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funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:6
reply to eatnaders

Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections

The Azureus team has really been working on this.

»www.azureuswiki.com/index.php/Av···#Level_5


funchords
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join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:6
reply to funchords

Re: Something for eMule clients to try- improves Sandvine issues



ztmike
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join:2001-08-02
Michigan City, IN
Thanks for the updates, funchords, But what about people on Utorrent? I have been doing fine with seeding..i have been just leaving utorrent going after my download is done, i believe im on my 4th day seeding..which is kinda sad to have to leave it seeding that long just to reach a good ratio, MORE upload speed so i can quit seeding faster.

Q: Is Azureus really system sources hungry like i hear it is?


Madcap
Baby's on Fire
Premium
join:2004-06-26
Fpo, AP
I've never noticed Azureus eating system resources in large amounts.


ztmike
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Michigan City, IN
reply to funchords

Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections

Just tried out Azureus..Didn't like it, to much crap they force on you to download with the program. I'll stick to utorrent.

But i do applaud their efforts on isp's throttling to help their users out.


jig

join:2001-01-05
Hacienda Heights, CA
post back if you find utorrent offering a similar update hardening the encryption...


ztmike
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Michigan City, IN
jig, Best thing to do on utorrent now is download a torrent and just leave it seeding (dont restart utorrent)

Probably sound like a broken record there but it has worked for me since they put sandvine on my line. Its obvious comcast is admitted to their sandvine efforts and are not giving it up anytime soon.

I find it funny though no one seems to have it on their line where "Blast" is available. For those who don't have blast it will probably be on your line in due-time.


funchords
Hello
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join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:6
Do we know whether Blast!==DOCSIS3?


jig

join:2001-01-05
Hacienda Heights, CA
reply to ztmike
said by ztmike:

jig, Best thing to do on utorrent now is download a torrent and just leave it seeding (dont restart utorrent)

Probably sound like a broken record there but it has worked for me since they put sandvine on my line. Its obvious comcast is admitted to their sandvine efforts and are not giving it up anytime soon.
if you don't mind me asking, which version of utorrent are you using?

i'm not on comcast, i'm on TimeWarner/old adelphia. there seems to be some new type of seed filtering going on, say in the past month or so. considering how in bed these companies are in divvying up the clientèle, i can't help but think they'd collaborate on new technology. probably went for a volume pricing deal...


ztmike
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Michigan City, IN
reply to funchords
I heard Comcast is using Docsis 2 for (Blast!) areas..

Comcast is probably no where near a docsis 3 rollout..

I use Utorrent 1.6.1 (website where i get my torrents only accepts that version.) No higher version is allowed.

But what is weird..Just recently Whenever i start utorrent i now get the red question mark at the bottom..nothing on my system has changed for it to do that..so im sorta at a lost on that front..


EG
The wings of love
Premium
join:2006-11-18
Union, NJ
kudos:10
said by ztmike:

I heard Comcast is using Docsis 2 for (Blast!) areas..

F.W.I.W, I am on the Blast 16/2 speedtier at a DOCSIS 1.1 registration

crucialcolin

join:2004-09-12
Roseville, CA

1 edit
reply to funchords
arg this sandvine is starting to realy piss me off. Even the advanced iptables trick(Link) along with forced encryption is no longer working as of today.

I'm ready to cancel comcast and switch to the local telco but I'm sorta holding out hope that someone will come up with a permanent solution or our local telco will make fios avail on our block which is still dsl atm while neighboring blocks are on fiber.


NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
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San Jose, CA
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Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
said by crucialcolin:

I'm sorta holding out hope that someone will come up with a permanent solution or our local telco will make fios avail on our block which is still dsl atm while neighboring blocks are on fiber.
Does Verizon serve any part of Roseville? If not, no FiOS for you. Ever. FiOS is a Verizon product, which won't, ever, be delivered by AT&T (or, more likely in your case, Surewest).
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

crucialcolin

join:2004-09-12
Roseville, CA

1 edit
no its surewest I meant to say fiber since they either provide high speed via dsl(6meg/786k) or via fiber(10meg/20meg/50meg synchronous tiers).

