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FairTriplePlay

@comcast.net
reply to ztmike

Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections

Same here...I have the Blast! 16/2 teir and can d/l and u/l at rated speeds with surges to 30/3. According to the RST script in this thread..Sandvine box has graced me with only a 20% avg RST rate...the affect of which is transparent. This is about principle..even tho I can still seed, CC has no right to forge ANYTHING that comes or goes from my computer(s)! End of story.


FairTriplePlay

@comcast.net
reply to funchords
Just read this:

»Comcast Defends Traffic Shaping

The good ol 'I can't neither confirm nor deny' routine...


NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:12
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
reply to jig
said by jig:

said by NormanS:

Forgery is a crime, not a tort.
just like murder and/or manslaughter. which is why we have wrongful death suits.

forgery would probably be considered a type of trespass, an intentional tort.
I consider a wrongful death suit, in the case of a murder, or manslaughter conviction, a form of "double jeopardy". Put the person in jail, or take his money. Not both. It may be legal, but it is just wrong, to take a person's liberty and their money.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

Movieman420

join:2007-08-28
reply to Mdoc
Looks like BitTorrent isn't the only target of CC's tatics.
Looks like Gnutella is getting hit as well.

»www.eff.org/deeplinks/2007/10/co···us-notes

If your gonna screw up, might as well be thorough I guess.


hobgoblin
Sortof Agoblin
Premium
join:2001-11-25
Orchard Park, NY
kudos:11

1 recommendation

reply to FairTriplePlay
"This is about principle..even tho I can still seed, CC has no right to forge ANYTHING that comes or goes from my computer(s)! End of story."

But you still give them money every month?

Principle...Yeah.

Hob
--
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson


ztmike
Mark for moderation
Premium
join:2001-08-02
Michigan City, IN
said by hobgoblin:

"This is about principle..even tho I can still seed, CC has no right to forge ANYTHING that comes or goes from my computer(s)! End of story."

But you still give them money every month?

Principle...Yeah.

Hob
For most people Comcast is their only option, so before you say something like that, think about it first.
--
"I am the worst president in US history, I'm either stupid or dumb most of the time, but people still believe me." George W. Bush


hobgoblin
Sortof Agoblin
Premium
join:2001-11-25
Orchard Park, NY
kudos:11

1 recommendation

"For most people Comcast is their only option, so before you say something like that, think about it first."

No most people have a slower speed option.

DSL, Dish, Dial Up.

Or a more expensive one.

Business Class, TI Telco.

Think about that first.

Hob
--
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson


EG
The wings of love
Premium
join:2006-11-18
Union, NJ
kudos:10
There is also always the option of not being online at all...

How did we ever survive in the past without it ??


ztmike
Mark for moderation
Premium
join:2001-08-02
Michigan City, IN
reply to hobgoblin
said by hobgoblin:

"For most people Comcast is their only option, so before you say something like that, think about it first."

No most people have a slower speed option.

DSL, Dish, Dial Up.

Or a more expensive one.

Business Class, TI Telco.

Think about that first.

Hob
Like i said not EVERYBODY has those options or has a ton of money for the internet.

Most people who have some form up broadband don't want to go back to dailup, as their comcast connection is at least faster than that.
--
"I am the worst president in US history, I'm either stupid or dumb most of the time, but people still believe me." George W. Bush


hobgoblin
Sortof Agoblin
Premium
join:2001-11-25
Orchard Park, NY
kudos:11

1 recommendation

"Most people who have some form up broadband don't want to go back to dailup, as their comcast connection is at least faster than that."

Well then they need to play nice in the sandbox.

"Like i said not EVERYBODY has those options or has a ton of money for the internet."

I think everyone that I have read about in this forum that got shut off found another way to access the net.

The fact that there are no other options is not Comcast's fault. Go Start an ISP...advertise yourself as unlimited...provide Bitching Customer service...charge 30 bucks a month....see how long before you go bankrupt.

Hob
--
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson


ztmike
Mark for moderation
Premium
join:2001-08-02
Michigan City, IN
said by hobgoblin:

"Most people who have some form up broadband don't want to go back to dailup, as their comcast connection is at least faster than that."

Well then they need to play nice in the sandbox.

"Like i said not EVERYBODY has those options or has a ton of money for the internet."

I think everyone that I have read about in this forum that got shut off found another way to access the net.

The fact that there are no other options is not Comcast's fault. Go Start an ISP...advertise yourself as unlimited...provide Bitching Customer service...charge 30 bucks a month....see how long before you go bankrupt.

Hob
What in the world are you talking about at your ending paragraph? lol, I'm pretty sure someone who can't afford satellite or t1 service can't start an ISP..seriously man wakeup and stop defending CC it looks pathetic.

