightness of the film that let's it "radiate" heat without the bulk of traditional insulation. Most people including the guys putting it in think radiant barriers reflect heat like a mirror reflects light. Wrong analogy. The barrier film inhibits molecular friction caused by radiant energy. Radiant energy is what you feel when your outside on a cool day, but yet in the sunlight you feel warmer. Step into a shady area and you feel cold again. The air temperature changed little if any, and yet you feel the difference. That's radiant energy at work. It causes friction at the molecular level. Radiant barrier coatings inhibit this friction. Now, back to the analogy of sponge, brick, marble.
Sponge = standard insulation
Brick = blown in expanding insulation
Marble = radiant barriers
Coach P's estimates are fairly accurate, the sheet type barriers usually do better than the coatings, if they are installed tightly. I would actually recommend the use of both because the coating can be applied to every surface, whereas the sheets usually need to stay flat/rigid.
But a big part of the equation is controllable air movement or lack thereof in the attic. The air molecules need to be released in the summer and retained in the winter.
As a bit of trivia, these types of coatings have been around for ages. Where they got there start is in the remodelling/repainting of houses or buildings that had caught fire. The industry standard for sealing off the smoke damage on structural wood and siding has always been ready-mixed aluminum paint. The plating action of the metal particles locked out the smoke smell. Guess what part of the house has the most wood exposed to smoke? Well, since smoke rises, you'd have to say the upper part, ie. the attic. People started to notice that the structures painted with the aluminum had less heat transfer. And so a new market was born. | |
| | TexasPlus
join:2004-06-16
Bedford, TX
 ·Millenicom
 ·ViaTalk
| Re: So I want to get my attic insulated... Please supply some reference for your information. I have some serious doubts about the accuracy of much of your post.
Such as where you said
"I would actually recommend the use of both because the coating can be applied to every surface, whereas the sheets usually need to stay flat/rigid.
But a big part of the equation is controllable air movement or lack thereof in the attic. The air molecules need to be released in the summer and retained in the winter."
Two layers is only going to reflect the energy back and forth between them, and second you must have ventilation of the attic space year round or you going to have moisture/mold problems period, no if and or buts about that!
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"The world is a book; those who do not travel read but a single page." -St. Augustine | |
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Guff
Premium
join:2001-12-30
CheckYourSix
| Re: So I want to get my attic insulated... Easily done. Do what I did.
Go to google.com
Type in "radiant barriers facts"
Read through some of the more than 200,000 hits.
Take your time, you seem like the type that needs it.
As far as you're doubting of the accuracy of my post, you're entitled to do so. Although my nature is too flame you because in essence you are calling me a liar, I'll let my weaker side prevail and simply state that I claim none of the information I presented as facts, just a generalization of other people's "facts" posted on-line. As far as using both sheet-type and coating-type barriers, you misunderstood. Used together, use sheets on the roof deck, coating on joists. As far as air circulation goes, yes, you would have moisture problems without air circulation year round. Re-read what typed. "Controllable air movement or lack thereof". If you don't have good ventilation in the summer, you'll retain heat. Too much in the winter and you'll lose heat. This is regardless of your insulation status.
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"Gentlemen, prepare to defend yourselves!" | |
| | | | TexasPlus
join:2004-06-16
Bedford, TX
·Millenicom
·ViaTalk
| Re: So I want to get my attic insulated... said by Guff :Easily done. Do what I did. Go to google.com Type in "radiant barriers facts" Read through some of the more than 200,000 hits. Take your time, you seem like the type that needs it. As a matter of fact, I have been looking at this in depth for the last three years. 
But not only on line behind a monitor. I have crawled around many attics looking at good and bad RB installations, I have attend several seminars on the subject, and have talked with installers, and manufactures. I have educated myself enough that I can now easily spot the BS and separate a lot the myths from the facts. This self eduction on RB, and attic ventilation started out just for my own use, but is now aiding me in helping some customers, as I grow a new business.
said by Guff :I'll let my weaker side prevail and simply state that I claim none of the information I presented as facts, Fair enough.
said by Guff :As far as using both sheet-type and coating-type barriers, you misunderstood. Used together, use sheets on the roof deck, coating on joists. OK, but that is not the way it was originally presented, in light of the fact we were talking about retrofitting an existing structure. While "coating on joists" may have some small additional benefit on a new home with RB sheets on the roof deck, the return on investment on doing both as a retrofit just is not there. However I can see possible economics in mixing both types, IE foil sheets stapled to the underside rafters, with the foil facing the open air space in places it is easy to get to, and spray on coating where it is hard to get to. The manufactures info generally shows that the foil is about 20% more efficient than the spray coating.
said by Guff :As far as air circulation goes, yes, you would have moisture problems without air circulation year round. Re-read what typed. "Controllable air movement or lack thereof". If you don't have good ventilation in the summer, you'll retain heat. Too much in the winter and you'll lose heat. This is regardless of your insulation status. "What typed" by you was:
said by Guff :"The air molecules need to be released in the summer and retained in the winter." And there is a huge problem with the last part...if you retain the air, you will retain the moisture.
For example the folks that put bags over turbine ventilators in the winter time are very likely to retain enough moisture in their home to have future mold problems. The small amount of money saved on heating is far outweighed by the eventual costs in health problems and expense of creating a "sick building" through mold growth.
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"The world is a book; those who do not travel read but a single page." -St. Augustine | |
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Teasip
join:2001-05-14
Plano, TX | Interesting read. Thanks. | |
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