We did get a notice from Surewest awhile back about an upgrade in the works by years end. Heres hoping its sooner since surrounding areas have been upgraded already


Roundboy
Premium
join:2000-10-04
Drexel Hill, PA
reply to crucialcolin
But as its been said before here, that only works on YOUR side of the connection. Comcast is sending these packets out to everyone...

You would need to do this, and all people you are connected to need to do this...
--
[spoiler]Steve the pirate DIES![/spoiler]


hobgoblin
Sortof Agoblin
Premium
join:2001-11-25
Orchard Park, NY
kudos:11
reply to crucialcolin
said by crucialcolin:

no its surewest I meant to say fiber since they either provide high speed via dsl(6meg/786k) or via fiber(10meg/20meg/50meg synchronous tiers).

We did get a notice from Surewest awhile back about an upgrade in the works by years end. Heres hoping its sooner since surrounding areas have been upgraded already
Yikes...thats expensive
--
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson


funchords
Hello
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join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:6
reply to crucialcolin
said by crucialcolin:

I'm ready to cancel comcast and switch to the local telco but I'm sorta holding out hope that someone will come up with a permanent solution or our local telco will make fios avail on our block which is still dsl atm while neighboring blocks are on fiber.
Hello,

Don't wait if you have acceptable options.

This is a game of "whack-a-mole" or "cat-and-mouse" between an ISP which has secretly deployed a severe interference technology that they won't acknowledge or support. That tells me that even if a work-around is found, Comcast will block it as soon as it becomes popular. While this is intellectually fascinating for me as a protocol geek, my goal as a Comcast HSI customer is Internet Access -- not to play hide-and-seek.

I said earlier in this thread, somewhere, that Sandvine has an interest in seeing Comcast succeed in this technology. However, Comcast has deployed it in such a disastrous manner that it doesn't work as advertised (or perhaps, it never worked as advertised). Sandvine promises that their technology will not harm the end-users' (ISP subscribers') experience. Either by design or mis-configuration, at Comcast -- the second largest USA ISP -- end users are being affected.

And not just heavy users -- my upload stream is 16 kB/s to 20 kB/s -- and over 50 percent of my connections get aborted by the RST flag.

So, don't wait. Please leave, and leave loudly. Make sure people know that you left COMCAST because they were using SANDVINE. I don't want one more ISP buying SANDVINE without knowing what is happening at COMCAST and getting SANDVINE to guarantee in writing that their product won't be tearing down end-users' connections in lieu of less invasive and damaging methods.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon USA
Are you affected by Comcast's RST forging? How to test it! -or- Read my original report.


funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:6
reply to funchords
said by funchords:

The Azureus team has really been working on this.

»www.azureuswiki.com/index.php/Av···#Level_5
A good blog entry on the Azureus developments:

www.fsckin.com/2007/09/18/the-real-fix-for-comcast-bittorrent-throttling/
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon USA
Are you affected by Comcast's RST forging? How to test it! -or- Read my original report.


funchords
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join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:6

2 edits
reply to ztmike
said by ztmike:

jig, Best thing to do on utorrent now is download a torrent and just leave it seeding (dont restart utorrent)

Probably sound like a broken record there but it has worked for me since they put sandvine on my line. Its obvious comcast is admitted to their sandvine efforts and are not giving it up anytime soon.
I'm doing some experiments with this, now.

I just tried your suggestion with Azureus using the OpenOffice 2.3.0 Win32 torrent and I found that all of my connections were killed by RST after switching to upload. I did not stop the torrent. That torrent had 600 seeders and about 30 peers, however. It is not a good test vehicle.

This was a good test vehicle: Click here for *.torrent file 27K Seeders 31K Leechers

Here were my results:

Test Results

Chart Showing Relationship of RST% and either Time or Relevant Peers


I found that I had no more and no less success than I've had previously -- about 40% of the connections were killed while seeding.

Are you seeing something different? Can you repeat my test and post your results? Can you define "worked" vs. "not worked" -- what is your criteria for success? Are you measuring the number of RST? Are you saying you can to reach your upload limit only if you do this?

Thanks in advance.

Robb

--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon USA
Are you affected by Comcast's RST forging? How to test it! -or- Read my original report.


ztmike
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join:2001-08-02
Michigan City, IN
Have you tried it using Utorrent? I don't use Azureus so i don't know that program.

Only thing i can say is, after a torrent download is done, i leave it seeding and it still maxes out my upload speed if i want it to.

This is using utorrent 1.6.1
--
"I am the worst president in US history, I'm either stupid or dumb most of the time, but people still believe me." George W. Bush


ztmike
Mark for moderation
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Michigan City, IN
I also have, Protocol Encryption Enabled and allow incoming legacy connections on, and UPnP port mapping on


funchords
Hello
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Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:6

1 edit
reply to funchords

Evidence: Comcast to Comcast P2P is also interfered with

I am attempting to download a legal file from a peer who is also a Comcast subscriber. The connection is killed by a forged/injected RST flag after 37 seconds.

68.41.21.xxx is c-68-41-21-xxx.hsd1.mi.comcast.net and is seeding a legal file
24.20.37.xxx is c-24-20-37-xxx.hsd1.or.comcast.net is me, trying to download said file

display filter: ((tcp.len > 0 and tcp.len < 256) or  tcp.flags.reset == 1 or tcp.flags.syn == 1) and (ip.addr eq 68.41.21.xxx and ip.addr eq 24.20.37.xxx) and (tcp.port eq xxxx and tcp.port eq xxxx)
 
No.     Time        Source                Destination           Protocol Info
     32 32.922528   68.41.21.xxx          24.20.37.xxx          TCP      3398 > 10941 [SYN] Seq=0 Len=0 MSS=1460
     33 32.922621   24.20.37.xxx          68.41.21.xxx          TCP      10941 > 3398 [SYN, ACK] Seq=0 Ack=1 Win=65535 Len=0 MSS=1460
     35 33.017417   68.41.21.xxx          24.20.37.xxx          BitTorrent Handshake
     36 33.072291   24.20.37.xxx          68.41.21.xxx          BitTorrent Handshake
     37 33.165332   68.41.21.xxx          24.20.37.xxx          BitTorrent Bitfield, Len:0x2e
     38 33.165387   24.20.37.xxx          68.41.21.xxx          BitTorrent Bitfield, Len:0x2e
     40 33.453781   24.20.37.xxx          68.41.21.xxx          BitTorrent Interested
     42 37.377668   24.20.37.xxx          68.41.21.xxx          BitTorrent Have, Piece (Idx:0x1)
     44 41.249107   68.41.21.xxx          24.20.37.xxx          BitTorrent Unchoke
     45 41.292664   24.20.37.xxx          68.41.21.xxx          BitTorrent Request, Piece (Idx:0x3,Begin:0x0,Len:0x4000)  Request, Piece (Idx:0x3,Begin:0x4000,Len:0x4000)
     74 46.386418   24.20.37.xxx          68.41.21.xxx          BitTorrent Request, Piece (Idx:0x3,Begin:0x8000,Len:0x4000)  Request, Piece (Idx:0x3,Begin:0xc000,Len:0x4000)
    124 58.505548   24.20.37.xxx          68.41.21.xxx          BitTorrent Request, Piece (Idx:0x3,Begin:0x10000,Len:0x4000)  Request, Piece (Idx:0x3,Begin:0x14000,Len:0x4000)
    174 68.222349   24.20.37.xxx          68.41.21.xxx          BitTorrent Request, Piece (Idx:0x3,Begin:0x18000,Len:0x4000)  Request, Piece (Idx:0x3,Begin:0x1c000,Len:0x4000)
    177 69.231258   68.41.21.xxx          24.20.37.xxx          TCP      3398 > 10941 [RST] Seq=85484 Len=0
    178 69.231281   68.41.21.xxx          24.20.37.xxx          TCP      3398 > 10941 [RST] Seq=97987 Len=0
    
The traceroute never leaves Comcast space:
.
.
  3     8 ms     7 ms    13 ms  GE-1-11-ur03.beaverton.or.bverton.comcast.net [68.87.218.89]
  4    22 ms     8 ms     8 ms  te-9-1-ur04.beaverton.or.bverton.comcast.net [68.87.216.50]
  5     8 ms     7 ms    11 ms  te-8-4-ur05.beaverton.or.bverton.comcast.net [68.87.216.101]
  6     7 ms     6 ms     7 ms  te-9-1-ur06.beaverton.or.bverton.comcast.net [68.87.216.98]
  7     *       15 ms     *     te-7-4-ar01.troutdale.or.bverton.comcast.net [68.87.216.106]
  8    19 ms    14 ms    13 ms  te-6-1-cr01.seattle.wa.cbone.comcast.net [68.86.72.73]
  9    33 ms    37 ms    33 ms  te-1-1-cr01.ogden.ut.cbone.comcast.net [68.86.68.49]
 10    42 ms    42 ms    55 ms  te-1-1-cr01.denver.co.cbone.comcast.net [68.86.68.45]
 11    52 ms    53 ms    52 ms  te-1-1-cr01.omaha.ne.cbone.comcast.net [68.86.68.41]
 12    71 ms    67 ms    66 ms  te-1-1-cr01.chicago.il.cbone.comcast.net [68.86.68.29]
 13    88 ms    79 ms    90 ms  te-1-1-cr01.cleveland.oh.cbone.comcast.net [68.86.68.21]
 14    84 ms    83 ms    80 ms  te-5-2-ar02.taylor.mi.michigan.comcast.net [68.86.72.30]
 15    84 ms    85 ms    83 ms  68.85.235.205
 16    84 ms    83 ms    83 ms  te-9-1-ar02.pontiac.mi.michigan.comcast.net [68.87.191.30]
 17    88 ms    85 ms    83 ms  te-9-2-ur02.auburnhills.mi.michigan.comcast.net [68.87.191.29]
 18    90 ms    85 ms    90 ms  te-9-2-ur02.rochestrhlls.mi.michigan.comcast.net [68.87.191.25]
 19    85 ms    85 ms    83 ms  te-9-1-ur03.royaloak.mi.michigan.comcast.net [68.87.191.21]
 20    85 ms    83 ms    83 ms  te-9-2-ur02.royaloak.mi.michigan.comcast.net [68.87.191.17]
 21    86 ms    85 ms    84 ms  te-9-1-ur03.warren1.mi.michigan.comcast.net [68.87.191.13]
 22    87 ms    85 ms    86 ms  ge-2-46-ur02.warren1.mi.michigan.comcast.net [68.87.184.61]
 23    92 ms    86 ms    86 ms  ge-0-1-ubr02.warren1.mi.michigan.comcast.net [68.87.184.50]
.
.
Conclusion: Evidence that even Comcast-to-Comcast RST forgeries are occurring!!
 

Related post Comcast to Comcast RST BitTorrent P2P Interference

--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon USA
Are you affected by Comcast's RST forging? How to test it! -or- Read my original report.


ztmike
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join:2001-08-02
Michigan City, IN
You saying you cant even download a torrent? Have you tried using utorrent 1.6.1?


funchords
Hello
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join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:6
said by ztmike:

You saying you cant even download a torrent? Have you tried using utorrent 1.6.1?
I can download from a non-Comcast host just fine.

However, if the peer is in Comcast-land, I can't download from him without P2P interference -- even though I'm also in Comcast-land -- and the path between us never leaves Comcast's network.

