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espaeth
Digital Plumber
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
kudos:2
reply to funchords

Re: Comcast to spend 9 months Reinventing the Wheel

said by funchords:

(Sigh, ) true, but you keep changing the parameters of the little controlled test I was describing. Are you just trying to keep me in the "wrong?" That's not like you.
Not at all; I'm trying to get this particular conversation thread to arrive at the big picture conclusion. The local connection test is to prove that TCP on its own will roughly divide the the traffic equally among the sessions. You don't have to configure anything for that to happen, TCP responds equally to congestion at any segment in the network.

Given that each TCP session can consume (Total bandwidth / # of active TCP flows), once the transfer rate per session falls below the provisioned line rate of the edge devices those end-stations with multiple flows will be pushing more traffic than those with single flows. This is the problem; certain applications can leverage TCP's fairness to bully themselves into a better position on a congested network.


funchords
Hello
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Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:6
That something can happen doesn't mean that it is happening, is happening for long enough to matter. Unless I can get behind multiple modems on the same segment and frequencies, I can't measure it. And the whole thing seems beside the point.

We KNOW that the RST method is arbitrary ... so far beyond the bounds of "fairness" that it's laughable to be distracted by this discussion.

RED is better than we have now, for the exact reasons I have stated. Whether it's the "fairest," I don't have the ability to measure it to figure out whether or not I should care. But what you're advocating is also better than we have now.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
FCC Public Hearing on the Future of the Internet - Thursday, April 17th - Stanford Univ., Calif.


espaeth
Digital Plumber
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join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
kudos:2
said by funchords:

That something can happen doesn't mean that it is happening, is happening for long enough to matter. Unless I can get behind multiple modems on the same segment and frequencies, I can't measure it. And the whole thing seems beside the point.
In my opinion, this is the entire point. I don't believe for a second that Comcast would have made the capital investment in Sandvine that they did unless the problem was very real. I also don't think they'd continue to take the PR hits if it weren't a necessity.

said by funchords:

We KNOW that the RST method is arbitrary ... so far beyond the bounds of "fairness" that it's laughable to be distracted by this discussion.
You assume it's arbitrary, but without head-end data you can't actually prove that. While closing down sessions to try and achieve a more consistent number of TCP sessions per user probably isn't the best approach, it's an approach that gets results.

said by funchords:

RED is better than we have now, for the exact reasons I have stated.
Actually, for this scenario RED is awesome for the P2P users and blows for everyone else. The reason is simple: RED attempts to achieve fairness in throughput rates among TCP sessions. If you and I both have 400kbps upstream connections and I fire up a single FTP upload while you fire up a P2P app with 4 flows, when RED kicks in it will throttle my FTP session back because at a TCP level my connection is using 400kbps whereas your sessions are only 100kbps each. RED only tries to balance TCP flows in aggregate, without any consideration as to how much traffic originates from each IP. That's the challenge that ISPs face: TCP balances flows, but not traffic per end-station. To ensure that each subscriber gets a relatively even shot at the network takes a bit more work.


koitsu
Premium,MVM
join:2002-07-16
Mountain View, CA
kudos:23
reply to funchords

Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections

funchords See Profile, this is going to be an ugly battle.

»tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid ··· from=rss
--
Making life hard for others since 1977.
I speak for myself and not my employer/affiliates of my employer.


espaeth
Digital Plumber
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
kudos:2

1 edit
We synthetically generated TCP SYN packets at a rate of 100 SYN packets per second using the hping utility
Source: »systems.cs.colorado.edu/mediawik ··· nagement

Apparently using practical real-world traffic scenarios to test with is too much to ask. This synthetic test case would be known to the rest of the world as a "SYN flood".


funchords
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Yarmouth Port, MA
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reply to espaeth

Re: Comcast to spend 9 months Reinventing the Wheel

It's arbitrary, even by Comcast's own description of what they're doing (although they refuse to acknowledge that the word "arbitrary" describes it). Basically, according to their version of the story, when congestion goes up, they tear down users' P2P file-sharing upload connections.

RED monitors past IP headers? I'll have to go read about that again. Giving a subscriber an even shot at the network shouldn't require Deep Packet Inspection.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
FCC Public Hearing on the Future of the Internet - Thursday, April 17th - Stanford Univ., Calif.


espaeth
Digital Plumber
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join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
kudos:2
said by funchords:

RED monitors past IP headers?
Yep -- it needs to. TCP is the only protocol where you can be guaranteed that throwing away packets is a safe event. As such, RED will not discard anything except TCP packets.


funchords
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Yarmouth Port, MA
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said by espaeth:

said by funchords:

RED monitors past IP headers?
Yep -- it needs to. TCP is the only protocol where you can be guaranteed that throwing away packets is a safe event. As such, RED will not discard anything except TCP packets.
I guess it depends on the RED variant (there are a lot). I just reread Sally Floyd's "early" paper on RED. RED counts on TCP lost-packet behavior, or similar response by another protocol, in order to be effective. But Floyd doesn't limit dropping a packet using the RED algorithm to TCP.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
FCC Public Hearing on the Future of the Internet - Thursday, April 17th - Stanford Univ., Calif.


