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Mdoc
Ehh... munch munch... what's up, Doc?
Premium
join:2007-03-27
Sterling, VA
kudos:1
reply to Movieman420

Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections

said by Movieman420:

Offhand I'd say deception and forgery..few more I'm sure...but I'm no lawyer. (Slept at a holiday inn last night tho..lol)
...And I saved money by staying at home last night.


jig

join:2001-01-05
Hacienda Heights, CA
reply to telcolackey5

said by telcolackey5:

#1 p2p is a clear violation of almost all broadband providers ToS. It IS making the broadband connection the ISP sold YOU available to 3rd parties to profit from and millions of Internet users to utilize. For Comcast you are violating #9 and #14 of »www6.comcast.net/terms/use/

#2 The difference between speed and usage. I have 200amps in my home, but if I use the full 200amps 7x24 I am going to have to pay for it.
why not just use the word "use" instad of utilize?

anyway,

if i'm making my bandwidth availabel to others, then i guess all the free email suppliers are going to have to play too, right? they're using my bandwidth both ways, using it to help me send attachments and emails on the upload, and sending me adds on the download. guess we'll have to shut all those off too.

in reality, i'm using my bandwidth to help me get what i want to get as quickly as i can. period.

the seed vs. usage has been argued for years. they've advertised it as a usage, not as a speed. they don't have anything in their TOS or elsewhere that says we should expcect to not use it at max speed all the time. in fact, they offer it as "always on, always fast". when i signed up with the electric company, they made it clear that i would have a connection charge per month, and then a sliding scale usage fee each month. not so with comcast.

it's all bunk, and stems from the same type of thinking that led enron to it's demise, except we're still feeling the effects of what they created in the american bandwidth markets.

bandwidth is not electricity. or water, or gas, or sewage treatment.

modemslayer

join:2003-12-11
Spokane, WA
reply to telcolackey5

said by telcolackey5:

Although we both agree with payment model, I disagree with your technology assessment. All Internet delivery technologies use an over subscription model and each has ways to address capacity. If you are in a FiOS neighborhood and all users started 8mbs downloads at the same time, a circuit would hit capacity. Same with DSL, Cable, T1, DS3, OC3, OC12, OC192, etc.

Cable can combine and split nodes, allocate frequencies, channel bundle, etc. to address capacity.
All utilities oversubscribe to some extent. I've been at a company in Southern California where everyone is sent home on a summer day because of rolling blackouts. During a national emergency the phone lines can go kaput due to millions calling their loved ones at the same time. My problem with ISPs (mostly cable) is the level of oversubscription. They underbuild their networks, advertise big fat pipes, and then villify the folks who actually use them, all without even giving them the tools to help manage their usage. The electric company can tell me how many KWh I use during a billing period. My cell phone carrier can show me how many minutes I'm using in real-time. But good luck getting the cable company to tell me that info unless I go over the secret cap (which I won't, but that's not the point.)

All my utilities are completely above-board except my cable connection.


telcolackey5
The Truth? You can't handle the truth

join:2007-04-06
Death Valley, CA

said by modemslayer:

But good luck getting the cable company to tell me that info unless I go over the secret cap (which I won't, but that's not the point.)

All my utilities are completely above-board except my cable connection.
Agreed, but I think there are plenty of broadband companies that are or will be changing to that model. This way if people want to use more than 98% of everyone else, they can. It will just cost them.


telcolackey5
The Truth? You can't handle the truth

join:2007-04-06
Death Valley, CA
reply to jig

said by jig:

the seed vs. usage has been argued for years. they've advertised it as a usage, not as a speed.
Please quote your source.

said by jig:

they don't have anything in their TOS or elsewhere that says we should expcect to not use it at max speed all the time. in fact, they offer it as "always on, always fast".
Agreed on exact limits. There are clauses against using specific apps that are normally attributed to generating this much bandwidth however. See #9 and #14 in
»www6.comcast.net/terms/use/

modemslayer

join:2003-12-11
Spokane, WA
reply to telcolackey5

said by telcolackey5:

Agreed, but I think there are plenty of broadband companies that are or will be changing to that model. This way if people want to use more than 98% of everyone else, they can. It will just cost them.
...and conversely, the folks like my mom that use 2% of the bandwidth everyone else uses should pay something like 10$ per month. That's why I don't see companies like CC implementing a usage based pricing model - most people would see their bill go down. Right now it's win-win for the cable companies. Everyone is paying for a high usage model, but few are actually using it, and those that do are villified.

It's like a resturant advertising an all-you-can-eat buffet, knowing that most people don't eat that much, and those that do are quietly asked to leave (after being shown the fine print, which says 'all the average person would reasonably eat'.) And with Sandvine, it would be like the resturant taking away most of the prime rib when fat people walk in the door, claiming that they are holding the rest in reserve for the "normal" eaters.


jig

join:2001-01-05
Hacienda Heights, CA
reply to telcolackey5

comcast mentions 24/7 customer support, doesn't that mean i get 24/7 use? and, specifically, in the subscriber agreement, it mentions outages and how a customer with more than 24 hours of outage gets a credit, pro-rata, and the only thing it mentions is "month", so we are paying for 24/7 use, because the loss of that use is what we get credit for.

9 and 14 don't mention bittorrent



hobgoblin
Sortof Agoblin
Premium
join:2001-11-25
Orchard Park, NY
kudos:10

"comcast mentions 24/7 customer support, doesn't that mean i get 24/7 use? "

Yes the service is available for you to use at any time.

Hob
--
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson



ztmike
Mark for moderation
Premium
join:2001-08-02
Michigan City, IN

1 edit

Click for full size
Seeding here, at my max speed of 384upload

Nothing speical being used besides whats offered in utorrent, but, after my download was complete i just left them seeding.

(Just to be clear, Sandvine is in effect in my area)
--
"I am the worst president in US history, I'm either stupid or dumb most of the time, but people still believe me." George W. Bush


espaeth
Digital Plumber
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Vitelity VOIP
reply to jig

said by jig:

9 and 14 don't mention bittorrent
#14:
run programs, equipment, or servers from the Premises that provide network content or any other services to anyone outside of your Premises LAN (Local Area Network), also commonly referred to as public services or servers. Examples of prohibited services and servers include, but are not limited to, e-mail, Web hosting, file sharing, and proxy services and servers;


FairTriplePlay

@comcast.net
reply to ztmike

Same here...I have the Blast! 16/2 teir and can d/l and u/l at rated speeds with surges to 30/3. According to the RST script in this thread..Sandvine box has graced me with only a 20% avg RST rate...the affect of which is transparent. This is about principle..even tho I can still seed, CC has no right to forge ANYTHING that comes or goes from my computer(s)! End of story.



FairTriplePlay

@comcast.net
reply to funchords

Just read this:

»Comcast Defends Traffic Shaping

The good ol 'I can't neither confirm nor deny' routine...



NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:11
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
reply to jig

said by jig:

said by NormanS:

Forgery is a crime, not a tort.
just like murder and/or manslaughter. which is why we have wrongful death suits.

forgery would probably be considered a type of trespass, an intentional tort.
I consider a wrongful death suit, in the case of a murder, or manslaughter conviction, a form of "double jeopardy". Put the person in jail, or take his money. Not both. It may be legal, but it is just wrong, to take a person's liberty and their money.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

Movieman420

join:2007-08-28
reply to Mdoc

Looks like BitTorrent isn't the only target of CC's tatics.
Looks like Gnutella is getting hit as well.

»www.eff.org/deeplinks/2007/10/co···us-notes

If your gonna screw up, might as well be thorough I guess.



hobgoblin
Sortof Agoblin
Premium
join:2001-11-25
Orchard Park, NY
kudos:10

1 recommendation

reply to FairTriplePlay

"This is about principle..even tho I can still seed, CC has no right to forge ANYTHING that comes or goes from my computer(s)! End of story."

But you still give them money every month?

Principle...Yeah.

Hob
--
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson



ztmike
Mark for moderation
Premium
join:2001-08-02
Michigan City, IN

said by hobgoblin:

"This is about principle..even tho I can still seed, CC has no right to forge ANYTHING that comes or goes from my computer(s)! End of story."

But you still give them money every month?

Principle...Yeah.

Hob
For most people Comcast is their only option, so before you say something like that, think about it first.
--
"I am the worst president in US history, I'm either stupid or dumb most of the time, but people still believe me." George W. Bush


hobgoblin
Sortof Agoblin
Premium
join:2001-11-25
Orchard Park, NY
kudos:10

1 recommendation

"For most people Comcast is their only option, so before you say something like that, think about it first."

No most people have a slower speed option.

DSL, Dish, Dial Up.

Or a more expensive one.

Business Class, TI Telco.

Think about that first.

Hob
--
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson



EG
The wings of love
Premium
join:2006-11-18
Union, NJ
kudos:9

There is also always the option of not being online at all...

How did we ever survive in the past without it ??



ztmike
Mark for moderation
Premium
join:2001-08-02
Michigan City, IN
reply to hobgoblin

said by hobgoblin:

"For most people Comcast is their only option, so before you say something like that, think about it first."

No most people have a slower speed option.

DSL, Dish, Dial Up.

Or a more expensive one.

Business Class, TI Telco.

Think about that first.

Hob
Like i said not EVERYBODY has those options or has a ton of money for the internet.

Most people who have some form up broadband don't want to go back to dailup, as their comcast connection is at least faster than that.
--
"I am the worst president in US history, I'm either stupid or dumb most of the time, but people still believe me." George W. Bush


hobgoblin
Sortof Agoblin
Premium
join:2001-11-25
Orchard Park, NY
kudos:10

1 recommendation

"Most people who have some form up broadband don't want to go back to dailup, as their comcast connection is at least faster than that."

Well then they need to play nice in the sandbox.

"Like i said not EVERYBODY has those options or has a ton of money for the internet."

I think everyone that I have read about in this forum that got shut off found another way to access the net.

The fact that there are no other options is not Comcast's fault. Go Start an ISP...advertise yourself as unlimited...provide Bitching Customer service...charge 30 bucks a month....see how long before you go bankrupt.

Hob
--
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson



ztmike
Mark for moderation
Premium
join:2001-08-02
Michigan City, IN

said by hobgoblin:

"Most people who have some form up broadband don't want to go back to dailup, as their comcast connection is at least faster than that."

Well then they need to play nice in the sandbox.

"Like i said not EVERYBODY has those options or has a ton of money for the internet."

I think everyone that I have read about in this forum that got shut off found another way to access the net.

The fact that there are no other options is not Comcast's fault. Go Start an ISP...advertise yourself as unlimited...provide Bitching Customer service...charge 30 bucks a month....see how long before you go bankrupt.

Hob
What in the world are you talking about at your ending paragraph? lol, I'm pretty sure someone who can't afford satellite or t1 service can't start an ISP..seriously man wakeup and stop defending CC it looks pathetic.

You don't even work for them, so why even do it?
--
"I am the worst president in US history, I'm either stupid or dumb most of the time, but people still believe me." George W. Bush


hobgoblin
Sortof Agoblin
Premium
join:2001-11-25
Orchard Park, NY
kudos:10

"What in the world are you talking about at your ending paragraph? lol, I'm pretty sure someone who can't afford satellite or t1 service can't start an ISP..seriously man wakeup and stop defending CC it looks pathetic.

You don't even work for them, so why even do it?"

I see...not a discussion forum....Its a bitching forum.

We just all fall in line behind you to whine.

Pissing about a company that serves MILLIONS of customers of course is not pathetic.

Hob
--
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson



EG
The wings of love
Premium
join:2006-11-18
Union, NJ
kudos:9

I think that hob's last paragraph drives a point home !



ztmike
Mark for moderation
Premium
join:2001-08-02
Michigan City, IN

said by EG:

I think that hob's last paragraph drives a point home !
If it actually made sense..

CC has record profits, and they treat their customers like pure shit, and they aren't cheap.

aka: "BMW Vs. Hyundai"

It's like having a buggati veryron and the people at the drag track says you can't run it there due to its power.
--
"I am the worst president in US history, I'm either stupid or dumb most of the time, but people still believe me." George W. Bush


EG
The wings of love
Premium
join:2006-11-18
Union, NJ
kudos:9

4 edits

said by ztmike:

If it actually made sense..
I think that "making sense" is subjective


espaeth
Digital Plumber
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Vitelity VOIP

1 recommendation

reply to ztmike

If Comcast is so horrible then it shouldn't be hard for another high-speed ISP to come in and claim their user base. Fixed wireless installations are pretty cheap to setup, all you need is the right permits and some access circuits and you're in business.

Upstream contention is a problem for cable operators, it's always been that way and will continue to be that way for quite some time to come. You can bitch about it all you want but you can't change the facts of the situation. Either limits need to be put in place on upstream channel usage, or you need to get more comfortable with coughing up more than $42.95/mo so that upgrades can be funded.

If you *really* believe in the BitTorrent concept, put your money where your mouth is and pony up $10-$15/mo for a virtual server in a data center to move your content. Downloading your stuff from there is going to put a heck of a lot less load on the upstream channel of your local plant and you'll be able to seed faster out of a DC. Of course, if you do this then you'll have a working solution which will give you one less thing to bitch about.

-Eric



jig

join:2001-01-05
Hacienda Heights, CA
reply to espaeth

said by espaeth:

Examples of prohibited services and servers include, but are not limited to, e-mail, Web hosting, file sharing, and proxy services and servers;
when i run a bittorrent client i'm not running a file sharing server or services. unless you mean to say that me using gmail is against Comcast's TOS.

when i run my bittorrent client, all i'm doing is taking advantage of someone else's tracker services in order to get the file i want.


jig

join:2001-01-05
Hacienda Heights, CA
reply to NormanS

said by NormanS:

I consider a wrongful death suit, in the case of a murder, or manslaughter conviction, a form of "double jeopardy". Put the person in jail, or take his money. Not both. It may be legal, but it is just wrong, to take a person's liberty and their money.
i hear you, and it's a reasonable position.... but i don't feel that way. in the case where someone is actually convicted, i think their money should be there for the taking. when someone is specifically exonerated, i could be arm twisted into agreeing that they shouldn't be civily liable, because it IS a second bite at at apple already chewed. but when the criminal case has no judgment on the merits, or there is no criminal case, i have no problem with the new civil trial.

the problem is that every criminal case is tried by a civil servant. when the defendant can throw a billion $$s at the other side, it really isn't fair, and the result isn't always justice. maybe allowing the civil suit equalizes the playing field a bit.


teksimple

@hawaiiantel.net
reply to espaeth

WoW, Espaeth. Do TELL! Please point us to the hosting provider that will allow us to to run a BitTorrent client on a virtual server for $15.00 a month!



espaeth
Digital Plumber
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Vitelity VOIP
reply to jig

You seem to have missed the part that says that provide network content or any other services to anyone outside of your Premises LAN (Local Area Network). When you register your client with the tracker, you are advertising that you are available to provide content.