This is significant for several reasons:

1. It proves that the RST injector is within Comcast space and is not interference by a 3rd-party transit provider such as ATT, GBLX, or L3.

2. It indicates that Comcast is attacking P2P itself, rather than trying to contain it to lower-cost paths.

The intention of the Sandvine P2P Element is to try to move more P2P traffic "on network" when possible. It does this in such a way that the end-user experience is not affected.

If successful, the ISP can lower the expenses paid to 3rd party transit providers. The end-users are also kept happy because their P2P experience is not affected.

The marketing hype does not match the actual results.

Instead, Comcast or Sandvine have configured the devices in such a way that P2P uploading attempts are frustrated or eliminated -- regardless if the destination is on-network or not.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon USA
Are you affected by Comcast's RST forging? How to test it! -or- Read my original report.

slovokia

join:2005-01-31
Belmont, CA
Hi Funchords,

Thanks for the great job you have been doing on this issue. I suspect Comcast is limiting P2P uploading for other reasons besides the cost of P2P transit outside their network. P2P within the Comcast network still places strains on the shared upstream bandwidth available to cable modems. Unless Comcast is willing to continually split nodes or implement more efficient modulation schemes, each node must ration upload capacity between Comcast users on that node. P2P places a drain on that capacity. As Comcast deploys it's digital voice product, it will need to reserve more upstream capacity for that application. So Comcast is essentially rationing upstream bandwidth albeit in stupid ways.

Having recently switched to DSL because of this issue, I have come to believe that Cable ISP's will always be at a disadvantage in providing upstream bandwidth due to the architecture of their network and the fact that they reserve a small amount of shared bandwidth for upstream links relative to the bandwidth available on a coax cable. While DSL made similar design tradeoffs (asymmetry) in bandwidth utilization, at least the upstream bandwidth is not shared between users on the DSL link. So for heavy P2P users DSL or FIOS is probably the way to go. If ISP's developed pricing strategies that reflected the underlying economics of their technologies, upstream bandwidth would cost more from Cable ISP's than from DSL ISP's.


hobgoblin
Sortof Agoblin
Premium
join:2001-11-25
Orchard Park, NY
kudos:11
"So for heavy P2P users DSL or FIOS is probably the way to go"

Thinking about this logically I think I agree.

Its a win win situation for the cable company, sending the top 1% of users to the competition. Remember FIOS and DSL is still a shared connection further down the line.

Hob
--
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson


NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:12
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
said by hobgoblin:

Remember FIOS and DSL is still a shared connection further down the line.
Amen. I got stuck on an "exhausted router"; that being the aggregation router upstream from the DSLAM. SBC did fix my problem by switching me to a different router (with less congestion). I am sure that they have had to add a number of those aggregation routers, at some cost, to deal with the increased number of DSL customers.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

slovokia

join:2005-01-31
Belmont, CA
Hi Norman,

Since you live in San Jose you might check out Sonic.net DSL. They are very competent and have competitive pricing relative to AT&T for the first year. I'd recommend them to any Comcast users in California - you end up with better bandwidth for less money!


NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:12
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
said by slovokia:

Since you live in San Jose you might check out Sonic.net DSL. They are very competent and have competitive pricing relative to AT&T for the first year.
But, after that first year? I just checked them out, and I think I will stay with AT&T, thank you. They did fix the problem (back when they were calling themselves SBC).

FWIW, Comcast is cheaper than the regular Sonic prices.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum


funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:6
reply to slovokia
said by slovokia:

Since you live in San Jose you might check out Sonic.net DSL. They are very competent and have competitive pricing relative to AT&T for the first year. I'd recommend them to any Comcast users in California - you end up with better bandwidth for less money!
This past weeek, I was doing some testing with someone on Sonic. He -raved- about how great they are! I'm jealous!
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon USA
Are you affected by Comcast's RST forging? How to test it! -or- Read my original report.