SameGearDiffCode

@comcast.net
reply to funchords

Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections

Comcast is not shutting down sandvine because of the FCC, all they are doing is code updates to the equipment. What those updates entail I guess we will soon find out as they roll updated code to the equipment this month.


funchords
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Yarmouth Port, MA
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Do they always roll out updated code before an FCC hearing? (The last update was about 7-10 days before the last hearing.)


funchords
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Yarmouth Port, MA
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4 edits
reply to funchords

Comcast and Pando Networks to create "P2P Users Bill of Righ

Today, Comcast Corporation and Pando Networks announced that they will lead the industry to create a "P2P Bill of Rights and Responsibilities" for users and ISPs. With an FCC hearing on Comcast's anti-peer-to-peer practices scheduled for later this week, this is hardly a surprise. Once again, Comcast makes another sweetheart-sounding deal, but at the wrong time, and with the wrong sweetheart.

It takes a special kind of arrogance for a company that sells Internet Access to team up with another company that sells Content Delivery and together decide what rights and responsibilities that the world's Internet users should have.

As in its earlier "deal" with BitTorrent, Inc., Comcast's announcement today doesn't change any of the facts it faces: in 2006, it assured Congress that network neutrality laws were not necessary, saying it would not "deny, delay, or degrade" its customers in order to deal with traffic congestion. Within a year it was caught secretly doing exactly that! Even after a long string of deceptive and deflective statements and tactics, Comcast continues to degrade their traffic today.

As was the case in the BitTorrent "deal," neither Comcast Corporation nor Pando Networks represents the millions of customers and other members of the Internet community who were impacted when Comcast secretly launched its anti-P2P attack.

Today's announcement comes less than 48 hours from the US Federal Communication Committee's public hearing at Stanford University. There, the FCC is scheduled to hear from two panels of experts followed by two hours of public testimony on the Comcast incident specifically as well as similar industry practices in general.

No doubt we will soon see Comcast and Pando Networking executives start to explain why today's "deal" signals that Network Neutrality regulation is not needed in the Broadband Marketplace.

Robert M. "Robb" Topolski

Edit: Response by Free Press (LINK)
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
FCC Public Hearing on the Future of the Internet - Thursday, April 17th - Stanford Univ., Calif.


koitsu
Premium,MVM
join:2002-07-16
Mountain View, CA
kudos:23
reply to funchords

Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections

Videos of the recent FCC Net Neutrality issue (re: Comcast's Sandvine usage) are here:

»www.vontv.net/events/080417/defa ··· h&clip=8

funchords See Profile is in Discussion 1.

I wanted to take a moment to thank Robb for his participation on the discussion panel. Everything you said is spot on -- I appreciated how (in my opinion) you seemed to stay focused on presenting the hard technical facts and not going down the overly vague route like some others did. You look nothing like how I imagined, though. My favourite quote of yours was this:
quote:
If you [FCC] have already come to the conclusion, as much of the technical community has, that this should not be on the Internet, and you already know that Comcast is doing it, then put a stop to that. You'll send a message to the rest of the community that you'll come looking for them.
Finally, I'm completely confused by George Ou. I still don't know what to make of his uncomfortably neutral standpoint -- he was technical, which I appreciated, but at the same time so much of what he said felt like it had an ulterior motive. It's like he has tons of stock in Sandvine or something, thus chooses to walk on eggshells...
--
Making life hard for others since 1977.
I speak for myself and not my employer/affiliates of my employer.


funchords
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Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:6
You're welcome, Koitsu! Thanks for the kind words!

said by koitsu:

You look nothing like how I imagined, though.
Was the leather vest too "junkyard dog?"

said by koitsu:

Finally, I'm completely confused by George Ou. I still don't know what to make of his uncomfortably neutral standpoint -- he was technical, which I appreciated, but at the same time so much of what he said felt like it had an ulterior motive. It's like he has tons of stock in Sandvine or something, thus chooses to walk on eggshells...
George thinks that he gets $1000 every time someone says "Bandwidth Hogs" or "Metered." Nobody knows why he thinks this. Ironically, his disease is related to Larry Lessig's disease -- Larry thinks he gets paid by the Powerpoint slide. (Larry's presentation was excellent! )

Seriously, George Ou is simple to sum up -- while he has a bias (as does everyone with a pulse), he does not have an interest in resolving his bias with the facts. When presented with facts that disagree with his views, George changes the subject or reverts to name calling. To George, "winning" means never having to say, "I see," or, "I've never thought of it that way before."
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon


ztmike
Mark for moderation
Premium
join:2001-08-02
Michigan City, IN

1 edit
reply to funchords
I thought this was funny..and reminded me of this thread..

This picture is taken of Konami's p2p solution for metal gear solid 4 beta for ps3/ they had the option to download from the official server or do it the bittorrent way..

(Konami is the publisher for mgs4)
»www.konami.com/
--
www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdYueIC1pjM

chewch99

join:2008-04-20
united state

1 edit
You know whats not really being mentioned is the people like me who are paying 90 dollars a month (Double the price of a basic connection) for Comcast Blast.

Comcast has no problem taking my extra money every month. However they have a big problem with me using the extra bandwidth that I PAY FOR!!!!!

Bottom line is don't give people 2MB upload speed, don't advertise it, and don't charge people extra for it if they can't use it.

Only two reasons I know for a customer paying extra for high upload.

1. Online Gaming
2. P2P filesharing

If you can't use one or both of those things then there is no point in paying for any extra bandwidth at all. Therefor Comcast is stealing by charging people extra for a service they can't use. Today it's P2P, whats next? Tomorrow I can't host a game on Xbox Live?


espaeth
Digital Plumber
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join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
kudos:2

1 recommendation

said by chewch99:

You know whats not really being mentioned is the people like me who are paying 90 dollars a month (Double the price of a basic connection) for Comcast Blast.
That's because most people understand that's not relevant.

said by chewch99:

Comcast has no problem taking my extra money every month. However they have a big problem with me using the extra bandwidth that I PAY FOR!!!!!
You're paying for extra speed, not extra bandwidth. Rate and quantity are two different things.

said by chewch99:

Only two reasons I know for a customer paying extra for high upload.

1. Online Gaming
2. P2P filesharing
Expand your horizons a bit, there's a number of reasons to want faster upload speeds. VPN access for working from home (writing an 8MB Visio back to a network share is a heck of a lot nicer at 2mbps up rather than 384kbps), getting better video quality from a SlingBox when you're on the road, or anyone who uploads content (ie, pictures) to a website on a regular basis are just a few additional examples.

Online gaming is a safe usage of your broadband connection -- always has been. The issue is finite vs infinite duration transfers.

It's not like this hasn't been discussed a few thousand times in the last few months...


funchords
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Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:6
I think chewch99's point is quite relevant as it applies to paying extra and getting nothing in return because the ISP decides they want to secretly prefer some traffic and degrade others.

To chewch99: I dumped my 8 Mbps/784 Kbps bump for the same reason you should probably dump Boost right now. Until they change their ways, you will continue to be cheated.

Espaeth is 100% about gaming. Boost won't help you in gaming at all. The key to great gameplay isn't bandwidth, it's latency.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon


MysticGogeta
The Robot Devil
Premium
join:2005-03-14
Katy, TX
said by funchords:

Espaeth is 100% about gaming. Boost won't help you in gaming at all. The key to great gameplay isn't bandwidth, it's latency.
Agreed. I think power boost scams people who don't know what it really is, to think that there connection is better then what it is.
--
Team Discovery-Join the fight


Anon123

@comcast.net
How is powerboost a scam? It's definitely nice when it kicks in to download the latest version of itunes... I always hear people bitch about it throwing off speed tests, so I'm left wondering if most people would like to see it go away?


funchords
Hello
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join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:6
I don't want to see it go away. To someone who doesn't download anything really large very often (most customers), the speed is both real and completely useful.

It does create an apples-to-oranges comparison when dealing with FIOS as a competitor. But that's only a problem if you like oranges but can only get the price of apples.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon

devnuller

join:2006-06-10
Cambridge, MA
reply to MysticGogeta
said by MysticGogeta:

Agreed. I think power boost scams people who don't know what it really is, to think that there connection is better then what it is.
Yeah, I'm one of those average to heavy users in the 95%ile of the Internet user base. I hate that they figured out a way to give me a substantial performance increase without additional cost to me. And the nerve that it works for 100% of my interactive Internet experience.

If they could only dumb down the network and give better performance to the minority of entitled users that congest my node. Damn Comcast! :^P


koitsu
Premium,MVM
join:2002-07-16
Mountain View, CA
kudos:23
reply to Anon123
said by Anon123 :

How is powerboost a scam? It's definitely nice when it kicks in to download the latest version of itunes... I always hear people bitch about it throwing off speed tests, so I'm left wondering if most people would like to see it go away?
Like funchords See Profile, I don't want to see it go away either. I do, however, want Comcast to be a bit more honest in their advertising about it. I don't want to see them advertising "30mbit!!!" (30 with PB, ~12-13 without) when the average is going to be around 11-12.

devnuller

join:2006-06-10
Cambridge, MA
said by koitsu:

I don't want to see it go away either. I do, however, want Comcast to be a bit more honest in their advertising about it. I don't want to see them advertising "30mbit!!!" (30 with PB, ~12-13 without) when the average is going to be around 11-12.
Do you have an example of this dishonest advertizing?


koitsu
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join:2002-07-16
Mountain View, CA
kudos:23
said by devnuller:

Do you have an example of this dishonest advertizing?
Sure, but the *entire* web page is in Flash, and it hides the menu bar, so there's no chance of getting you a URL for it.

They advertise "up to 16mbit/s" referring to the higher speed tier, which is likely outdated data since they've rolled out 30mbit. For the standard/lower tier, it's advertised as "up to 12mbit/s". PowerBoost is heavily mentioned.


funchords
Hello
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Yarmouth Port, MA
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1 recommendation

How to do capture the screen and save it:

1. Alt-Printscreen
2. Open Programs - Accessories - Paint
3. ctrl-v
4. Save As... JPEG (*.jpg)

Then you can upload the file here.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon


funchords
Hello
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join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:6

1 edit

1 recommendation

reply to funchords

Comcast and ____________, Sittin' in a Tree, K-I-S-S-I-S- .. uh?

Lewis Grizzard once said, "I have three ex-wives. I don't remember any of their names, I just call them all, 'Plaintiff'!"

You know this story. Comcast was blocking the BitTorrent protocol, which pissed off Vuze -- a commercial concern as they distributed video content that way.

When the heat was on, Comcast married BitTorrent -- shunning her disgraced sister Vuze. It was a shotgun wedding to be sure -- with the FCC holding the iron complete with shells in the chamber. When that failed to appease anger, Comcast hooked up with little-known P2P step-sister Pando -- another P2P sibling to both BitTorrent and Vuze.

Adding to this sordid tale is an even lesser-known P2P cousin, twice removed, who now joins our happy little P2PR family:

said by NewTeeVee :

For now the extent of [GridNetworks] working with Comcast, as it’s trumped up in the press release, is “collaboration with Comcast Corporation during NCTA Cable Show.” Of course, giants aren’t known for their quickness (or their willingness to disclose future plans).
Pando and GridNetworks are very similar. Both are server-assisted peer-to-peer. Neither one solves Comcasts' last-mile congestion problem (traffic to almost all other Comcast peers would be required to pass through the DOCSIS layer -- the upload bandwidth constraint on Cable networks).

Ferget the Bride. Jus' show me th' cake!

GridNetworks: Comcast Invested in Us, Too « NewTeeVee
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
HTTP is the new Bandwidth Hog...


funchords
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reply to funchords

Comcast Matter is Coming to a Close -- But Ramifications Ring On

The FCC will hold a hearing on network management and net neutrality July 22 at Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh, insiders told WASHINGTON INTERNET DAILY, a subscription newsletter. One thing the FCC is not likely to discuss is Comcast's interference with P2P uploads.

The FCC may explore practices of disclosure of service terms and capabilities -- or perhaps the successes or failure of American broadband as a whole. Unless the FCC wants to drag Comcast through the mud a third time, the commissioners will likely rule on the Comcast matter prior to this date so that it can hear on these other industry issues -- many which were brought forward in the debates over Comcast's behavior. Martin previously told students at Stanford Law School that he predicted that the FCC's decision would come prior to June 30th and would set "an important precedent going forward."

Carnegie Mellon University is the home of the Software Engineering Institute (SEI) and the United States Computer Emergency Readiness Team (US-CERT) as well as its own prestigious Computer Science school.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
HTTP is the new Bandwidth Hog...

cemetaree

join:2007-01-19
Dallas, TX

1 recommendation

reply to funchords

FCC Chair: Comcast Violated Open Access Ruled

See below link, comcast ordered to stop its practice of blocking.-- Provide details to the commission on the extent and manner in which the practice was been used.-- And to disclose to consumers details on future plans for managing its network going forward.

»www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ··· 047.html


Anon123

@comcast.net
reply to funchords

Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections

Interesting response to Karl's recent blog posting about the bandwidth apocalypse.

»www.michaelsinsight.com/2008/07/ ··· c-d.html

Project22a

join:2008-07-16
reply to funchords
I have a simple question, looking for a simple answer.

If I have Comcast and I use uTorrent, will enabling Protocol Encryption stop Comcast from throttling my torrents?