You don't even work for them, so why even do it?
--
"I am the worst president in US history, I'm either stupid or dumb most of the time, but people still believe me." George W. Bush


hobgoblin
Sortof Agoblin
Premium
join:2001-11-25
Orchard Park, NY
kudos:11
"What in the world are you talking about at your ending paragraph? lol, I'm pretty sure someone who can't afford satellite or t1 service can't start an ISP..seriously man wakeup and stop defending CC it looks pathetic.

You don't even work for them, so why even do it?"

I see...not a discussion forum....Its a bitching forum.

We just all fall in line behind you to whine.

Pissing about a company that serves MILLIONS of customers of course is not pathetic.

Hob
--
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson


EG
The wings of love
Premium
join:2006-11-18
Union, NJ
kudos:10
I think that hob's last paragraph drives a point home !


ztmike
Mark for moderation
Premium
join:2001-08-02
Michigan City, IN
said by EG:

I think that hob's last paragraph drives a point home !
If it actually made sense..

CC has record profits, and they treat their customers like pure shit, and they aren't cheap.

aka: "BMW Vs. Hyundai"

It's like having a buggati veryron and the people at the drag track says you can't run it there due to its power.
--
"I am the worst president in US history, I'm either stupid or dumb most of the time, but people still believe me." George W. Bush


EG
The wings of love
Premium
join:2006-11-18
Union, NJ
kudos:10

4 edits
said by ztmike:

If it actually made sense..
I think that "making sense" is subjective


espaeth
Digital Plumber
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
kudos:2

1 recommendation

reply to ztmike
If Comcast is so horrible then it shouldn't be hard for another high-speed ISP to come in and claim their user base. Fixed wireless installations are pretty cheap to setup, all you need is the right permits and some access circuits and you're in business.

Upstream contention is a problem for cable operators, it's always been that way and will continue to be that way for quite some time to come. You can bitch about it all you want but you can't change the facts of the situation. Either limits need to be put in place on upstream channel usage, or you need to get more comfortable with coughing up more than $42.95/mo so that upgrades can be funded.

If you *really* believe in the BitTorrent concept, put your money where your mouth is and pony up $10-$15/mo for a virtual server in a data center to move your content. Downloading your stuff from there is going to put a heck of a lot less load on the upstream channel of your local plant and you'll be able to seed faster out of a DC. Of course, if you do this then you'll have a working solution which will give you one less thing to bitch about.

-Eric


jig

join:2001-01-05
Hacienda Heights, CA
reply to espaeth
said by espaeth:

Examples of prohibited services and servers include, but are not limited to, e-mail, Web hosting, file sharing, and proxy services and servers;
when i run a bittorrent client i'm not running a file sharing server or services. unless you mean to say that me using gmail is against Comcast's TOS.

when i run my bittorrent client, all i'm doing is taking advantage of someone else's tracker services in order to get the file i want.


jig

join:2001-01-05
Hacienda Heights, CA
reply to NormanS
said by NormanS:

I consider a wrongful death suit, in the case of a murder, or manslaughter conviction, a form of "double jeopardy". Put the person in jail, or take his money. Not both. It may be legal, but it is just wrong, to take a person's liberty and their money.
i hear you, and it's a reasonable position.... but i don't feel that way. in the case where someone is actually convicted, i think their money should be there for the taking. when someone is specifically exonerated, i could be arm twisted into agreeing that they shouldn't be civily liable, because it IS a second bite at at apple already chewed. but when the criminal case has no judgment on the merits, or there is no criminal case, i have no problem with the new civil trial.

the problem is that every criminal case is tried by a civil servant. when the defendant can throw a billion $$s at the other side, it really isn't fair, and the result isn't always justice. maybe allowing the civil suit equalizes the playing field a bit.


teksimple

@hawaiiantel.net
reply to espaeth
WoW, Espaeth. Do TELL! Please point us to the hosting provider that will allow us to to run a BitTorrent client on a virtual server for $15.00 a month!


espaeth
Digital Plumber
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
kudos:2
reply to jig
You seem to have missed the part that says that provide network content or any other services to anyone outside of your Premises LAN (Local Area Network). When you register your client with the tracker, you are advertising that you are available to provide content.


jig

join:2001-01-05
Hacienda Heights, CA
said by espaeth:

You seem to have missed the part that says that provide network content or any other services to anyone outside of your Premises LAN (Local Area Network). When you register your client with the tracker, you are advertising that you are available to provide content.
i'm not providing services, and i'm not providing content. i'm getting the content from someone else who is providing it to everyone in the swarm. we are all using services provided by whoever is running the tracker.

if you think i am providing network content, then, under that same definition of providing network content, i can't send an email or email attachment to anyone outside my LAN without running afoul of the TOS, which would suck balls. i talk to those jerks too much as it is...


espaeth
Digital Plumber
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
kudos:2
reply to teksimple
said by teksimple :

WoW, Espaeth. Do TELL! Please point us to the hosting provider that will allow us to to run a BitTorrent client on a virtual server for $15.00 a month!
Shop around a bit -- as long as you're looking for services for legal uses of P2P you shouldn't have any problems finding a host willing to provide you with service. I rented a VPS last year for seeding CentOS ISOs before I ended up renting an unmetered server to setup a CentOS mirror instead.


NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:12
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC

1 recommendation

reply to jig
said by jig:

i'm not providing services, and i'm not providing content. i'm getting the content from someone else who is providing it to everyone in the swarm. we are all using services provided by whoever is running the tracker.
If you are using BitTorrent, you are uploading, as well as downloading. When you are uploading, you are serving content to everyone else in the swarm. Everybody in a torrent is serving content to everybody else. That is the nature of BitTorrent. This is why you have to put pinholes through your firewall for a BitTorrent client to work. So your BT client can serve content to another BT downloader. BT is a distributed service.
if you think i am providing network content, then, under that same definition of providing network content, i can't send an email or email attachment to anyone outside my LAN without running afoul of the TOS, which would suck balls. i talk to those jerks too much as it is...
When you send email, you are not serving content. People don't connect to your computer in order for them to get email from you.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum


Anon21

@mindspring.com
reply to funchords
Could the method being used by Comcast be considerd, technically, a "Denial of Service".

If they simply throttled connections, or prevented them, then that is one thing.

But modifying or creating deliberate packets that are accepted by the client (if that is what they are doing), could actually be considered a DOS attack?

See this link, and read the Description section...

»www.cert.org/tech_tips/denial_of···e.html#1

"...attempts to disrupt connections between two machines, thereby preventing access to a service"

I would be curious if the above is true, that this could technically be a Denial of Service, rather than a limit on service.


NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:12
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC

1 edit
said by Anon21 :

Could the method being used by Comcast be considerd, technically, a "Denial of Service".
I suppose, by sending my BT client forged RST packets, as a non-Comcast customer, one could say that I am being denied service.

OTOH, the Comcast TOS does prohibit their users from providing service to non-members of their customer households; and I am not a member of a Comcast customer household. I expect that anything Comcast does to prevent their customers from violating their TOS would not be a "Denial of Service" to anybody.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

crucialcolin

join:2004-09-12
Roseville, CA
reply to funchords
Its not just bittorent. Lately I have been noticing RST resets showing up in my firewall logs when using FTP to upload files to any non Comcast ip(including my web hosting server at a colo place). It seems to kick in if uploading/downloading anything above 1meg in size and eventually causes the ftp connection to be lost if uploading continues(usually around 2megs). It's extremely annoying
--
»www.colinkelly.org


jig

join:2001-01-05
Hacienda Heights, CA
reply to NormanS
said by NormanS:

If you are using BitTorrent, you are uploading, as well as downloading. When you are uploading, you are serving content to everyone else in the swarm. Everybody in a torrent is serving content to everybody else. That is the nature of BitTorrent. This is why you have to put pinholes through your firewall for a BitTorrent client to work. So your BT client can serve content to another BT downloader. BT is a distributed service.

When you send email, you are not serving content. People don't connect to your computer in order for them to get email from you.


if they meant serving content, why didn't they say that instead of providing services? people (google) do connect to my computer in order to get email and other data from me (gchat). and what if i run an email filter in outlook or whatever client i use that automatically generates a reply when certain people send me messages with certain content? that meets your definition, and i'm not running a server or providing network services.

no matter what i'm doing, surfing, email, bittorrent, whatever, i'm always uploading as well as downloading. always. i'm uploading to facilitate getting what i want, email, a web page, a forum remark, a torrent file.... and it's exactly the same thing when i'm in a swarm. i'm uploading data to facilitate getting data sent to me, and it's all part of one process. distinguishing bittorrent as a process just because the overhead is more than what is required for a web page request is, potentially, valid, but the TOS you mention don't make it valid. i'm not providing services, certainly not in the aggregate, and i'm not running a server, i'm explicitly running a client. running my BT client is closer to running an email client than running a server, even if all we're doing is comparing data out/data in.
--
A man compounded of law and gospel is able to cheat a whole country with his religion and then destroy them under color of law. -Ben Franklin


bhagwan

@vircom.net
reply to funchords
Glad I stuck with DSL all these years. A friend on mine who always loved his CC is now asking me about DSL. Man they really stepped in it. It was bad enough that their cable TV sucked, now this. Ha-Ha


NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:12
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC

1 recommendation

reply to jig
said by jig:

if they meant serving content, why didn't they say that instead of providing services?
Because "serving content" IS providing a service.
people (google) do connect to my computer in order to get email...
No. People using Google DO NOT connect to your computer to get email from you. If you are using GMail to send them email, you connect to Google to send your email, and the recipient connects to Google to receive your email. Google, not you, is providing the service.
...and other data from me (gchat).
Not having used "gchat", I don't know how it works. Using Windows Live Messenger (mostly), Yahoo! Messenger, and AOL Instant Messenger, you would connect to their respective servers to send your IM data, and the recipients of those message would, likewise, connect to the IM servers. Again, the IM provider, not you, is running the service.
...and what if i run an email filter in outlook or whatever client i use that automatically generates a reply when certain people send me messages with certain content?
I hope that you are not running auto responders. Technically, auto responders normally go through your ISP, or ESP mail servers, so they, not you, are providing the service. But auto responders are bad, unless they are configured to only send autoresponses to email addresses in your address book. Backscatter. Reportable as abuse.
...that meets your definition, and i'm not running a server or providing network services.
No, it does not meet my definition. A service is some application you run on your computer, which a remote computer has to connect with to get data. When you send email, you send it through somebody else' service, you don't provide your own service.
no matter what i'm doing, surfing, email, bittorrent, whatever, i'm always uploading as well as downloading. always.
Which is why I choose my words carefully. Uploading is not providing a service. Making data available for download from your computer is providing a service. BitTorrent makes data available for download from your computer. A BT client does not push data to a server, as does a web browser (using the HTTP "POST" command), or an email client (using the SMTP "SEND" command); rather, it announces that it has certain pieces of the file in the tracker available for download, and waits for the other BT clients to request specific pieces of the file (same as the HTTP "GET" command your client would send to a server, or the corresponding NNTP/POP3/IMAP commands for downloading news articles and email).
i'm uploading to facilitate getting what i want, email, a web page, a forum remark, a torrent file....
Try to understand, when you upload data to a server, you ARE NOT offering a service. HTTP, SMTP, NNTP uploads are initiated from your computer to a server. BitTorrent uploads are initiated by a remote client to a server; if your BT client is offering the pieces of the file, it is acting as a server. The key is: Who initiates the file transfer? Whey you initiate an upload, it is not the same thing as when a remote computer initiates a download from your computer.
and it's exactly the same thing when i'm in a swarm.
No, sir, it is not! You are not initiating an upload to another server, another client is initiating a download from you.

You don't forward ports to surf the web, or send email, or even to upload/download files from a remote FTP server.

You do forward ports to run a BitTorrent client. You forward ports to make it possible for remote client to download data from your computer.
i'm uploading data to facilitate getting data sent to me, and it's all part of one process. distinguishing bittorrent as a process just because the overhead is more than what is required for a web page request is, potentially, valid, but the TOS you mention don't make it valid. i'm not providing services, certainly not in the aggregate, and i'm not running a server, i'm explicitly running a client. running my BT client is closer to running an email client than running a server, even if all we're doing is comparing data out/data in.
Running a BT client is exactly the same as running a mail server. I run a mail server. I forward ports through my router to make it possible to run my mail server. But I don't let other people download email from my mail server.

I run a BitTorrent client (currently BitTornado T-0.3.18). I forward ports through my router to make it possible to run my mail server. But I do allow other people to download pieces of the current file I am downloading from my BT client; which is acting exactly the same as my mail server; with the modest exception that nobody else on the Internet has an email account on my mail server, so, unlike my BT client, my mail server is not providing a service outside of my premises.

BitTorrent clients do not push/pull data, as other clients do. BitTorrent clients pull data, as any other client does, but they also present data to be pulled, as any other server does.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum


NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:12
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC

2 edits

1 recommendation

reply to bhagwan
said by bhagwan :

Glad I stuck with DSL all these years. A friend on mine who always loved his CC is now asking me about DSL. Man they really stepped in it. It was bad enough that their cable TV sucked, now this. Ha-Ha
Be careful. AT&T, which operates three DSL services (AT&T Worldnet DSL, AT&T FastAccess (formerly Bellsouth FastAccess), and at&t Yahoo! HSI (formerly SBC Yahoo! DSL Service)), has announced plans intent to implement a content control system to keep pirated copyright material off of their networks. Sandvine technology sounds like it is cable oriented (installed at the CMTS); but I am sure that something similar could be installed at DSLAMs, or aggregation routers.

They haven't done so, yet, probably because nobody has developed the exact technology to work as they say they want. That doesn't mean that it can't, or won't happen.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum